Okay, I wanted more opinions on this. My mom got this email and sent it to me:


'Twas the month before Christmas when all through our
land, Not a Christian was praying nor taking a stand.

Why the PC Police had taken away,
The reason for Christmas - no one could say.

The children were told by their schools not to sing,
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.

It might hurt people's feelings, the
teachers would say December 25th is just a " Holiday".

Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and
credit Pushing folks down to the floor just to get at it!

CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod
Something was changing, something quite odd!

Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa In hopes to
sell books by Franken & Fonda.

As Targets are hanging their trees upside down, At
Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.

At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears You won't
hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.

Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-is-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.

Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen On
Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Hillary Clinton !

At the top of the Senate, there arose
such a clatter To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.

And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith,
Forbidden to speak, of salvation and grace.

The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.

So as you celebrate "Winter Break" under your
"DreamTree" Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.


Choose your words carefully, choose what you say

I would rather say Happy whatever for each holiday then just say "Happy Holidays"
If people get so offended by saying "Merry Chirstmas" Don't they know that some people get offended if you say Happy Holidays? What do you guys think?

In the stores where they say happy holidays, I ask them "what holidays"
And I won't just leave, I make them tell me exactly what are they wishing me. Yes I am a pain

Don't most people get time off work during Christmas? Y'know, "holidays".

There is a Christian Church about every four blocks or so in every American city, town, or village...

Once Thanksgiving is over, I will begin celebrating the birth of my Savior. If that offends anybody, well there is a lot that offends me. One of the things is HalGivingChristYear. Could we not start one until the other is over?

It is Merry Christmas for this family. I don't care how great a deal Wal-Mart (or any store) has this year but if I hear Happy Holidays, I will leave, like I did last year, and let the manager know why. I miss the children's Christmas programs, like we had when I was in school. Even the public schools could show a manger back then. I really think that if we cannot say Christmas, then there should not be a so called Christmas break - oh wait, that has now changed to Holiday break. I guess it is pick your holiday time now.

I think times should go back to the way the use to be... before there were issues of people being offended about every little thing...
Because you know what... They are OFFENDING me with all their Bull Sh!t, all their whining and crying, all the complaining about having their feelings being hurt... oh boohoo!!
They should grow up, mind their business, celebrate their holidays the way they want and let everyone else enjoy theirs the way they wish to...
Stupid pathetic people so worried about "their preferences" not giving a crap about anyone else's... so HOHOHO Merry Christmas!!

I think the meaning of Christmas has been lost in the masses. Big corporations and money hungrey businesses is the way, and many people buy it in the masses. I hate, I do not use that word much but I hate what it has done to Christmas.

I wish we would go back to the days where we all knew the true meaning of Christmas and celebrate with family.

Akaetrue, just want to say way to go. Love it.

By the way, Merry Christmas to everybody here. (; It is about celebration and our human family.

Joe

Merry Christmas, Happy Easter and be sure to wear the red, white and blue and wave your flag on July 4! And if that offends anybody, tough! "Diversity" , "Sensitivity" and "Inclusiveness" are just a bunch of nonsense, made-up words that have no place in my country!

How ironic... These very stores that took out Christ from the Christmas holiday are very glad to take the money of those of us who do celebrate Christmas. There are even very many people who celabrate Christmas, but don't believe in Christ. What is that? Ignorance I tell you!

in the stores where they say happy holidays, I ask them "what holidays"
and I won't just leave, I make them tell me exactly what are they wishing me. yes I am a pain
Make them, in the stores, understand the trapping of what they are trying to sell us. If they don't acknowledge the purpose of the holiday, then try shopping somewhere else. This isn't supposed to be a commercial holiday!!

I'll stick with,
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

When someone says Happy Holidays to me I just say Merry Christmas back. It does bother me to hear "Happy Holidays" instead of a specific celebrated day, but I don't get too worked up over it. I guess because I get where they are coming from. When the topic of the "Holiday party" comes up at work, I make a point of always calling it the Christmas party. I think people at work get where I am coming from too.

I guess I'm saying if you celebrate Christmas then say it. If you celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanza, or any other religious event, then say it and be proud!

in the stores where they say happy holidays, I ask them "what holidays"
and I won't just leave, I make them tell me exactly what are they wishing me. yes I am a pain


Right on! ^__^

Last year my mom went to a dollar store and the lady said "Happy Holidays" my mom started to say it then said "No! Its Merry Christmas. Have a Merry Christmas!" And she looked shocked and then said "Merry Christmas" The stores tell them to say that! That's unbelivable. I get offended when they say it.

Happy Hanukkah!

Why bother saying anything other than "hello" or "have a nice day" at all? You never know who does or doesn't celebrate the holidays, so isn't it a safe bet that everyone would rather just hear those common, regular greetings?

I really disagree with a lot of the anger and frustration revolving around this issue.

Here in the US, your can NO LONGER PRETEND TO BE MARTYRS FOR YOUR BELIEFS. THE WORLD IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU. STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!

Nobody is picking on you by trying to include others who don't agree with you or share your beliefs. Nobody is putting down your holiday by not saying it by name- they're simply acknowledging the fact that our country is not a Theocracy, not everyone celebrates Christmas- so why make that assumption?

People who are shopping at this time of year could be doing so for a number of reasons- how is a store associate supposed to know what religion each customer they encounter is a member of, which holiday each customer celebrates and how to adequately wish that customer an enjoyable holiday season? And, on top of that, why give the associate a hard time? If you're so against the consumerism of the season, why would you put a minimum wage over-worked employee through hell for a policy that they didn't implement, and which they would likely lose their jobs for breaking? That's just the spirit of christmas these days, I suppose, hmm?

I would think it odd for someone to wish me a merry christmas if I were in a store- how do they know I'm not Jewish? Muslim? Or hell, even an atheist?

I would be insulted that someone would make an assumption about my religious beliefs, and actually am happy that people use more generic terms when wishing me well. In a situation where we don't have much time to get to know someone on a personal level, a wish of happiness during a season where many people are celebrating SOMETHING is welcome in my book.

Demanding that everyone acknowledge that it's the CHRISTMAS season implies that there is very little respect for those of other religious beliefs- while it may be the christmas season for you, it is NOT for everyone else. When do others get to demand, say, the Happy Chaunnuka they deserve? Are their beliefs not as signifcant as yours?

Why people focus so much on this is beyond me. Do you think Jesus would really give two s if people said 'Merry Christmas', 'Happy Channuka', 'Happy Ramadan', 'Happy Quanza', 'Happy Winter Solstice'... as long as they were being good to one another, loving each other, and wishing each other well? Would Jesus become as irate as many Christians I've seen over this issue?

We have no right and no place to mandate the religious beliefs of others- nor to mandate the holidays other people celebrate- so why make generalizations that may offend others? If you're offended by not being acknowledge directly, imagine the offense to those who are directly excluded in a 'Merry Christmas' wish-

Please.

I really think that there are bigger battles to fight than this, don't you?

You'll all be happy to know my local Target has very large "Merry Christmas" signs hanging in the store.

You'll also be happy to know that not once did I verbally abuse an employee, nor complain to the management for their obvious commitment to one religion over others. I paid for my snow boots and went on my way.

I really disagree with a lot of the anger and frustration revolving around this issue.

Here in the US, your can NO LONGER PRETEND TO BE MARTYRS FOR YOUR BELIEFS. THE WORLD IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU. STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!

Nobody is picking on you by trying to include others who don't agree with you or share your beliefs. Nobody is putting down your holiday by not saying it by name- they're simply acknowledging the fact that our country is not a Theocracy, not everyone celebrates Christmas- so why make that assumption?

People who are shopping at this time of year could be doing so for a number of reasons- how is a store associate supposed to know what religion each customer they encounter is a member of, which holiday each customer celebrates and how to adequately wish that customer an enjoyable holiday season? And, on top of that, why give the associate a hard time? If you're so against the consumerism of the season, why would you put a minimum wage over-worked employee through hell for a policy that they didn't implement, and which they would likely lose their jobs for breaking? That's just the spirit of christmas these days, I suppose, hmm?

I would think it odd for someone to wish me a merry christmas if I were in a store- how do they know I'm not Jewish? Muslim? Or hell, even an atheist?

I would be insulted that someone would make an assumption about my religious beliefs, and actually am happy that people use more generic terms when wishing me well. In a situation where we don't have much time to get to know someone on a personal level, a wish of happiness during a season where many people are celebrating SOMETHING is welcome in my book.

Demanding that everyone acknowledge that it's the CHRISTMAS season implies that there is very little respect for those of other religious beliefs- while it may be the christmas season for you, it is NOT for everyone else. When do others get to demand, say, the Happy Chaunnuka they deserve? Are their beliefs not as signifcant as yours?

Why people focus so much on this is beyond me. Do you think Jesus would really give two s if people said 'Merry Christmas', 'Happy Channuka', 'Happy Ramadan', 'Happy Quanza', 'Happy Winter Solstice'... as long as they were being good to one another, loving eachother, and wishing eachother well? Would Jesus become as irate as many Christians I've seen over this issue?

We have no right and no place to mandate the religious beliefs of others- nor to mandate the holidays other people celebrate- so why make generalizations that may offend others? If you're offended by not being acknowledge directly, imagine the offense to those who are directly excluded in a 'Merry Christmas' wish-

Please.

I really think that there are bigger battles to fight than this, don't you?

Who said it was a big deal? We were simply discussing it.

Refusing to leave a store until some tells you what holiday they're wishing is happy... leaving stores where people aren't wished a merry christmas...
That's making a big deal out of it.
Making people uncomfortable for trying to be inclusive-
Is that really the christian thing to do?

Refusing to leave a store until some tells you what holiday they're wishing is happy... leaving stores where people aren't wished a merry christmas...
That's making a big deal out of it.
Making people uncomfortable for trying to be inclusive-
is that really the christian thing to do?


The larger majority of people celebrate Chirstmas. That's why a lot of people are fustrated.

The larger majority of people celebrate Chirstmas. Thats why alot of people are fustrated.
Well, they need to grow up and get over it. Like it or not, (and obviously many don't like it) this is a pluralistic society and no one group has the right to get all bent out of shape and throw tantrums because some public references to the holidays are generic rather than sectarian. Sounds like something the Taliban would do.

The larger majority of people celebrate Chirstmas. Thats why alot of people are fustrated.

The mentality that majority "wins" is a dangerous one.

I for one don't have a problem with Christians refusing to patronize a store which does not say "Merry Christmas", though I think it's a petty battle to fight. People have the right to spend their dollars where they wish, but what you DON'T have the right to do is insist everyone do as YOU wish. In a capitalist society, organizations are free to run their business as they see fit; Target has "Merry Christmas" signs, Wal-Mart (I think) says "Happy Holidays". It's up to the organization, and if they feel they are being damaged so horribly by consumers not shopping there because of their choice they will change it. But I have to say, there were people camping outside of my local Best Buy last night at 7pm; and THEY say "Happy Holidays". I think it's a losing battle, but that's just me.

I've been in stores or interacted with people who end their conversation with "And you have a blessed day" or "May God bless you" or something to that effect. It doesn't bother me; I simply smile, say thank you and move on. I have a hard time understanding why (some) Christians are unable to do the same. To each their own, I suppose.

The larger majority of people celebrate Chirstmas. Thats why alot of people are fustrated.


It's really irrelevant how many people celebrate Christmas, as the fact shows that NOT everyone does. Everyone does, however, wants to avoid irritation and people should acknowledge the fact that some are going to be offended when they say those kinds of greetings. That's why they ought to just stick with "hello" or "have a nice day". Who'd be offended at that?

Fallen:

To paraphrase Churchill;

You have offended someone? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.


It is sad that people find Christmas, pertaining to Jesus Christ and not the commercial aspect, offensive.




Grace and Peace

I believe this is a two way street. I hear that stores should just keep the everyday greetings during the Christmas season because not everyone celebrates Christmas. Okay, so what about those of us who do? Why is it that we need to be respectful of those who don't by the public doing away with "Merry Christmas" greetings? Why can't those who don't celebrate Christmas be respectful of those who do? Why do Christians have to do the giving up of their traditions to please those who don't hold the same traditions? I'm not saying all of those who don't celebrate Christmas are disrespectful, I am simply saying that since respect is what we all want where is it for Christ?
Especially with stores. They make more money in one wallop during this time of the year than they do all year so why not say Merry Christmas? They provide our decorations and gifts, why then do away with saying Merry Christmas? I think those who don't celebrate Christmas should respect that some of us do, and should be okay with well wishes of a Merry Christmas. Again, I am not saying that all do have a problem with it, but why then, do some take it away? For respect for their non-beliefs? Well, where is the believers respect?
It's a two way street.

I'm sure those who celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanza and other religious holidays feel the same way, moon.

Why is it so important a stranger acknowledge that you are a Christian?

The respect for Christ comes in how YOU celebrate the holiday; how YOU behave how YOU treat others, the kind of person YOU are - not in what some minimum wage seasonal worker says to you as you hand over your Visa.

And those stores which provide your Christmas decorations also provide other denominations their decorations and gifts too, so why do you "win" the battle of what employees say to you?

I just don't see how it is disrespectful to anyone of any denomination or no denomination to wish them a happy holiday season or tell them to have a nice day. Must be part of that "Christian Persecution" thing I don't understand.

Okay, I wanted more opinions on this. My mom got this email and sent it to me:

I would rather say Happy whatever for each holiday then just say "Happy Holidays"
If people get so offended by saying "Merry Chirstmas" Dont they know that some people get offended if you say Happy Holidays? What do you guys think?

I think the important thing to remember is that this is a society based on a free economy. Those stores aren't really trying to put Christianity down. They are trying to maximize profit.

We need to vote with our dollars. Don't spend any money on any store that doesn't recognize the real meaning of Christmas. If they prefer to say, "Happy Holidays", explain to them why you won't spend your money in their establishment until they recognize the real reason for the season.

Now, many nonChristians will protest that it isn't our right. But the fact is, that it is our right as Americans. We can spend our dollars where we see fit and we can tell them why we spend our dollars where we see fit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria,
That is a great idea. I support it 100%.

But as Americans it is also important to recognize the diversity present within our society. If stores begin recognizing Christians by wishing everyone who passes through the store this time of year a 'Merry Christmas', that would then, in your perspective, be disrespectful to those who celebrate other holidays because the real reason for their celebration is not acknowledged. Correct?

Or does that not matter since other religions are not as signifcant, important, or deserving of recognition as Christianity?

Or do you not even see it as disrespectful when someone else's religion is not recognized, only your own? Doesn't that make you a bit arrogant? That only your holiday need be recognized, and others... well, because they're not the majority, they can just learn to deal with it? Or become Christian so it doesn't bother them anymore?

But as Americans it is also important to recognize the diversity present within our society. If stores begin recognizing Christians by wishing everyone who passes through the store this time of year a 'Merry Christmas', that would then, in your perspective, be disrespectful to those who celebrate other holidays because the real reason for their celebration is not acknowledged. Correct?

Or does that not matter since other religions are not as signifcant, important, or deserving of recognition as Christianity?

Or do you not even see it as disrespectful when someone else's religion is not recognized, only your own? Doesn't that make you a bit arrogant? That only your holiday need be recognized, and others... well, because they're not the majority, they can just learn to deal with it? Or become Christian so it doesn't bother them anymore?

Whom are you addressing?

In addition to Thanksgiving not starting until after Halloween, and Christmas after Thanksgiving, could the political campaigning wait until after New years?

I'm sure those who celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanza and other religious holidays feel the same way, moon.

Why is it so important a stranger acknowledge that you are a Christian?

The respect for Christ comes in how YOU celebrate the holiday; how YOU behave how YOU treat others, the kind of person YOU are - not in what some minimum wage seasonal worker says to you as you hand over your Visa.

And those stores which provide your Christmas decorations also provide other denominations their decorations and gifts too, so why do you "win" the battle of what employees say to you?

I just don't see how it is disrespectful to anyone of any denomination or no denomination to wish them a happy holiday season or tell them to have a nice day. Must be part of that "Christian Persecution" thing I don't understand.

I agree with you. I don't really care what the employee says to me to be honest with you. I'm not trying to rally to keep "Merry Christmas" as a greeting. I think you may have missed my point, but maybe I was not very clear.
What I was getting at is that we all want respect for our beliefs, we all would like for things to go our way, but that cannot be for everyone cannot be happy with just one way. So, why protest the saying of Merry Christmas in the first place? Why is it such a big deal? Why not have respect for those of us who do celebrate Christmas? Why change what is already there to please yourself? Why not just say to yourself... Christmas is a celebration for many people, what will it hurt for me to hear a Merry Christmas greeting when I check out? When the Christmas season comes around, Christmas is all around you. Everywhere you look are decorations, music and in the very store you don't want to hear Merry Christmas is full of Christmas items to purchase. You may not celebrate nor like Christmas, but it will not go away. If you are going to have to deal with Christmas every where you look until it is over then why not deal with hearing a Merry Christmas greeting? You who are opposed act as though we are making a big deal out of not excepting that stores will no longer acknowledge Christ during the holiday, but what about those who are opposed to it? It seems to me that the bigger deal being made is by those who are against it. The trouble you go through to change it seems like making it a big deal to me, when even though it is changed in some stores, Christmas is still all around you, even in those very stores? What then, have you truly accomplised? What then, was the point? If Christ is taken out of this holiday for the public to please those who do not believe in Christ, then you have displeased those who do. How do people who don't agree with Christmas justify their wantings over those wantings of the Christians? If for the public Christ has been taken out of this holiday out of respect for those who do not celebrate Christmas, then Christians would feel disrespected. For Christ is the whole reason for Christmas. So, with that said, how can you truly justify either way? And not just Christmas and no Christmas. It would still be this way if people said Happy Hunakkah, Happy Kawanza, what have you. Someone will get what they want and the other won't. That's what I meant by it's a two way street. Or rather a two way, multi-lane interstate.
Therefore, my point is... Christmas will not go away no matter what you do, no matter what greeting you get, so why be bothered by hearing "Merry Christmas"?

In an effort to not offend anyone and be "diverse" no one's uniqueness is recognized.

We are all commanded to be bland inoffensive people in the name of politically correct ideology/ religion that is forcing its belief on those that care about what matters most to us Christians - faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no "freedom FROM religion" in the constitution but a freedom of religious expression.

As to a "persecution complex" check this out

Gillian Gibbons at risk of more serious charges after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2957469.ece)

Personally, I am offended that I cannot share my beliefs in some settings without being told I am intolerant and politically uncorrect. Any other person may share their beliefs, but to be a Christian is to offend. Jesus was highly offensive to the Pharisees. It is good to be considered with Him.

My previous post was in response to the post by De Maria.

As far as MoonlitWaves' post... I do understand what you're saying, but I think some things you said aren't necessarily true. For example:

"why protest the saying of Merry Christmas in the first place? Why is it such a big deal? Why not have respect for those of us who do celebrate Christmas? Why change what is already there to please yourself? Why not just say to yourself...Christmas is a celebration for many people, what will it hurt for me to hear a Merry Christmas greeting when I check out?"

I don't think the protest is against saying 'Merry Christmas'- rather, stores, attempting to be more inclusive, have attempted to transition to a more generic holiday greeting in recognition of the fact that #1, not everyone is Christian, celebrates Christmas, and this greeting simply does not make sense to be given to each customer (imagine if each time you went to the store, the cashier wished you a 'happy birthday' under the assumption that it was, or at least could be, your birthday when in actuality it was not. Wouldn't it be, at the very least, a bit strange? And, needless to say, very obviously an insincere wish, since they don't even know or care if it's your birthday? Trying to determine someone's religion in the 2 minute interaction between employee and customer is about as easy as looking at someone and knowing it's their birthday-), and #2, their concern is not, and should not be, to keep 'Christ in Christmas'- that is up to the individual and their way of celebrating. Stores are not religious institutions- they are a necessary component of our capitalist society which financially takes advantage of the 'Holiday Season' and uses marketing tactics to coerce those celebrating holidays at this time of year to pump money into the economy during the winter months, when, without holiday celebrations, our economy would suffer.

I personally am not offended if I hear Merry Christmas- I think the shift in what people are 'permitted' by their employers to say is simply an attempt to be more inclusive of other religions-

I, nor anyone I know, take offense to people assuming we're Christian, although we're not. I've seen more of a push from the Christian side to get store associates saying 'Merry Christmas' than from the secular side wanting to hear 'Happy Holidays'. Christians seem to be the ones becoming more offended at an attempt to be inclusive than non-Christians at an attempt to integrate religion into consumerism.

"How do people who don't agree with Christmas justify their wantings over those wantings of the Christians? If for the public Christ has been taken out of this holiday out of respect for those who do not celebrate Christmas, then Christians would feel disrespected. For Christ is the whole reason for Christmas. So, with that said, how can you truly justify either way? And not just Christmas and no Christmas. It would still be this way if people said Happy Hunakkah, Happy Kawanza, what have you. Someone will get what they want and the other won't. That what's I meant by it's a two way street.

It's not that those who don't celebrate christmas want to 'remove christ' from christmas. They, along with more open minded christians, are simply making an effort to be inclusive and wish someone well in a way that would make sense to someone of any belief, not just christians celebrating christmas. No one would be excluded if the greeting simply remained 'happy holidays'- so anyone celebrating any holidays at this time is acknowledged by someone who doesn't have a clue as to what holiday it is that person could be celebrating- no assumptions are made, no incorrect perceptions of someone's religious beliefs--- why is that seen as such a bad thing, or an 'attack' on christmas?


"Christmas will not go away no matter what you do, no matter what greeting you get, so why be bothered by hearing "Merry Christmas"?"

No one wants christmas to 'go away'- very few are actually BOTHERED by being wished merry christmas- and those who are seldom complain, boycott stores, and escalate the issue to the extent that christians do when 'christmas' is not specifically mentioned.

You know the meaning of the holiday you are celebrating and you celebrate it in your own way, that should be sufficient, and typically is for many people.

Diversity will not go away no matter what you do, and no matter what greeting you get- so why be bothered by hearing 'Happy Holidays'?

