How do we,who need to take medications daily,stay compliant,(take them as prescribed) and why do we go off them, knowing the results if we do.

I for one, remember the times when I went off, even for a few weeks, knowing the outcome might not be to my liking,but justified it saying the side effects are too much and I deserve to live better.

Ken, this is a good thread, and I may make it a sticky for the medications board.

Staying compliant is very hard for the individual as well as the health care worker. This pertains to all medications, not just those that deal with mental health aspects.

You see, the meds, whether it be for high blood pressure, hypo/hyperthyroidism, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc... make people feel better than their pre-medicated state. So, once a patient feels better many think they are "cured" and this is just not so.

To remain compliant on medications it is up to the health care provider, whether it be the doctor, but usually the nurse, to educate the patient on their particular malady so that they understand that the medications need to be taken EXACTLY as prescribed.

Many people who have an infection, for instance, take their medications until the symptoms are gone... so they think that they are healthy again, even if they only took the antibiotic for 3 days instead of the prescribed 10 days. This is one reason we have developed superbugs like MRSA. The bacteria becomes dormant rather than killed completely and then they mutate and become resistant to drugs.

People with schizophrenia, as another instance, begin to feel better symptoms seem to disappear, so they think they are "better" when in fact it is the medication balancing out the neurotransmitters that are not working correctly in the brain. When they quit their meds the psychosis comes back full force, and many times worse than in the beginning. When this happens there is no way to turn back the hands of time, the schizophrenia has gotten worse and will not regress, so different meds are needed.

Again, it is all about education of the particular illness involved. I, as a health care worker, am responsible for educating patients regarding their illness... what to expect regarding side-effects of medications... how long to take the meds, etc.

KBC agrees: You mean I get my first 'sticky'?? Thanks J-9

Yes, you have your own personal sticky and I think it is very well warranted.

Good thought here Ken, this was much needed. I am all about education and medicine... Well, here we go. I hope the thread grows and grows.

As J_9 said
Again, it is all about education of the particular illness involved. What to expect regarding side-effects of medications... how long to take the meds, etc.


There are things you can do but it depends on what you are taking what medicines for and
So forth. Many people try alternative herbs, vitamins and minerals but you have to know what ones work with your meds and what ones work against them and what ones accelerate the effect. So you should ask your doc to work with you if you want to go the alternative route.

For example, some people can take chromium picolinate for diabetes but they need to keep their levels monitored all the more cause you usually need less insolin.

When you take statin drugs for cholestrol you should take omega and Q 10.
If you look that up on the internet you will see that many doctors are saying it is important.

Also as J_9 said you have to take the whole script for antibiotics, but once you are through with it it is important to take probiotics or eat yogurt to replace healthy bacteria that your body needs.

I have been doing the alternative supplements and nutrition for preventative measures. Many people my age are already getting put on so many meds they look like a walking pharmacy. I spent the past 10 years teaching myself the alternative stuff and I am healthier than I was in my 20's (30 years ago!)

I am currently on prescribed Depakote and Celexa.

The medications are only effective for a short time,outside stimulus has been eliminated to a few needful things,stresses are very low.

For the past month, I have been going through many multi-cycling episodes,manic to the point of sleep losses,often up for 14 hours,sleeping for 2-3 and up for another 14 or so.

No depression as of yet.

My mind is cloudy, but I can still function,just not at full capacity when I get too tired.(cabinet making requires some clearheadedness to operate the power tools)

My appointments with a psychiatrist is every 3 months, due to the lack of Dr's in the remote area I live in.(closest clinic is 50 miles round trip) closest private Dr is 80 miles round trip.

I am lacking sleep, serenity falls off during these times also. My cravings for food, especially sweet foods, rises by 5 fold, impulsiveness is erratic,sometimes overwhelming, I fall prey to them, going on spending sprees and excessive activities( don't need sleep, can do just about anything, got a lot of time on my hands)

Working in the shop becomes second in line to far fetched ideas, useless pursuits ending in some shame, because I didn't get anything done (at least what I thought I should do that day)

Focus can be done through concentration,although it brings headaches on if I do it for too long.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? It is the first signs of bi-polar relapse. My signal flairs are going off, and I am clearly needing help.

My post here will hopefully help others as to what to do when this kind of thing happens to you. All answers are appreciated.

Ken

Ken, this sounds very familiar. It is rapid cycling bipolar, if my memory serves me correctly (I'm not where I can get a hold of my textbook at the moment).

Let me ask how long you have been on the Depakote and Celexa and what the dosage is. Many people with bipolar disorder learn to adjust the dosage of their medications according to the symptoms. What other meds have you tried?

Now, the drive that you mention (50 miles round trip and 80 miles round trip) is nothing really, especially when you are in need of some help. I drive 95 miles round trip 3 or 4 days a week. LOL

How long have you been going through this current manic phase?

Been on these meds for over 6 months.

DepakoteER 1500 mg daily.

Celexa 20 mg daily, just got lowered for manic behavior 2 weeks ago)

I have been on almost every medication on the market today,

Paxil
Prozac
Zoloft
Trileptal
Lamictal

Probably a few I can't remember right now also.

Depakote
Lithium

Again a few I can't remember.

Zyprexa

Adivan(sp?) during hospital visits,that one really helps.

Many for the shakes, all low dosages.

Length of time in this phase,1 month or so.

And I need to amend that 'drive' thing (clear thought prevailing after the fact)

It's not the drive so much(that just makes me feel better,to see someone face to face)its the contacting of the doctor for changes.The 'system' is falling short of thorough help,lack of funds play a huge part in this.

These came on suddenly and are very upsetting( you saw some of my harsh statements on here lately)

1500mg Depakote? Can I ask how much you weigh? The dosage is dependent on your weight. This may be too little or too much, which, either way could be causing this episode.

Are you involved with NAMI?

Had a meeting yesterday with them, yes.

Good, I found one in your area, I was going to give you the #, but if you met with them, then you are on the right track.

Now, your weight? I would like to calculate your dosage to see if you are in the correct therapeutic range.

Just had my valporic acid level tested 2 weeks ago, I am within the therapeutic range(don't remember the actual numbers, but it was somewhere in the middle of the scale.)

Any way, I am 6'1" 230 lbs

Thanks. You are indeed on the max dosage. Are you taking it all at once or twice a day? You should be taking 750mg twice a day.

You say the Celexa was decreased due to mania. Has your mania gotten better or worse since the decrease?

Actually the mania is close to the same, maybe a little less.

The depakote is once nightly,being ER tabs, it does take time to disburse and testing was 12 hours after last dosage.

Sorry, I forgot it was the ER. Although my text says that Divalproex sodium (depakote, Depakote ER, Epival) should be given by mouth 750 mg in divided doses.

It may do you good to call your pharmacy and have a consultation with the pharmacist to get his opinion on your particular symptoms and dosage.

Pharmacist,not the psyche?

Ok, I have never done that.

Thanks J :)

The pharmacist is a GREAT resource for drug information. It was the pharmacist who taught my father how to recognize his symptoms, whether being manic or depressed, and how to alter his medication dosage and times of day in which it was to be taken.

While the psych docs are pretty good with meds, meds are the ONLY things the pharmacists do.

Cool thanks, I'll look into it today when I go into town,, that's only 14 miles away... LOL:)

Well they increased my Depakote 500 mg in the Am, and 1500 at night, Have to see how it will help for the weekend, if no results are in, a hospital visit might be in order, I am not very stable tonight.

Ken, I hope it works out for you. But remember that it will most likely take longer than just the weekend to see the true effects of the meds. I am sorry to hear you are having a hard time right now. Just remember it will pass.

It will or it won't, If I need to go inpatient I can always do it... Truthfully I am looking to get some adivan, I need to settle down... But self medication is not an answer.

I am glad you are looking at this realistically, as you know, most people who suffer with Bipolar in the manic phase are NOT realistic thinkers.

You most likely will get Ativan in-patient. I am surprised you don't have a script for it already so that you can use it when you are feeling as you are right now.

I know it's tough Ken, but you will get through this.

Another night of little( but at least some) sleep, getting a cold and feel yucky!! :(

Head is SWIMMING with thoughts, eyes are heavy too, but the sleep is a fleeting thing, OH WELL, that's life.

If I can just stay on board with this fit I might bypass the hospital visit, ( fingers crossed, just like my eyes... lol)

God knows I hope this online journal helps someone else, If anyone else goes through this, look for the help, there are good people out there,like J-9, with sound advice and a clear mind to ask questions to, don't do this alone.

Ken

Ken, I am hoping you got at least a little sleep last night.

Keep coming here hun, you know if I am not online at the moment I will eventually respond. Just be patient with me and my hectic schedule.

Does it help you to talk about what thoughts you mind is swimming with? Does it help release some of the penned up energy?

Yes, to talk about things is like an online journal.

But to release pent-up energy, I can't think of any constructive ways to do that.It is what it is, uncontrolled energy,I shake, rattle and roll,its just a passing phase,although I wish it was over before I make a fool of myself.

I did spend some time in the shop today,no intricate cuts,want to keep my fingers on.It wasn't bad to get artistic,and productive,but when a distraction shows its face I just want to go with it,focus isn't there,ended up playing poker with old friends for 6 hours,till I got cranky and had to leave,1/2 hour drive plus dusk and deer on the road are a bad mixture.

Anyway, Thanks to excon for the comment, I need those every once in a while.

Ken

Ken, I hope you got some rest last night. Glad you made it through the weekend. I am off to school today, but I will check in later this afternoon to see how you are doing.

Thank you J-9,

I am losing reality,, Giddy now,, but its all good, I have family here,visiting from out of town, they have offered to take me to the unit if necessary.

I'll let you all know what's up later.

Ken

Dr. Prescribed ATARAX today,I haven't found any real changes yet, but I think it needs to build up,Not sure,even the med nurse said the PDR wasn't clear,all I found out was the med is an antihistamine( like that's going to help,, sheesh, who do they think they are dealing with,JUNIOR... ) I am getting really pissed with the band-aid treatment from the mental health officials!

So anyway, they say... call back Wed. pm, or Thurs. am if this doesn't help... meanwhile I just wasted $50.00 on pills to clear my cold up? I could have taken Vicks for much less than that.

Sorry, just venting...

I am past giddy, now the anger is creeping in, my poor friends, much less family... I haven't been this volatile in a long time, I guess I am more aware of my actions today.

Thank you for letting me vent, I am going to think more about this episode and try to find an outlet other than anger.

Ken

Oh, Ken, you need to go to your local college and get a Nursing Drug Reference Book.

Atarak is not only a antihistamine, but is also an antianxiety/sedative-hypnotic, and antiemetic (means it's good for upset tummies).

Many of these meds cross over to help more than one condition and may be prescribed for several different things. So, you haven't wasted your money yet. This one takes about 2 days to begin to see a difference.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but school happens and life goes on. Tomorrow I may not be reachable at all as I have clinicals from 6:30 - 6:30 which means I will be gone from 5:15 - 7:30, but I will check in if I get a chance.

Thank you, I knew I could get a knowledgeable response from you about this medication.

Taking it 3 times a day, till next week Mon. when the doc. Is available.

And yes, I got a full 8 hours sleep last night, first of many, I hope!! :)


Ken

I am just checking in before I head off to clinicals to deliver babies today. Good to hear you got some sleep finally.

CHECK+++

Have a good day delivering the newborns...

Ken

I got some good support from Ken this morning and wanted to thank him again and also express my sympathy for his situation. Also, I agree that staying on medications can be a problem for anybody.


Staying compliant is very hard for the individual as well as the health care worker. This pertains to all medications, not just those that deal with mental health aspects.

I want to give my experience as an example of why this is true. I have chronic pain and I am on a fentanyl patch and a low dose of methadone to control the pain. I need to change the patch every two days and I can only take a shower right before I put on a patch. If I wash my hair at the wrong time, it washes the drug out of the patch and I go into withdrawal early. I resent having to be on these drugs and having people tell me I am an addict (and not being able to take a bath whenever I want).

When I am feeling good or I am busy, I sometimes forget to take the methadone or forget to change the patch until I am in withdrawal. Even when the withdrawal is mild, I'm labile and tend to get more upset about things than I normally do. I cry easily. I too have experienced the shame of having said something or written something to a list that I later regretted. I tend to obsess and perseverate when I am in this state. Physically, I get very hot and sweat or have chills and can't regulate my temperature. Eventually, my pain gets worse and I feel like I have the flu.

And all this because I had a broken back and have chronic lower back pain. The drugs help me to function-- take care of my family and work, to have a life. But I don't know sometimes whether my feelings are me or the (lack of) drug. I don't trust my instincts anymore. If I have a disagreement with my boyfriend, he tells me it's the drugs not me, and I'm not sure.

I try really hard to stay on my schedule, and mostly I do, but sometimes even when I've been completey punctual, I go into withdrawal anyway, for reasons I don't understand. I don't know if there's poor quality control on the patches or if something like lack of sleep can make me go into withdrawal early. But I'm constantly trying to adjust my dose while NOT increasing the methadone so that I become dependent on higher and higher doses. I feel trapped by this stuff. The other day, I was expecting 30 people for a potluck I was hosting and I was in withdrawal. I hastily took some methadone so I wouldn't go curl up in a cormer and sleep (or worse, cry) in the middle of the party. But then I feel like I have to pay for that later, because I have taken "extra." I'm so tired of trying to remember what I took when and what I need to take when.

I never take anything to get high. I am ruthless with myself and defensive about this. But I'm not sure people believe me. Several people have asked me what the high from fentanyl is like and I tell them I don't know because I have never felt high from it.

Anyway, I feel a lot of sympathy for Ken's challenges, which are so much worse than my own. I think I have an inkling of what it must be like because I too have to deal with cycling moods and drugs. I don't know much more about bipolar than what I've learned from reading this thread or about the drugs he's on. But I do know what it's like to be so dependent on powerful drugs that make you feel better and yet not want to take them.
Good luck,
Asking

Medication compliance is hard no matter what med you are on, whether it be pain, mental health, antibiotics, etc... It's just really hard and up to basically the nurse (me) to teach why it is so important.

So,I had a few days of rest, but its back to the no sleep, some sleep, no sleep thing.

Seems too quick, but that's bi-polar for you.

This medication is different than Seraquil, I don't wake up hungover,groggy,or moody.

I do wake up with a headache though,although that might be from the lack of rest.

Only six days till I see the med doc. Can't wait.

The seroquel is good, it just takes so darn long to work. At least you got a little rest, that is something.

I'm sure the headache is from lack of rest as I didn't see it as a side-effect of the Atarak.

I bet you can't wait to see the med doc. I can't wait to hear what he says.

He is a listening doctor,asks what I want for meds, not what HE wants to give me.

The last one was a domineering psyche, and we had little to no relations.

AND BTW, weren't you going to lay down for a while... LOL

Good, I'm glad you got a doc who listens. That is very important. Some docs just think that the world revolves around them.

Oh, yeah, I was going to go lay down. Toodles.

OK,I am feeling very homicidal tonight,have been for about,ummm, a few days now,since preacherman judged my response to the post,man did that upset me,now I have gotten many PM's and other posters showing their support.

It's becoming an obsession, this hatred, I am even bringing it up in my support groups, My buddy is rolling his eyes at my repeated stories, same theme, different day...

My daughter is driving me batty also, I wonder if it is all me and my perspective, or a few situational processes which combined are becoming a larger stress issue.

Maybe its just that I am becoming more critical of the world as a whole, I haven't been able to find the answers yet, my mind clouds with fury when I think about most of this for too long, my heart beats strong and hard for release, release of anger and violence.

Soon I believe, I will either act-out , someway, and either become depressed(feeling guilty for doing something I probably shouldn't do) or the other swing, go high road manic and get hospitalized( that hasn't been my way for over 20 years though)It feels as though it is coming to a head.

Tomorrow, I see the mad doc,, OH I mean Med doc,, and will bring this post in with me, just to see what he suggests,who knows , he might have a solution for this madness.

Ken, I am so sorry you are feeling like this, but you know that acting out would be wrong. What would it solve other than you getting into trouble?

I understand that it's hard going through a time like this, it really is, but you know as well as I do that acting out would serve no real purpose.

We all get critical from time to time, that's goes for all of us. Yes, you can blame it on the depression, but is that what it really is? Nah, I feel like that too once in a while.

Maybe you will go high road, I hope not. I hope you don't take either path, but stay on the straight and narrow.

I haven't read the thread that upset you so much. But there have been some for me too that upset me beyond belief. But I have to remember that these are just words on a screen and if the people actually KNEW me, they may not say what they say.

There is a certain degree of "comfort", if you will for lack of a better word, for people to post just anything they want to say, not taking feelings into account, at a place like this. And I have to remember that when people get me riled up. Sometimes it's just better to walk away for a short time.

Please keep me posted as to what the Med Doc says tomorrow. Lucky you have one that will listen.

Tomorrow is today... lol

Again my sleep was short lived and we're going to have a change of meds, I just feel it coming on.

3 hours and counting, not like it is going to be a cure all, just to be heard by a professional, in a face to face, there is a certain clarity and security in seeing someone treating you in person.

This isn't saying I don't appreciate you J.

Trust me, You are a great help for me in AMHD,I value your input and advice greatly.

I'll post what I get answers to today,Open mind,willing,accepting,honest,, My mantra before seeing the pros... :)

Had a few hours sleep and need more, just not yet.

Hope the test is awesome for you today(I think I saw that somewhere else on site)you'll do great.;)

Thank you for your support,

Ken

Oh, tomorrow is today, see how tired I am from studying, I didn't even look at the post time, silly me.

Ken, I know you are very appreciative, I hope you didn't take what I said wrong. I know you are.

I hope everything went well today, please keep me posted.

I did it again. I took a half a methadone tablet to the kitchen to take it with water this morning, had a bowl of cereal and never took the methadone. By noon I was in withdrawal and feeling overwhelmed. I felt like I would never be able to cope with all the things I have to do--write a book, take care of my kids, manage my finances, etc. I finally took "another" half pill, feeling angry with myself for my weakness in having to take more than my allotted dose. I then slept for two hours, got up and was able to function and pay bills, talk to my son when he got home from school. Later, I found the pill I hadn't taken.
Oh.
I proceeded to blame myself for that too. Not allowed to make mistakes. I have been coming back here to see how KBC is doing. Well, I hope.
Asking

Oh, tomorrow is today, see how tired I am from studying, I didn't even look at the post time, silly me.

Ken, I know you are very appreciative, I hope you didn't take what I said wrong. I know you are.

I hope everything went well today, please keep me posted.
Wrong? I don't think so, respecting friends opinions is a good sign of recovering,'constructive criticism' is commonplace, and necessary.Is all good over here:)

My therapist was out sick, but the replacement was a really awesome guy, we hit it off right off the bat, DR was typically quick and to the point, prescribed ABILIFY along with the rest of the meds I am on, No other changes yet.

They are loathe to give scrips for adavan being the nature of the controlled substance.(It works, in other words, and the system doesn't want that out... cynical me;))

Worked 12 hours yesterday, and slept 12 hours on the meds, feel groggy today, but have to press on,things to do, people to see, places to go...

I'll be back on soon enough, and I hope you did well on the latest test J_9, And thanks for your support,

Ken

Abilify huh? And you are wanting Ativan? Hmmm, Abilify is much stronger.

Glad to hear you finally got 12 hours of sleep, it's about time isn't it?

Well, I just popped in to get your update.

Test went very well hopefully. I was the first done in the class and that NEVER happens. The only thing that bothers me is that whenever I feel I do really well, I fail the test. When I feel that I failed it, I ace it. Scores are usually in by 4 pm that day, but we won't be getting our scores until later this morning.

Take care Ken, I won't be on today as I it is Tuesday and I will be in clinicals until 5:30

Glad everything went well for you.

I did it again. I took a half a methadone tablet to the kitchen to take it with water this morning, had a bowl of cereal and never took the methadone. By noon I was in withdrawal and feeling overwhelmed. I felt like I would never be able to cope with all the things I have to do--write a book, take care of my kids, manage my finances, etc. I finally took "another" half pill, feeling angry with myself for my weakness in having to take more than my allotted dose. I then slept for two hours, got up and was able to function and pay bills, talk to my son when he got home from school. Later, I found the pill I hadn't taken.
Oh.
I proceeded to blame myself for that too. Not allowed to make mistakes. I have been coming back here to see how KBC is doing. Well, I hope.
Asking
Hi, Asking!!

I'll kick you if you like,, :):):)

I haven't missed med times very often this round,once or twice,mostly the Depakote, being an extended release I was able to take it without overlapping(at least I believed it... hmmmm)
No bad side effects with them so far.

One or another med has made me forgetful, I need a definite time when I take these buggers, so I don't miss any, 6 am and 6 pm, if at all possible that's seems to be good times( one other med is at noon also)

I hope you don't have too many more days missed, it's only human to miss one or two, but again I can kick you if you'd like, share the love... ;)

Seriously, it's only a lesson learned and I hope you don't berate yourself that much.

Thanks for looking in,

Ken

Abilify huh? And you are wanting Ativan? Hmmm, Abilify is much stronger.

Glad to hear you finally got 12 hours of sleep, it's about time isn't it?

Well, I just popped in to get your update.

Test went very well hopefully. I was the first done in the class and that NEVER happens. The only thing that bothers me is that whenever I feel I do really well, I fail the test. When I feel that I failed it, I ace it. Scores are usually in by 4 pm that day, but we won't be getting our scores until later this morning.

Take care Ken, I won't be on today as I it is Tuesday and I will be in clinicals until 5:30

Glad everything went well for you.

Abilify huh? And you are wanting Ativan? Hmmm, Abilify is much stronger.

Glad to hear you finally got 12 hours of sleep, it's about time isn't it?

Well, I just popped in to get your update.

Test went very well hopefully. I was the first done in the class and that NEVER happens. The only thing that bothers me is that whenever I feel I do really well, I fail the test. When I feel that I failed it, I ace it. Scores are usually in by 4 pm that day, but we won't be getting our scores until later this morning.

Take care Ken, I won't be on today as I it is Tuesday and I will be in clinicals until 5:30

Glad everything went well for you.

Glad to hear you finally got 12 hours of sleep, it's about time isn't it?

I'll say! Sounds like a good thing to me, too. Glad Ken's appointments went well, too and I hope the Abilify works well.

K, Thanks for taking over the hard work of beating up on me. :) I need to put the cudgel down now and then to let my arm rest. I forget a fair amount, although I don't mean too. Just a day dreamer, I guess. I will get one of those pill dispensers from the pharmacy and see if that helps.

J-9, I hope your test went well, too.
A

Sleep comes and goes, either both medications are overwhelming or its just me, I am sure I need the rest at times, but who knows, it could be that SAD beginning.(Doc made reference to it, before I did even, knowing the increase in anti-d's isn't too far off,which will effect the sleep again anyway)

Going from 2 meds to 4 in less than 2 weeks, what's next I wonder?

TEST RESULTS? (Tapping foot,, tap,tap,tap... LOL :p)

Anyway, HAPPY TURKEY DAY EVERYONE

Ken

OK, have sleep down to a science.(whew)

Lessening off the Ambilify and hoping the anger/aggression isn't too bad(? don't know where this came from,like alcohol withdraws... :()

Had a stressful day yesterday and vented properly(and maturely,not common for me)I am happy with the results.

Family is finally starting to get read to leave,(out of the 13 total,3 no shows,4 already here full time,3 leave today, 3 Sunday afternoon)YES, the holidays are full of stress.

Hope everyone else had a nice,pleasant thanksgiving(those that celebrate it)

Ken

Hi, Ken, good to hear you are getting some sleep. Over the past few days I have gotten probably too much sleep. Just catching up from all the times I had to get up and out of the house before the rooster crowed.

So, were you just to take the Abilify for a certain amount of time? Is this just a short term med when you are in a manic phase?

Oh, the test. Yeah, I passed. Didn't get the grade I had hoped for, but I still passed. Next test is going to be very tough so our study group is going to start meeting twice a week.