"No one wants christmas to 'go away'- very few are actually BOTHERED by being wished merry christmas- and those who are seldom complain, boycott stores, and escalate the issue to the extent that christians do when 'christmas' is not specifically mentioned."
I disagree with this statement. Everywhere there is a protest about anything there are always people who are for and against. So I seriously doubt saying, "Christians protests more than others", is factual.

"Diversity will not go away no matter what you do, and no matter what greeting you get- so why be bothered by hearing 'Happy Holidays'?"
You said exactly what I did but from your stand point. Arguments are good on both sides, both make sense.

I personally, as I said before, do not care what greeting I get. I plan on having a Merry Christmas regardless. My argument was coming from the thought that there are people out there who, with trying to take away the words Merry Christmas, are wanting to take Christ out of it. There are those out there. I'll say it again. Why? Out of respect for their beliefs which do not include Christ? But then if you respect their beliefs you in turn disrespect the Christian's belief.

When FrChuck said that when he gets a Happy Holiday that had the cashier said Hanukkah he would have said, wrong answer? Of course not. It is his preference to hear Merry Christmas. You may feel it is out of line for him to get a cashier to tell him Merry Christmas, but I say it's to each their own.

My previous post was in response to the post by De Maria.

Really?


But as Americans it is also important to recognize the diversity present within our society. If stores begin recognizing Christians by wishing everyone who passes through the store this time of year a 'Merry Christmas', that would then, in your perspective, be disrespectful to those who celebrate other holidays because the real reason for their celebration is not acknowledged. Correct? Or does that not matter since other religions are not as signifcant, important, or deserving of recognition as Christianity?

You said that, I didn't.


Or do you not even see it as disrespectful when someone else's religion is not recognized, only your own?

The fact is, it is Christians who respect others religions. Christianity respects and teaches freedom of conscience. That is why the founding Fathers created a nation where one may practice freedom of religion. Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation or in an atheist state like China.


Doesn't that make you a bit arrogant?

The arrogant one is you. You are arrogant enough to make up a great deal of things which I didn't say and attribute them to me. That is not just arrogance, it is dishonesty.


That only your holiday need be recognized, and others... well, because they're not the majority, they can just learn to deal with it? Or become Christian so it doesn't bother them anymore?

Now, if I said the things which you attribute to me, please point them out. Provide the quote.

Otherwise, I suggest you read my previous message again and next time, engage the actual message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

"No one wants christmas to 'go away'- very few are actually BOTHERED by being wished merry christmas- and those who are seldom complain, boycott stores, and escalate the issue to the extent that christians do when 'christmas' is not specifically mentioned."
I disagree with this statement. Everywhere there is a protest about anything there are always people who are for and against. So I seriously doubt saying, "Christians protests more than others", is factual.

Really? Because it's Christians I see on the corner with signs protesting movies or policical actions. It's Christians who declared the "War on Christmas" when the STORES decided to say "Happy Holidays". I've never seen or heard of anyone causing a ruckus because a store says "Merry Christmas", but there has been a "War" declared for saying "Happy Holidays". I've also seen very little protesting from other religious groups about what is taught in schools, what books are in our libraries... Just a little story for you, my mom works for the county library system. When Christians find books they don't like in the library, they make a fuss about it and demand the book be removed. If it is not removed, they check the books out and never return them, or rip out the offending pages (like medical books depicting genitals). I also remember hearing about Christian groups going into grocery stores, filling their carts with frozen foods, and leaving them in the aisles to protest the sale of (I think) Harry Potter books in the grocery store. So maybe there's no "official statistic" about Christians and protest, but it certainly seems they are the group who is the most vocal.


I personally, as I said before, do not care what greeting I get. I plan on having a Merry Christmas regardless. My argument was coming from the thought that there are people out there who, with trying to take away the words Merry Christmas, are wanting to take Christ out of it. There are those out there. I'll say it again. Why? Out of respect for their beliefs which do not include Christ? But then if you respect their beliefs you in turn disrespect the Christian's belief.

You think Christ has been taken out of Christmas simply because every person you interact with doesn't say "Merry Christmas"? I think Christ was lost from Christmas years ago when the push to consumerism and materialism took over the holiday and the focus on the significance of the holiday from a religious aspect has been largely forgotten. I think that, and I'm not even a Christian! Virtually every atheist I know celebrates Christmas as a time to get together with the ones we love and exchange gifts. Doesn't THAT take the Christ out of Christmas, when people who don't believe in god celebrate the holiday? And sorry, but how is it disrespecting one's belief by not saying "Merry Christmas"? You still believe, and YOU have the right to respond to a "Happy Holidays" wish with "Merry Christmas". Saying "Merry Christmas" specifically excludes certain groups, which in my opinion is far more disrespectful than a generic wish of well-being.

And to those who take issue with "Happy Holidays" why do you not boycott or protest the store for the remainder of the year when they say "Have a nice day" instead of "Have a blessed day"? Is "Have a nice day" not an inclusive wish of well-being with no religious designation? Why is it not an issue for a store on the day before Thanksgiving to say "Have a nice say" but on Black Friday suddenly everyone must say "Merry Christmas"? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I really don't get it. And further, if you don't like that Wal-Mart (or whoever) doesn't say "Merry Christmas" do you refuse to shop there for the remainder of the year?

Really? Because it's Christians I see on the corner with signs protesting movies or policical actions.

Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.

Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?

Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?

Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jillianleab-
You said everything I wanted to say and more.
Tried to give feedback directly to your answer, but wasn't allowed to- said that I need to 'spread some reputation around' before giving it to you again-
lol
I guess I agree with you a lot. =)
But, rather than being repetitious and re-stating everything you said, I'll simply say that I agree 200% and leave it at that.
I actually don't feel the need to contribute anything further at this point.

Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.

Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?

Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?

Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Not at all, I have no desire to take away anyone's freedoms. Christians have the right to protest, to boycott stores, etc just as much as anyone else. I was responding to Moon's statement regarding Christians protesting more than others was not factual, hence the fact her statement was quoted directly above mine.

For the record though, I think it's petty and childish to rip pages out of medical books, to steal books you don't like the content of and to destroy food you have not purchased as a form of protest. I believe, if those individuals were actually caught for their actions they could be charged for destruction of property or for theft. That's not the Christian way, is it? :)

Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.

Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?

Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?

Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?

Sincerely,

De Maria

No one is faulting you for exercising your rights. Just pointing out that the objection to 'Happy Holidays' is a far louder protest than those who are against 'Merry Christmas'. You have the right to protest whatever you want- just don't expect things to go your way when you're insisitng that your religion and only your religion be recognized at this time of year. It's not going to happen- you can say Merry Christmas all you want and no one will persecute you for it- but when a store associate wishes you well generically rather than making assumptions in regard to your beliefs and what you're celebrating, finding fault in them for that is wrong.

The examples you give are poor. The feminist and gay rights movements are efforts to acquire basic human rights for those who currently do not have them. This debate is insignificant in comparison. As Jillianleab said, the real outrage should be at the commercialism during your sacred holiday season, not what the store associate utters mindlessly 500 times a day as you pay for a cart load of unnecessary material items.

No one is trying to prevent Christians from exercising their rights- so please don't try to victimize Christians. In society and government today, it is really more along the lines of Christians trying to prevent those who are of alternate beliefs from exercising their rights- for example, since you brought it up, preventing gays from marrying because according to Christian morality homosexuality is a sin, and apparently Christian morality is the dictator of Federal law- but that's off topic, so let's not go there.

The fact is, it is Christians who respect others religions. Christianity respects and teaches freedom of conscience. That is why the founding Fathers created a nation where one may practice freedom of religion. Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation or in an atheist state like China.


Really? Freedom of conscience? Perhaps doctrinally that is part of Christianity and Catholicism, but in practice?

You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways. 'Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation?'

How about... try getting married in America if you gay? Ooops, can't, Christians who respect freedom of conscience are against that one!

And I did not make up things and attribute them to you- I posed a number of questions, things which could be deduced from things you said- and re-reading my post, they may not have been solely from your argument, but partially from yours and partially from those of others who have posted on this thread. I do apologize if it appeared to be accusations toward you only- the majority of my post was in response to yours, but it is possible that due to the number of people posting and the length of this thread, some things may have unintentionally been pulled in from the arguments of others.

So I do apologize there if it came off that way.

In an effort to not offend anyone and be "diverse" no one's uniqueness is recognized.

We are all commanded to be bland inoffensive people in the name of politically correct ideology/ religion that is forcing its belief on those that care about what matters most to us Christians - faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no "freedom FROM religion" in the constitution but a freedom of religious expression.

As to a "persecution complex" check this out

Gillian Gibbons at risk of more serious charges after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2957469.ece)

Though I think you are going a little overboard with your language ("commanded", "bland") I agree with you. The PC movement is a little nuts and there are far to many people from any and all sides which overreact.

But I have to ask, how is a minimum wage seasonal employee wishing you "Happy Holidays" taking away part of your faith? Is faith not a personal thing? Even if, say, the government said NO expressions of religion may be had, would that compromise your faith? Would you believe a little less if you were not allowed to wear a cross around your neck? I don't know you personally, but based on the responses I've seen you give in this site, I would say no, that's not going to shake your faith.

You're also right there is no freedom FROM religion, but employees of a store saying "Happy Holidays" is hardly restricting freedom of religious expression. Besides, even if the employees are ordered by the organization to say "Happy Holidays", as long as it's a private organization, they can do that. There is no prohibition of celebrating Christmas on your own time, just how the store wants people to be greeted. It's the same as when a store requires staff to say "Welcome to McDonald's how may I help you today?" If you don't like it, you are free to quit.

And sorry, but your "persecution complex" story doesn't apply - that situation is taking place in a foreign land which has no religious freedom. Horrible story, stupid charges, but it does not demonstrate how Christians specifically are being persecuted, especially in the US.

Not at all, I have no desire to take away anyone's freedoms. Christians have the right to protest, to boycott stores, etc just as much as anyone else.

Good. That is all I wanted you to say.


For the record though, I think it's petty and childish to rip pages out of medical books, to steal books you don't like the content of and to destroy food you have not purchased as a form of protest. I believe, if those individuals were actually caught for their actions they could be charged for destruction of property or for theft. That's not the Christian way, is it? :)

Agreed. But there's no proof those things ever happened. Just one person's allegations.

But, are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Really? Freedom of conscience? Perhaps doctrinally that is part of Christianity and Catholicism, but in practice?

Yes. In practice. This nation and many other nations born of Christian values are where you can exercise your freedom of conscience.


You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways. 'Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation?'

Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.


How about... try getting married in America if you gay? Ooops, can't, Christians who respect freedom of conscience are against that one!

All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.

They certainly have the right to protest our beliefs however. Somehow I doubt that one will ever become law. And if it does, I believe it will be the first one overturned by 2/3 majority as is our right.


And I did not make up things and attribute them to you- I posed a number of questions, things which could be deduced from things you said- and re-reading my post, they may not have been solely from your argument, but partially from yours and partially from those of others who have posted on this thread. I do apologize if it appeared to be accusations toward you only- the majority of my post was in response to yours, but it is possible that due to the number of people posting and the length of this thread, some things may have unintentionally been pulled in from the arguments of others.

So I do apologize there if it came off that way.

Apology accepted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Okay, I wanted more opinions on this. My mom got this email and sent it to me:



I would rather say Happy whatever for each holiday then just say "Happy Holidays"
If people get so offended by saying "Merry Chirstmas" Dont they know that some people get offended if you say Happy Holidays? What do you guys think?
I've enjoyed the reparte' folks. If you address me in any messages, be aware that "Ah'll be bock!...." in ten days.

Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.


The 'if you don't like it, leave' mentality is not necessarily one I agree with. How about, if you don't like it, change it? If you don't like it, and other people don't like it, work to make it better?

I am happy in America, but that doesn't mean it is perfect- no society ever will be, everyone will have qualms with something- which is why it is our duty to not just sit back and accept the things we dislike about our country and say 'well, it'll never be perfect, so why try?' but instead to do our part to make improvements. Leaving an imperfect country does nothing except appease those who are either too stupid to see the problems or too apathetic to care that problems exist.



All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.


And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief. I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.

Good. That is all I wanted you to say.



Agreed. But there's no proof those things ever happened. Just one person's allegations.

But, are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally. I said very clearly in my first post of the things Christians specifically were doing, I never said they shouldn't do them, so for you to ask if I think Christians should not be allowed to protest and then say "That's what I wanted you to say" is ridiculous and pompous. Read more carefully and you will understand the messages instead of reading what you THINK I'm saying and trying to stir up trouble.

You've done it again with "are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?". Where in my post, in ANY post did I say or indicate that? And passing off the information I passed on about pages being torn from books as "one person's allegations" and there is no "proof" implies you think either 1. I'm a liar or 2. The staff at my county library is full of liars. But you apparently think everyone is "out to get the Christians" so of course this must be made up.

Either way, I no longer wish to discuss things with you, as you are rude and try to provoke people. Consider yourself officially added to my "ignore" list.

Every Who down in Who-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any presents at all!
He HADN'T stopped Christmas from coming!
IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!

And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?
It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
"It came without packages, boxes or bags!"
And he puzzled three hours, `till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before!
"Maybe Christmas," he thought, "doesn't come from a store.
"Maybe Christmas...perhaps...means a little bit more!" -Dr Seuss

I say don't give a shizzz about what people think, who cares if they get offended, everything used to be normal, but now its all a buch a ********* <not good.

Its tradition
Screw them and go on ignore all the shiz they throw at us
ILL FIGHT BACK... WILL YOU!

It just struck me. Do we want a non Christian wishing us a Merry Christmas just to give them or their employer a better shot at our dollar? If somebody can't give me a Merry Christmas from their heart, do I want it?

Quoted from Jillianleab
"Really? Because it's Christians I see on the corner with signs protesting movies or policical actions. It's Christians who declared the "War on Christmas" when the STORES decided to say "Happy Holidays". I've never seen or heard of anyone causing a ruckus because a store says "Merry Christmas", but there has been a "War" declared for saying "Happy Holidays". I've also seen very little protesting from other religious groups about what is taught in schools, what books are in our libraries"

Think about this for a minute. What you are seeing is the protest from Christians about stores not saying "Merry Christmas". But you forget to think about why it was changed to "Happy Holidays" in the first place. Why was it changed in the first place? It's more than likely a combination of things. One reason could be that the store owners do not wish to acknowledge just one belief. It could also be that those who are not Christian protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" since they do not celebrate Christmas. Whether it's for the better or no the point is Christians aren't the only ones protesting.

I'm not sure if it was you but someone asked would I or do I refuse to shop at these stores the rest of the year. This could have been a general question to anyone who answers too so I will answer. I don't refuse to shop anywhere, anytime of the year. It's not a big deal for me to hear "Happy Holidays". I am also all for fairness, especially when it concerns those things which are important, such as religion. I have respect because I want respect. If you read the other thread in the Christianity topic you will see that I am a Christian who respects that prayer was taken out of school as a set time/group activity or however you phrase it. I have that respect because was it prayer in/for a different religion than mine I too would do the same protesting that was done to have prayer done away with as a set time. That's off the topic I know, but the point is I have respect for other people's right to their religion. What my argument was about, and I know I am repeating myself, is this... (1)No matter what you do you usually step on toes. For example; if you take away "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on Christians toes to please non-Christians. If you continue to say "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on non-Christian's toes. So how do you completely justify either one? You go with the lesser evil right? "Happy Holidays" basically respects all beliefs during this season. And I agree with that. I am defending the Christian thinking not only because I am a Christian but because whether you have made the better decision or not you can't fault someone for agreeing or disagreeing. Their beliefs make them think the way they do and they have a freedom to that. Let'em protest because they are standing up for what they believe in whether it's agreed upon or not, whether it's the best decision or not (I mean this as within the law). Think it ridiculous or absurd all you want, but they have just as much right as you have to disagree with them. See what I mean? (2) My argument was also this... Someone had said that Christians were making a big deal out of the greeting thing. My argument was that it seems to me that those who protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" is making the bigger deal as Christmas will still be all around them. How can hearing a Merry Christmas greeting bother them to this extent when until the Christmas season is over with they will see it everywhere they turn. It was simply a rebuttle against the statement that a big deal was being made from Christians and it may be, but we aren't the only ones.

".... Just a little story for you, my mom works for the county library system. When Christians find books they don't like in the library, they make a fuss about it and demand the book be removed. If it is not removed, they check the books out and never return them, or rip out the offending pages (like medical books depicting genitals). I also remember hearing about Christian groups going into grocery stores, filling their carts with frozen foods, and leaving them in the aisles to protest the sale of (I think) Harry Potter books in the grocery store. So maybe there's no "official statistic" about Christians and protest, but it certainly seems they are the group who is the most vocal."
This, I agree, is way out of hand. Like I said earlier whether we think it ridiculous or not people have a right to protest and should be respected for standing up for what they believe in. I don't agree when they break laws like stealing books, destroying property, etc. I don't even agree with rudeness and cruelty in protesting even if it's within the law. I believe that Christians like everyone else should stand up for what they believe in, explain why they believe the way the do and why it, in their mind, would be the better thing, but as Christians we should not lose our focus on what Jesus would have done. He most definintely would have told you the better or right way but He would have done it nicely, in a civil fashion, with loving kindness and tenderness. Never would he have stolen a book. He knows we have free will and even when He was on this earth, Truth right in front of their faces, he kept with freewill. We know that because there were still some who denied Him. This is not to say He doesn't or didn't ever get angry, but angry or no He could have forced belief in His truth, but he didn't.

"But I have to ask, how is a minimum wage seasonal employee wishing you "Happy Holidays" taking away part of your faith? Is faith not a personal thing? Even if, say, the government said NO expressions of religion may be had, would that compromise your faith? Would you believe a little less if you were not allowed to wear a cross around your neck? "
I know you were addressing someone else with this but I would like to say something on it. The same questions could be asked to everyone else. Does hearing "Merry Christmas" lessen your faith in your religion/God? Does it even affect those who believe in no God at all? Again, this is what I meant by a two way street. Not all can be pleased. If you please one you displease another. Therefore how do you justify the decision made to allow one and not the other?
Let me ask this question... I know that the US does not have a national Religion like other countries, but there still could be a freedom of religion and still have a national religion. What I am getting at is this... If Christianity was the US national religion would non Christian's still protest the "In God We Trust" on monies? Would they still protest creationism being in public schools? Prayer? Remember you still have the freedom to believe what you want. What I am getting at is, does "In God We Trust" violate this right? Does ELECTIVE prayer in school truly violate this right? Even when there was prayer it was not forced. Does the teaching of an ELECTIVE religion course violate freedom of religion? Does hearing "Merry Christmas" violate this right? I know this goes against separation of church and state, but even then a certain religion was not forced. Children still were not forced to pray, take religion courses, people aren't forced to celebrate Christmas, etc. Creationsim is not fact is the argument I hear, but to those who believe it, it is a fact. Forget separation of church and state for a moment. Tell me how you can possibly say that the teaching of some people's belief of evolution is any better or more appropriate or should be the only teaching than other's belief in creationism? Some may not want their children to hear the idea of creationism, but the same can be said for evolution. I know it may be hard to think about no separation in church and state, but bear with me as I have a point. There is a reason our founding fathers put "In God We Trust" on monies, there is a reason why religion and prayer was initially allowed in schools, etc. Why do away with that? Whether you agree or not, believe or not. Why do away with that? How does keeping these things around violate anyone's right? No one is forced to do anything involving any certain religion. Why separate church and state to begin with if no one is forced to be involved religiously?
This is just my opinion, but hear me out... I believe separation was done because there were people out there who simply did not want religion (mostly Christianity simply because this was what was in the schools and on money) in anything they did/do. Notice I said WANT because they weren't forced, rights never violated. How is their want any better than the want of keeping things how they were/are? Therefore I will say it again, it may be thought that Christians make a big deal with certain things, but to me, the continued doing away with Christian things is making a big deal.
So I say this last thing... Christians may protest many things, but think about it... whether you agree with the Christian view or not... the more time that passes the more Christianity is being taken away publicly. Christians don't want this because of the obvious. All Christians are doing is trying to keep laws, things, ways, whatever you want to say in our beliefs because that's what we agree with and believe in. That's what we feel is the best thing. Whether they stick or not, whether they are agreed upon or not, whether they are the right things for all or not, it is simply our beliefs in which some of us protest in hopes that people will see things the way we think they should be. I will say that some try to push this on everyone, not giving people the freedom to believe what they wish. I don't agree with this, but I do think that as long as it is civil there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating your opinions, beliefs, wants, etc in hopes that people may see it your way.

Think about this for a minute. What you are seeing is the protest from Christians about stores not saying "Merry Christmas". But you forget to think about why it was changed to "Happy Holidays" in the first place. Why was it changed in the first place? It's more than likely a combination of things. One reason could be that the store owners do not wish to acknowledge just one belief. It could also be that those who are not Christian protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" since they do not celebrate Christmas. Whether it's for the better or no the point is Christians aren't the only ones protesting.

I think I said it before, but maybe I didn't - I've NEVER seen someone protest a store for saying "Merry Christmas". I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen/heard about it, which leads me to believe the STORES are the ones who decided to say "Happy Holidays" as a way to include their other customers in well-wishings. So, if the STORES made the decision because they want to be more inclusive, no, it's NOT because of protest from non-Christians.


I'm not sure if it was you but someone asked would I or do I refuse to shop at these stores the rest of the year. This could have been a general question to anyone who answers too so I will answer. I don't refuse to shop anywhere, anytime of the year. It's not a big deal for me to hear "Happy Holidays". I am also all for fairness, especially when it concerns those things which are important, such as religion.

It was me who asked, but it was a general question, not to anyone in particular.


I have respect because I want respect. If you read the other thread in the Christianity topic you will see that I am a Christian who respects that prayer was taken out of school as a set time/group activity or however you phrase it. I have that respect because was it prayer in/for a different religion than mine I too would do the same protesting that was done to have prayer done away with as a set time. That's off the topic I know, but the point is I have respect for other people's right to their religion. What my argument was about, and I know I am repeating myself, is this... (1)No matter what you do you usually step on toes. For example; if you take away "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on Christians toes to please non-Christians. If you continue to say "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on non-Christian's toes. So how do you completely justify either one? You go with the lesser evil right? "Happy Holidays" basically respects all beliefs during this season. And I agree with that. I am defending the Christian thinking not only because I am a Christian but because whether you have made the better decision or not you can't fault someone for agreeing or disagreeing. Their beliefs make them think the way they do and they have a freedom to that. Let'em protest because they are standing up for what they believe in whether it's agreed upon or not, whether it's the best decision or not (I mean this as within the law). Think it ridiculous or absurd all you want, but they have just as much right as you have to disagree with them. See what I mean? (2) My argument was also this... Someone had said that Christians were making a big deal out of the greeting thing. My argument was that it seems to me that those who protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" is making the bigger deal as Christmas will still be all around them. How can hearing a Merry Christmas greeting bother them to this extent when until the Christmas season is over with they will see it everywhere they turn. It was simply a rebuttle against the statement that a big deal was being made from Christians and it may be, but we aren't the only ones.

I've already said I fully support one's right to spend their dollars where they want, to protest, etc. If someone doesn't want to shop in stores that are run by black people, that's their right. They have the right to have that opinion and I have the right to think they are mistaken. They have the right to disagree with me. I'm not trying to say Christians should be FORCED to shop in stores which say "Merry Christmas" but rather to (hopefully) get through WHY the stores do such a thing and why it's not necessarily a demonstration of a "War on Christmas" or an example of Christian persecution. You're right, you can't make everyone happy, but when it is the STORE making the decision to use whatever greeting they want, is it necessary to declare it a "War"? Is it necessary to get upset? That's the behavior that I don't get; I really, truly, don't understand why anyone would care what someone says to them when it is a friendly greeting and it is someone you don't even know. That goes for the use of "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas", whatever. If you don't like it don't shop there, but why decalre a "War"? Why cause a public outcry? Aren't there more important things you could focus your energies on? Why not spend your dollars elsewhere and move on if it bothers you so much? (BTW, by "you" I mean the collective "you", not you specifically.)


This, I agree, is way out of hand. Like I said earlier whether we think it ridiculous or not people have a right to protest and should be respected for standing up for what they believe in. I don't agree when they break laws like stealing books, destroying property, etc.

I'm glad we both agree this behavior is unacceptable! :) Protesting is one thing, but destruction of property as a means of protest is quite another!


I know you were addressing someone else with this but I would like to say something on it. The same questions could be asked to everyone else. Does hearing "Merry Christmas" lessen your faith in your religion/God? Does it even affect those who believe in no God at all? Again, this is what I meant by a two way street. Not all can be pleased. If you please one you displease another. Therefore how do you justify the decision made to allow one and not the other?

No, hearing "Merry Christmas" doesn't cause me to pause for a moment, it doesn't change my personal beliefs whatsoever. My point in saying that is, if the STORE decides to say it, why do you (collective you) care so much? Does it hurt you inside to hear "Happy Holidays"? Does it compromise your beliefs? If not, what difference does it make what the stores say? I think that's pretty much the root of it - I just don't see what the big deal is. Leave it up to the stores on how inclusive/exclusive they want to be.


Let me ask this question... I know that the US does not have a national Religion like other countries, but there still could be a freedom of religion and still have a national religion. What I am getting at is this... If Christianity was the US national religion would non Christian's still protest the "In God We Trust" on monies?

It's important you know "In God We Trust" was added to our money in 1957. "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954. Neither has anything to do with the fouding fathers.

You've gotten into some other issues (creationism, etc) that go pretty far off topic and have been discussed in other threads. So, in an effort to keep this thread on track, I'm not going to address those points. If, however, you want to start a new thread about those points and if the US had a national religion, I'd be happy to join it and address them there.


So I say this last thing... Christians may protest many things, but think about it... whether you agree with the Christian view or not... the more time that passes the more Christianity is being taken away publicly. Christians don't want this because of the obvious. All Christians are doing is trying to keep laws, things, ways, whatever you want to say in our beliefs because that's what we agree with and believe in. That's what we feel is the best thing. Whether they stick or not, whether they are agreed upon or not, whether they are the right things for all or not, it is simply our beliefs in which some of us protest in hopes that people will see things the way we think they should be. I will say that some try to push this on everyone, not giving people the freedom to believe what they wish. I don't agree with this, but I do think that as long as it is civil there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating your opinions, beliefs, wants, etc in hopes that people may see it your way.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with wanting to state your beliefs publicly, protest to what you don't believe in, and try to get the law to side with you. The problem is when extremists (on either side) want it "their way" at the exclusion of all others, with no flexibility and at the violation of other's rights. But here's the thing about Christianity being taken away publicly (as you put it); if you mean no public displays of the Wise men and so on, it's important to remember that as our society progresses, we are realizing other's beliefs and cultures are just as important as those of Christians. Businesses are starting to realize the importance of non-Christians who shop in their stores; communities are realizing the prevalence of non-Christians and want to demonstrate they appreciate EVERYONE not just some. As such, what used to be public Christian displays shift to secular displays. Just a few decades ago atheists couldn't be "public" or outspoken, we STILL can't get a set in Congress. So I think society is making a shift because of demand to more secular and more inclusive. Think about women's rights and their role in society now as opposed to fifty years ago. It's a natural shift as societies grow and change.

It's important you know "In God We Trust" was added to our money in 1957. "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954. Neither has anything to do with the fouding fathers.

You've gotten into some other issues (creationism, etc) that go pretty far off topic and have been discussed in other threads. So, in an effort to keep this thread on track, I'm not going to address those points. If, however, you want to start a new thread about those points and if the US had a national religion, I'd be happy to join it and address them there.

Yeah, your right about the monies and pleadge, but it still goes collectively with the other things I said. My intentions were not to discuss these topics with you on this thread individually. I was using those examples and asking those various questions as a whole to go with what I had said above those questions about, "Does having them stay lessen your (collective you) faith or lack of?" This was in response to you asking to same question first, but about them being removed, taken away, changed, etc. Which you answered by saying that it was about society changing to recognize all beliefs. Do I make sense? Though I wish things could be the way they are/were because it is my belief, I like things that way, I can respect that our country is further recognizing that it has people with many different beliefs.
The point is this, I have respect for all beliefs because I want respect for mine. I will talk about my beliefs, I will say why I disagree or agree, but I am not a protester (sign holder, marcher). Maybe I should be, but I am not. But even though I don't go so far as to hold signs and march I can understand why Christians do. I relate to their beliefs and feelings. Like I told you before I don't mind hearing "Happy Holidays" (in other words I'm not protesting it), but I was discussing this with you on the side of Christians because I can understand why they would rather hear "Merry Christmas" instead. Why some do protest things of this nature. This is of course civily. I think sometimes people forget to think about the shoe being on the other foot. Extremists want to force their beliefs, but they forget to think about how they would feel if someone was trying to force them to the other way of thinking. I also think that sometimes when something is protested like prayer out of schools, no "In God We Trust", no more "Merry Christmas" greetings that people fail to realize this is a change, that for those who believe or agree with, a change that's not wanted. Because they disagree or protest it they are sometimes thought of as ridiculous, going to far (I'm not talking about exremists), people wonder why they aren't passive, why the big deal, etc. My thoughts were that no matter which way you agree neither is lesser of a big deal, niether is ridiculous and niether should be passive in their beliefs. Therefore I say this... In the whole scheme of things not hearing "Merry Christmas" is not a big issue considering all things, but it still has a part in things being changed, things that some do not want changed. So, I can understand why one would disagree with not hearing Merry Christmas when checking out. Why one would try to keep it the way it is.

I understood why you brought up the money and other issues thing, but given that to respond to that effectively we'd get WAY off topic, I thought it best to just move on. I didn't mean to imply you were trying to take the thread off topic, or that I didn't understand your point. :)

I understand why some would prefer to hear "Merry Christmas" too - that's what they've ALWAYS heard, that's what they are USED TO hearing, and people don't like change. People, in general, are quite resistant to change, especially when it's in regards to something they don't have a problem with. But society must change in order to grow. I just really wish the people who get in such a tizzy about something like this would stop and consider what it means in the grand scheme of things. In the grand scheme of things could you spend your time fighting for something that makes an actual DIFFERENCE in your life or someone else's? Something that directly has to do with your faith, not something that has been introduced and popularized by commercialism. Say, for example, your local mall decided to not have Santa posing for pictures this year. You get ticked because you take your kids EVERY year and you want your Santa picture! But is it worth the fight, the time, the energy and so on to DEMAND Santa be in the mall when Santa isn't even an actual Christian icon? Of course coming to that line of thinking requires looking at things from outside of the box, which many people don't do. It's also embracing (or just accepting) a change that you didn't want and don't agree with. That's tough for people, I get that. But it doesn't mean that with a bit of reflection and less prompting from media talking heads (Bill O'Reilly comes to mind) we can't simply move on to other issues.

Some people might think that by my example I think people should just "give up" when change they don't like happens. I'd like to clarify - I think it's more important to pick your battles than fight them all. If you want your picture with Santa SO BAD that it's worth your time, energy and effort to fight for it, well, go right ahead. Same with the "Merry Christmas" thing. But I think if most people actually stopped and thought about it, they could probably think of something more deserving of their time. I prefer to spend my time here fighting for things that will make a real difference in the world, and in my opinion, what the clerk at Best Buy utters as I collect my bags makes no difference in my world whatsoever.

Don't Christmas and new years get celebrated within a week of each other. Don't most fundies celebrate the new year and Christmas. So maybe the store is saying Happy Holidays(plural as in two or more) to you in order to include the other holiday that celebrate a week after Christmas.

Wasn't Christmas only adopted by the Christians as a way to convert pagans that had a really good holiday that they didn't want to lose when the switched religions. Just like easter. Haven't all you fundies wondered what a rabbit that brings eggs has to due with the resurrection of Jesus?

The 'if you don't like it, leave' mentality is not necessarily one I agree with

Not necessarily? But sometimes you do agree with it?


. How about, if you don't like it, change it? If you don't like it, and other people don't like it, work to make it better?

And that is what Christians have been doing from the birth of this nation. Christians left a tyrannical country to come to America to practice freedom of religion.


I am happy in America,

Very good.


but that doesn't mean it is perfect- no society ever will be, everyone will have qualms with something- which is why it is our duty to not just sit back and accept the things we dislike about our country and say 'well, it'll never be perfect, so why try?' but instead to do our part to make improvements.

Correct.


Leaving an imperfect country does nothing except appease those who are either too stupid to see the problems or too apathetic to care that problems exist.

People have left imperfect countries before when the imperfections got unbearable.

As for me, I'm pretty tired about people beating up America in comparison to other countries because there is NO COMPARISON. America is head and shoulders above any country with respect to freedom and human rights.


And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?

I do not impose my beliefs on anyone. The fact is, that the United States is ruled by majority. Gays have the right to believe that gay marriage is valid. I have the right to believe the opposite. And since we, Christians and other people share the belief that only man and woman may be bound as husband and wife, and we are still the majority we have designed the government with that in mind.

When those who believe that gays have the right to marry come to power, then they may design their government any way they wish.

As for me, I believe gay marriage is wrong, I believe it is bad for the country, I believe it would undermine our economic system and that is what I deduce logically. In addition, it is against my religion. I am free to hold those beliefs and to tell others about my beliefs. That is the beauty of this country.


I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.

Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally....

You referenced my last post to you. I asked a question. Are you referring to something else I may have said to you previously? Please provide the reference because I don't know what you are talking about. As the saying goes, "I slept since then."

Sincerely,

De Maria

America is head and shoulders above any country with respect to freedom and human rights. Nah, other countries are equal or better - Canada for instance.

Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. That seems to be a dominant theme for you. Have you ever travelled somewhere where you were the minority?

Nah, other countries are equal or better - Canada for instance.

Too cold.


That seems to be a dominant theme for you. Have you ever travelled somewhere where you were the minority?

This very country. Abortion is the law of the land. Most Christians believe abortion is murder of the unborn.

We, responsible Christians, will continue to work through the Political System and the Law to have that overturned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

several years ago, disappointed over the retail push to have christmas stuff out starting in late sept, early oct at the latest, my wife and I started calling the corporate holiday marathon Christhankoween.

now, every year, when the blinking lights and ornaments are being shelved next to the back to school clearance racks, we blandly and coldy say

"oh goody. its Christhankoween already."

=P

but then I'm an irritable, cranky, judgemental hack and it gives me another thing to complain about.

Happy Festivus!

De Maria:

I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that. I really don’t have the time and energy to say the same thing in 10 different ways, hoping to make myself clear, and then have what I say picked apart condescendingly by you. This, therefore, is my final post on the mater.

You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure... perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean? Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is this: in certain situations, circumstances in a country can become unbearable and all hope of progress in the foreseeable future is lost- at which point, walking away may be justifiable. Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.

I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’- if I remember correctly, it was YOU who drew the comparison of the U.S. to other countries- and I did not respond that other countries were better or worse, but simply that I am happy in the U.S. but that, as with any society, there are imperfections and things with which I am not entirely pleased, and stated my belief that it is the responsibility of each citizen to work for the changes they wish to see.

Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’ because I believe that religious holidays need not be recognized by corporations (which exploit the holiday and distort the true meaning anyway). If you think that an attack on my credibility by painting me as ‘unpatriotic’, or acting as though you are a victim to my relentless personal attacks, will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.

‘Again you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I’m saying?

I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’ To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree). Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.

Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws for those who do not share those religious beliefs- doing so converts religious moral law to federal and/or state law, and therefore makes our country a theocracy. You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [I] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement. If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do… trying to enact a law prohibiting straight people from marrying- telling straight people that they can either find a nice person of the same sex and settle down, be alone, or settle for a relationship that deserves no legal recognition.

Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law- if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. Plain and simple. But don’t think that others, who do believe that gay marriage is fine based on their religious beliefs, or even based upon secular moral beliefs that reinforce a respect for the equality of all people, should be limited in legal protection and unable to marry the person they love. THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs. Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.

Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic. I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, regardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.

If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday, not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you) say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.

De Maria:

I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that.. .

Are you sure?


You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure...

To make the point that in some cases you believe people should leave if they don't like the country in which they live. Its an anchor point. Establishing a point of agreement. You made it sound as though we disagree completely. As though leaving was altogether bad. But you did not make an absolute stance, since "necessarily" is absolute then 'not" necessarily is not..


perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean?

Well, yeah. The thought had crossed my mind.


Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is... walking away may be justifiable.

My point exactly. It is obvious that our forefathers in this country left their homeland for that very reason.


Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.

And you see, coming from you that's sounds strange. Because you seem to object to Christians trying make things better for society and our country.

Ask yourself this question. If you don't care whether a person says "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas", then why do you object when a Christian wants to say Merry Christmas?

And if you do care when one says "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays", why don't you understand when others care about it as well?

In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?


I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’-...

That's good. I simply made an explanation as to why I made the statement originally.


Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’... will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.

No actually. I'm just pointing out that you are very prone to tell people what you believe but you object vehemently when anyone expresses a belief which disagrees with yours.


I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’

Note that I punctuated that with, "that is what I believe." Not with, "that is what you should believe". Therefore, I am simply informing you on where I stand on the matter.

If you feel that is an imposition of my belief upon yours, then where is the basis for a civil discussion? I can't speak my mind. Whenever I do, I am accused of imposing my belief.


To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree).

Well, you didn't quite quote yourself. You kind of tweaked the language a bit to make it more palatable. Your exact words were:


And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief. I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.


Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.

Uh? I think it is the other way around. I see a great big difference in the population getting together and peacefully voting whose belief will be implemented by majority rule AND the idea that I am imposing my belief upon anybody.

Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority. Its not a perfect system, but it works better than any other democracy or other government in the world today. In my opinion.


Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws...

I don't agree. Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof are intimate parts of our being. We can't shed them and act as though we believe one thing at one time and another thing the next.

Just as you have stated that you believe in standing up for your nonreligious beliefs, we believe in standing up for our religious beliefs.

And that seems to be your only problem. You don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. But you don't even want to consider that a majority of people might come to agreement on a Christian ethic as a part of our rule of law.


You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [I] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement.

Which you don't find quite idiotic or ignorant when you make the same accusation towards me? Very interesting.


If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do…

In other words, you believe everyone should be apathetic. You want Christians to quit trying to make the world better as they see fit.


Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law-

And I believe they should.


if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs,.

Well, this is way off topic, but the argument isn't as simple as you make it. And the fact is that all rights have their limits. And imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.


THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs.

And again, if homosexuals gather enough strength to change society's opinion, they can change the law. Just as abortionists have changed the law in their favor.


Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.


I too will let reasonable people decide.


Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic.

Agreed.


I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, regardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.

Again, you are characterising me as making an "asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, irregardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday."

Obviously, anyone who reads my statements will see that my only insistence is that Christians also have the right to object and that Christians should also vote wth their dollars.


If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday,

Which we do.


not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you)

Not true. It is a strictly Christian tradition. Just because pagans may have also done something similar does not mean we copied them.

However, even if we did, which we didn't, what's the harm? And, what do you care? You aren't Christian.


say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.

Actually, its not a MAJOR issue.. Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our Holy Day[/B In fact, its our [B]"Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.

That;s freedom!

As for major issues. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and visiting the lonely. Those are major Christian issues.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Living in a metropolitan town helps also.

What change are you afraid of?


Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

That is fine. Please stick to legal means to do so.

We, responsible Christians, will continue to work through the Political System and the Law to have that overturned.

De Maria

OK... no matter how I feel about all the other points in this fray, you just cannot whine about how those who aren't happy in this country won't leave, and then state proudly that you are happy to stay here and fight for what you believe through the political system.

You just got to drop the "if you dont like it leave" angle you threw in there. It weakens your argument.

Every time I hear that... and most of the time lately its someone b!tching about how people who are against the war are against the country and should leave... it just makes me think of 5th grade debate.

As a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

My son will learn about God through his family and his church. I don't need his school or his favorite toystore to indoctrinate him in any religious beliefs.

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally. I said very clearly in my first post of the things Christians specifically were doing, I never said they shouldn't do them, so for you to ask if I think Christians should not be allowed to protest and then say "That's what I wanted you to say" is ridiculous and pompous. Read more carefully and you will understand the messages instead of reading what you THINK I'm saying and trying to stir up trouble.

You've just confirmed that my simple words, "that is what I wanted you to say" were right on the money. I meant that I simiply wanted you to clarify your stance. Previously you sounded very one-sided. But when you specified that you believed in those freedoms also for Christians, that is what I wanted you to say. In other words, there is no argument there.


You've done it again with "are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?". Where in my post, in ANY post did I say or indicate that?

See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question. Since all you mentioned were Christians misbehaving, I wanted you to clarify whether you are insinuating that only Christians misbehave?

A simple "no" would have sufficed.


And passing off the information I passed on about pages being torn from books as "one person's allegations" and there is no "proof" implies you think either 1. I'm a liar or 2. The staff at my county library is full of liars. But you apparently think everyone is "out to get the Christians" so of course this must be made up.

I guess I need more than a stranger's say so on the internet. I'm sorry if you think that means I am accusing you of lying. But I've met quite a few people who make unsubstantiated statements. Now, if you could point to a headline or a news article or some tangible proof that Christians are known to go into your library and tear up books, then I'll be more likely to believe it.

Just last week I was in a debate with an atheist who said that "all intelligent people in this century were atheist". I challenged that statement and she got all bent out of shape. But it seems strange to me that only atheists should be intelligent and only Christians tear books apart in libraries.


Either way, I no longer wish to discuss things with you, as you are rude and try to provoke people. Consider yourself officially added to my "ignore" list.

Thanks. I reserve the right to respond to any anti-Christian messages you might write however.

Sincerely,

De Maria

OK... no matter how I feel about all the other points in this fray, you just cannot whine about how those who aren't happy in this country won't leave, and then state proudly that you are happy to stay here and fight for what you believe through the political system.

Like you are whining now?


you just got to drop the "if you dont like it leave" angle you threw in there. It weakens your argument.

I don't think so.


every time I hear that... and most of the time lately its someone b!tching about how people who are against the war are against the country and should leave... it just makes me think of 5th grade debate.

That wasn't my point though, was it? When you decide to discuss what I actually said, let me know.


as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?


my son will learn about God through his family and his church. I don't need his school or his favorite toystore to indoctrinate him in any religious beliefs.

That's great. But that is pretty much off topic. There's another thread on prayer in school or you can start one of your own.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I'm whining by pointing out how you are using a double standard in your argument when you wonder why people who are unhappy with the state of affairs in the US just don't leave?

Really? That's ALL you have?? The "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground argument?

Know what? you are right.

Though I agree with a lot of what you say, you are absolutely correct. You have the right to lace your discussions with faulty reasoning and bad logic. Its like the person with bad breath that is speaking useful things but you just can't stand to be near them. Oh well. Never mind. Carry on...

really? thats ALL you have??? the "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground arguement?
Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

I was thinking the same thing. The word "troll" is also coming to mind, but maybe that's just me...

I'm whining by pointing out how you are using a double standard in your argument when you wonder why people who are unhappy with the state of affairs in the US just don't leave?

Really? That's ALL you have?? The "im not but you are" rubber-glue playground argument?

I think you are projecting. Its kind of hard to debate intelligently with "got your panties tied in a knot" type comments. Since you had nothing more intelligent to contribute, I simply gave you the old faithful, "back at ya" response.

So, the old rubber glue playground response is still handy when someone makes juvenile comments.


know what? you are right.

I know.


though I agree with a lot of what you say, you are absolutely correct. You have the right to lace your discussions with faulty reasoning and bad logic.

Point out the faulty reasoning and bad logic. Please make sure and quote me. It seems a trait of the folks on this board to make up arguments and attribute them to their opponents in order to pretend to win an argument.


its like the person with bad breath that is speaking useful things but you just can't stand to be near them. Oh well. Never mind. Carry on...

There you go again. Back at you, fella.

Yes, that is all she has. I smell a thread closure looming.

He.

If you can close it, do so.

I was thinking the same thing. The word "troll" is also coming to mind, but maybe that's just me....

No, I thought so too.

I really disagree with a lot of the anger and frustration revolving around this issue.