I had a great Thanksgiving, thank you. Sounds like yours went well.

TTFN

Hi, Ken, good to hear you are getting some sleep. Over the past few days I have gotten probably too much sleep. Just catching up from all the times I had to get up and out of the house before the rooster crowed.

So, were you just to take the Abilify for a certain amount of time? Is this just a short term med when you are in a manic phase?

Oh, the test. Yeah, I passed. Didn't get the grade I had hoped for, but I still passed. Next test is going to be very tough so our study group is going to start meeting twice a week.

I had a great Thanksgiving, thank you. Sounds like yours went well.

TTFN
For a certain amount of time,, no,I am self medicating again,in a sense.

Yes during the manic phase I for sure needed the meds, now I am sleeping,almost like a normal person, and don't feel the need to take this or the Atarax,Yes it sounds like self medication,and probably is.Being on the holidays I am unable to contact therapist/doctor but I will when Monday comes.

Reason for not taking meds:I have shown signs of lethargy in the daytime as well as the morning, due to over medication, I am not a doctor, but the recipient of a treatment which I can feel is over the top for this phase,I am almost back to steady, I don't want to be too groggy nor too manic.(like any other time) just regulated.

Hope this is a rational explanation,(self doubt still creeps in and makes me wonder if I am setting myself up for SAD, or more chaos than I truly want.)

Twice a week study group,you must really want this profession, just to work with the likes of us loonies? ( but at a better pay rate,, ;) )

TTYL

Ken

Ken, I don't consider it self medicating when you have been on the meds as long as you have been and you know your body's chemistry. After all this time, you pretty much know what works for you and what doesn't.

You will know when the time comes to up the meds so that you will stay on an even keel.

You are sleeping again, you are off the peak of the manic phase and that is good. Just remember, and I know you will, when you start taking that uphill ride on that rollercoaster to start back on the same dosage you have been on. It worked so well for you this time.

Please call the doc tomorrow and let him know of your plans.

Study group did not happen today, too cold and rainy, everyone just wanted to stay home with their families. Oh, well, no big deal, I have been planted at the kitchen table since Wednesday with all my books and notes. So, I'll be okay... I hope!!

TTFN, take care

KBC, I agree with J-9 about it being reasonable to regulate your medications but to tell your doctors what you are doing. Nice that you are sleeping again and not too sleepy during the day. I know that feeling of wondering if the good feeling is just an intermediate nice stage that you are going to pay for later. I worry about that kind of thing all the time. But your reasons sound totally right to me. The idea is to function as well as you can. The medications are supposed to help you do that, not make things worse. (I have to remind myself of that a lot.) Some doctors are really rule oriented and don't react well to self regulating--they see it as non compliance. But a lot of health professionals do understand. I try to be honest with my doctors, though some of them make it hard...

My pharmacy switched generics on me last week and I have been having a really hard time with the new patch, which is 3 or 4 times as big as the old one and gives me a nasty rash. I'm small and am running out of places on my body that aren't inflamed or even bleeding to put a new patch. It has to be a place that doesn't bend when I move, or the patch wrinkles and doesn't stick. The bigger the patch, the worse the problem. The pharmacy won't let me trade the patches in because they don't carry the old brand anymore, so I'm going to try to find a pharmacy that does. Then I'll turn in my unopened boxes to the old pharmacy (Walgreens) and try to get the prescription back and take it to the new pharmacy. And that's if things work out. Every time I think I've got things streamlined, there's some new hitch. Last month, the date on the prescription was wrong and the HMO wouldn't pay for the drug. Both the pharmacy and the HMO said if I filled out the right paperwork, I'd be reimbursed the $200. But when I got the paper work and filled it out, the HMO turned me down. I get discouraged. This month they paid for it, but now I'm covered with icky sores.. But I think I'm pretty lucky. Yesterday, I went out on a whale watching trip with friends and family. We saw orcas and a humpback whale. :-) I doubt I could do that without pain control.

J-9, What kind of class are you taking? Glad to hear you passed the test!
Asking

J-9, What kind of class are you taking? Glad to hear you passed the test!
Asking

Asking, I am a second level RN nursing student. I graduate in May and plan on specializing in mental health.

Asking, I am a second level RN nursing student. I graduate in May and plan on specializing in mental health.

I'm happy to hear that. You sound like you will be a good one. :)
A

I'm happy to hear that. You sound like you will be a good one. :)
a

I sure hope I will. LOL... It's a long hard road, but well worth the effort.

OK back to the no sleep dogs I go,

Dam*, this is getting extreme,this time is definitely stress, daughter is going to get a bootrear soon( yes, a pun, Very punny today)

I just got off the sleep meds, and it creeps back the next day... HMM I wonder if its just me?. LOL No, I know its life on life's terms, I am not dealing with a belligerent daughter very well.

How are asking? J_9? Hope all is well.

Its another cold day here(just hit 30 at 8:00 AM) sweats and T-shirt weather:)

Just thought I would post and try for a medicated nap for a while.

TTYL,

Ken

Sorry you are not sleeping again. Do you do all the usual, go to bed at the same time every night, have a ritual? (I always read for a few minutes, something not too upsetting--NOT the news!) Often I take a short bath before I go to bed so I feel clean and warm. It helps. Warm milk or cocoa is not so bad either. Mainly it's getting my mind off stuff. I also take benadryl occasionally or when I'm really desperate, Ambien. But that stuff was so hard to get off last year, I'm afraid of it. Plus if I take it, I wake up nauseated.

Pain usually keeps me from sleeping, sometimes anxiety, or both. What keeps you up, Ken? Is it harder to fall asleep, or harder to stay asleep? Do you fall asleep easily, then wake up later?

I didn't get the pun. Bootrear? How old is your daughter?
I've been busy, with lots of people for thanksgiving, plus family staying over the weekend and more get togethers. I'm happy today because I am finally going to get some disability for my three years not working. The government kept turning down my claim, which felt like they were saying I was making up the pain, but a judge finally ruled in my favor. I feel vindicated. The money will be nice too...

It's suddenly colder here too, but only in the high 30s at night. It warms up during the day. Sleep well...

First the pun(from a Piers Anthony novel) Bootrear, (instead of rootbeer)=A drink that gives you a kick in your rear:)( I am a big sci fi reader,Anthony Donaldson, Gemmel... etc)

Oh yeah, My sleep patterns are on time,not any different than anyone else's anyway( I am a first shift type person, liking daylight more than night)Its not only pains(physical, muscle cramps and such,and emotional, stress from this and that,, daughter,family.)It is also the manic mind, more than and separate from the emotional.

Reading before bedtimes,, EVERY night( you ought to see the collection I have)lol

I would rather not take meds at night for sleep( my PM med time is 6 pm.) the sleeping meds prescribed this episode are 'just before bed'

Most nights I can fall off without any effort, due to reading(makes the eyes tired... etc) mostly it is staying asleep, mind getting 'shocked awake' from images, dreams,as well as muscle cramps(especially in the back of the legs)and once awakened, I am panicky, needing some kind of stimulus to distract the mind as to not be stuck in the SAD zone,I am fighting this winter so I DO NOT go down the depression road I have been down for 30+ winters.

My daughter is 21(emotionally challenged, somewhere around 13-15)I have my hands full with her, but it is not impossible, just tough.)

Anyway, I am sleeping OK on the meds and this note is my AM log in so to speak.I am off to work today, just about to call it quits on contracting , just a few more projects.

Have a good day E1, How did that Quiz go J_9 Its was a breeze wasn't it:)

Ken

I like sci fi, too. But I get it from my son, some Timothy Zahn, Neal Stephenson, etc. I could use some recommendations. I prefer ones where the women don't faint every time something happens though.

Sleep. Getting shocked awake is bad. That happened to me when I took an antidepressant for a few days. It was so scary, I wouldn't take it anymore. I'd rather be depressed than heart poundingly scared in the middle of the night. I won't tell you what I dreamed because it was creepy, but even after I woke up, the images and feelings were still with me--as if it was real, maybe still happening. Something like that?

I have you tried yoga for the muscle cramps in your legs, just simple stretches right before bed? Sometimes when I hurt, I get up and stretch right there on the floor at 3 am. Don't know if that would work for you. It helps me if I really do it, not just for a second but for 5 or 10 minutes, gently though because I'm not warmed up. I get cold out there and then I snuggle back under the covers grateful for the warmth and things are sometimes better.

A difficult daughter sounds really hard. I have a kid whose not that difficult and he still keeps me worrying and frustrated. Won't get a job.. Does she go to school or work? Have other adults in her life who can share the burden of helping her? I hope so.

This sounds morbid but when I get really anxious in the middle of the night, I think about what would happen if I were to die the next day and couldn't do any of the things people want me to do or need me to do. I feel sort of off the hook then. Then anything I get done seems like a plus, instead of never enough.

This week is a good week for me, although I was in withdrawal all afternoon. The pharmacy wouldn't let me exchange my patches. I came home and gave up, watched Red Dwarf with my kids and fell asleep.

My daughter is for sure working( she does like to be the overachiever)60 hours a week right now.

Anxiety during the night,and questionable self-esteem during the day,these make up who and what I am( to a degree)

I say this because of how my latest helper comments to my self-degrading comments( I mean them as jokes, he sees them as self insulting)He keeps saying, "Take it easy on yourself" I don't even see it as negative 'learned' behavior.Bu hindsight being 20/20 it just might be.

Anyway,back to the meds, My sleep has gone from the up at 3 AM to sleeping as soon as I can(after work) till I wake 2-3 hours later, then up till normal sleep time(around 9-10PM)And up at 5 AM, not regulated well, hopefully just for now.

Some memories have been affected by the meds, short term and now what seems mid term are hazy at best.Not sure if the side effects are from meds or sleep patterns,maybe a combination.

I see the therapist in 2 days for a session concerning this and a few other issues(daughter and how I deal with her stresses, which are mine too... HMMM co-dependency? YUP)

Looking forward to work today,finally finishing a multi-day contract with many add-ons,might just be able to do the bills for December after all.:)

Ok, long enough today, TTYL,

Ken

Anxiety during the night,and questionable self-esteem during the day,these make up who and what I am( to a degree) . . .
. . . I don't even see it as negative 'learned' behavior.

This is an interesting perspective. It's true sometimes people think I'm being hard on myself when I just feel like I'm just observing my own behavior. But being used to beating on oneself isn't necessarily the best thing. I do feel better when I ease up generally. I'm going to think about this.


My sleep has gone from the up at 3 AM to sleeping as soon as I can(after work) till I wake 2-3 hours later, then up till normal sleep time(around 9-10PM)And up at 5 AM, not regulated well, hopefully just for now.

This is exactly how I've been sleeping recently, except I force myself to get up sooner in the evening, afraid I won't sleep later. (Doesn't help!)


Some memories have been affected by the meds, short term and now what seems mid term are hazy at best.Not sure if the side effects are from meds or sleep patterns,maybe a combination.

Memory problems are incredibly inconvenient and hard to explain to others. You can say it, but people don't necessarily believe the things that one can forget about. I suffered from really bad memory problems for a year after my surgery, was never sure if it was the anesthetic or the pain drugs or both.

It feels good to bill others and pay one's bills... a sign of functioning.
I'm self employed; I doubt I could keep a regular job.
Asking

It feels good to bill others and pay one's bills... a sign of functioning.
I'm self employed; I doubt I could keep a regular job.

I HAVEN'T MASTERED THE QUOTE IN HERE YET, ANY ADVICE WELCOME

Yeah, I am self-employed( as much as one can be with contracting, Still work for someone, right?)

This reason alone has made me stop contracts and begin the 'In-house' cabinetry,with the onslaught of SAD and ups and downs of Bi-polar I can work as needed, quality can be at my convenience(again to an extent).

Memory problems while working from a paper list 'cut sheet' for a chair, or even a 'off the top', table design, is a world of difference from outside building.

Anyway, I am sleeping like normal for this time of year(All day if I could)I hate it.

I see the therapist this AM and will again bring up the constant changes, I feel so less than,(thats the depression) but non-the-less I do, can't seem to keep the demon off my back.Can't wait till these 2 contracts are done( one done today 'delayed from helper no show':mad: )

OK hope every one has a nice day

Ken

Yeah, I am self-employed( as much as one can be with contracting, Still work for someone, right?).