Here in the US, your can NO LONGER PRETEND TO BE MARTYRS FOR YOUR BELIEFS. THE WORLD IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU. STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT!

Nobody is picking on you by trying to include others who don't agree with you or share your beliefs. Nobody is putting down your holiday by not saying it by name- they're simply acknowledging the fact that our country is not a Theocracy, not everyone celebrates Christmas- so why make that assumption?

People who are shopping at this time of year could be doing so for a number of reasons- how is a store associate supposed to know what religion each customer they encounter is a member of, which holiday each customer celebrates and how to adequately wish that customer an enjoyable holiday season? And, on top of that, why give the associate a hard time? If you're so against the consumerism of the season, why would you put a minimum wage over-worked employee through hell for a policy that they didn't implement, and which they would likely lose their jobs for breaking? That's just the spirit of christmas these days, I suppose, hmm?

I would think it odd for someone to wish me a merry christmas if I were in a store- how do they know I'm not Jewish? Muslim? Or hell, even an atheist?

I would be insulted that someone would make an assumption about my religious beliefs, and actually am happy that people use more generic terms when wishing me well. In a situation where we don't have much time to get to know someone on a personal level, a wish of happiness during a season where many people are celebrating SOMETHING is welcome in my book.

Demanding that everyone acknowledge that it's the CHRISTMAS season implies that there is very little respect for those of other religious beliefs- while it may be the christmas season for you, it is NOT for everyone else. When do others get to demand, say, the Happy Chaunnuka they deserve? Are their beliefs not as signifcant as yours?

Why people focus so much on this is beyond me. Do you think Jesus would really give two s if people said 'Merry Christmas', 'Happy Channuka', 'Happy Ramadan', 'Happy Quanza', 'Happy Winter Solstice'... as long as they were being good to one another, loving eachother, and wishing eachother well? Would Jesus become as irate as many Christians I've seen over this issue?

We have no right and no place to mandate the religious beliefs of others- nor to mandate the holidays other people celebrate- so why make generalizations that may offend others? If you're offended by not being acknowledge directly, imagine the offense to those who are directly excluded in a 'Merry Christmas' wish-

Please.

I really think that there are bigger battles to fight than this, don't you?

I case you haven't noticed Christ is the reason for the season. For those who are not Christian and hate Christians you can pretend the holiday does not exist. Don't put decorations on your house, don't buy a christmas tree and don't get you kids presents and you can also go to work on the 25th. I don't understand why other religions or athiests are trying to dilute a christian celebration by trying to make it their own by saying Happy holiday. What is the Holiday for, I will tell you it is about the birth of our savior. If you don't believe in Him & it bothers you, lock yourself up in your house and cpme out on the 26th when the season is over. For every Holiday there is a reason! 4th of July -Independence, verterans day, memorial day etc all have reason for the day. The reason for the 25th of December is to celebrate the birth of Christ. It is not just a "holiday" for no reason.

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.


I am a Christian and I have been to 12 different countries on all 5 contenets so I am more likely than not more exposed than you are. So don't equate athiesim to being open minded because I can argue that atheist are the most close minded people on the planet. But I won't go there.

So vindictive. Why?

margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.

You continually make statements such as these. That is a clear example of anti-Christian bigotry.

This is clear evidence, that if Christians feel victimized, it is because of people like you.

I case you havnt noticed Christ is the reason for the season.

Clichés make poor arguments. Just an FYI.


for those who are not Christian and hate Christians

Since when does not celebrating the holidays of a religion one has no belief in make them hateful towards that religion? Christians don't celebrate Yom Kippur- can I then logically assume that they have a hatred of all things Jewish?

Apparently, by your logic, I can. So shame on you, you anti-semite!


Dont put decorations on your house, dont buy a christmas tree and dont get you kids presents and you can also go to work on the 25th.

So, those are the perks of your holiday? Wow, I thought it was a celebration of the birth of your Savior- but now that I see the things a Christian points out as highlights of the holiday- decorations, presents, and a day off from work- heck, maybe I oughta convert. If that's what it's really all about, I mean... who wouldn't want that!


i dont understand why other religions or athiests are trying to dilute a christian celebration by trying to make it their own by saying Happy holiday

Hmm... the stealing of one religion's celebratory traditions and adapting them to different systems of beliefs... interesting that something along those lines would offend you. Google 'pagan roots of Christmas traditions' and see what you come up with. Would you pay any mind to a Pagan complaining about you diluting their holiday and usurping their traditions?

Not that that's the reason people say 'Happy Holidays' anyway... but more on that below.


What is the Holiday for, i will tell you it is about the birth of our savior.

For your holiday, yes, that's what it is about. Well sort of. It's actually more of a celebration of the incarnation, God become human- not really the 'happy birthday, jesus' celebration so many Christians choose to celebrate. But in any case, it is critical that you recognize that while that is what YOUR holiday may be about, it is not the only holiday celebrated this time of year, and it is NOT the reason for all other holidays this time of year. Making that assumption is not really the best way to present yourself as an intelligent person.


If you dont beleive in Him & it bothers you, lock yourself up in your house and cpme out on the 26th when the season is over.

Not bothered by Christmas itself, but rather by the insistence that everyone wish everyone, regardless of actual religious belief, a 'Merry Christmas'- doesn't that seem quite foolish, and actually cause the meaning of your holiday to be further diminished? Saying specific words to one another does not cause people to come to a deeper recognition of the meaning of your holiday- would you be happy if the phrase 'Merry Christmas' gradually became as generic a wish as 'Happy Holidays'? Wishing a 'happy holiday' includes those whose religious beliefs you may not know (i.e. a store associate speaking to a customer). Wish your Christian friends, Christian family members, and fellow church-goers a Merry Christmas. But why force words upon others to whom they have no significance? Is it really the intent of Christians to drain all meaning from their holiday all together?

Apparently so.

margog85 disagrees: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.


Maybe not all Christians- but I believe you and Soldout fit quite nicely into that category.

Yes, I am Christian.


And people like ME make you feel victimized


You said it yourself.


? Hahaha- your'e joking, right?

Are you?

Once Thanksgiving is over, I will begin celebrating the birth of my Savior. If that offends anybody, well there is a lot that offends me.

That's totally true
I mean, He saved our lives

De Maria

Just an FYI, I am no longer responding to your posts beyond this point. You take what I say out of context, twist the meaning, and respond with sarcasm... it has become increasingly clear that if I am looking for intelligent debate, it cannot be had with you-

I was mildly entertained by your ignorance for a time, but now you're simply becoming irritating.

So please, do not interpret my lack of response as you having made a point or left me with nothing to say. It has just reached a point where I no longer wish to engage in this circular discourse with you.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!

Clichés make poor arguments. Just an FYI.

Lol.. the cliché actually fit perfectly with my argument. I could not have found a better way to articulate it. Jesus is the reason for the season amen! So those who don't like it to bad so sad.


Since when does not celebrating the holidays of a religion one has no belief in make them hateful towards that religion? Christians don't celebrate Yom Kippur- can I then logically assume that they have a hatred of all things Jewish?

Apparently, by your logic, I can. So shame on you, you anti-semite!

Mmm.. I don't think you understand what I meant. I was actually directing that you, not so much people in general because it quite obvious that you have some hatred and bitterness towards the Christmas holiday and it is most probably because you hate christians just like rest of the world does. But I am not mad at you, for that, noo.. Jesus said just as he was hated so will we, His followers, be hated so I am not the least bit surprised. When other religions celebrate their holidays Ramadan, yom kippur etc and they do their rituals no one cares but when Christians want to celebrate their holiday people make such a big deal about it. Why don't you call Yom kippur and Ramadan "happy Holiday"? If a store does not want to remain nuetral then they should not say happy holiday either. I think that is fair enough. And by the way, I am not an anti-semite my best friend is Jewish and as Christians we are called to love and pray for the Jews. Our savior is a Jew! So if you want to continue to have an intelligent adult discussion about this issue, I think you need to stop your unwarranted name calling and revise the terms of use of this website.



So, those are the perks of your holiday? Wow, I thought it was a celebration of the birth of your Savior- but now that I see the things a Christian points out as highlights of the holiday- decorations, presents, and a day off from work- heck, maybe I oughta convert. If that's what it's really all about, I mean... who wouldn't want that!

Yes! Those are the perks of our holiday! Duh yes that is how we celebrate the birth of our savior. Gift giving, feeding the poor, christmas trees, christmas lights, day off from work (love that) getting together with family, singing christmas carrols e.t.c. It's the most wonderful time of the year! The highlight and the reason for this celebration is the precious Son of God and we sing praises to Him and celebrate his birth. Maybe you should convert, you will love it, you won't be disappointed.



Hmm... the stealing of one religion's celebratory traditions and adapting them to different systems of beliefs... interesting that something along those lines would offend you. Google 'pagan roots of Christmas traditions' and see what you come up with. Would you pay any mind to a Pagan complaining about you diluting their holiday and usurping their traditions?

At least the pagons had a reason for the holiday. Not just "happy holiday" for no reason.




For your holiday, yes, that's what it is about. Well sort of. It's actually more of a celebration of the incarnation, God become human- not really the 'happy birthday, jesus' celebration so many Christians choose to celebrate. But in any case, it is critical that you recognize that while that is what YOUR holiday may be about, it is not the only holiday celebrated this time of year, and it is NOT the reason for all other holidays this time of year. Making that assumption is not really the best way to present yourself as an intelligent person.

If you didn't know this, I hate to be the one to break this to you but Thanksgiving was actually established to give thanks to GOD. So every time you eat that turkey remember that. (It may not taste very good anymore) And if you are talking about New years Holiday then people should just say Happy New Year, why complicate things and cause controversy for nothing.



Not bothered by Christmas itself, but rather by the insistence that everyone wish everyone, regardless of actual religious belief, a 'Merry Christmas'- doesn't that seem quite foolish, and actually cause the meaning of your holiday to be further diminished? Saying specific words to one another does not cause people to come to a deeper recognition of the meaning of your holiday- would you be happy if the phrase 'Merry Christmas' gradually became as generic a wish as 'Happy Holidays'? Wishing a 'happy holiday' includes those whose religious beliefs you may not know (i.e. a store associate speaking to a customer). Wish your Christian friends, Christian family members, and fellow church-goers a Merry Christmas. But why force words upon others to whom they have no significance? Is it really the intent of Christians to drain all meaning from their holiday all together?

The store clerks can just say Happy new year if they want to stay neutral. Because what ever you want to call it "Happy holidays" or "Happy Cup Cake" we all know what the underlying holiday is about. Its about the birth of Christ. So its just like saying I am not going to say to people Happy 4th July I am just going to say "happy holiday". You can call it "happy holiday" if you want but is does not change the fact that it is independence day. So the bottom line is no one is forced to participate in the Christmas cheer if you don't want to. If someone says merry christmas to you, just don't respond.

True, Christmas is the Christian celebration of the incarnation- however, other holidays are celebrated this time of year. Why does Christmas deserve specific recognition above all other holidays? Why assume it is what someone else is celebrating
Christmas has special recognition, it always has and always will. Get over it. 7 out of 10 people you will meet in america are christian and more than 1 of 3 people you will meet in the whole world are Christians. Christmas is celebrated everywhere around the world so you need to just get over your bitterness towards it. Stop worrying about it and just be glad you get a day off on Dec 25.

Christmas is celebrated everywhere around the world so you need to just get over your bitterness towards it. stop worrying about it and just be glad you get a day off on Dec 25.I hate to burst your bubble but most people celebrate Christmas not because of Jesus but because of Santa and gifts for children.

De Maria

Just an FYI, I am no longer responding to your posts beyond this point.

That is fine. I'd simply like to clarify the following:


You take what I say out of context, twist the meaning, and respond with sarcasm... it has become increasingly clear that if I am looking for intelligent debate, it cannot be had with you-

No. I quoted you verbatim. You made an anti-Christian remark. Lets see it again:


margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.


Show me the twist? Oh, I forgot, you ain't responding.


I was mildly entertained by your ignorance for a time, but now you're simply becoming irritating.

Yeah, yeah. What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.


So please, do not interpret my lack of response as you having made a point or left me with nothing to say. It has just reached a point where I no longer wish to engage in this circular discourse with you.

I reserve the right to address your anti-Christian comments.


HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!

Everyday is a holiday.

Bye (http://mdechristi.googlepages.com/mypages)

lol.. the cliche actually fit perfectly with my argument. I could not have found a better way to articulate it. Jesus is the reason for the season amen! so those who dont like it to bad so sad.

I understand that Jesus is the reason for YOUR holiday. But not all holidays this time of year. Your clich&#233; may make be true for your as a Christian- Jesus being a reason for the Christmas season- but Jesus hasn't got a thing to do with other holidays being celebrated.



mmm.. i dont think you understand what i meant. I was actually directing that you, not so much people in general because it quite obvious that you have some hatred and bitterness towards the Christmas holiday and it is most probably because you hate christians just like rest of the world does. but i am not mad at ya, for that, noo.. Jesus said just as he was hated so will we, His followers, be hated so i am not the least bit surprised. When other religions celebrate thier holidays Ramadan, yom kippur etc and they do their rituals no one cares but when Christians want to celebrate their holiday people make such a big deal about it.

Just to make this clear, I have no hatred towards Christians. I, like anyone else, become irritated by self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals, regardless of their religious beliefs. Based on experience, I tend to find that the majority of people I've encountered who embody those traits also identify as Christian- and many of the posts within this discussion have simply reinforced that and provided more examples of nasty, sarcastic, and self-righteous Christians who refuse to consider an alternate perspective.

That is not hatred or bigotry or bitterness- I have nothing against Christmas and I do not hate Christians- You can celebrate your holiday all you like- my point is, not everyone needs to recognize your holiday specifically when there are other people celebrating other holidays at this time- How can you expect a store associate to know from a brief encounter that you are a Christian and you are celebrating Christmas? Rather than make the assumption and exclude others, 'Happy Holdiays' is more suitable- just a general wishing of a pleasant season and enjoyment in your celebration of whichever holiday you choose to celebrate- why that is such an issue makes no sense to me.


Yes! Those are the perks of our holiday! duh yes that is how we celebrate the birth of our savior. Gift giving, feeding the poor, christmas trees, christmas lights, day off from work (love that) getting together with family, singing christmas carrols e.t.c. Its the most wonderful time of the year! The highlight and the reason for this celebration is the precious Son of God and we sing praises to Him and celebrate his birth. Maybe you should convert, you will love it, you wont be disappointed.

Christmas is the best time of the year? Really? Better than Easter, then? Aren't both equally important to Christians? The incarnation of God in human flesh and blood, an individual who is equally human and divine… and then His death and resurrection for the atonement of sin and reconciliation of man and God?

But hey… maybe to some Christians, Christmas is 'better'. Not many people exchange Easter presents, right? And if the perks of this holiday outweigh the perks of Easter (just a day off, no decorations or presents) then I guess it's better and more important, hmm?


Atleast the pagons had a reason for the holiday. Not just "happy holiday" for no reason.

'Happy Holidays' is not without reason- it's simply something said by an individual who declines to make an assumption in regards to the religious belief of the person they are wishing it to.


If you didnt know this, i hate to be the one to break this to you but Thanksgiving was actually established to give thanks to GOD. So everytime you eat that turkey remember that. (It may not taste very good anymore) And if you are talking about New years Holiday then people should just say Happy New Year, why complicate things and cause controversy for nothing.

Ummm… okay, well, if you didn't know this, then I hate to break it to you, but there are other religious and cultural celebrations at this time of year as well- not everyone is celebrating only Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years and nothing else. For example: Hannukah (Jewish), Bodhi Day (Buddhist), Eid-al-Adha (Muslim), Kwanza (African-American), Yule (Pagan)…. So the controversy isn't for 'nothing'- unless you consider others' religious beliefs to be insignificant. Is that the case?

De Maria-

Although I said I would no longer respond to you, you asked for clarification, which I will gladly provide. You accused me of anti-Christian bigotry and cite my ‘admission’ of such bigotry when I made the following statement:

"Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?"

That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have. I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

So, if you want to know where you are twisting things, there's example number one. And, as for this quote:

margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.


This is simply a comment I had made in response to the way the Christians, particularly you, have conducted themselves in this discussion. This is an example of taking things out of context and twisting them as you see fit to make yourself look better and me look like a disrespectful bigot- meanwhile, my entire argument throughout this thread is advocating respect for all religions at this time of year by wishing a generic Happy Holidays if you just don’t know what the other person celebrates.

Why is that such a terrible thing to stand for?

Inclusion and respect are apparently not values you hold in very high esteem.

De Maria-

Although I said I would no longer respond to you, you asked for clarification, which I will gladly provide. You accused me of anti-Christian bigotry and cite my ‘admission’ of such bigotry when I made the following statement:

"Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?"

Correct.


That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

Let me give you an example. When slave owners owned African slaves, they called them lazy because slaves were reluctant to work for nothing and disliked being whipped when they inadvertently did something wrong. Slave owners were bigotted because they made a generalization based on their limited knowledge of African people.

In the same way, you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way and when Christians defend themselves, why according to you, they're cndescending, self-righteous and paranoid. You have made a bigotted statement based on your limited knowledge.

Now, I could see if we or especially I, had gone to your atheist or whatever forum and started harassing you. But I didn't.


I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.


So, if you want to know where you are twisting things, there's example number one. And, as for this quote:

It was a rhetorical question. I had highlighted to those who may be following this discussion that I had not twisted your words as you made it appear. In fact, you are the one constantly portraying yourself as being victimized.


margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.

This is simply a comment I had made in response to the way the Christians, particularly you, have conducted themselves in this discussion.

I believe I have conducted myself admirably. Unlike you, I don't make up words and put them in anyone's mouth. I have simply responded to your exact words.


This is an example of taking things out of context and twisting them as you see fit to make yourself look better and me look like a disrespectful bigot-

No, its an example of your portraying yourself as a victim.


meanwhile, my entire argument throughout this thread is advocating respect for all religions at this time of year by wishing a generic Happy Holidays if you just don’t know what the other person celebrates.

And my entire argument is that everyone can vote with their dollars. But somehow you've twisted that into disrespect of all religions except Christianity?


Why is that such a terrible thing to stand for?

And I could ask you the same thing. Why is it such a terrible thing to stand for Christianity?

Hey lady, you can stand for whatever you want. Just don't expect me to agree if it is an anti-Christian stance.


Inclusion

Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

When you understand these words, you'll have no more trouble with Christians:

Matthew 12
23 He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Matthew 10
38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

I follow Jesus. I don't care if anyone excludes me from anything else and I don't want to be included in anything that is anti-Christian.


and respect are apparently not values you hold in very high esteem.

On the contrary. I respect people enough to read their messages and respond to what they actually say. Unlike you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I hate to burst your bubble but most people celebrate Christmas not because of Jesus but because of Santa and gifts for children.

If 76%+ of americans are Christains I hate to burst your bubble that they are celebrating Jesus' birth; the traditional outward expresion is giving gifts, santa, christmas lights tree e.t.c (love it!) and FYI.. lol Santa is "St Nicholas" a christian Saint so next time you take your kids to see him, remember the implication. :)

That history has been completely lost. To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade. The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones. The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.

Just to make this clear, I have no hatred towards Christians. I, like anyone else, become irritated by self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals, regardless of their religious beliefs. Based on experience, I tend to find that the majority of people I’ve encountered who embody those traits also identify as Christian- and many of the posts within this discussion have simply reinforced that and provided more examples of nasty, sarcastic, and self-righteous Christians who refuse to consider an alternate perspective.

That is not hatred or bigotry or bitterness- I have nothing against Christmas and I do not hate Christians- You can celebrate your holiday all you like- my point is, not everyone needs to recognize your holiday specifically when there are other people celebrating other holidays at this time- How can you expect a store associate to know from a brief encounter that you are a Christian and you are celebrating Christmas? Rather than make the assumption and exclude others, ‘Happy Holdiays’ is more suitable- just a general wishing of a pleasant season and enjoyment in your celebration of whichever holiday you choose to celebrate- why that is such an issue makes no sense to me.

So I just don't get it, if christians are really self righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals then why are you on the Christian domain of the cite. Why don't you spend more time on the other hundred of topics out there on this site. Why come and judge and harass Christians about what they believe? We don't have any problems with people celebrating there own religions but the reason why christmas is more prominent is because it hold the largest majority of people & in a democracy majority rules. It just like if I decided to go live in a predominantly Muslim country, I am not going to take offence when they celebrate their holidays and put up icons that represent their beliefs. I am not going to start demanding that they consider that I am christian and have them show as much prominence for my religion to make it "fair". If you live in America you have to come to terms with the fact that it is a predominantly Christian society and if that really bothers you, there are plenty of other countries that are more dominantly athiestic, or budist of Jewish or Muslim etc So people should go where they are comfortable. I know if I grew up in country that was mostly muslim I would not like it there, I know I would migrate somewhere else. So I am tiered of people whining about Christians and attcking them constantly in this country.


Christmas is the best time of the year? Really? Better than Easter, then? Aren’t both equally important to Christians? The incarnation of God in human flesh and blood, an individual who is equally human and divine… and then His death and resurrection for the atonement of sin and reconciliation of man and God?

But hey… maybe to some Christians, Christmas is ‘better’. Not many people exchange Easter presents, right? And if the perks of this holiday outweigh the perks of Easter (just a day off, no decorations or presents) then I guess it’s better and more important, hmm?

It is obviously the biggest Christian celebration because it marks the Birth of our savior and everything else that follows is equally important.






Ummm… okay, well, if you didn’t know this, then I hate to break it to you, but there are other religious and cultural celebrations at this time of year as well- not everyone is celebrating only Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years and nothing else. For example: Hannukah (Jewish), Bodhi Day (Buddhist), Eid-al-Adha (Muslim), Kwanza (African-American), Yule (Pagan)…. So the controversy isn’t for ‘nothing’- unless you consider others’ religious beliefs to be insignificant. Is that the case?

Umm.. okey Like I said all these people are can celebrate their holidays, but should not take offence to Christmas being the most prominent because most these groups individaully represent a fraction of a percentage of the US population.

That history has been completely lost. To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade. The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones. The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.