I try not to think of it that way. For one thing I don't have to work for anybody I don't want to if they are jerks. Obviously if you need the money, you swallow a certain amount of stuff. Still, contractors CAN say no, unlike if you have a real boss. And the more clients you have, the more freedom you have to turn people down.[/QUOTE]


This reason alone has made me stop contracts and begin the 'In-house' cabinetry,with the onslaught of SAD and ups and downs of Bi-polar I can work as needed, quality can be at my convenience(again to an extent).

Good for you. If it works and lets you get by, it's good. I do pretty much the same. I work on long-term projects, so I can have bad days and make up for it another time.

I'm feeling exhausted by the roller coastering with my boyfriend of 7 months. After no relationship for 6 years, it's so nice to have someone to hold me, hang out with--the good part. He's a good talker, and cheery most of the time. I can't bear the thought of giving that intimacy up. I can easily be convinced that things are good, and I am incapable of staying mad long enough to break up. But there always seems to be a new little kick in the gut. Today one thing, next week another. I swing from feeling resilient and capable to feeling like a complete wimp (today).

Asking

I'm feeling exhausted by the roller coastering with my boyfriend of 7 months. After no relationship for 6 years, it's so nice to have someone to hold me, hang out with--the good part. He's a good talker, and cheery most of the time. I can't bear the thought of giving that intimacy up. I can easily be convinced that things are good, and I am incapable of staying mad long enough to break up. But there always seems to be a new little kick in the gut. Today one thing, next week another. I swing from feeling resilient and capable to feeling like a complete wimp (today).

Asking

What are the roller coaster feelings?That has got me confused, Are you bi-polar?(or just female?. LMAO,, just kidding... LMAO)

I know the little kicks,when rationalized, don't look so bad, 'till one day you realize your co-dependent and living for the other persons happiness instead of getting your needs met( like returned feelings ) DON'T BE A WIMP!!

Your worth happiness and contentment,express yourself, I remember I commented a while ago to another about them needing to be the goddess they are!( sheesh, and me being a woman hater... LMAO)Find that happiness with or without him, what's another few months/years when happiness is compromised? Are you truly happy if things are like this anyway?

I am off on a rant now, I would do anything to keep happiness/serenity,sometimes it is just fleeting, other times I can control the chaos, not it me.

I don't know, where do we find contentment? In companionship? A bottle? Medications? A favorite pet? TV shows? Writing? Reading? You know, the list is forever.

CAN I BE HAPPY IN MY SHOES?

ANSWER: No, not always, especially without medication.

DOES THIS MAKE ME LESSER THAN OTHERS:

Sometimes I believe it does( wimp mode)

Maybe I am just tired and ranting(probably) but I am struggling with life and relationships too, having been alone for 3 years and without close companionship for that long, on top of that the holidays coming up, another year alone through Christmas isn't too fun looking(Daughter and family notwithstanding)Do I reach out? NO. I sure don't keep to myself, just don't reach for the closeness which brings chaos and those 'kicks in the gut'

Enough for tonight, thanks for posting,it les me know there are a few who read my posts too.

Ken

I don't know, where do we find contentment? In companionship? A bottle? Medications? A favorite pet? TV shows? Writing? Reading? you know, the list is forever.

I liked that post.

By the way, if you select something you want to quote and then click the icon that shows text in a cartoon balloon, it shows as a quote. Same way you made red and blue text.

I don't know where contentment lies, in our hearts, I guess. Usual answer. And in all the places you listed and more--in the first sunlight falling on frosty ground at sunrise. But contentment is mostly ephemeral. Being in withdrawal from fentanyl is no recipe for contentment, I've noticed.

I know some people can choose to be contented, regardless of their circumstances. Lots of new age advice basically says to ignore your externals and do that. The Secret, Byron Katie. I find it a bit weird. What about reality? Still, there's some truth in it if you don't take it too far. My older sister is losing it and says weird things and hates me, though she used to dote on me. So I can brood about that or just say, so be it and watch the sun rise.

Someone spills tomato sauce on my carpet, doesn't apologize, and jokes while I clean it up. I can choose to take offense, or I can choose contentment. What's the "right" answer?
Asking

I am off on a rant now, I would do anything to keep happiness/serenity,sometimes it is just fleeting, other times I can control the chaos, not it me.

. . . CAN I BE HAPPY IN MY SHOES?

ANSWER: No, not always, especially without medication.

DOES THIS MAKE ME LESSER THAN OTHERS:

Sometimes I believe it does( wimp mode)



I feel a lot of shame that I can't do as much as other people, can't work as hard, need to rest all the time, feel constant pain, and can only function with medication. I feel shame that I have moods I can't control when I run out of the drug. That I get panicky when I can't renew my prescription and the folks at the pharmacy give me this knowing look and talk to me like I'm a street person trying to scam my fix. The medication is just one of my shames. But it's a potent one.

Maybe it would be easier to resist that tendency to feel shame if we could pin down where the message comes from that mental health and moods are shameful, that not being able to function without drugs is shameful. I know it's not entirely something I invented by myself, even though my friends are quick to tell me there's no reason to feel ashamed. The message comes from out there, too. I'd like to be able to identify it when it's coming in, maybe shunt it aside.

Some of the message comes from the war on illegal drugs. Just say no, etc. And, also, I remember when Reagan closed most of the mental health facilities in California. It seemed to send a message that people didn't need or deserve help, that they just needed to pull themselves together.

Okay, I need to start my day. I feel as though you brought this thread back around to the topic you started and that's good, KBC.

I liked that post.

Just trying to get the quote thing down

Got it Thank you

I feel a lot of shame that I can't do as much as other people, can't work as hard, need to rest all the time, feel constant pain, and can only function with medication. I feel shame that I have moods I can't control when I run out of the drug. That I get panicky when I can't renew my prescription and the folks at the pharmacy give me this knowing look and talk to me like I'm a street person trying to scam my fix. The medication is just one of my shames. But it's a potent one.


Exactly where trying to stay on meds is such a challenge,sometimes I feel justified and correct in my need for the meds, other times I am so ashamed, I would rather hide from everyone and self loath.

Shame is the factor I see that kills my spirit(on a depressive mode) and is non existent(on a manic mode)I have been through many years of therapy,trying to learn as much as possible about bi-polar disorder and human psychotherapy(Being a Gemini, I am an INFOMANIC)never enough information for the likes of me.

Shame I learned from a close friend(counciler/therapist) in a treatment facility for addictions.
Kevin taught me about Toxic shame and typical shame,I probably can't quote his words or what I truly learned, but I did understand the very base of my shames.(and how to combat them correctly)

Is this something I can spell out in here, not right now anyway, I am medicated to the hilt today and I am losing cohesion to my thinking. I'll write more about this soon,

Ken

Exactly where trying to stay on meds is such a challenge,sometimes I feel justified and c I am medicated to the hilt today and I am losing cohesion to my thinking. I'll write more about this soon

I look forward to seeing what you have to say. I know the feeling about cohesion. I hope you equilibrate soon. I have some more things to say, too, but am neglecting my work and need to focus some time there. More shame! :rolleyes:
A

First thought on Toxic shame from Bradshaw( a writer I believe in thoroughly)

"Because of its perverbal origins, shame is difficult to define. It is a healthy human power which can become a true sickness of the soul. There are two forms shame: nourishing shame and toxic/life- destroying shame. As toxic shame, it is an excruciatingly internal experience of unexpected exposure. It is a deep cut felt primarily from the inside. It divides us from ourselves and from others. In toxic shame, we disown ourselves. And this disowning demands a cover-up. Toxic shame parades in many garbs and get-ups. It loves darkness and secretiveness. It is the dark secret aspect of shame which has evaded our study. Because toxic shame stays in hiding and covers itself up, we have to track it down by learning to recognize its many faces and its many distracting behavioral cover-ups." -- John Bradshaw

"Healthy shame is an emotion which signals us about our limits. Like all emotions, healthy shame is an energy-in- motion. Like all emotions it moves us to get our basic needs met. One of our basic needs is structure. We ensure our structure by developing a boundary system within which we safely operate. Structure gives our lives form. Boundaries and form offer us safety and allow a more efficient use of energy. Healthy shame keeps us grounded. Healthy shame is the basic metaphysical boundary for human beings. Healthy shame gives us permission to be human."

Toxic shame needs to be sharply distinguished from guilt (guilt can be healthy or toxic). Healthy guilt is the emotional core of our conscience. It is emotion which results from behaving in a manner contrary to our beliefs and values. Guilt presupposes internalized rules and develops later than shame. According to Erikson, the third stage of psychosocial development is the polar balance between initiative and guilt. This stage begins after age three. Guilt is developmentally more mature than shame. Guilt does not reflect directly upon one's identity or diminish one's sense of personal worth. It flows from an integrated set of values.

Those quotes probably require more explanation and discussion, and I look forward to both soon,

Ken

Just now I was listening to the morning news and they were talking about bailing out the many people who have defaulted on mortgages, as a way to save the financial institutions that took on high-risk loans. The newscaster compared the government intervention to "welfare" and "giving them methadone," as if methadone were a drug only given to bail out people of low moral character. It was clearly meant to denigrate anyone on methadone. Since I am on methadone to control pain caused by a broken back/spinal fusion, I felt attacked. Another kick in the gut. I feel angry even though it was not directed at me personally--obviously. But that kind of thing is WHERE the shame comes from. I want to start explicitly identifying where it comes from at least. It is not all internal. Whether it's toxic or not, I don't know... I still don't entirely understand the difference.

I am interested in the distinctions Bradshaw (and you) outline. Between guilt and shame, toxic and healthy in each case. Yesterday I read around a little bit about toxic vs healthy shame and I think I am beginning to understand it. Examples help. I can see an example of toxic shame in my boyfriend who was often shamed by his father when he was young. So, as I understand it, when he feels toxic shame, he fails to act to correct what he has done wrong because he cannot bear to acknowledge it. Right?

Needless to say, I cannot think of any examples of toxic shame in myself because I am unaware of it! However, I found myself doing something recently for no reason I can explain. (A good friend confronted me, and I was very upset by what she hinted to me about myself. This is someone who has never before criticized me in any way and she was completely kind and gentle. But still I was rattled because when she asked me why I did X, I couldn't really say.) I didn't hurt anyone except myself. The question was why I would help someone who had treated me badly...

To take this further along this line of discussion, I am going to post a new topic in addictions,because this directly deals with it.(hopefully sticky also) for Toxic shame/guilt.

Rick just posted a new guideline to correctly keeping posts directed towards their questions, and we are going further from meds now.

I'll see if I can add the new post here.

Ken

To take this further along this line of discussion, I am going to post a new topic in addictions,because this directly deals with it.(hopefully sticky also) for Toxic shame/guilt.

Rick just posted a new guideline to correctly keeping posts directed towards their questions, and we are going further from meds now.

I'll see if I can add the new post here.

Ken

I didn't realize I was off topic. One of my main points is that I don't have an addiction problem with opioids--at least that is what my doctors tell me. If I did, I don't think I would need to set up my computer to remind me to take the medication... I am talking about things that make me NOT want to take my medication (the thread topic) and one of those causes is the external perception that anyone using pain medications is abusing them. Ironic that you should decide that my true topic is addiction.
Asking

I didn't realize I was off topic. One of my main points is that I don't have an addiction problem with opioids--at least that is what my doctors tell me. If I did, I don't think I would need to set up my computer to remind me to take the medication... I am talking about things that make me NOT want to take my medication (the thread topic) and one of those causes is the external perception that anyone using pain medications is abusing them. Ironic that you should decide that my true topic is addiction.
Asking
I didn't move that idea over to addictions because of you, I did it because that is where it belongs, we can absolutely keep this going in here,I never would tell/judge someone's use of medications as addictive behavior!(ME a recovering addict,would HATE someone if they judged me like that!! )

My sincerest apologies if that is how it came across( at the time I posted that, I had just read the update from admin about posts,perceiving our subject matter might be getting off track and trying to stay with the overall concept of AMHD )My bad.