Like I said, think about the implication of santa "St Nic". You have convinced yourself that Santa has no Christian overtones so that you can include yourself and your kids in the Chrismas celebration without feeling like a complete hypocryt. So if pretending santa has no Christian over tones helps you feel better about enjoying the perks of Christmas then good for you. HO HO HO Merry CHRIST-mas :D

That history has been completely lost.

Sounds like wishful thinking. All you have to do is watch the Peanuts Christmas cartoon and Linus will explain to you the reason for Christmas.


To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade.

Most cities. But in every city, Christians pray and sing joyous songs explaining the reason for our joy. In fact, much of what we do in our celebrations is in our churches. I'm sure you'll find a reason to object to that as well.


The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones.

Never is a very strong word. The very word "Santa" means Saint. In fact, Santa Clause is derivative of Saint Nicholas, a canonized Saint of the Catholic Church. His very presence in a Red Suit and Camauro Hat signifies that he was a Bishop of the Catholic Church in his life.


The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.

Not so. Note the Christmas decorations at this major department store. Many of which include religious icons:
JCPenney department (http://www.jcpenney.com/jcp/SearchDepartment.aspx?siteID=700033538&JSEnabled=false&SearchString=christmas+decorations&submit+search.x=0&submit+search.y=0)

Same here:
Macy*s - Search Results (http://www1.macys.com/search/index.ognc?SearchTarget=*&Keyword=christmas+&KEYWORD_GO_BUTTON.x=0&KEYWORD_GO_BUTTON.y=0&KEYWORD_GO_BUTTON=KEYWORD_GO_BUTTON)

And the nativity float at the Christmas parades:

YouTube - LH parade nativity float (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LDis3qAHX0)

Nativity float steals show : Local News : The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4286423,00.html)

Lutheran Hour float brings "Joy to the World" in 2008 Rose Parade > South Wisconsin District of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod > News (http://swd.lcms.org/Newsevents/News/tabid/2853/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/2592/Default.aspx)

The true meaning of Christmas is far from forgotten history.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Like i said, think about the implication of santa "St Nic". You have convinced yourself that Santa has no Christian overtones so that you can include yourself and your kids in the Chrismas celebration without feeling like a complete hypocryt. So if pretending santa has no Christian over tones helps you feel better about enjoying the perks of Christmas then good for you. HO HO HO Merry CHRIST-mas :DActually you have it the wrong way around. I and my family fully know from the onset that there is no link to religion at all with the Santa thing, how could they, they've never been exposed to it. But many a religious christian celebrates Christmas the same way I do - now that where the hypocrisy comes in.

The true meaning of Christmas is far from forgotten history.

That not what I was saying but thank you for your input.

Actually you have it the wrong way around. I and my family fully know from the onset that there is no link to religion at all with the Santa thing, how could they, they've never been exposed to it. But many a religious christian celebrates Christmas the same way I do - now that where the hypocrisy comes in.

Correction You and your family WISH from the onset there is no link to religion with Santa thing... lol are you serious right now. You may not have told your children the underlying implication of what they are doing. So just because you choose deliberate concealment and misrepresentation of the true meaning behind perks of christmas does not mean it does not exist. You have adapted to doing the things that were traditionally created to celebrate the Birth of a God you don't believe in, so you are the hypocryt and your kids will find out sooner or later what the underlying reason is. I sure hope you don't have an angel or a star on top of your Christmas tree because that actually represents the Star of Bethleham that led the wise men to Jesus. And when you tell your kids santa got them gifts just remember, that is a Christian tradition that was derived from St Nicholas a catholic saint who brought gifts for poor children on Christmas. So if you are true atheist you really should not participate in Christmas light, trees gift giving, Santa e.t.c because all you are doing is sending mixed messages to your children.

Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1220_021220_solstice.html)

" Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1220_021220_solstice.html)

" Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

Pretty weird response. Was the "solstice" born in a stable and laid in a manger? I didn't think so.

Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. If you wish to celebrate the solstice, it would be mighty funny doing it by singing Joy to the World the Lord has come.. or Come all ye faithful... or by yelling Jesus Christ at the top of your lungs.

Sincerely,

De Maria

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only.

If you are referring to me, please read what I actually said. NonChristians on this topic have shown a nasty tendency to make up arguments and attribute them to others in order to shoot them down.


I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

And so are we. My complaint was directed at a nonChristian who objected to my defense of Christianity on a Christian forum.


Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin.

I think you need to study up on real history if you believe that cacamaimie nonChristian spin on history.


The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule.

Yule, the winter solstice, is not Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. We do no celebrate the winter solstice. We celebrate the birth of Christ.


This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

No. I've never wondered about that.
1. As I explained before. St. Nick is St. Nicholas. He is a verifiable person who was once Bishop of Myra:
Saint Nicholas ::: A Real Person? (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=37)

2. I actually enjoyed reading Norse mythology when I was young. But I knew it was fiction.

3. The Christmas tree and the yule log are two different traditions. They are related to Christ birth only in the fact that Christians decided to use these ornaments to celebrate the birth of Christ.

4. The giving of gifts to children during Christmas is an ancient custom amongst Christians derived from the fact that the three Kings brought gifts to the baby Jesus.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children. We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas. Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway? Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology? Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.

Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season. I am free to shop where I wish. Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.

I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children.

The tradition of giving gifts on Christmas predates St. Nick.


We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas.

Yes, we do. It is an old and cherished Christmas tradition. In many Christian countries, Santa was unknown until recently. In those countries, the Three Kings brought the gifts.


Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway?

On Christmas, we observe and celebrate the birth of Christ. The Saints are examples of how Christmas should be observed and celebrated.


Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology?

I believe that is way beyond the scope of this topic. Suffice to say that there is no evidence that the Norse myths are true.

Christian history is not mythology. It is documented history with eyewitness testimony.


Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.

I know that a legend of that incident exists. However no one has ever been able to produce documented eyewitness testimony.


Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

Thanks. But we know.


I am free to shop where I wish.

That is correct.


Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned.

I intend to.


Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.

Thank God we live in a free country. No one is stopping you from celebrating your Holy day. We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours. And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.

Sincerely,

De Maria

We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours.
Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?


And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.
The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively. Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.

Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?

No.


The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively.

To irritate me? Where did you get that impression?


Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.

Well, at least your tone is less aggressive and demeaning than the other nonChristians which I've spoken to on this forum. But you are either misunderstanding my posts or still putting words in my mouth. Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.

Because if you read my messages, you will see that I advocate "voting with your dollars". I couldn't care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores. And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want. When our Christian friends have a cause which is not unreasonable, we rally behind them.

Why does that bother you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there. What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there.

Then what's the problem? Is it that you don't want me to tell them why I won't shop there? It would be pretty stupid for us to boycott a store without telling them why we're boycotting. They wouldn't know how to correct their behavior.


What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

As for me, I recommend you vote with your dollars. If you don't like the way a store is treating you, let them know why you won't be back. As the saying goes, "the customer is always right."

Sincerely,

De Maria

Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.
OK, for example:

Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our Holy Day In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.
Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.

I could care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores.
And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it, just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.

And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want.
So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are, so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?

Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1220_021220_solstice.html)

" Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

I know the History of how Christmas came about so you don't need to educated me on that. Regardless of its roots, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. And all the pagon perks were adapted by Christians as a way to celebrate Christmas. So if you buy Christmas trees and put a star or angel on it, sing carols, take you kids to go see santa St Nic, you are celebrating a Christian tradition that has been established for centuries. So if you claim to be an atheist and participate in the latter traditions, you are nothing but a hypocryt by your own definition. Oh.. wait a minute, my bad, apparently you are not an atheist.. mmm... because you worship of the god saturn and the Sun god. So Christmas time, you celebrate your pagon gods, oh okey then that makes sense them, so I suppose you may not be a hypocrite. You have your own cause for celebration; your pagon sun gods. So Merry Sungod-mas to you!

Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?

Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?


Oh by all means I am not bitter... lol I am just amused. You people just crack me up because you all pretend like you are these "inteligent" athiests who could care less about religion & look down upon us "ignorant" religious people and yet the funny thing is that you (especiallY Needkarma) spend 16 hours of your day on a religious forum and the other 8 hours dreaming about what you are going to say next. For some who is supposed to be an atheist, you spend a lot of time and energy on religion. Why is that? You also participate in traditions that have been establish by "religious" people and You make excuses and lie to yourself till you believe it, as to why you are not being you are not sending mixed messages. But what ever makes you feel good. You can celebrate Zeus or the moon god on christmas day & couldn't care less.

I forgive you.

OK, for example:

Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.

Oh, I guess you don't know?

The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's. Why, because before 60's, "Happy Holidays" was synonymous with "Happy Christmas Holy Days".

In the Early Middle Ages, Christmas Day was overshadowed by Epiphany, which in the west focused on the visit of the magi. But the Medieval calendar was dominated by Christmas-related holidays. The forty days before Christmas became the "forty days of St. Martin" (which began on November 11, the feast of St. Martin of Tours), now known as Advent.... Around the 12th century, these traditions transferred again to the Twelve Days of Christmas (December 26 - January 6);
Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas)

As you can see, celebrating the CHRISTMAS holidays is an ancient tradition indeed.

It is still recognized as such by those who are knowledgeable of the matter. See the second definition in the Wikipedia:

In the United States, it can have several variations and meanings:
* As "Happy Holiday", a substitution for "Merry Christmas"
Holiday greetings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_greetings)

NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone. But it isn't. For Christians, the celebration of Christmas begins Dec 1, the Advent of Christmas (fyi, the wreath which we hang on our doors is the advent wreath, frequently you will see four candles in the center representing the three weeks before Christmas and the week of Christmas). We begin our celebration by preparing ourselves for the coming of our Lord.

Then, on Dec 24th begins Christmas proper. The celebration of the Christmas season begins on Christmas eve and ends on January 6, the day of the Three Kings.

See the Liturgical Calendar:
Liturgical year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgical_year#Western_liturgical_calendar)

Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."

ACLU Sues Government over Christmas Holiday | Save Religion! (http://savereligion.org/2007/12/06/aclu-sues-government-over-christmas-holiday/)
WorldNetDaily: Court: 'Merry Christmas' ACLU (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45169)
Baptist Press - FIRST-PERSON: Merry Christmas -- it's okay to say it - News with a Christian Perspective (http://www.bpnews.net/bpcolumn.asp?ID=2082)
Denial of Free Speech by the Courts (http://www.jeremiahproject.com/trashingamerica/freespeech2.html)
Lobo's Links: 11/2005 - 12/2005 (http://loboslinks.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html)

So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.

It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.

And so, the pendulum is swinging the other way. Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.


And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it,

Not anymore. Happy Holidays used to include Christmas. But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.


just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.

No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".


So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are,

That is true. And I can see their point. Why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harrassment:

... After she paid I said Merry Christmas to her as she left. Well, apparently she didn't like the fact that I said this... Back to the story. This lady started in on me about how insinsitive it was to say Merry Christmas to people I did not know were Christians. She apparently was not. This lady was almost near hysterics over this. Standing at the front counter yelling at me over the this phrase... At this point I was growing tired of being yelled at so I told her to just get out and take that chip on her shoulder with her.
History Channel: Merry Christmas ... (http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700023173)


so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?

I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith. Nor am I offended by any who want to say "Happy Hannakah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy to be an atheist". I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..

Sincerely,

De Maria

First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

What religion do you adhere to if I may ask?


Second
De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?

You all just have to admitt it... lol You all love Christmas and its perks but because you all have low tolerance to what it stands for, you want come up with a way to justfuly your participation in the Season. Because the bottom line is that it is irrelevant where the roots of the Christmas festival came from but what matters is that those tradtions were adopted by Christians for purpose of celebrating the Birth of Christ and this has been established for hundreds of years. So unless you worship the Sun god or Odin, (or what ever pagon religion from which the tradition is adapted) you are actually celebrating Jesus if you participate in going to see Santa, Christmas tree light.. etc Because all those traditions were adopted centuaries ago by Christians. Had Christians not adpted the traditions, they would not be present in modern times. And FYI St Nick is a Christian SAINT and the stars and angles you put on your christmas tree are religious symbols.

Cool, I'm now a full-fledged christian.

Oh, I guess you don't know?

The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's.
And it still isn't, except to a few hypersensitive people with a big chip on their shoulder.


Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."
You are confusing the issue of government-sponsored actions that promote and establish Christianity with the issue of freedom of speech for private individuals and organizations.


So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.
If you want to attach an anti-Christian meaning to the term, I suppose you can do that, but don't blame the ACLU for it. They don't have that much influence.

It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.
Some people opt for a greeting that includes everyone, while others insist that their Holy day should be the only one to be acknowledged, even by (and to) people who don't celebrate it. So who's trying to control whom?

Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.
This right is not under attack, and never has been.


Happy Holidays used to include Christmas.
And it still does, by widely-shared usage and any reasonable definition. Your insistence that it doesn't is preposterous.

But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.
No one is being prevented from mentioning Christmas, and no such redefinition of Happy Holidays has occurred.


No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".
No one is being censored, and no such redefinition has occurred.


I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith.
Then I trust that you will temper the tone of your future communications to avoid the misunderstandings that have occurred here.

I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..
No one is trying to censor your right, and you are not being persecuted. You have the freedom to greet others and observe the holiday in any way that suits you.

Soldout disagrees: Christmas has always been traditionally exclusively celebrated In the US.
Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?

Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?

It is an obvious fact that Christmas has been the most prominently celebrated traditionally in the US. & if you don't know that you are just in denial. It is only in recent years that people like you are whining about Christmas being more recognised than other minority religious festivals and demanding that people say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Other religions have their own celebrations during the year and no one harasses them about anything. But because the spirit of the world despises Christ and Christians, anytime we want to celebrate our religious holiday people want to force us to call it something else. How come when Jewish people have Yom Kipper and Muslims have Ramadan, no one utters a word of complain? I don't see anyone causing such a controversy about it. Like I said before, democracy means majority rules. Christians are a majority in Christian Holidays are going to be more prominent. If you take offense to that then you can move to a country where the majority are atheist, muslim or what ever religious beliefs you subscribe to.

And it still isn't, except to a few hypersensitive people with a big chip on their shoulder.

Why do you have to insult them by calling them hypersensitive? Can you or any non-Christians on this forum have a simple discussion without resorting to name callling and insults?

No, in my opinion, they are not hypersensitive. They are simply responding to the anti-Christian atmosphere which has pervaded the country in the last 40 years.

And no, the term "Happy Holidays" meaning "Happy Christmas Holidays" is not offensive. But the idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.


You are confusing the issue of government-sponsored actions that promote and establish Christianity with the issue of freedom of speech for private individuals and organizations.

No, I'm not. Department stores are rarely government sponsored and certainly, small restaurants and stores are not government sponsored. They have been harassed in the past and are continually being harassed for saying "Merry Christmas". As have private individuals.


If you want to attach an anti-Christian meaning to the term, I suppose you can do that, but don't blame the ACLU for it. They don't have that much influence.

Apparently, they do. They were a major force in changing the longstanding law against abortion...

The ACLU was the first national organization to argue for abortion rights ...
American Civil Liberties Union : The ACLU And Women's Rights: Proud History, Continuing Struggle (http://www.aclu.org/womensrights/gen/13150res20020312.html)

... and are now a major force in making anti-Christian legislation. They are not alone of course, they have allies in some of the media and other areas.

But, if you can prove that they have nothing to do with it or that they have only a minor role in this plan, provide your evidence.


Some people opt for a greeting that includes everyone, while others insist that their Holy day should be the only one to be acknowledged, even by (and to) people who don't celebrate it. So who's trying to control whom?

Now you are simply being argumentative. I explained our side of the argument. In my opinion, a minority of is being led by the ACLU in an anti-Christian agenda which intends to impose the will of the minority on the majority.

At this point, you have already stated that opinion before, if you have nothing new to support it, then move on.


This right is not under attack, and never has been.

Another argumentative opinion without proof. I have provided the evidence that it is under attack. Either provide something new or there is no need to continue repeating your opinion.


And it still does, by widely-shared usage and any reasonable definition. Your insistence that it doesn't is preposterous.

I disagree for previously mentioned reasons. Again, unless you have anything new, continued repetition of the same statement is simply argumentative.


No one is being prevented from mentioning Christmas, and no such redefinition of Happy Holidays has occurred.

For previously mentioned reasons, I believe it has. Again, unless you can substantiate your answers a simple repetitive denial of my assertions does not make you right. Contrary to Hitler's opinion, repeating a lie often enough does not make it believable.


No one is being censored, and no such redefinition has occurred.

Again, for previously mentioned and documented reasons, I believe it has. What are you going to do, just keep coming back with unsupported denials. If you've got a new argument, make it. If not, why continue? Do you just want to have the last word?


Then I trust that you will temper the tone of your future communications to avoid the misunderstandings that have occurred here

What? Up to now you've been the most polite non-Christian I've spoken to on this forum. But here you're insinuating that I've not been "tempering" my tone on this forum. That's the same game the others have been playing. Accuse, infer and insinuate. Provide the proof that I have not tempered my tone in any of my communications.

What you should do is learn to respond to the message which is written. Not to your wishful thinking. You wish that I were being untempered. But I simply meet fire with fire and I back up my fire with facts.

So, here's some advice, if you want a tempered tone from me, address me in a tempered tone. Otherwise you get what you dishout. Fair enough?


No one is trying to censor your right,

Yes, regardless of your continued protests on the matter it is evident that some people are trying to do just that.


and you are not being persecuted.

Not yet. But we will remain vigilant to make sure that no one ever gets the power to actually do so in this country as they are already doing in others.


You have the freedom to greet others and observe the holiday in any way that suits you.

No need to tell me. Inform your anti-Christian friends. Cause we don't intend to change any further.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is an obvious fact that Christmas has been the most prominantly celebrated traditionaly in the US. & if you dont know that you are just in denial.
It's the word "exclusively" in your statement that makes it factually incorrect. Christianity has been the religion of the majority, yes, but other religions and their traditions have been present and flourished here from Colonial times, and tolerance of all religions is firmly embedded in the Constitution.

Like i said before, democracy means majority rules. Christians are a majority in Christian Holidays are going to be more prominant. If you take offense to that then you can move to a country where the majority are athiest, muslim or what ever religious beliefs you subscribe to.
Yes, and thankfully, a majority of US citizens and voters still honor the Founders' vision of tolerance for all religions, and understand the wisdom of prohibiting the Government from establishing or favoring one religion over others.

But here you're insinuating that I've not been "tempering" my tone on this forum. Thats the same game the others have been playing. Accuse, infer and insinuate.

Ever stop to think that maybe it's not a 'game the others have been playing' and that there might be some truth to the things being said?

And by the way, do not assume that I know nothing about Christianity or Christians.

Raised Catholic. Attended religious ed from grades 1-10. Participated in youth group from grade 9-12. Upon graduation from high school I volunteered as a Youth Leader in the church youth group for 4 years and taught 4th, 5th and 6th grade religious ed. Volunteered for at least 4-5 years in summer Vacation Bible School. Gave talks at teen retreats and lock-ins. Chaperoned and participated in annual summer retreats. Attended and participated in church events sponsored by both Catholic and other Christian denominations. I was surrounded by Catholics and Christians my entire life.

So please, do not tell me that I have limited exposure to Christians and Christianity.

Do not make assumptions about me that suit your need to make me look like I have no ground to stand on when I make a statement about something Christian-related.

Do you just want to have the last word?
No, I hereby offer it to you.

Ever stop to think that maybe it's not a 'game the others have been playing' and that there might be some truth to the things being said?

I gave you an opportunity to prove that it was true. But there's a good reason why you couldn't. I never made the offending statements you attributed to me and insinuated about me. Therefore, I can easily identify the game you are playing. It is a form of fallacious argument called "building strawmen":
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)


And by the way, do not assume that I know nothing about Christianity or Christians.

Raised Catholic. Attended religious ed from grades 1-10. Participated in youth group from grade 9-12. Upon graduation from high school I volunteered as a Youth Leader in the church youth group for 4 years and taught 4th, 5th and 6th grade religious ed. Volunteered for at least 4-5 years in summer Vacation Bible School. Gave talks at teen retreats and lock-ins. Chaperoned and participated in annual summer retreats. Attended and participated in church events sponsored by both Catholic and other Christian denominations. I was surrounded by Catholics and Christians my entire life.

So please, do not tell me that I have limited exposure to Christians and Christianity.

Do not make assumptions about me that suit your need to make me look like I have no ground to stand on when I make a statement about something Christian-related.

I guess exposure to a subject does not equate to koowledge or love of the subject.

Sooo? Why are you accusing me of making assumptions about you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Ok, if you'd like a list of the things you've said which were condescending, nasty, twisting-what-was actually-said to suit your needs, exaggerations, etc. here it is. I'm sure I missed quite a few, but I'm in a rush right now:

MARGOG85: You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways.'

DE MARIA: Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

(Making assumptions based on what I said to make me seem anti-American, when I was simply stating that there are still groups within the U.S. that are oppressed.)

MARGOG85: (In regard to the Christian belief that gay marriage should not be legalized) And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

DE MARIA: Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?. Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

(condescending and accusatory- acting as thought I want to impose my beliefs upon others when I'm merely advocating that people should have the freedom to make their own decisions and not have their private lives dictated by laws which stem from religious beliefs that are not their own)

DE MARIA: In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

(again, making assumptions- I do not object to people being vocal, I simply speak up when I disagree with their perspective to try and bring some logic into view- and what makes you think I am only objecting to things Christian and nothing else? making the assumption that I agree with all things non-Christians may say and am against everything Christians say is a stretch in what you could actually know from this brief discussion)

DE MARIA: Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority.

(condesending)

DE MARIA: imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

(twisting my words- I never said homosexuality should be imposed upon society, simply that limiting the freedom of others based on the religious beliefs of one group is wrong)

DE MARIA: See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question.
(condescending)

KP2171: as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

DE MARIA: But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

(Condescending and sarcastic)

MARGOG85: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

DE MARIA: You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

(twisting things I've said)

MARGOG85: And people like ME make you feel victimized

DE MARIA: You said it yourself.

(removed the question mark from my statement to twist it into what you wanted)

DE MARIA: What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

(accusations without basis- my agenda is not anti-Christian it is pro-inclusion; I am not at fault if some hypersensitive Christians feel that including others in turn excludes them)

MARGOG85: That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

DE MARIA: That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

(condescendingly making the assumption that my statements are based upon limited knowledge)

DE MARIA: you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way

(I've done no such thing- intentionally distorting the truth)

MARGOG85: I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

DE MARIA: In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

(twisting what I've said to make me out to be the bad guy)

MARGOG85: Inclusion

DE MARIA: Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

(twisting what I said and making inferences without grounds)

MICHAELB: Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

DE MARIA: Thanks. But we know.

(sarcastic and condescending)

MICHAELB: What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

DE MARIA: I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

(condescending and accusatory remarks made in response to a simple statement)

DE MARIA: NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

(assumption that only Christians know what they're talking about)

DE MARIA: why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harassment...
The idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

(exaggeration of the situation at hand- no one is making Christians fearful of saying 'Merry Christmas'- Christians are reacting to non-religious institutions, such as WALMART not recognizing their religion)

And as far me having exposure to Christianity but not having a love for or knowledge of it- I do have an appreciation for Christianity and I have a wealth of knowledge, more so than many Christians I've encountered in my time. - if I did not at a time have a love for it, why would I have been involved in the long list of activities, events, and volunteer positions I listed to you? As I've already said, I spent a great part of my life in church, teaching, volunteering, praying, reading the Bible, as well as a number other Theological texts- as I was growing up my mother was obtaining her Masters degree in Theology and we discussed her classes and the information she was learning regularly. I assisted her in reviewing and writing papers. When she became a Theology teacher in a Catholic high school I assisted her in the development of lesson plans. I taught Christianity to children. I am knowledgeable in theological matters and have enough experience under my belt to make informed statements and observations without being ridiculed for being just another critical, stupid atheist as you apparently wanted to assume I was.

So please do not make the self righteous, arrogant, and entirely incorrect assumption that because I disagree with you I do not have any appreciation for or knowledge of Christianity. I simply have come to realize that it is not my path.

In the words of Gandhi- 'I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

So i just dont get it, if christians are really self righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals then why are you on the Christian domain of the cite. Why dont you spend more time on the other hundred of topics out there on this site. Why come and judge and harass Christians about what they beleive?

Because I believe that discussion with those of alternate opinions are an essential component of becoming a well rounded and intelligent person. I also believe that I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a rigt to yours. Although I may not agree, I present my perspective, which I believe to be logical. Contrary to your accusation, I am not harassing Christians about what they believe- I never criticized a Christian for believing in Jesus as their savior, for belief in one God, for belief in the resurrection, for their celebration of their holidays. I have no qualms whatsoever with Christianity. It is with the attitude of Christians that I take issue- and this is an issue which impacts not only Christians, but others as well.

I'm sure we can continue debating until next Christmas and never get very far- I persist because my perspective seems to me to be simple and logical- if you don't know what someone celebrates, why assume? Celebrate your holiday as you wish. Wish those who you know celebrate Christmas a Merry Christmas. But don't expect to hear it from those who just don't know and opt not to make an assumption that you are Christian. Don't harrass those who are working their a$$es off to make ends meet at a minimum wage job for saying 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'. As someone said before on this thread, it just seems so petty.

Ok, if you'd like a list of the things you've said which were condescending, nasty, twisting-what-was actually-said to suit your needs, exaggerations, etc. here it is. I'm sure I missed quite a few, but I'm in a rush right now:

Thanks for posting these. Although you put your own spin on the matter, they pretty much highlight that I responded in kind to condescending statements.


MARGOG85: You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways.'

DE MARIA: Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

(Making assumptions based on what I said to make me seem anti-American, when I was simply stating that there are still groups within the U.S. that are oppressed.)[/I]

No. Here you actually argued that the US is as oppressive in some ways as countries like Red China and some Islamic countries and I responded sarcastically to a ridiculous statement. I still consider your response ridiculous. I think you were simply being argumentative. If you want me to take your statement seriously, simply provide one instance of an American situation like Iran lining up an shooting all the gay people and Red China putting Christians in death camps.


MARGOG85: (In regard to the Christian belief that gay marriage should not be legalized) And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

DE MARIA: Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?. Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

(condescending and accusatory- acting as thought I want to impose my beliefs upon others when I'm merely advocating that people should have the freedom to make their own decisions and not have their private lives dictated by laws which stem from religious beliefs that are not their own)

No, and your new response shows that my statement was right on the money. First, you accuse me of wanting to impose my beliefs. Which I don't. I want "due process." That means I will live with whatever the majority agrees upon. That is the American way.

But to you, the American way, the democratic process, is apparently a system in which the majority's beliefs are imposed on the minority. Well, I guess you have the right to look at it that way. But its an erroneous viewpoint and the democratic process beats the pants out of having the minority dictate what the majority should do.


DE MARIA: In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

(again, making assumptions- I do not object to people being vocal, I simply speak up when I disagree with their perspective to try and bring some logic into view- and what makes you think I am only objecting to things Christian and nothing else? making the assumption that I agree with all things non-Christians may say and am against everything Christians say is a stretch in what you could actually know from this brief discussion)

Actually, that is just a question. All you had to do was clarify any false assumptions. Why not just answer with, "For your information, I object when nonChristians are vocal about such and such...." But instead, you chose to pretend you were being victimized?

So, prove me wrong. To which non-Christian cause do you object?


DE MARIA: Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority.

(condesending)

No. Sarcasm. You live in a democracy and pretend it is an unjust system imposing the will of the majority on the minority.


DE MARIA: imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

(twisting my words- I never said homosexuality should be imposed upon society, simply that limiting the freedom of others based on the religious beliefs of one group is wrong)

Note that I didn't say that YOU were imposing homosexuality upon society. So again, you pretend to be victimized when you are not being victimized.

[
B]DE MARIA[/B]: See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question.
(condescending)

No, a simple question that I addressed to Jillian. Here it is and I quote, "...are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?"

A reasonable person would have simply answered it, "yes" or "no".


KP2171: as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

DE MARIA: But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

(Condescending and sarcastic)

In response to a condescending and sarcastic remark, "panties in a wad".

And this is a clear example of YOUR lack of partiality. Its fine and dandy for this fellow to characterize Christians who object to "Happy Holidays" as having their panties in a wad. But when I respond in kind, you accuse me of rudeness?


MARGOG85: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

DE MARIA: You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

(twisting things I've said)

No, I explained why your conclusion is anti-Christian bigotry in the next response.


MARGOG85: And people like ME make you feel victimized

DE MARIA: You said it yourself.

(removed the question mark from my statement to twist it into what you wanted)

That is true. It was sarcasm and a play on words.


DE MARIA: What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

(accusations without basis- my agenda is not anti-Christian it is pro-inclusion; I am not at fault if some hypersensitive Christians feel that including others in turn excludes them)

You pretty much proved your anti-Christian agenda with your biggotted statement, which you haven't withdrawn I might add.

As for this "inclusion" thing. Understand that forcing people to include or be included is a form of coercion. As Christians we believe in the equality of people and respect their dignity in the eyes of man. But we reserve the right to choose that into which we will be included.

CONT'D

CONT'D

MARGOG85: That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

DE MARIA: That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

(condescendingly making the assumption that my statements are based upon limited knowledge)

That's not an assumption, that is a fact.


DE MARIA: you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way

(I've done no such thing- intentionally distorting the truth)

Ok, I guess that two.


MARGOG85: I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

DE MARIA: In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

(twisting what I've said to make me out to be the bad guy)

It sure seems that you want to force me to agree with you. Otherwise, you should have agreed to disagree a long time ago. But you keep coming back and twisting my words as though that's going to help convince me of your argument.


MARGOG85: Inclusion

DE MARIA: Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

(twisting what I said and making inferences without grounds)

Again, explain yourself. I think I have plenty of grounds. Apparently you feel jilted if you aren't included in something. Or perhaps if someone doesn't agree with you. Otherwise, explain yourself. That's the impression I get. If you don't.


MICHAELB: Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

DE MARIA: Thanks. But we know.

(sarcastic and condescending)

I think it sarcastic and condescending of him to pretend to tell me what I already know. How do you suggest that I respond, " Oh thanks, I sure didn't know that. I'll go right out and shop at the nearest store of my choosing."

Get real!


MICHAELB: What bothers me is when christians
Harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

DE MARIA: I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

(condescending and accusatory remarks made in response to a simple statement)


Honest question. He complains when Christians express their frustatrions. Does he complain when nonChristians do the same?


DE MARIA: NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

(assumption that only Christians know what they're talking about)

Its not an assumption. Many non-Christians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

Here's just one example from Google:

Why Does Christmas Last So Long? - The PhoneBoy Vox
Why in the hell does Christmas seem to start before Thanksgiving and end at New Years? It's one day, and oh by the way, it's meant to celebrate the birth of Christ...
Phoneboy.vox.com/library/post/why-does-christmas-last-so-long.html - 77k -


DE MARIA: why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harassment...
The idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

(exaggeration of the situation at hand- no one is making Christians fearful of saying 'Merry Christmas'- Christians are reacting to non-religious institutions, such as WALMART not recognizing their religion)

Since so many Christians are expressing concern over the matter, you just have to Google the internet to find out, I don't think I am exaggerating at all.


And as far me having exposure to Christianity but not having a love for or knowledge of it- I do have an appreciation for Christianity and I have a wealth of knowledge, more so than many Christians I've encountered in my time. - if I did not at a time have a love for it, why would I have been involved in the long list of activities, events, and volunteer positions I listed to you? As I've already said, I spent a great part of my life in church, teaching, volunteering, praying, reading the Bible, as well as a number other Theological texts- as I was growing up my mother was obtaining her Masters degree in Theology and we discussed her classes and the information she was learning regularly. I assisted her in reviewing and writing papers. When she became a Theology teacher in a Catholic high school I assisted her in the development of lesson plans. I taught Christianity to children. I am knowledgeable in theological matters and have enough experience under my belt to make informed statements and observations without being ridiculed for being just another critical, stupid atheist as you apparently wanted to assume I was.

So please do not make the self righteous, arrogant, and entirely incorrect assumption that because I disagree with you I do not have any appreciation for or knowledge of Christianity. I simply have come to realize that it is not my path.

You didn't answer my question. Why did you feel that I had asked you for your life history? I don't remember saying anything about you directly which would result in your giving me your entire life history. I mean, its nice and everything, but what's the point. You still behave like an anti-Christian.

And, if you respect Christians as you say, you might want to exhibit that respect. I won't take it for granted that you respect Christians when you continually belittle their efforts to keep Christ in Christmas.


In the words of Gandhi- 'I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

Another example of your anti-Christian bigotry..

For information, Gandhi was a Hindu. His personification of Christ as a total pacifists was a complete misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Here is what Jesus would say about those who misuse the Word of God:

Matthew 23 33 You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?

Therefore, Jesus did not respond kindly to people misrepresenting His Word. As for me, I follow Christ. As St. Paul, another follower of Christ once said:

1 Corinthians 9

16 For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me, for a necessity lieth upon me: for woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel.

And saying Merry Christmas is my small way of preaching the Gospel.

Sorry for the lengthy response. I didn't want to leave anything out lest I be accused of selectively responding to the message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

margog I had to spread some more rep; but I think you have identified the troll in this conversation, point by point! :)

I don't have the time right now to go through all of that- there were a number of things I'd like to respond to, and will attempt to do so when I have the time.

My point is still that hearing someone you don't even know say 'Merry Christmas' should be of little concern- it's not what people say that is important, it's how they behave. Black Friday, for example, when people line up outside of stores at 5am and trample each other to get the best deals- the commercialization of Christmas- the way that it has turned into a consumer frenzy and the true meaning of the holiday is often merely a backdrop to the commercial aspect.

Hearing an under-paid store associate say 'Merry Christmas' to you while you're overloaded with bags full of unnecessary material items... and then becoming offended in an instance where they don't say it... it just does not make sense to me. Why preach the gospel while simultaneously being a hypocrite and feeding into the commercialism of your sacred holiday? Why not protest the commercialization of Christmas by refusing to excessively buy gifts or protesting stores that push materialism and lines of credit and deep discounts to rope in consumers- instead of feeding into all of that, and then complaining when those same companies fail to recognize Christmas in other ways? They are already distorting the true meaning of the holiday anyway.

The simple words 'Merry Christmas' don't hold as much significance as the actions of people this time of year. That's where the focus should be- but it's not.

In the words of St. Francis of Assisi-
'Preach the gospel wherever you go- and if you must, even use words.'

Wow. 14 pages already?
I've been thinking. The stores provide Christmas lights, Christmas trees, Christmas Decorations. Do other holidays in December use these items? Hanukkah? Nope. Kwanza? Nope. So While the stores are trying not to offend anyone by saying Merry Christmas. Arnt they really offending them by having Christmas things, excuse me, Holiday things in their store? I don't know about you, But I haven't seen any items for Kwanza or Hanukkah at Walmart or Target.

Even as someone who doesn't believe in any religion, I see nothing wrong with saying, "Merry Christmas!". The only time it's a problem is when you can't know someone's religious affiliation. I mean, how would Christians like it if everyone assumed they were Jewish and wished them a happy Hannakuh?

This is just common sense and I can't see why people get so offended. It's not just non-Christians getting offended by being told to have a merry christmas, it's Christians being offended by being told to say, happy holidays if they aren't sure. Is that REALLY so hard? If you don't know, what's so wrong or hard about simply saying happy holidays? Geesh!

Is there anything wrong with Christians saying Merry Christmas, Jews saying Happy Hannukah, and whoever else wishing happy whatever? Why can't we just say what our beliefs are and leave it?

margog I had to spread some more rep; but I think you have identified the troll in this conversation, point by point! :)

Lol! You're funny!

Here is the definition in google:

Participate on a mailing list or discussion board long enough and you'll find that there are certain people who pop in and add messages that are either diametrically opposed to the shared values of the group or subtly insulting or demeaning. If the author is just offensive, well, there are people like that everywhere, unfortunately. They're just, well, offensive.

Lets see who fits this description, you or I?

people who pop in and add messages that are either diametrically opposed to the shared values of the group

I'm a Christian on a Christian thread giving my Chrstian perspective on the matter of whether to say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas".

You are a nonChristian on a Christian thread disagreeing with Christians.

Duh?

or subtly insulting or demeaning.

You're the one calling me a troll.:

Case closed.

Is there anything wrong with Christians saying Merry Christmas, Jews saying Happy Hannukah, and whoever else wishing happy whatever? Why can't we just say what our beliefs are and leave it?

Just to clarify:

I hope you mean Christians saying Merry Christmas to other Christians, and Jews saying Happy Hannukah to other Jews. Surely you're not suggesting that a Christian wish a Jewish person a Merry Christman and visa-versa, are you?

Why not? If someone said Happy Hannukah to me, I would say Merry Christmas to them.

I don't have the time right now to go through all of that- there were a number of things I'd like to respond to, and will attempt to do so when I have the time.

Whenever you have time is fine with me.


My point is still that hearing someone you don't even know say 'Merry Christmas' should be of little concern- it's not what people say that is important, it's how they behave.. .

Ok, so it seems we're starting over. But keep in mind my point is we should vote with our dollars.

Are you asking me to comment on your point above?

Are you saying that we as Christians should put ourselves in the position of judging whether someone is worthy of saying, "Merry Christmas"?

Are you saying that if a person who appears to be a Hindu comes up to me and says, "Merry Christmas!", I should say, "Stop that, you aren't worthy to utter those words!"

But as Christians we are told by the Master not to judge, lest we be judged. So that would go against our religion.

In addition, I don't see any reason why a nonChristian can't wish me a "Merry Christmas".


Black Friday, for example, when people line up outside of stores at 5am and trample each other to get the best deals- the commercialization of Christmas- the way that it has turned into a consumer frenzy and the true meaning of the holiday is often merely a backdrop to the commercial aspect.

You are off topic.

The issue is not whether people are hypocrites, nor whether Christmas is being commercialized, nor whether Christmas has become a consumer frenzy.

The issue is, should we be offended by someone saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays".

My answer is no. But vote your preference with your dollars.


Hearing an under-paid store associate say 'Merry Christmas' to you while you're overloaded with bags full of unnecessary material items... and then becoming offended in an instance where they don't say it... it just does not make sense to me.

Nor to me.


Why preach the gospel while simultaneously being a hypocrite and feeding into the commercialism of your sacred holiday?

We are not being hypocrites when we preach the Gospel in or out of season. That means that we preach the Gospel when its convenient and when its inconvenient.


Why not protest the commercialization of Christmas by refusing to excessively buy gifts

Most Christians that I know already do so. But "excessive" is a relative term.


or protesting stores that push materialism and lines of credit and deep discounts to rope in consumers- instead of feeding into all of that, and then complaining when those same companies fail to recognize Christmas in other ways?

Because we place the blame where it belongs. No one is twisting anyone's arm to get into debt. It is ultimately the individual's responsibility to watch his budget.


They are already distorting the true meaning of the holiday anyway.

We are working on that one also. For years, Christians have been concerned about the over commercialization of Christmas. Probably for decades.


The simple words 'Merry Christmas' don't hold as much significance as the actions of people this time of year. That's where the focus should be- but it's not.


I think you are over reacting to one little thread on a little forum on the internet. If you go to Church, to prayer services or to Mass, you will find that many times Christians speak of these concerns. In fact, I've never heard a homily on whether to say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", but I have heard many on focusing on Jesus during this tumultous part of the year.


In the words of St. Francis of Assisi-
'Preach the gospel wherever you go- and if you must, even use words.'

St. Francis is a wonderful Saint and one of my favorites. But St. Francis is not the Church. And the Church is calling us to evangelize by word as well as works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why not? If someone said Happy Hannukah to me, I would say Merry Christmas to them.

I suppose... As long as you wouldn't be offended and just trying to offend him back.

What if someone said happy roshashana, or yom kippur to you? Now you have no comparative holiday to respond in kind to. Would you be offended that this person assumed you were Jewish and celebrated Roshashana? Just being the devil's advocate here. ;)

I don't think it's wrong for people to express well wishings to others.

I don't think it's wrong for people to express well wishings to others.The Great Flying Spagetti Monster looks down on you and wishes you well.

The Great Flying Spagetti Monster looks down on you and wishes you well.
Merry Christmas to you! :D

Well, when someone tells me "happy holidays", I just say, "thank you, Merry Christmas". I work at a bank and I tell my customers merry Christmas. It is just natural to me. I've never thought of saying "Happy Holidays". It's not something I spend hours on thinking about.
I think some things are way over thought. I mean, have you heard, Santa can't say
"Ho, Ho, Ho" anymore. It is offensive to some, especially after the Don Imus thing this year. Santa should say "Ha, Ha, Ha' now. Come on people, is this what it has all come down too?

I think it's important to wish people happy holidays using a specific holiday greeting that suits the one that THEY choose to celebrate. Happy Hannukah, Peaceful Ramadan, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Joyous Quanza, etc. All I need to do is ask them what holiday they're preparing for before I open my mouth. Simply casting a holiday greeting without regard for the recipient is disrespectful.

Being that this is a Christian discussion, I'd like to wish y'all a very merry and blessed Christmas!

Wonder why nobody ever says Merry Mitramass: after all December 25th is HIS birtday, not Christ's.

Interesting thought Aton3.

No wonder my 2yo is scared to death... I would be too if some big guy came up to me saying ha, ha, ha... now we laugh about christmas?? What kind of message does THAT send? I got the email too... it gave me chills, so true.. so true

It should just be Merry Christmas because ALL of these stores have Christmas lights, Trees, Santa etc so if they really want to be "inclusive" of all religions they should not display Christmas lights, play Christmas music e.t.c Because that means the store is sending a message that they do support Christmas anyway. So Why not say Merry Christamas.

They put those lights up because it's all about sales, not the birth of anything.

A lot of those stores DON'T cater specifically to Christmas. They carry Christmas items because they SELL, and the whole point of a retail store is to SELL things that their customers want to buy.

I simply wish a Happy Solstice, or Happy Saturnalia to anyone that wishes me Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. My holiday has many of the same traditions--as a matter of fact, Christianity as a whole "borrowed" those pagan traditions centuries ago.

So... I'm not Christian, but I put up a tree, have a wreath, exchange gifts, and light candles. Instead of angels and Santas on my tree, though, I have icicles and images of the goddess, and mistletoe and a LOT of lights--symbols of MY religion.

While I agree that there are fewer pagans than Christians or Jews or Muslims--the stores are NOT just catering to Christians.

You want Christ back in Christmas? Then by all means wish people a Merry Christmas. Just don't get mad when they wish YOU happy holidays because they aren't Christians.

THAT is where the problem is: Christians get all huffy and self-righteous about OTHER religions celebrating something at THEIR holiday time, and want people to JUST acknowledge Christmas. Well, guess what? I make a POINT of offending Christians that get all huffy about something as dumb as saying "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"

As far as taking it out on minimum wage employees who are just doing what they're told to do--why not ask a manager instead? Why not write a letter to the company in question? Why take it out on some poor kid trying to earn money for the HOLIDAYS? Why not just turn the other cheek and wish them a Merry Christmas in return and move on? Why get so angry about it at all?

Don't you have anything more important to worry about? ARen't there millions of people NOT having a merry holiday this year--shouldn't you take a dollar every time you get mad at a store clerk for saying "happy holidays" and give it to the Salvation Army to show what a good Christian you are?

Vote with your dollars if you like--I do the same--but don't get mad because people are sick of being told that Christians (who've had their way for DECADES) feel oppressed.

It should just be Merry Christmas because ALL of these stores have Christmas lights, Trees, Santa etc so if they really want to be "inclusive" of all religions they should not display Christmas lights, play Christmas music e.t.c Because that means the store is sending a message that they do support Christmas anyway. so Why not say Merry Christamas.

My former boss (a Jew) decorates his house with garland, mistletoe, ornaments, lights, wrapped presents, reindeer, wreaths and an enormous tree (he calls it a Hanukkah bush for fun). He also enjoys Christmas music, especially the instrumentals. So it's not just Christians who buy and enjoy these things.