Lets start back, If you'd like,

Ken

Sorry I haven't been around lately. School schedule has been extremely hectic. Will be over on Wednesday for a month. I will start working soon. I finally get to start using the procedures I have been taught. I'm very excited.

Well, back to studying for finals.

TTFN

Just out of curiosity, do you ever use music to medicate? I find listening to certain types of music works as well as medication under certain circumstances.

For instance, I am a hopeless romantic (shhh, don't tell anyone, I don't want my tough persona to be given away), but whenever I feel stressed or like the world is coming down... I play some positive romantic music. Well, not really romantic, but... Like, right now I am hooked on the song Her Eyes by Pat Monahan, it just tends to relax me.

Just out of curiosity, do you ever use music to medicate? I find listening to certain types of music works as well as medication under certain circumstances.

For instance, I am a hopeless romantic (shhh, don't tell anyone, I don't want my tough persona to be given away), but whenever I feel stressed or like the world is coming down....I play some positive romantic music. Well, not really romantic, but... Like, right now I am hooked on the song Her Eyes by Pat Monahan, it just tends to relax me.
Now that's good therapy music,

... Gemini/Capricorn... interestingly enough I am a Gemini :D

I am an oldtime rocker and of all things '80's new waver.:o , My music choices have been with tremendous memories involved(good and bad) but more to the questionable/bad.(dark side) hurt is easier a memory for me to remember than fun or happiness(wonder why?):confused:

Hope studies are going good.

Ken

Interesting you are gemini... No, I'm not, but for some reason it does not surprise me that you are... Let me ask you a weird question if you will... Are you eyes green? I'll tell you why I'm curious after you answer the question.

Now, I have found music to be very therapeutic... All kinds of music really, for different situations. Yes, there is what I call "mad music," you know that headbabing cr*p, but in certain circumstances I have seen it work wonders with patients.

I have studied the therapuetic effects of music and find that it can even aid the meds.

NOT green, Not blue, not hazel,not black,not gray, that leaves?. Brown?? (with a black ring around them)

Music soothing the savage beast huh?

Soft 80's and weird punk rock sometimes do the trick too.

Dang, you see I am doing some research on green eyes and physical and mental health.

You have never heard of music therapy? I'm sure you have. 80s, punk, etc... I have found every kind of music works for every person, depending upon the particular situation... Just more mental health research I am into.

**Edit**

It's not that it soothes, but actually helps relieve frustrations... kind of hard to explain, but I guess soothe will work. Releases aggravations, etc.

I seem to have lost asking on here,I didn't mean to offend,just a little information towards shame.Now I feel bad.

Anyway, I am Toxic(not shame this time either) been swelled up for 3 days now, went to ER and got the boot:(( typical, no insurance, no care!)So my local PDOC is out of the country till January, Also typical,and his replacement suggested the ER, did it, Now what?(can't even close my fists anymore) I stopped my AM dose of Depakote(its the one that swells me up)and I am still swelling steadily, have to see what the AM will bring,looks like a trip inpatient again.

More later today(maybe,depends on the PDOC and the hospital)

Ken

It has been 4 days and the swelling has diminished,it seems to come and go,slightly.

Medical doctor says it could be the tomatoes in my diet,plus salt(OK too much salt) so I cut it off,the salt that is.

Been back on the Abilify,Atarax,and Depakote,and swelling up for the winter,I should get a job as Santa this year,got the shape down for sure.

I am increasingly dissatisfied with the depakotes' side effects.the swelling is going on and on,medical doctors say it is just what is going to happen(I am beginning to look like a beached whale)(ORCA anyone)

Sleepy most of the time(seasonal depression) and not interested in a lot of 'normal' activities,life being one of these.I am not suicidal,just listless.

I am beginning to struggle with the meds idea again,so it is going to be question the professionals again about what to do(I am clear enough on that right now, if only I can keep a good enough attitude for their advice,then follow it.)

Ken, sorry I haven't been here for you lately, been busy getting Christmas ready, and about to take the kiddos to school. But will be back shortly.

Hello all, Merry Christmas from Illinois,

Medications are not at their all time high today,I slept for almost 5 hours last night and feel a little groggy this AM.

I have been sleeping almost 16-18 hours a day for the past few weeks,hence, the lack of posts(and responses)

My best guess,sleep too much,feel guilty for doing it, sleep 'normal' feel a little groggy,but alive anyway.

I have gained a few pounds this winter on these meds and I want to take it off soon,more activity(as Bluerose stated in another post) and less sugar in my diet(as my brother stated in his last e-mail)might just do the trick!

Anyway,just a quicky while I feel the good mood.

Ken

Hi Ken,
Glad you had a cheerful moment. Those meds, I think that going off them is part of the disease. Can you work them into your routine so that they are not easily forgotten, tape them to the toilet flush handle, or put them in a hard container in your pillow?

My husband bought me some soap. It was on the kitchen table. I didn't know it was even there, but I was in the kitchen grinning from ear to ear. Sage soap. Well, maybe it's just me and the sage.

Sugar is both depressing and addictive. It can be harder to stay away from it this time of year.

I went away for a while because I didn't understand what KBC was saying about addiction. I still don't, to be honest. I was just hurt and felt humiliated--bad time of year--like I had talked too much and needed to be silenced. Also, importantly, I have been trying to meet a writing deadline (still haven't finished my project.. ), plus all the extra demands that happen this time of year. I would like to get back to talking here though, as I think this stuff is important. I'm sorry for being silent.

I stumbled on a copy of Bradshaw's book about toxic shame and read some of that a couple of weeks ago. My boyfriend had it on his shelf. I still think it's apropos to this thread. It looks like our discussion is back here after all? I never did know where it went for a while. I don't understand how threads can be moved or what a sticky is. There's still a lot about Ask Me I don't get.

So anyway, about a month ago, I got a pill box for myself-- one that says Sun, Mon, Tues, on each of 7 little compartments--and it has helped me remember to take my pills a LOT!

My boyfriend who is on antidepressants also forgets whether he took his (and is really weird when he forgets.) I gave him a pillbox even though he didn't like the idea, thought it would make him feel old and decrepit.

A friend called me to wish me happy holidays yesterday and after we talked awhile, she asked if I was still on meds, and I know she disapproves of my using pain medication.

I'm glad KBC had a cheerful moment on 12/25. I can't remember if you have tried light therapy? It helps me a little if I make a point of getting out in the sunlight first thing in the morning and getting a certain number of hours of bright light each day. I haven't tried an artificial light, but I figure it can't be as good as Old Sol. But both can't be bad, yes? I hope everyone here is having happy moments and making beautiful moments.

Happy New Year!
Asking

Now I am dancing on glass with bare feet!

I will again say, I didn't mean to sound judgmental(that was a perception)My words were for the further discussion of shame and toxic shame to be,also, included in the addictions area.

My opinion is based on my life(addict,hence addictive thoughts,alcoholic,hence alcoholic behaviors and sensitivity to them both)I am a selfish person by nature,making all topics about ME(the most important person in the room... lol)If I saw addictive behavior, I mirrored the image unto myself and began to go off topic with the ideas of shame and toxic shame.

Truly, I didn't mean any harm, and again I apologize for any misunderstanding between us.

KEN

KBC,
Oh! Now I get it! This is actually the first time I understood what you meant. Thanks very much for explaining again. (I think I understand. Because to me toxic shame and regular shame can apply to anything, not just addictions. They can apply to procrastination or lying or infidelity. Yes? My only addiction until now has been coffee. I am now on Fentanyl and methadone for pain control (broken back, sciatica, more), and the pain doctor and others say I am NOT an Addict, just chemically dependent, but of course society says I'm addict and I'm filled with middle class shame about that. I don't know which kind it is yet.) Anyway, put your socks on and sweep up the glass. :) I obviously have my own issues... I am probably selfish too.

It is a beautiful first day of the new year. I woke up too early -- 4 am, probably mild depresssion. So I got up then and wrote and read some, fed my cats, took a walk at 7 am, then went back to sleep from 10 am to 1.

I had this plan to go to a lower dose of medication to see if I can handle my pain without so much drug--which causes me to go into mild withdrawal every other day. I was supposed to do it next week (my plan), but it depends on finishing a chapter and I have sabotaged myself by procrastinating on the chapter. So basically, I can't do it until I do the writing job. Nobody says I have to do this, and my doctor told me last year I shouldn't rock the boat if I'm functioning and able to work. But I think MAYBE I'd work better on a loser dose of fentanyl, have fewer ups and downs every two days. No way to know without trying it though and it means taking some time off from my obligations. It's hard to plan, but I know that is just excuses.

Happy New Year!
Time for resolutions--exercise more to reduce my chronic pain, stop procrastinating, manage my kids better, get on a lower dose, and maybe earn more money. Those are mine, in that order. Do others here have any?

OK, my ISOLATION is in full bloom,, go figure... lol

I am totally complaint to my meds though, still this has been the best winter I have had for 20+ years now,same meds,same everything, just no winter time deep depression yet,maybe it'll just not show up this year,here's hoping!

I hope to be back in AMHD more regularly in the near future.

KBC

Ken, I can mildly relate.

I have quit smoking... so the nicotine withdrawal has become awful. Not just on me, but my family.

I go back on my meds next Friday. This semester is already becoming too hard. I need something to help me get over the hump. I go through this every few years, and with my father's background, I can see when I need a little extra boost.

Well, back on the Celexa and the Klonopin next week. I hope I can wake in the mornings for school.

Ken, I can mildly relate.

I have quit smoking....so the nicotine withdrawal has become awful. Not just on me, but my family.

I go back on my meds next Friday. This semester is already becoming too hard. I need something to help me get over the hump. I go through this every few years, and with my father's background, I can see when I need a little extra boost.

Well, back on the Celexa and the Klonopin next week. I hope I can wake in the mornings for school.

Hey, hope the meds help you,I know you understand them and use them for the right purposes.(but the stop smoking thing... ugggggh, really tough, I am routing for you!)

What is the April deadline?

Ken

April deadline? Oh, that, in my siggy. I am deep in school this semester, deeper than any other. I have less time now to spend with my family, thus even less time to spend here at the desk. Last day of school is April 28.

The quitting smoking has been a little tough, but with the help of the Chantix it's much easier than cold turkey. I hope the meds work too. This is a combo I have always been able to rely on with my situational anxiety, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they work again.

How have things been going for you? Days still aren't long enough I'm sure.

April deadline? Oh, that, in my siggy. I am deep in school this semester, deeper than any other. I have less time now to spend with my family, thus even less time to spend here at the desk. Last day of school is April 28.

The quitting smoking has been a little tough, but with the help of the Chantix it's much easier than cold turkey. I hope the meds work too. This is a combo I have always been able to rely on with my situational anxiety, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they work again.

How have things been going for you? Days still aren't long enough I'm sure.
Nope days are still a little short and snowy lately(and that -22 degrees stuff),but I am really doing well for this time of year(surprisingly enough)Meetings and friends in need keep me going daily,now if only the winter were over and (warm) fresh air was coming through the barn... hmmm wishfull thinking I guess.

TTYL,

Ken

Well since my last post I have had a loss of consciousness due to? (not sure)

My Depakote level has been increased another 500 mg. (now at 2500 mg daily) and I am swelling up like a balloon, I love food and feel ravenous while on this medication, slowly but surely I am trying to ween myself from eating for comfort.

I have had increased 'diabetic' feelings(the need for sugar, food necessity to stave off dizzy headedness, etc.)

My last episode was a few weeks ago so I am thinking this was an isolated time, not a repeat of many years ago(thank God)

The med Dr. questioned the loss of consciousness as a seizure as I am on anti seizure medications for mood stabilization! (but who knows) All meds don't work all the time for their purposes right?

Hope all are well, busy and content in life, and hope to hear from my friends soon,

KBC

Ken,

I am so sorry to hear you are going through all this trouble lately. I am left wondering if you are not experiencing side effects from the combination of meds rather than one med alone or the lack thereof. But I am sure your med Doc as considered that.

Combinations? Possibly but who knows.