ETA:

Even me, a heathen atheist has a tree. I also celebrate with my brothers, cousins and friends each year with "Christmas Beer" (buy lots of exotic beer and sample) and with the women in my family with "Christmas Tea". We also have Christmas Eve dinner and exchange small gifts, then on Christmas morning we have "Christmas Brunch" and open all the rest of the gifts. NO ONE (except my 80-year old grandmother) in my family is a Christian.

You might make life easier on yourself by not confusing the 'Christ' of Christmas, with the Jesus of history. Don't try so hard to take the 'Happy' out of Happy Holidays.

You know, I am one of those "crazy" christians. I almost take offense to be lumped together with a whole group of people by someone who doesn't know me. I digress...

I wish people a merry christmas, because that is what I celebrate. I am doing the wishing. So, Since it is my wish, I wish you a Merry christmas.
Get over it.

NowWhat--Thank you very much! You have a Happy Solstice, this Saturday, and may the New Year bring you peace and happiness!

(See how easy that was? No offense was taken, and BOTH sides got to wish their own holiday!)

Synnen, I didn't take offense to that at all. :)

Wow, two adults able to express their own feelings and no one got offended. What a novel idea.

They put those lights up because it's all about sales, not the birth of anything.

Yes so if they want to continue those sales they should go all the way and just say merry Christmas because we know that what they are saying by hanging Christmas lights e.t.c

A lot of those stores DON'T cater specifically to Christmas. They carry Christmas items because they SELL, and the whole point of a retail store is to SELL things that their customers want to buy.

I simply wish a Happy Solstice, or Happy Saturnalia to anyone that wishes me Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. My holiday has many of the same traditions--as a matter of fact, Christianity as a whole "borrowed" those pagan traditions centuries ago.

So...I'm not Christian, but I put up a tree, have a wreath, exchange gifts, and light candles. Instead of angels and Santas on my tree, though, I have icicles and images of the goddess, and mistletoe and a LOT of lights--symbols of MY religion.

While I agree that there are fewer pagans than Christians or Jews or Muslims--the stores are NOT just catering to Christians.

You want Christ back in Christmas? Then by all means wish people a Merry Christmas. Just don't get mad when they wish YOU happy holidays because they aren't Christians.

THAT is where the problem is: Christians get all huffy and self-righteous about OTHER religions celebrating something at THEIR holiday time, and want people to JUST acknowledge Christmas. Well, guess what? I make a POINT of offending Christians that get all huffy about something as dumb as saying "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"

As far as taking it out on minimum wage employees who are just doign what they're told to do--why not ask a manager instead? Why not write a letter to the company in question? Why take it out on some poor kid trying to earn money for the HOLIDAYS? Why not just turn the other cheek and wish them a Merry Christmas in return and move on? Why get so angry about it at all?

Don't you have anything more important to worry about? ARen't there millions of people NOT having a merry holiday this year--shouldn't you take a dollar every time you get mad at a store clerk for saying "happy holidays" and give it to the Salvation Army to show what a good Christian you are?

Vote with your dollars if you like--I do the same--but don't get mad because people are sick of being told that Christians (who've had their way for DECADES) feel oppressed.

Lol... :D you people crack me up. So do you worship pagon gods, Odin? And the moon god and the sun god?. lol Unless you worship pagon gods you are actually helping Christians celebrate Christmas by putting up christmas lights buying gifts and having a Christmas tree. Gift giving and santa was a tradition adopted by CHristians during Christmas time as a way to symbolise the gift God gave us, His Son. Santa Clause is St Nicholas whose wealthy parents raised him to be a devout Christian. He gave away his wealth to the poor and had a reputation for secret gift-giving juring Christmas. So You can try and non-Christianise it as much as you want but the fact still remains that those tradistions were adopted by Christians hundreds of years ago for the purpose of celebrating Christ's Birth. So if you want to part take in OUR tradition of Christmas and hang Christmas trees and lights that's fine, but don't try and justify yourself by looking to its pagon origins as a way to not look like a Hypocrite for celebrating a Christian holiday. Don't tell people NOT to say Merry CHristmas to you but at the same time you are hanging Christmas lights and decorating trees don't you think that is having double standards? Unless of course you are one of the last 3 people on earth who still worship the moon and sun god.

Believe what you want---pagan worship of the sun and moon and nature has been around longer than Christianity, and had most of your Christmas traditions in place WELL before the birth of Christ.

You can give me websites that tell me that the lights you hang symbolize the star the wise men followed, and I can counter with websites that say it came from the pagan tradition of keeping a light lit through the longest night of the year, in hopes that the Sun would be reborn again in the morning.

You'll point to Saint Nicholas and his tradition of giving gifts of charity to others as the origin of the gift giving, and I'll point out that the Roman Saturnalia existed LONG before St. Nick.

We could go back and forth all day--yet in the end, my traditions are older than yours. I celebrate the Solstice, and we'll be exchanging gifts on Saturday around a fire.

The thing that I think is funniest here--you really don't realize how arrogant you sound, making it as though everyone else has CHRISTMAS traditions, and just calls them something else. Is there enough adult in you to wish me Merry Christmas, and accept Happy Solstice in return, both for the spirit in which they're offered, rather than the religious war you make it?

Lead by your actions. If you act a sulky child because someone doesn't wish you a Merry Christmas, and says "Happy Holidays" because THEY don't know which holiday you celebrate, well--don't be surprised when you give the impression that Christians are sulky children who want their own way. Wishing them a Merry Christmas in return, and really meaning it, would make you out to be more adult, and more faithful, and make you look a better person.

Edit: I never said not to tell me Merry Christmas, btw--I just said that I will wish you a joyful time of MY holiday in return. It's when people get MAD that I'm not following their religion that I get upset. I happily accept all wishes for a joyful holiday--whatever holiday that might be.

My former boss (a Jew) decorates his house with garland, mistletoe, ornaments, lights, wrapped presents, reindeer, wreaths and an enormous tree (he calls it a Hanukkah bush for fun). He also enjoys Christmas music, especially the instrumentals. So it's not just Christians who buy and enjoy these things.

ETA:

Even me, a heathen atheist has a tree. I also celebrate with my brothers, cousins and friends each year with "Christmas Beer" (buy lots of exotic beer and sample) and with the women in my family with "Christmas Tea". We also have Christmas Eve dinner and exchange small gifts, then on Christmas morning we have "Christmas Brunch" and open all the rest of the gifts. NO ONE (except my 80-year old grandmother) in my family is a Christian.


Of course! "everyone" celebrates Christmas there is nothing wrong with that, I am glad you do... I just find it funny that the same people who say Don't say "Merry Christmas" say "Happy Holidays" are the same people buying Christmas lights, lighting candles, decorating Christmas Trees, Buying Gifts, taking their kids to see father Christmas St Nicholas e.t.c It just doesn't make any sense to me because Christians adopted those traditions as a way to express and celebrate the birth of their savior and non Christians want to part take in the traditions but they don't want us to say merry Christmas. So I think non-christians need to make up their minds. If they want to part take in our Christmas traditions, trees stanta etc, they are free to do so but they should not have double standard and demand that we call it happy holiday because it is just a holiday, its Christmas. If on the other hand non-Christians don't want us to say Merry Christmas to people then inturn Christmas should not be made public, so they should stop putting Christmas lights trees in stores and public places so that we don't offend anyone with our traditions. Then we can leave the lights, tress, santa etc to Christians to practice in their homes or at Church. So it is simple you can't have it both ways because it send mixed messages. A store clerk will say happy holidays to you but they have a Christmas tree in the window and a big picture of Santa, that a double standard, and it sends mixed messages. So I like that all religions part take in Christmas traditions, but its just anoying when those same people complain about the Phrase "merry Christmas" but the next day they take their kids to go see Santa.

Believe what you want---pagan worship of the sun and moon and nature has been around longer than Christianity, and had most of your Christmas traditions in place WELL before the birth of Christ.

You can give me websites that tell me that the lights you hang symbolize the star the wise men followed, and I can counter with websites that say it came from the pagan tradition of keeping a light lit through the longest night of the year, in hopes that the Sun would be reborn again in the morning.

You'll point to Saint Nicholas and his tradition of giving gifts of charity to others as the origin of the gift giving, and I'll point out that the Roman Saturnalia existed LONG before St. Nick.

We could go back and forth all day--yet in the end, my traditions are older than yours. I celebrate the Solstice, and we'll be exchanging gifts on Saturday around a fire.

The thing that I think is funniest here--you really don't realize how arrogant you sound, making it as though everyone else has CHRISTMAS traditions, and just calls them something else. Is there enough adult in you to wish me Merry Christmas, and accept Happy Solstice in return, both for the spirit in which they're offered, rather than the religious war you make it?

Lead by your actions. If you act a sulky child because someone doesn't wish you a Merry Christmas, and says "Happy Holidays" because THEY don't know which holiday you celebrate, well--don't be surprised when you give the impression that Christians are sulky children who want their own way. Wishing them a Merry Christmas in return, and really meaning it, would make you out to be more adult, and more faithful, and make you look a better person.

Edit: I never said not to tell me Merry Christmas, btw--I just said that I will wish you a joyful time of MY holiday in return. It's when people get MAD that I'm not following their religion that I get upset. I happily accept all wishes for a joyful holiday--whatever holiday that might be.


Like I said Synnen since your justification for participating in what most call the perks of Christmas, is its Pagon origin, you can decorate your tree to celebrate your pagon gods. I have no problem with that.

Soldout--I hate to point this out to you, because you're on such a roll--

It's not NON-Christians that object to the phrase "Happy Holidays". Most of us don't care if you wish us "Happy Peanut Butter And Jelly Left In the Cupboard Day".

It's CHRISTIANS that object to the use of "Happy Holidays".

Most non-Christians also don't care about the lights, trees, etc. We just don't want any idiocy BACK about our traditions.

I'm not asking you to suppress your religion, you know. I'm asking you not to suppress MINE.

The reason store clerks say "Happy Holidays" is because it's a way to acknowledge ALL of the holidays in the season. The only people that get mad about that are Christians, generally. They want everyone to say "Merry Christmas".

Now--if I were a store clerk, and went according to MY beliefs, and wished everyone a great Solstice--how many people would that offend?

I think anyone should be able to wish another person a happy whatever-their-personal-holiday-is. I don't want to suppress ANY religion.

BUT--I'm ALSO not going to sit and take it if my boss instructs me to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, because I personally don't believe it.

Soldout--I hate to point this out to you, because you're on such a roll--

It's not NON-Christians that object to the phrase "Happy Holidays". Most of us don't care if you wish us "Happy Peanut Butter And Jelly Left In the Cupboard Day".

It's CHRISTIANS that object to the use of "Happy Holidays".

Most non-Christians also don't care about the lights, trees, etc. We just don't want any idiocy BACK about our traditions.

I'm not asking you to suppress your religion, you know. I'm asking you not to suppress MINE.

The reason store clerks say "Happy Holidays" is because it's a way to acknowledge ALL of the holidays in the season. The only people that get mad about that are Christians, generally. They want everyone to say "Merry Christmas".

Now--if I were a store clerk, and went according to MY beliefs, and wished everyone a great Solstice--how many people would that offend?

I think anyone should be able to wish another person a happy whatever-their-personal-holiday-is. I don't want to suppress ANY religion.

BUT--I'm ALSO not going to sit and take it if my boss instructs me to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, because I personally don't believe it.

No one wants to suppress your pagon religion but if your religion consists of 0.0000000000001% of the american population don't expect your religion to have as much prominence as one that consists of almost 80% of the Population. December for centuaries has always been recognised in Europe, US and over 60% of the countries in the world as a time to celebrate Christmas. When muslims celebrate Ramadan I don't go around harassing them to include my religion and not suppress it. So why is that when Christians have their holiday every little religion needs to all of sudden be recognised? & for an FYI the reason December 25 is a National holiday in countries all over the world its not because of your pagon moon god I can tell you that... lol

Your religion chose December 25th to coincide with Saturnalia--back when Christians were 0.0000000001% of the population.

I'm NOT trying to suppress your religion. I'm just trying to point out that people say "Happy Holidays" because MANY religions have holidays in December. Hate to point this out to you, but Hannukah was around before Christmas, too :P

In December you have: Hannukah (Judaism); Bodhi Day (Buddhism); Eid al-adha (Islamic); Christmas (Christian); Solstice/Saturnalia/Yule (Pagan); Kwanzaa (African-American).

I don't know about you, but I count SIX holidays in that list. And "every little religion"? Yeah--because Buddhism, Judaism, and Islam are "little religions".

I don't need to be recognized, either. Is your God as close-minded as you are? I just need to not be suppressed. Religious freedom in America means ALL religions. I don't stop you from stealing my religions traditions and believing them to be your own--and I expect the same from you.

Your religion chose December 25th to coincide with Saturnalia--back when Christians were 0.0000000001% of the population.

I'm NOT trying to suppress your religion. I'm just trying to point out that people say "Happy Holidays" because MANY religions have holidays in December. Hate to point this out to you, but Hannukah was around before Christmas, too :P

In December you have: Hannukah (Judaism); Bodhi Day (Buddhism); Eid al-adha (Islamic); Christmas (Christian); Solstice/Saturnalia/Yule (Pagan); Kwanzaa (African-American).

I don't know about you, but I count SIX holidays in that list. And "every little religion"? Yeah--because Buddhism, Judaism, and Islam are "little religions".

I don't need to be recognized, either. Is your God as close-minded as you are? I just need to not be suppressed. Religious freedom in America means ALL religions. I don't stop you from stealing my religions traditions and believing them to be your own--and I expect the same from you.

Okey... all those Holidays are wonderful and are free to celebrate but they obviously don't receive the same recognision as Christmas because those religions represent fractions of a percentage of the population and most of them are not part of the Unites State's historic herritage that has always recognised Christmas, maybe you should be asking yourself why December 25 Christmas Day is National Holiday and those other ones are not.

Aton3 disagrees: The 'traditions' you mention have NOTHING to do with any Saviour!

Lol.. you must be slow or you just don't know any history

So i think non-christians need to make up their minds. If they want to part take in our Christmas traditions, trees stanta etc, they are free to do so but they should not have double standard and demand that we call it happy holiday because it is just a holiday, its Christmas.
.......

okey... all those Holidays are wonderful and are free to celebrate but they obviously dont recieve the same recognision as Christmas because those religions represent fractions of a percentage of the population
Here's what your position amounts to, as I read it:

"There's more of US than of THEM, so THEY should greet EVERYBODY with best wishes for OUR holiday. If they don't, it shows that they're Anti-Christian"

Pathetic.


Is your God as close-minded as you are?

Must be.

Yes, Christmas is an evil holiday. I will as usual dress up in my Satan costume, light my dry pine tree on fire and dance around it with wreckless abandon. After the death dance has been completed, we will have a wild drunkin orgy and finish up by drinking the blood of a virgin.
We will then settle in the parlor where we will exchange gifts with our evil loved ones. I just love this time of year.

Here's what your position amounts to, as I read it:

[QUOTE]"There's more of US than of THEM, so THEY should greet EVERYBODY with best wishes for OUR holiday. If they don't, it shows that they're Anti-Christian"Pathetic[/Q.UOTE]

Bingo, they already have Christmas decorations, Christmas Music playing, Santa etc in public places and the a day off, so what's big deal? Welcome to America, after all the National Holiday is on Decemeber 25th Christmas day and that is the holiday that is and always has been "nationaly" recognised even by taking the day off in this country. So like I said before, if it makes you mad that Christmas gets more recognision then you can move to a country that doesn't recognise Christmas. The are plenty of countries that don't in the middle east and Asia.

[QUOTE]Must be

Yes, call Him closed minded if you want, but He happens to say He is the one and Only God who created the Universe.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I think that if after 17 pages and 168 posts someone doesn't "get it"; perhaps we should stop trying to explain it... It apparently does no good, and I don't want to get a hand cramp trying to explain it all over again.

It should just be Merry Christmas because ALL of these stores have Christmas lights, Trees, Santa etc so if they really want to be "inclusive" of all religions they should not display Christmas lights, play Christmas music e.t.c Because that means the store is sending a message that they do support Christmas anyway. so Why not say Merry Christamas.


Heh! I just saw a Vacum commertial that had a santa. And he said Happy Holidays. I laughed.

Actually, This year hasn't been so bad. I found that a lot of stores say Merry Christmas. Actually all the one's I've been too haven't said it. Except the Disny Store. But usually they just say have a nice day.

You want Christ back in Christmas? Then by all means wish people a Merry Christmas. Just don't get mad when they wish YOU happy holidays because they aren't Christians.

Actually, When I say Merry Christmas They wish me it back.

Synnen disagrees: But you WILL find items--like lights, and gifts and wreaths and candles and mistletoe and holly that cater to the PAGAN community. It was OUR holiday first, and they STILL push the Saturnalia aspects, only they call it Christmas now.

So What your saying is, Christmas was the pagan's holiday first?

I think it depends where you live too, I never hear happy holidays and everyone at stores and places are really reallly really nice x5. Idk people just seem happier and stuff, maybe it was the large amount of snow that adds that effect, but w/e it is, my teachers still say christmas break and so do I and everyone I know. Ive never heard of Holiday Break

So What your saying is, Christmas was the pagan's holiday first?


Christmas' pagan origins (http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm)

Considering that Pagan traditions, especially those of the Romans, Celts, and Egyptians, were in place well before 1 AD, I would say that Pagan traditions existed first, and were adopted into Christian religions.

Of COURSE, this is debated. EVERYTHING having to do with Christianity is debated CONSTANTLY (or at least it seems that way to me).

Either way--Saturnalia, Yule, and Sol Invictus were around long before Christianity was, and have many of the same traditions--candles, gifts, and evergreen trees being some of the major ones.

Christians can't even agree on when Christ's birthday WAS. So--why NOT pick a day and traditions that would make it easy to convert people?

Merry or Happy whatever you have... why can't we just leave it at that? Happy Holidays is just as nice (if you are christian) and if you aren't, then it covers you too. I just don't agree with Santa saying hahaha.

BTW: Happy PB&J in Your Pantry Day, Synnen (because around this time of year... that's all we have money left for, heehee)... just kidding... have a happy solstice (did I spell that right?)... or would it be Merry Solstice?? Whichever, live it up to the fullest of your ability. And may everyone wish me a merry christmas :)

Lets all sing:
"Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday, Dear Mithra,
Happy Birthday to you."

Lets all sing:
"Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday, Dear Mithra,
Happy Birthday to you."


Who?

I'm unsubscribing from this thread now. Happy Festivus, everybody!

Happy Festivus!
The pole looks great. Let the arm wrestling begin!

Tj3:
I don't worship everyone whom I wish a happy Birthday. Mithra was born of a virgin, on December 25, had 12 followers, one for each house in the Zodiac , institued a Eucharist to be celebrated in his memory, died and was resurrected. If that is not the myth from which Paul extrated his Christ, then the moon is made of green cheese. No one knows when Jesus was born (unless you have found a record of his birth certificate)... could be anywhere (using YOUR scripture as a reference) from 6 b.c.e. to 4 c.e. HIS birthday is one more steal from pagan origins. Worship whom ever you will, but at least KNOW who it is you worship!

Tj3:
I don't worship everyone whom I wish a happy Birthday. Mithra was born of a virgin, on December 25, had 12 followers, one for each house in the Zodiac , institued a Eucharist to be celebrated in his memory, died and was resurrected. If that is not the myth from which Paul extrated his Christ, then the moon is made of green cheese. No one knows when Jesus was born (unless you have found a record of his birth certificate)....could be anywhere (using YOUR scripture as a reference) from 6 b.c.e. to 4 c.e. HIS birthday is one more steal from pagan origins. Worship whom ever you will, but at least KNOW who it is you worship!

1) Jesus was not born on December 25th. The date was chosen as a date to celebrate His birth. The date of His birth is not important to Christians.

2) Historical evidence for Mithraism goes back to approximately 90AD, therefore if one was a copy, it would have to be Mithraism copying from Christianity

3) Mithra was not born of a virgin, the myth is that he was born from a rock.

4) Jesus had thousands of followers (3,000 came to follow Jesus in one day - Acts 2). He had 12 apostles.

5) Mithra did not sacrifice himself, he sacrificed a bull. Without a death, there could be no resurrection.

Ritual meals were held for many reasons and many religions in the middle east at that time, so one more doesn't prove anything. In fact none of these points means anything after you realize that the myth of Mithra is too late to have been a source for the Biblical account of Jesus.

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.

Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture... including the Rig Veda... making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"... and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great... and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion throughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e. and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.


You were trying to suggest a comparison for the exact day with the myth of Mithra, and the exact date is not important. What is important is that Jesus was born and died for our sins on the cross.



Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture... including the Rig Veda... making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"... and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great... and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion throughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e. and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

I could refute your dates, but it does not matter and it is not worth the effort, because not only does history disagree with your claims, but the parallels that you claimed do not exist.

Tj3:

The date of Jesus birth should be of PROFOUND importance to those Christians who claim the Bible is the inerrent, inspired word of God... for the chronlogical 'evidence' found in the Bible is totally contradictroy, making it impossible to determine whether Jesus was born in 6 b.c.e. or 4 c.e.

Mithra (Mitra) and the religon of Mitraism is attested to in both Iranian and Hindu Scripture...including the Rig Veda....making belief in Mithra preceeeding Christianity by more than a Century. (See Canney's "Encyclopedia of Religons"...and refer to the historical writings of S. REINACH. Mithraism has spread to the entire Oriental world during the reign of Alexander the Great...and was introduced into the West in the first half of the First Century c.e "The immense popularity of his worship is attested by the monuments illustrative of it which have been found scattered in profusion thoughout the Roman Empire.

The fact that Mithrism predated Christianity to about 1400 b.c.e., and that Paul was immersed in the Hellenistic millieu where dying and resurrected 'saviours' were a dime-a-dozen, certainly shoots your 90AD theory right out of the historical pond, and shows exactly WHERE Paul came up with the idea for his God/Messiah.

It doesn't matter what day Jesus was born. It's that he WAS born, that is what is important.

Just my two cents for whatever it's worth...

While Christmas and the celebration thereof has, in past years, represented the birth of Jesus, our Savior, in today's world it's just a holiday wherein you give gifts to friends, family, etc. thanks much to commercialization.