The daily headaches are troublesome and until I have my Depakote level tested(this week) I'll not be able to discuss the over medication issue with much authority.

Thanks for the heads up on the idea of too much J

Ken

Sounds like you need a trip to the doctor no matter how far you have to go. I agree with the one post that says this sounds like a mixed episode. Bipolar disorder is nothing to take lightly. I'd get to the doctor the sooner the better.

Sounds like you need a trip to the doctor no matter how far you have to go. I agree with the one post that says this sounds like a mixed episode. Bipolar disorder is nothing to take lightly. I'd get to the doctor the sooner the better.
Thank you HelenAg for your response.

I can see the med Dr.about once every 2-3 months(sounds barbaric but it is the way of the system out here in the sticks.:( ) and the regular Dr. has me seeing a Dr. of Neurology tomorrow for the seizure episode.

KBC

OK, I am still on the meds as prescribed,not the ATARAX though, that was an 'as needed' med,although a few manic highs are to be expected, a new seizure is worse than a lack of sleep!

The EEG results are coming back soon and an MRI test tomorrow will be the next step in the process.

Thank You J for the info on the ATARAX, that will be coming up in the next chat with neurologist and med dr.

KBC

Hi Ken,
I have been off here for a long time. I had to force myself to get some writing work done and I was finding myself spending too much time here. But I finished the chapter I was writing, so am allowing myself to visit. Very sorry to hear that you are having troubles. I hope the neurologist was able to help some. What did the MRI and EEG indicate? I don't know anything about your meds, but you have my sympathy and I agree with all who say to find out what caused you to lose consciousness. I know how easy it is to let things go when they just happen once or it's hard to get a doctor's attention. Often they tell you it's NOT something but they don't tell you what it IS. And you are left wondering.

Take care,
Asking

Hi I am new so I hope I am doing it right. About saying on your medications, I am on a lot of medications right now, but I am thinking about going off some of them. I have found out that a lot of times my body will let me know if it is helping or if get is hurting me more. One thing I do know that in the U.S.A went you go to doctor's office that you are going to walk out with a prescribed medication slip. I am also a person on pain medications, and I hate it, but without it I can not do a thing for myself or family. Right how I have my nurse wanting me to go to all kinds of doctors. I do not want to do this but if I do not she will take me off the pain medications. I have been going to her for about 9 month or more, but she has told me not to come back until I have done what she told me to do. She has done this 3 times ( Not we doing about not follow what she tell me to do.) One of them was about money I own he she knows I am having A hard time paying but keeps having me do blood work done and boy I can not afford it, but know if I do know do it I will be told again not to come in. I am so mad about being on the medications in the first place Like one of you her office is 30 mile away from me. Sorry I have to go right how I am hurting so I hope I made sent. Debbie

Hi Debbie, I too am on pain medications and formerly was on a lot more drugs. I have been able to get off several of them, with difficulty. But I am still on two Fentanyl and methadone. They help a lot but also are problematic since it doesn't take much to go into withdrawal and not be able to think clearly. This week, for example, I broke up with my boyfriend and forgot to replace a fentanyl patch, leading to major withdrawal and inability to function.

I don't understand why you are seeing a nurse for your medical care instead of a doctor. Is this a free service? Ask her to help you figure out the financial end of things. Do you have someone to help you with any of this? To help make plans and carry them out? It can be very hard when you are either coping with intense pain, or slightly fuzzy from the pain meds. I know! Good luck.
Asking

No further loss of consciousness since stopping atarax and increasing depakote,but I am left wondering about the lack of motivation I am going through.

Normally by this time of year I am through the depression and on to the springtime 'manic' or just normal energy.

This year is a little different than most.(in more ways than one)

I didn't hit the low this winter which I normally would, but I am also not getting out of this rut yet either,my guess is that there might be a necessity for more changes in medications.

Well Dr. KEN is on break and the med doc is the right way to go, here goes.

KBC

Hi Ken,
I hope the med doctor can help.I'm very sorry your depression is dragging into the spring...

My sister's been depressed this year too and I'm definitely unmotivated regarding my work life. I've been down a lot. I haven't been working much since March. Lots of exhaustion, whether from my medication or something I don't know.

I told my doctor I wanted to try getting to a lower dose of my pain medication and she persuaded me to try going off entirely to see what my baseline pain/tiredness was. So I spent the weekend in withdrawal. I wanted to see how deep I could go in how few days. But I gave in Sunday at 2:30 am, after going cold turkey, and went to a half dose of fentanyl--from 50 mcg to 25 mcg. I'm still in withdrawal. Pain is tolerable but not very nice. Still, I'm proud of myself for being at a half dose of fentanyl compared to a week ago. Maybe in a week or two, if I stabilize, I'll go the rest of the way. Then I'll know what my normal level of pain really is and go from there.

Is lack of "ups"/mania ever age-related?
asking

Is lack of "ups"/mania ever age-related?

I have heard that this manic/depression is not something that gets better with time, but worse in severity (unless medicated properly)

Time will tell if there is any changes.

This winter was more even as far as depression, but I still isolated a bit, now I am coming out of my shell again and seem to be wondering about a little lost sometimes,work is not very appetizing.

Thanks so much for responding to my post, asking, I really do understand the withdraws and necessity to keep on meds,even if we think we don't want to,working with the med docs to move beyond an area we think we might be able to tolerate the pains, hmmm, sometimes we need to stay medicated,pain is pain, sometimes we have no choice,I know I have no choice about needing to stay medicated,use good judgment on the decision and remember I am routing for you! :)

Ken

Thanks, Ken! Very nice to hear from you. I don't know whether I'm "supposed" to be on these meds or not. The pain doctor encouraged me to stay on; my regular doctor talks about "all those drugs" I'm on disparagingly, although I'm really only on one drug, plus a tiny amount of one another. Friends the same, some supportive, some judgmental. I don't know what's right, but it clearly affects me a lot in some bad ways. I'm always tired and often sick, but I don't know if that's related to the medication or something else, so I'm trying to get off to find out. I'm definitely not in much more pain on half as much fentanyl, so there's no reason to be on the higher dose.

I had one good morning yesterday, but otherwise I've been in weak withdrawal pretty constantly for a week--like I have a hot coal in my chest all the time and can't keep a thought in my head from one minute to the next. Wish I could have a day off. Thanks again. Glad things were steadier for you this winter, even if not great. I hope you get some ups soon. Have you taken a hike, seen anything beautiful? That helps me, exercise and wilderness. I found a pretty frog in my backyard a week ago.

Well... I am starting to question the meds again:(

I sleep more than I am awake now(for the past 4 months)

My weight has increased from the lack of activity and the med doc. Wants me to stay on the meds like they are?

I am losing trust?belief?in the doctor.

This is a red flag in my Manic/depression I know,common sense and being correctly medicated are important and I am looking for an outlet(thinking about using street drugs again.)

I have even thought about getting off the prescribed meds so mania will return and there won't be any conflict with the other drugs.

I know,I know, this is just another case of crying out for help, but I am just looking for an outlet for this crazy frustration( I miss the feelings of being high mania brings)

KBC

Hi Ken,
I feel frustrated for you. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be struggling with these conflicts and urges. Sometimes life deals us limited options, not the one we want. But think about what's best for you in the long run, not what is going to bring temporary relief. It might be worth the trouble to find another doctor you trust more to give you a second opinion you can live with. You could spend some time looking for someone known to be really good in this area.. . I would talk to someone else before making any changes.

I don't blame you for not wanting to feel sleepy all the time. And while I can imagine mania must feel good, it'll be followed by depression that I assume is really painful and bad. Yes? Surely it's not worth it.

What kind of street drugs are you thinking of? What happens when you take them?

Take care. I'm thinking of you.
Asking

Street drugs?

Cocaine, it keeps me up for a while,expensive but I have been through bouts of on and off it over the years,I can take it or leave it as needed,maybe that's a part of the manic/depression... chaos theory,up or down,no in between.

I do realize this is a little pathetic,, why complain about it, just go do it.But maybe I'll not need to use if I write.

Thanks for your responses asking, they do help:)

Ken

I wish I could really help! But I don't think it's pathetic at all to talk about this. That's what this thread is for. It's good to talk about how you are feeling--what you are going through is very hard. I can see that. And I don't judge you at all for feeling like trying something different. I have been to lots of lows myself, and sometimes just saying something out loud puts it outside of you where you can see whether it's a reasonable idea or not.

I've used cocaine, though not since I was a lot younger. I can see the appeal for a given day. (I admit I loved it at the time, though I never used much, in part because I couldnt' afford it.) But it seems like it would increase the number of problems you have to deal with over periods of months versus of days. It's expensive, illegal, which means you have to worry about this and that. Is there a down period after you use it? And does a person habituate to the dose and have to take more gradually? For me those would all be considerations. Plus, I think I remember your daughter lives with you? Even if she's an adult, I would think about how it would look to her, how it might affect her image of you and of herself.

If you actually think cocaine is going to be better than what the doctors are giving you and CAN give you, I wouldn't necessarily say you shouldn't. It's a matter of balancing the pros and cons. But there are definitely some cons...

What did you think about getting another opinion from another doctor? Someone with stellar credentials. Is that something you could do?

Hoping you feel better soon.

Wow Ken, Ive been there. Sometimes it gets weird being weird all the time. There are social conventions that I worry about, but can't keep up with them all.

I mentioned this before, and you said that trying a different drug without a doctor's prescription was not your first choice. I talked to you about Salvia Divinorum which is legal. It has made my life incredibly better.

OK

I have been diagnosed and I am now being treated for diabetes.

New medications,new symptoms,you know all that new stuff.

I've lost 10 lbs. in a month due to a change in diet/less sugar intake(diet mountain dew instead of the real stuff)

I am a lot more fatigued today than in the past ,might just be the idea of another "incurable" problem in my body/mind.

Anyway,the new Dr.(one for diabeties) has me taking metformin,glipizide, and of all things, baby aspirin.

Most AM blood sugar levels are around 100-125,not too bad considering what they were before the meds(575 or so)

I am off the depakote and atarax... now its lamictal,citalopram(celexa) and crestor,, gota watch those cholesterol levels you know...

Staying o these meds has been easy so far,just got to keep doing it for the rest of my life... HA.

More later,

KEN

Hi Ken,
So sorry to hear about the diabetes diagnosis. But the good news is that the symptoms are controllable and it's possible that over time you'll feel much better than you have been for a while. I'm hoping that some of things you thought were mood related were actually caused by the diabetes and the metabolic syndrome that probably preceded it.

I did want to draw your attention to the fact that both sugared sodas and diet sodas disrupt blood sugar metabolism.

For example, here's an article from the New York Times from last February about diet drinks and metabolic syndrome, which is considered the forerunner to diabetes. You probably had metabolic syndrome for a long time before you were diagnosed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/nutrition/05symp.html

It says: "the risk of developing metabolic syndrome was 34 percent higher among those who drank one can of diet soda a day compared with those who drank none."

I wish I could get all my friends to stop drinking daily sodas. :(

Anyway, I'm guessing it would help if you could switch from sodas to whole fruits (the more fiber the better) or glasses of fresh water. I wrote about this extensively last year, and a high fiber diet--especially fruit (surprisingly)--helps with blood sugar regulation.

Take care. This may turn out to be good news, since diabetes is controllable.

Well, the blood sugar levels have been steady and "normal".

Metformin and Glipizide have been very effective to this point, haven't needed to inject insulin for a few months now... woohoo.

Now its new meds for the other problems( Seems the older I get, the more problems... HMMMM)

I blew my knee out while splitting many cords of wood.I am now taking a new med called Naproxen.Apparently it'll cause bleeding in the stomach if not taken with food,been OK so far.. it is also a problem with the diabetes,I don't quite understand this,but the Dr. stated it might cause some problems somehow,much less I can't take aspirin or the like for all the other pains I have daily,, WHINE WHINE WHINE.

My Lamictal and Celexa have been a good concoction,seems like this 'MIGHT' be a good winter... we'll see!!