The Bible is very specific about the 'Holy' days we are to celebrate and "Christmas" is nowhere to be found among that list.

With those thoughts in mind, I don't think saying, "Happy Holidays" or being told "Happy Holidays" is necessarily a bad thing because as Christians (or other) we are not entitled to anything but equality, the pursuit of happiness and religious freedom just like those who may not celebrate what we believe in but are US citizens.

When a Christian (or other) gets so upset about the PCness we are doing the very same as the rest of the groups who carry on and by default we are placing ourselves in the very same 'category' if you will.

Granted, the US was originally puritanical and Christian. Each person who immigrated here back then did so for opportunity and to escape religious persecution. That is why the Constitution allows for religious freedom. Which means, all those immigrating here or those who are already here but choosing other forms of religion are afforded that very same religious freedom without persecution.

The US being the melting pot of diversity that it is and that we have touted for years upon years, we can't much expect that "Christianity and Christians" would remain the majority.

While saying "Merry Christmas" is not persecuting, in my humble opinion, some may feel it is. Thus the PCness of "Happy Holidays" which covers every possibility under the sun, moon and stars.

As a God fearing human, I do not feel the need to say "Merry Christmas" in order to know what I believe, celebrate what I believe and express my joy and wishes for joy to others during this season.

With that said, I wish all Christians a Merry Christmas and to the rest of you, whatever religion you may be, I wish you Happy Holidays.

Aton3 disagrees: If you have no records of his "birth", how can you ever expect anyone to even believe that he ever existed??

It's a little thing I like to call Faith and Believing.

Hello.

(For those who celebrate... )I hope everyone had a very MERRY CHRISTMAS! :)

With respect to records of Jesus birth, that is a non-issue. It would be interesting to ask Aton to produce the records documenting the birth of most historical figures of that timeframe. They also do not exist. Would Aton therefore deny that they were born?

Why do some people try to apply one standard for the evidence of the facts surrounding Jesus, and a dramatically lesser standard for believing that other parts of history are absolute fact?

TJ3--Point to me some evidence NOT in the Bible. The Bible is enough for Christians, but NOT for the rest of us. Also--many of us who have pagan religions had much of our history obliterated with the burning of witches--by Christians!--throughout the centuries.

To everyone else--I hope you had a truly wonderful holiday! I hope the Jews had a terrific Hannukah, and the Christians a wonderful Christmas! To my fellow Pagans--I hope your Solstice/Yule/Saturnalia was as wonderful and profound as mine was! To those who celebrate Ramadan and Kwanzaa--I'm not sure on the dates for those this year, so I hope it was/will be all that you hope!

To everyone, I hope your New Year is filled with health, prosperity, truth, love, and peace!

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!

Why SHOULD I leave? Why should I HAVE to leave?

I was born here too!

THAT is why people get p!ssy at Christians, you know. That whole attitude of "there are more of us, so do it OUR way" is pretty intolerant and hypocritical in a country where there is freedom of religion.

Funny thing--I went with my husband's Christian family to church on Christmas eve. The pastor started the sermon out with a political story about how some Christians overcame the whole "prayer in school" thing. It made me so mad that I forgot the reason we were all together was supposed to be "love", and it made me NOT listen to the rest of her sermon. Who was she preaching to--the choir? Any non-Christian in her audience (and I knew of a couple others who agreed with me after the service) was so completely turned off by the pastor's timing and choice of sermon on a day (of ALL days!) when love and tolerance should have been the message. Is THAT how you all hope to convert people, and win them to your cause?

I frankly don't CARE that you outnumber me. If you can be vocal about YOUR religion, I can be vocal about MINE, right? And so can thousands of others--and we ARE!

We aren't asking you to give up your religion, or convert to any of our religions. We ARE asking that you be as tolerant to OUR religions as we've been to YOURS for the last 200 years.

But--I guess that's too much to ask from a religion who touts that you should turn the other cheek and that you should treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated, hmm?

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!
Worthbeads, most of us who engage in these threads are controversial at one time or another on this web site. Your post doesn't have anything to do with your apparent desire to proudly display your controversial nature. Your attempt to dictate how people should respond to you is rather Hitleresque in nature. Why shouldn't someone reply and tell you that you are a "racist pig" when it is obvious that is just what you are?

"Just be thankful we even let you into our country." Are you serious? Are you a Native American who converted to Christianity? Or, were you instrumental in the formation and organization of the country? Did you come over on the Mayflower? You didn't "let" me into this country. I was born here just as you were.

The people who founded this country were of a different Christianity than most of the more vocal Christian respondents on this thread. The majority of the founding fathers of the U.S. were Episcopalian/Anglican, followed by Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Unitarian, Methodist, Calvinist. Puritans and Deists were among them.

Prior to the formation of the United States, not only were the original inhabitants NOT Christian (Native Americans), but the people who chose to leave their homelands behind and begin life in a harsh and unknown environment chose to do so as a direct result of being persecuted in their own countries for their religious beliefs.

Worthbeads (and others who have stated a desire that non-Christians leave the U.S.), why did your ancestors come to this country and not stay in their homeland? My ancestors were persecuted and murdered for their beliefs too. They chose this country due to the invitation that was made to them to live in a land where they would find freedom from religious persecution. So, all the mewling on this thread and others throughout this web site about how those of us who are not Christian should be thankful to Christians for allowing us to live in the U.S. is purely hate inspired garbage.

Your tired of.. What I am tired of are people who are intolerant of anyone who does not pray as they do and find that it is more appropriate to spread words of hate rather than love. I am tired of people who are so steeped in their hatred of others that they assume simply because someone wishes them a Happy Holiday that the person offering up a simple pleasantry this time of year, is purposefully trying to undermine Christmas and in so doing, assuming that person is trying to undermine their entire belief system. It is a very paranoid delusion. You don't like it when people in stores don't wish you a Merry Christmas? As DeMaria said much earlier on, let them know you disapprove by not shopping in their stores. But to verbally abuse people here, tell them they should leave this country because they don't want to say "Merry Christmas" because they do not celebrate it, is more than intolerant. It smacks of racism. Your sense of entitlement, along with Soldout's here on this thread, are figments of your fractured imaginations and meanderings.

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?

By the way, some people don't even think about the many different religious affiliations this time of year. They choose "Happy Holidays" to include not only Christmas (or Hannukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Festivus,. ) but the New Year as well. Take the freaking chips off your shoulders already and recognize that people are merely offering up a different pleasantry this time of year instead of the usual "Have a nice day."

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

I agree here.

Ruby, you kick butt! :D

Worthbeads, most of us who engage in these threads are controversial at one time or another on this web site. Your post doesn't have anything to do with your apparent desire to proudly display your controversial nature. Your attempt to dictate how people should respond to you is rather Hitleresque in nature. Why shouldn't someone reply and tell you that you are a "racist pig" when it is obvious that is just what you are?

"Just be thankful we even let you into our country." Are you serious? Are you a Native American who converted to Christianity? Or, were you instrumental in the formation and organization of the country? Did you come over on the Mayflower? You didn't "let" me into this country. I was born here just as you were.

The people who founded this country were of a different Christianity than most of the more vocal Christian respondents on this thread. The majority of the founding fathers of the U.S. were Episcopalian/Anglican, followed by Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Dutch Reformed/German Reformed, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Unitarian, Methodist, Calvinist. Puritans and Deists were among them.

Prior to the formation of the United States, not only were the original inhabitants NOT Christian (Native Americans), but the people who chose to leave their homelands behind and begin life in a harsh and unknown environment chose to do so as a direct result of being persecuted in their own countries for their beliefs.

Worthbeads (and others who have stated a desire that non-Christians leave the U.S.), why did your ancestors come to this country and not stay in their homeland? My ancestors were persecuted and murdered for their beliefs too. They chose this country due to the invitation that was made to them to live in a land where they would find freedom from religious persecution. So, all the mewling on this thread and others throughout this web site about how those of us who are not Christian should be thankful to Christians for allowing us to live in the U.S. is purely hate inspired garbage.

Your tired of...? What I am tired of are people who are intolerant of anyone who does not pray as they do and find that it is more appropriate to spread words of hate rather than love. I am tired of people who are so steeped in their hatred of others that they assume simply because someone wishes them a Happy Holiday that the person offering up a simple pleasantry this time of year, is purposefully trying to undermine Christmas and in so doing, assuming that person is trying to undermine their entire belief system. It is a very paranoid delusion. You don't like it when people in stores don't wish you a Merry Christmas? As DeMaria said much earlier on, let them know you disapprove by not shopping in their stores. But to verbally abuse people here, tell them they should leave this country because they don't want to say "Merry Christmas" because they do not celebrate it, is more than intolerant. It smacks of racism. Your sense of entitlement, along with Soldout's here on this thread, are figments of your fractured imaginations and meanderings.

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?

By the way, some people don't even think about the many different religious affiliations this time of year. They choose "Happy Holidays" to include not only Christmas (or Hannukah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, Festivus,...) but the New Year as well. Take the freaking chips off your shoulders already and recognize that people are merely offering up a different pleasantry this time of year instead of the usual "Have a nice day."

Do you know what I am really tired of? People like you, RudyPitbull. People like you take what I say and twist it a thousand times, creating an idea that is not mine but claiming it is. Did I say I hated people of other religions? Did I say I wanted them out of this country? No. Then why do you claim that I do? If anyone here is a judgmental pig, it is you. Rather than warping people's opinions, respect them instead.

And by the way, the reason I say "Nobody call me a racist pig" is because I Don't want them two. Maybe next time if you actually use your head you might follow directions.

The original post by Fallen2Grace asked for people's opinions. People gave their opinions. Why can't some individuals on this web site graciously accept that there will be differences of opinions and leave it at that instead of getting into a verbal dispute or choose to spew hateful garbage such as telling people to leave this country?



All right, first let's start with you. Respect my opinion!

Many of us from outside the U.S. read this thread and feels lucky we do not live there. So-called 'christians' there have bastardized the teachings of Jesus into something unrecognizable.

I can see that. I think it stems from the sense of "greatness" and "superiority" many Americans feel they have simply because they are American. People also have a tendency to act like complete a-holes when in large groups, or look that way when referred to en masse. To be fair, most of the people I encounter on a daily basis (99.9%) don't project their radicalism quite like it's done on this site. I promise, not all of us 'mericans are bad! :D

Back to the topic...

What I'm tired of is people of other religions complaining about Christian related stuff, including Christmas. Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country!

And don't be replying and telling me what a racist pig I am, because I know my views are controversial, they always are. Again, that's what you get for coming into a controversial country!
I did not twist your words. They are right there in black and white. Of course you are entitled to your opinion worthbeads, but what you have written is not an opinion, it is a message full of hate for others who do not believe as you do. Your follow up posts just cement it.

Where does it say I hate people of other religions? Where does it say I want them out of the country. Where does it say "this is not my opinion, just some racist stuff I wanted to yell at everyone because I hate all living things"?

Please keep in mind my follow up questions were supposed to send a message of my outrage, but my original post wasn't supposed to be pure hatred, despite what you think.

I agree with Ruby.

Although, I did come over on the Mayflower (or my direct descendant did... I have proof) LOL. Leave it be that you all don't agree. Isn't that the greatness of our world? That people can be different and still interact peacefully?

There is a difference in posting your opinion and being pig-headed and rude about it. I enjoy the different cultures and religions on here. It is interesting to learn of others. Why can't we just leave it at that?

Did I say I wanted them out of this country? Yes you did. Please reread what you wrote.

If anyone here is a judgmental pig, it is you. Rather than warping people's opinions, respect them instead. Rather than putting words in people's mouths, read what you have written and the responses that follow. I never called you a judgmental pig. You however have chosen to disparage me, why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:


And by the way, the reason I say "Nobody call me a racist pig" is because I Don't want them two. Maybe next time if you actually use your head you might follow directions. I do know you didn't want anyone to call you that. Unfortunately, I don't feel the need to have someone dictate to me what I can and cannot do. I call them as I see them. You were the one who originally used the words, not I. Obviously, somewhere in your psyche, you already knew that you would be viewed that way.

Alright, first let's start with you. Respect my opinion!


Actually, If you really want respect. Start Respecting other people first. That's how it works. You can't just come in here and say something like that and demand respect. Nobody, including me will give it to you.

Yes you did. Please reread what you wrote.
Rather than putting words in people's mouths, read what you have written and the responses that follow. I never called you a judgmental pig. You however have chosen to disparage me, why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:

I do know you didn't want anyone to call you that. Unfortunately, I don't feel the need to have someone dictate to me what I can and cannot do. I call them as I see them. You were the one who originally used the words, not I. Obviously, somewhere in your psyche, you already knew that you would be viewed that way.

Please enlighten me by quoting my words and highlight the part where I said "I want people of other religions out of this country.

Do you have an answer?

Interesting how you are focusing on one point to defend your hateful words. All right, I will bite and attempt to explain how I got from point a to point b.

Pardon my French, but unless you have the balls to take over the U.S. you don't complain about Christian activities in a dominantly christiam country! Just be thankful we even let you into our country! Although I am not sure what "Christian activities" you believe that non-Christians are complaining about, I interpret this as it is written. It reads to me as if you are telling all non-Christians that they should grow a pair, take over the U.S. from all Christians. Then what? What do you expect non-Christians to do with Christians if we took over? The only answer would be to kick you out of the country so we could be the majority. If we aren't grateful to Christians for allowing us into the country, then what? Why don't you explain what you have written here worthbeads so that we can all understand that your words were completely misunderstood by me, the "judgmental pig"?

What I'm saying is that unless a certain religious group wants to become the leading ethnicity and semi-control the U.S. by completely changing the U.S.'s customs (or take over by force and demand their customs to be participated in), they should expect Christians customs to be imposed.

I'll use a different example to show what I am saying.

There's a club. The majority of the people in the club want to talk about books, while the minority want to talk about music. So, for the time being it is a book club and everyone goes along with it. Then one day a music lover says that they should not be forced to read books, so the club should no longer be a book club. Since it is no longer a book club, the book lovers will not be able to openly read books in the club, even though the majority of people in the club are book lovers.

Doesn't it seem just a little unfair to the book lovers?

I still don't agree, worthbeads. That is not how it is here! Only a "minority" of the people here (christians or non) feel that way.

Please everyone... don't take his words for how "we" are in the US. I can't say, out of the big city I know, that have come in contact with ANYONE who thinks this way. It is insulting to our country... the land of the free. The point of "the free", is that we are "free" to celebrate how "we" want to!

Please tell me how it insults you and/or the U.S.

Because you have now placed in peoples minds that the US is a group of heartless, self-centered people. For the most part, I don't think we are. Most people I know respect others cultures and religions.

Interesting comparison. Unfortunately, you are comparing apples to oranges. The United States isn't a book club. We have a constitution that allows us freedom of religion. Book clubs have bylaws that dictate what is to be discussed. So if you want to draw a comparison between the two, in this country, under our current constitution, we are allowed to talk about books and music together any time we wish. Just because Christians are the majority, freedom to choose what religion we follow is every person's birthright in this country.

If you read my original response to you, I never stated that you told non-Christians to leave the country. I was including other people that stated that during the discussion on this thread, when I was focusing on your telling non-Christians we should be thankful to Christians for allowing us into the country. But, your follow-up posts, taking exception to the wrong thing, tells me that you agree with those other people. Synnen obviously read the same thing in your post that I did.

Worthbeads, for the most part, I have always liked your posts and your "railing against the machine." This one from you came out of left field and I am very surprised and disappointed at your choice of words here.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't like it when one person doesn't like a belief so no one else can publicly show that belief. I know that that one person has a right to not have that belief, but do they really have to ruin everyone else's fun?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't like it when one person doesn't like a belief so no one else can publicly show that belief. I know that that one person has a right to not have that belief, but do they really have to ruin everyone else's fun?


Much better put. This is no comparison to what you originally posted. I also took what you said they way the non-christians did.

Interesting comparison. Unfortunately, you are comparing apples to oranges. The United States isn't a book club. We have a constitution that allows us freedom of religion. Book clubs have bylaws that dictate what is to be discussed. So if you want to draw a comparison between the two, in this country, under our current constitution, we are allowed to talk about books and music together any time we wish. Just because Christians are the majority, freedom to choose what religion we follow is every person's birthright in this country.

If you read my original response to you, I never stated that you told non-Christians to leave the country. I was including other people that stated that during the discussion on this thread, when I was focusing on your telling non-Christians we should be thankful to Christians for allowing us into the country. But, your followup posts, taking exception to the wrong thing, tells me that you agree with those other people. Synnen obviously read the same thing in your post that I did.

Worthbeads, for the most part, I have always liked your posts and your "railing against the machine." This one from you came out of left field and I am very surprised and disappointed at your choice of words here.

Yep, that does sound like me. I'm fun to watch, but a pain to go against.

Sorry to be so picky, but you did in fact say that I told non-christians to leave the country.


Worthbeads (and others who have stated a desire that non-Christians leave the U.S.), why did your ancestors come to this country and not stay in their homeland?

And again


Did I say I wanted them out of this country?
Reply:

Yes you did. Please reread what you wrote.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't like it when one person doesn't like a belief so no one else can publicly show that belief. I know that that one person has a right to not have that belief, but do they really have to ruin everyone else's fun?
That is perfect worthbeads. Devoid of inflammatory comments.

I agree with you on this. People should not rain on other people's parades. For me, when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas or anything that is done with good intent, I always wish them the same thing.

I am glad you can see it my way.

I guess I should say I'm sorry to everyone for being hostile and rude, but I can get really defensive. Defensiveness is infused in my blood.

Sorry, I have to keep walking away from the computer.

Worthbeads, when I use a parenthesis, it is to separate my thoughts from the previous line or words. So, you were choosing to focus on the wrong thing. Again, I was including those "others" in my upbraiding of the general attitude about non-Christians handed out here on this thread. And, again, my follow up was due to your follow up posts where you chose to focus on that point and not on what I was actually saying to you. Synnen read it the same way. If I hadn't done it, you wouldn't have gotten to the point you have gotten to now. Being defensive is all right if you are defending something that is devoid of inflammatory or derogatory remarks. You made my toes curl on that post of yours!

Apology accepted.

What I'm saying is that unless a certain religious group wants to become the leading ethnicity and semi-control the U.S. by completely changing the U.S.'s customs (or take over by force and demand their customs to be participated in), they should expect Christians customs to be imposed.

I know I'm coming in on this conversation late, but Worthbead wrote that short a revolution or something, people "should expect Christians' customs to be imposed." I am not sure if he really meant that, but I wanted to point out that in the U.S. no one should expect any religion's customs to be imposed. Freedom of religious expression is guaranteed by the first amendment. No one HAS to go to a particular church and no one HAS to say "Merry Christmas!" :)

Christians are still the majority in the U.S. but our country is becoming more religiously diverse all the time. Since 1990, the number of self identified Christians has declined from 86% to 71% (and will probably drop below 70% in 2008). Over the same period, those 15% of people who left Christianity either joined a non-Christian religion or became agnostics or atheists. If this keeps up, the number of non-Christians will equal the number of Christians in just 35 years.

I hope we can all go on putting up with one another, whatever our personal beliefs about God. I wouldn't want to see us move toward imposing a single religion on everyone.

Just for the record, I'm not religious, but I like and am used to "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year." I prefer it to "Happy Holidays" and I'm pretty oblivious to all the other holidays that happen this time of year. But I wouldn't want to impose my preferences on someone if it made them uncomfortable. To me, Christmas isn't about insisting that others celebrate exactly what I celebrate in exactly the same way by saying the same words...
Cheers,
Asking

But with that said, no one should be forced NOT to say Merry Chrsitmas either, if the person greeting you at walmart is christian, they can say merrry christmas, as people go in to buy christmas trees, during christmas sales, as bell ringers are asking for money for christmas.

If the person is not chirstan, they don't have to say merry christmas.

And you know what, I have not seen a single worker refusing to take Christmas vacation, and I did not get my mail delivered on Christmas, the fact is America does reconise Christmas as a holiday.

I agree, Chuck, employers should not forbid their employees from saying "Merry Christmas" "Happy Ramadan" or simply "Have a nice day". But if one takes issue with that, they should address the organization, not the individual.

Yes, they can forbide them from telling you to >>>>>>> but I would not care if they told me a happy ramadan, or even a happy solstice,
( Ok, I would have issues with that Kwanza, but we can address that in a separate thread latter if anyone wants to)

The idea is freedom of religion, not freedom of all but christian religions.

I agree, Chuck, employers should not forbid their employees from saying "Merry Christmas" "Happy Ramadan" or simply "Have a nice day". But if one takes issue with that, they should address the organization, not the individual.
That's what I was trying to say.

I think people are reiterating the same ideas here.

1. Christians want their holiday recognized as the major one of the season.
2. No one believes that saying "Merry Christmas" is the equivalent of a 4 letter word.
3. Non-Christians just want the same respect for THEIR holidays as Christians get. Note that this is NOT saying that Christians should go out of their way to celebrate these other holidays--just that if someone wishes you "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Solstice" it should be taken in the way it's offered, not as an undermining of the Christian faith.


I *would* like to note one thing, here, though: Christian posters have brought up that Christmas is recognized by our government as a secular holiday. This is true, but probably NOT for the reasons you wish. It's not because our government is Christian, and it's not because "everyone essentially celebrates Christmas". It's because, with Christians being in the majority in our country, half of the government employees would call in sick every year on Christmas, and nothing would get done anyway. So--why NOT just give them the day off as one of their 12 holidays, or however many it is.

I worked for the state at one point, in the Admissions office of a major university. As a non-Christian, I was generally the skeleton crew on Christian holidays (INCLUDING Christmas), and in exchange I got MY major holidays off. If you are a non-Christian, there is generally something you can do for your place of business on Christian holidays, and most employers are HAPPY to let you work on Christian holidays in exchange for your own holidays off. One girl always took the 8 days of Hannukah off, and worked the phones the week of Christmas. My boss was happy to let me work a Saturday in exchange for the day after a major celebration (as many of my celebrations are done at night). So--it's NOT because our government is Christian--it's because 81% of the employees wouldn't be there anyway, so it's easier to just schedule it as a day off.