As the initial thread states, Keeping on the daily meds has made me a more functional person,willing to do the right thing,even if it hurts,, sniff,sniff... :)

Hope to hear from my friends and newbies soon,

KEN

Hi Ken,
Glad to hear your medications are working! Do you think that some of your mood problems were related to the untreated diabetes?

I messed up my knee this year too. A pain. Exercise helps.
Have you been doing that?

I've been tapering off my methadone the last few weeks, which makes me sort of obsessive and gives me hot flashes. I thought it was menopause until I looked up methadone withdrawal.

I have my fingers crossed that you have a great winter.

Hi Ken,
Glad to hear your medications are working! Do you think that some of your mood problems were related to the untreated diabetes?

I messed up my knee this year too. A pain. Exercise helps.
Have you been doing that?

I've been tapering off my methadone the last few weeks, which makes me sort of obsessive and gives me hot flashes. I thought it was menopause until I looked up methadone withdrawal.

I have my fingers crossed that you have a great winter.

Yes, some of the moods were definitely from the diabetes, but not all.

My knee is a cartilage tear ,I get the MRI in Monday am and possible scope work before Christmas,, what a glorious winter this will be.LOL :)And exercise,LOTS of it, I am installing a new hand split shake roof on an old(1860's) barn,now that hurts... :(

Hot flashes,huh,Must be thinking about that special someone when they come on... ;)

Hope the intensity tapers off for you,hope to see more of you in here,

Ken

My knee is a combination ACL injury, plus miniscus tear in did in my teens. Then just when it was getting better, I bashed it on a branch. Don't know what that did. At least I can hike now. I do better when I exercise.

The barn. That sounds cool, but really bad for your knee if you are doing a lot of kneeling. Don't do this! That's the one thing I've discovered I cannot do at all anymore.

The hot flashes (ha!) seem purely related to methadone withdrawal. It's weird because I never had them before. I think this is going to be going on for a couple of months, since my planned taper is so slow.

My knee is a combination ACL injury, plus miniscus tear in did in my teens. Then just when it was getting better, I bashed it on a branch. Don't know what that did. At least I can hike now. i do better when I exercise.

The barn. That sounds cool, but really bad for your knee if you are doing a lot of kneeling. Don't do this! That's the one thing I've discovered I cannot do at all anymore.

The hot flashes (ha!) seem purely related to methadone withdrawal. It's weird because I never had them before. I think this is going to be going on for a couple of months, since my planned taper is so slow.

How go those hot flashes?I hope they have settled down for you:)

My surgery is scheduled for Jan 13th.That's a long way off,and being stuck on vicodin for that long isn't sitting well.This pain med is bringing out the addict in me again,I am short tempered,tweaked in my thinking,argumentative,and my buttons are way too easily pushed.

I am on a probation of sorts in here even! I made an enemy of a member and was accused of insulting them.Even though others have pm'ed me to support some of my actions,I still believe I would have never gone to the extremes I did with this issue had I been more 'sober'.

I have been wondering if vicodin causes muscle spasms?At night I stretch and my leg muscles cramp up on the other leg, not the one with the damage.Maybe it's that I use the other leg more due to the injury?Not sure.

Hope you had a nice thanksgiving and hope to hear from you soon,

Ken

Hi Ken,
I had a great thanksgiving with family and hope you did too.

I still have hot flashes, also lots of headaches. Kind of discouraged these days. Tapering is taking so long and I feel crummy nearly all the time. I'm tempted to try cold turkey to get it over with. I HATE methadone! I go down an eighth of a pill every other week and each time that eighth pill less gives me hot flashes and misery.

Of course, I still have baseline lower back and knee pain and that's been worse, so that doesn't help my cranky mood.

I am sorry they have got you on vicodin for such a long time. That sets you up for an addiction relapse, but I'm guessing you will be able to overcome the temptation to continue for more than a reasonable amount of time after the surgery. Maybe give yourself a deadline? A doctor friend told me to keep taking pain meds through physical therapy.( But he's an addict himself. His wife had to through away his drugs.)

I didn't know that pain meds make people short tempered and argumentative. You mean that's not all me??

I've been on pain meds--different ones-- now since June of 2004, though I'm now down to 2.5 mg of methadone. I sleep terribly if I don't take ambien or benadryl or something to help. I switch off, so I don't get dependent on any one thing. The sleep disturbance is a symptom of methadone withdrawal too, so I'm hoping to get better sleep when I'm finally free of its grip.

I took vicodin for a while and I did have muscle spasms in my legs, but both were back in 2004-2005 and I can't tell if there was a connection. Seems possible now that you mention it. It could also be overuse, as you say. Can you do some simple warm ups and stretches before bed? That might help. I would try to do both legs as much as possible. The more you maintain muscle tone in both legs, the better your recovery from the surgery. I read that people who put off knee surgery have a worse outcome because they are so deconditioned by the time they get the surgery.

Hi Ken,

I didn't know that pain meds make people short tempered and argumentative. You mean that's not all me??!

Can you do some simple warm ups and stretches before bed? That might help.

Thanks,I wondered if I was just in my addiction mode again,seems like I am settling down,usage is down to 4-5 a day.(Even though it's dangerous to work in the shop while taking these,power tools and pain meds... not a good mix,unless I can't feel it when I lose a finger... :eek: OUCH!)

Exercise before bed... hmm,that's when it is the most painful.Mornings, the pain is there but after a day of normal use it's a different story.

Surgeon is still booked till Jan.The OR is tied up(I guess not ALL elective surgeries.:rolleyes: )

I guess I would try gentle knee exercises in the morning then. Whatever makes you feel better. For me, it's walking. For you something else might help. It's not so much whether it feels better while you are doing it but how it feels later.

Plus then you could do very gentle stretches before bed. I was just thinking it might be worth trying. You could do some easy yoga type stretches while watching a TV show or similar. (I do that. :)) For example, I stretch out my quads and hamstrings. And also I found a stretch for the si joints that helps my back. Of course, I don't do them as much as I should...

I have a friend who is in the same boat--having to wait for surgery--and his wife told me that it's really hard to get surgery this time of year because people wait until their deductible is used up, then schedule surgery for late in the year. Then people like you who really need it now, have to wait.

4-5 doesn't sound too bad. If that helps you function, it's good!

I'm down to 3/8ths plus a little.

How did the roof come out?

The roof is AWESOME( I need to get some pics of it, once the snow melts that is:p )

Now an insurance company wants me to do a hand split shake repair on a round,ceramic tiled(ceramic sides),barn,only 3-4 square,I said, NOPE, not until 1) winter is over and 2) not until my knee is done healing after surgery.. (they have NO ONE to do this type work... Exclusivity has it's privileges... LOL)

Cool! That it came out so well and that you have people asking you to do work.

I had a good day today. Volunteered helping kids with science fair projects at the local junior high school, went for a walk with a friend, looking at old houses and stone work in my favorite neighborhood.

After thought... My basement is full of hand split shakes from the decrepit house I tore down to build the one I'm in. I use it for kindling. Is that really bad? Is it rescuable? Some of it is rotten, but some is quite solid still. It's about 100 years old.

After thought....My basement is full of hand split shakes from the decrepit house I tore down to build the one I'm in. I use it for kindling. Is that really bad? Is it rescuable? Some of it is rotten, but some is quite solid still. It's about 100 years old.

NO,it is very good kindling,all the scraps/cut-off pieces from the barn,the customer wanted for either the new 'chicken coop,, uggg, or for kindling,it burns great doesn't it?

Rescuable/reusable? Not in the conventional way,to use the old ones might be acceptable for restoration( they are already gray and weathered) but the insurance type work,and the new wouldn't go for anything used(maybe slate/tile,something man made)

I would use them though, great shims for large openings in door frames,maybe to shim a joist/rafter that needed adjusted,, something like that.Much less in art work or making a bird feeder roof... hmmm, Maybe I need to see what you have?? ;)

I have used them for shims on occasion. They do burn wonderfully! Which is why I would not really want a roof made of them here in wildfire central...

The rafters in my old house were held up by redwood branches. When there was an earthquake a lot of them would fall down and I would have to go up in the attic and put them all back in place. They weren't even nailed in. A bit of a shack, but I lived there for 5 years.

I don't think my shakes are worth mailing across the country, but I'm happy to post a photo if you really want to see them? :)

I have used them for shims on occasion. They do burn wonderfully! which is why I would not really want a roof made of them here in wildfire central...

The rafters in my old house were held up by redwood branches. When there was an earthquake a lot of them would fall down and I would have to go up in the attic and put them all back in place. They weren't even nailed in. A bit of a shack, but I lived there for 5 years.

I don't think my shakes are worth mailing across the country, but I'm happy to post a photo if you really want to see them? :)

Just a joke,, I have sooooooo many shakes (and I make my own for interesting little gifts).

Made some from oak once(mostly band saw cuts)They eventually curled up so much the birds simply landed on them,looked around for predators(and competition) and went to eat.

Mine are cedar I think. Nasty splinters. They do not curl!

I can see oak curling.

I've got a lot of tight grained oak rounds I am trying to get my two teenage sons to split. They thought it was fun for half an hour...

Are there any exercises that help your knee? Or is it all bad?

Are there any exercises that help your knee? Or is it all bad?

To bend even halfway down,the left knee(injured) will shoot pain through the entire leg,then the foot is in pain,only on the inside of the foot though.

Both knees used to crack on a regular basis(probably from many years roofing.. etc) and I would purposely kneel to pop them on a regular basis(probably going to have arthritis later in life.Better hurry though,not much life left... lol)

So any real stresses on the left are kind of out,the right leg I can stretch out though.

Great news!

The Doctor called,said that someone canceled their appt. for surgery!! Woo hoo:)

Now it'll be my turn on DEC 24th.

Don't really care if Christmas is a little painful,It's already painful and I would rather be in recovery than in this constant nagging pain anyway(sure,I say this today... :p )

Apparently the squeaky wheel is going to get greased.

These Hydrocodone are not all their cracked up to be,I am more than ready to get some clarity back in my thoughts.Hopefully I'll be off them soon!

Congratulations, Ken! I'm happy to hear this. I guess this is your Christmas present.

As far as exercises, I wasn't thinking of deep knee bends! Heaven forfend.

More like some of these. Anything that can be done without pain.
Knee Pain Exercises (http://www.bigkneepain.com/knee-exercises.html)

I agree about hydrocodone. My feeling at this point is that opiates generally are wonderful for short term use and if you are really stuck with severe chronic pain. I don't think, for example, that NSAIDS like ibuprofen are in any way better. They just have different trade offs and, overall, opiates are much safer. But even aside from physical dependency, opiates have cognitive side effects that are subtle but persistent.

Good luck with the surgery!

Christmas came early this year,The surgery got advanced again, Had it this AM!It went great,and I was home by 2PM.

Now the pain pills are doing for recovery instead of nursing the long term pain.

I meet with the psych Dr. in the AM and I feel confident the meds will stay the same,as I am doing well enough this year(so far.. :) )

Busy, busy, busy! This is great and I hope you recover quickly.
Merry Christmas and sleep well tonight. :)

How are you doing, Ken?

I am just this side of inebriation this AM,I have had little sleep,I think it's the meds more than the spiking pains.

My equilibrium is off and I forgot to put coffee grounds in the maker,I ended up with slightly colored water at a high temp:p

The pain is OK,especially in the AM,as I have been off the leg almost all night,but as the day progresses, the pain increases,not intolerable,just evident enough to let me know it's there.

Thanks for asking... asking... :p(been wondering when that pun could be of use... lol):D

And I am Peeing like a race horse lately as well,normally I am dry mouthed from the anti-depressants,but I seem to be drying out with these pain pills too.I drink water after my 2 cups of coffee(as they tend to dry me out even more)maybe the water is just flowing right through me?

I would give advice, but I can't remember much of how I felt or what I did after my spinal fusion. I read somewhere that general anesthesia can damage memory. Something damaged mine for that period.

Glad the pain is not too bad. My 80 year old friend who had double knee replacement said she had virtually no pain. She was traveling to Europe a couple of months later.

I would give advice, but I can't remember much of how I felt or what I did after my spinal fusion. I read somewhere that general anesthesia can damage memory. Something damaged mine for that period.

Glad the pain is not too bad. My 80 year old friend who had double knee replacement said she had virtually no pain. She was traveling to Europe a couple of months later.



When my husband had surgery they gave him a drug as part of the anesthesia (and I'd have to look at his medical records to find out what it was) that they said would pretty much wipe out his memory of the surgery, that night and the following day, and it did. He was in a lot of pain with minimal medication and I was concerned he would remember the pain.

Judy,
I've always wondered if even if you don't explicitly remember the pain, you still remember it in other ways. For example, there are people who are blind. They tell you they cannot see a thing, but if you ask them to walk down a hallway full of obstacles, they can do it. So their eyes are working, but they are not conscious of seeing.

Some memories are like that. Physical memory in the body, like knowing how to walk or ride a bicycle is mostly not a conscious memory. A child couldn't tell you how to do it. I think memories of trauma and pain could be like that. Maybe people who have had major surgery are different psychologically from those who have not.

New year,new MEDS! Yaaaaa, NOT.

New year has begun with the Geodon,NO Celexa,new Klonopin(sp)and some new one for anxiety as well.Slightly over medicated,but seemingly coherent,for now.

I was taking all meds as prescribed and ,well, something went awry,I couldn't sleep much less concentrate.

Now I al at a lower end of excitability an doing better since the new changes(and ANOTHER trip inpatient) :(

Oh well, I'll keep on , keeping on.

More changes!
Imagine my surprise!

Sleep is just about the only outlet I am comforted with.

I have lost all interest in the things I normally do so I sleep instead.

Doc hasn't returned my calls for changes or any other advice.There are no other 'local' P,Docs around,so I am at the mercy of the one I have, OK,country living isn't all that!

Hi Ken,
Sorry to hear things are not going well. :(
It sounds like you are getting too much of something. Also, some of these medications could be interacting. Can't you make an appointment with this doctor who won't return your calls? Take a list when you go...

How is your knee now?

Hi,asking,No the appointments are at their scedual and the knee is doing well enough,, I can walk.. hehe, really though,I have been able to pop the knee 2 times since surgery and each time I feel better than the last,I think all the pain is done(Fingers/eyes/toes.. etc crossed) :)

I'm glad your knee is better. That's great!

I don't understand a doctor refusing to see a patient though. If they are adamant, you might need to travel to see someone else. It sounds like you are over medicated and, also, too medicated to drive? Can your daughter help?

I'm glad your knee is better. That's great!

I don't understand a doctor refusing to see a patient though. If they are adamant, you might need to travel to see someone else. It sounds like you are over medicated and, also, too medicated to drive? Can your daughter help?

I have been discussing the idea about seeing a different doc.My coverage will accept most any doc and distance isn't posing much of a problem anymore(I stopped contracting last fall)maybe your right,look for a new one is most likely the right choice!

I have been discussing the idea about seeing a different doc.My coverage will accept most any doc and distance isn't posing much of a problem anymore(I stopped contracting last fall)maybe your right,look for a new one is most likely the right choice!


Yeah, if you are this sleepy, you need to talk to someone about drug interactions and such. I'm also wondering if not working is making things harder. I've been out of work for a while, I and I know that affects my mood at times.

I'm rooting for you, Ken!

Yeah, if you are this sleepy, you need to talk to someone about drug interactions and such. I'm also wondering if not working is making things harder. I've been out of work for a while, I and I know that affects my mood at times.

I'm rooting for you, Ken!

Well,low and behold,they actually agreed with me on the meds,I got a change order today(about 30 min. ago(4:40 local)and now I can get the treatment going in a positive note again(All it took was a little 'manipulation' on my part,, and acceptance on theirs... hehe:p )

Thanks for the cheering section!!

I am alone tonight and very depressed.I am taking many of my prescriptions and hoping this will be the end of things for me.I hope all have a decent life(except a few)and further yourselves in the fine pursuits you are following.

Hey, Ken. I just got back from a trip. Please don't take these pills if you have not already. You have been such a help to me at times as well as many others here. Are there not parts of your life that are good? This mood you are in is probably temporary, although it sounds like a very dark and scary one.

Please reconsider. I'm very concerned.
asking

One of the wonders of life, is no matter how bad you think your life is, you can always find someone worst.

I visited a Cancer center for those that can not be cured and almost to the level of hospice care today.

I know ai take 12 medications every day, and it is hard to do them all the time.

But the wonders of life is that no matter how bad it is now, one can always do better in the future

I have at times in my life just wanted it to be over. I do know what that feels like. I am glad that I am here, for myself and for my kids. There are enough good days to make it okay and sometimes wonderful.

I am glad that you are here too. You are a very cool person, Ken.

I am alone tonight and very depressed.I am taking many of my prescriptions and hoping this will be the end of things for me.I hope all have a decent life(except a few)and further yourselves in the fine pursuits you are following.

Ken, sorry I have not been around, but have been working a LOT.

I'm hoping you have not taken too many and will be able to respond to this soon.

Okay, don't be stupid Ken, you know this is not the way to handle things. You know that this is just a bump in the road of new meds. You of all people KNOW this.

Ken, you know I am almost always here to talk if you need me. If you can't find me, you know you can PM me.

Why are you depressed? What has happened? Why are you alone?

Ken, love, you can't just leave a post like this and disappear, you need to talk to us so we can help you through this. Had you stayed on the computer long enough, you would not have been alone. You would have been with us.

Take care Ken, I care for you and you know that.

Dear Ken,

I've tried calling and emailing you. Please do respond. We're all worried about you!

I know that you were active on that other site a few nights ago, and from what I've read there, you didn't seem to indicate that you were having some kind of problem.

I've met with you personally and would love to do so again! We don't live very far from each other.

Please, do respond to us here...

Thanks!

Well, I took nearly all the pills I had left.(many thousand milligrams)

I have spent 4 days in ICU on respirator.

Spent the rest of these days in inpatient care facility.

I was depressed,I was suicidal,I did what I felt necessary at the time.

I am still teary-eyed and just hanging in there today,another bad night.Maybe I got out too soon.IDK.

Ken, I'm so glad that you're still around! Are you alone, or is there someone there with you?

Thanks!

I am glad you are too. Thanks for posting today.

I'm sorry you were so depressed. If you got out too soon, it's okay to go back. You can just call them and say that. Like Clough, I'd like to know if someone is with you.

Also, please post tomorrow. I would really like to hear more about how you are doing.

Hi, asking!

I tried to send you a private message, but your mailbox is full! Would you please empty it at least a little bit?

Thanks!

Ken, I am so glad to hear you are okay. At least physically. I too want to be sure someone is with you at all times. If not, I'll take some personal time off to help you through this.

Ken, you know as well as I do that switching medications can cause a "psychosis" such as this. As hard as it is, we have to remember the side effects and not follow through with the feelings they give us.

Feel free to email me anytime you want. I am not asking for unsolicited PMs or emails, Ken has my email already. I'll give you my phone number for you to call should you feel this desperate again. I only say this because I answer my phone 24/7, Ken is a friend, and I am a friend of his. Again, this is NOT asking to take questions or answers off the board, just supporting a friend.

Ken, I'm so glad that you're still around! Are you alone, or is there someone there with you?

Thanks!

I am not alone,there are at least 2 of me in here... haha(at least he hasn't lost the sense of humor)

I am at the parents for the duration,thanks though,I wouldn't like to be alone at this time anyway,the girlfriend would spend more time with me if she wasn't too busy either.

Ken, I am so glad to hear you are okay. At least physically. I too want to be sure someone is with you at all times. If not, I'll take some personal time off to help you through this.

Ken, you know as well as I do that switching medications can cause a "psychosis" such as this. As hard as it is, we have to remember the side effects and not follow through with the feelings they give us.

Feel free to email me anytime you want. I am not asking for unsolicited PMs or emails, Ken has my email already. I'll give you my phone number for you to call should you feel this desperate again. I only say this because i answer my phone 24/7, Ken is a friend, and I am a friend of his. Again, this is NOT asking to take questions or answers off the board, just supporting a friend.

I am going to the therapist on Tue.but if this keeps up I am going back inpatient before then anyway.

Thanks again for responding, Ken! I can't remember if you have any background in playing a musical instrument or singing.

Do you?

Thanks!

I am glad you are too. Thanks for posting today.

I'm sorry you were so depressed. If you got out too soon, it's okay to go back. You can just call them and say that. Like Clough, I'd like to know if someone is with you.

Also, please post tomorrow. I would really like to hear more about how you are doing.

I can't seem to get to sleep, but I do sleep about 6 hours each night(so far)

I am a little delirious(thank god for spell check)Some higher functions(like typing)are slow to return,but I seem OK for now.

I am HIGHLY reactive to caffeine.I have a cup(big one) of coffee and 1/2 of a mountain dew,then it's Propel water for the rest of the day/evenings,I shake uncontrollably even now(9:30 PM),, maybe no more caffeine for me for a while.

I have had many 'episodes' and I am now being treated like a child with no responsibility as to when to take meds and I am OK with this,, for now,sometime I will want those concerns removed,but best for now they are as they are.

I will write back as often as I can, thanks for looking into this thread everyone.

Thanks again for responding, Ken! I can't remember if you have any background in playing a musical instrument or singing.

Do you?

Thanks!

I played Violin for some years then Cello for more,but that was quite a while back,doubt I have much of those skills left.

Now, I do remember!

Do you still have the instruments? Do you like to write poetry or lyrics?

Thanks!

Now, I do remember!

Do you still have the instruments? Do you like to write poetry or lyrics?

Thanks!

No,no writing or the like,I am more into the woodworking than other arts.

Hi Ken,

Maybe a small do-able wood working project would be cheering? Something non challenging and soothing?

Nice to have you back.

How are you doing today?

Hi Ken,

Maybe a small do-able wood working project would be cheering? Something non challenging and soothing?

Nice to have you back.

How are you doing today?

I have been told to try Benedryl for the lack of sleep,it has taken the shakes down to a tolerable level and I hope to sleep tonight(last night wasn't much of a sleep)

Ken, I can't say how glad I am to see you back here. I had Clough calling you almost endlessly, I'm sure he got tired of my PMs. LOL

The benadryl will take the shakes off, but with your meds, I'm not too sure about the sleeping part.

Hey, Ken, Was today any better? Okay if not. Just let us know how you are feeling. Bad depression about the worst thing I know.

I sometimes take benadryl for sleep.

It's very springy here in California. I'm trying to attach a picture of poppies. I've never done this before here... Hope it works.

Thanks for the pics,my property was burned(cleared for the new 'prairie' season) and the new growth is coming up already,rains have given a lot for the plant life lately!!

Today was much like the others,the shakes are settling down thanks to a friend(bi-polar) who had cogentin for the side effects of the meds,I have now taken 1 for the night and hope it does enough for the shakes and then I can get some sleep!! :)

I would love to see the prairie plants coming up. American prairie always seems so romantic to me (not in the love sense). I try to imagine people seeing it for the first time, wading out into it. I didn't know you lived on prairie. Is this tall grass or short grass?

Hope the shakes are better tomorrow.

I would love to see the prairie plants coming up. American prairie always seems so romantic to me (not in the love sense). I try to imagine people seeing it for the first time, wading out into it. I didn't know you lived on prairie. Is this tall grass or short grass?

Hope the shakes are better tomorrow.

:eek:You really didn't know??

Yes,we are on 35 acres of sand prairie,surrounded by 1500 acres of nature conservancy(land locked)

We have 250+ identified species and the conservancy has a little more(more diverse lands)

The return of the Badger and Bobcat are just a few things we brag about.

We have been at it since '93.

The shakes are down(thanks to a friend and his cogentin(sp?) but it did allow me to sleep with some semblance of comfort.

Wow! I had no idea. That sounds so beautiful. Bobcats and badgers too!

Congratulations on a half decent night's sleep. I hope things are starting to look up for you. What does it look like outside?

Wow! I had no idea. That sounds so beautiful. Bobcats and badgers too!

Congratulations on a half decent night's sleep. I hope things are starting to look up for you. What does it look like outside?

Sorry so long on responding.

I joined a different site(answer bag),it is a more 'social' site and I got very involved in it,almost to an obsession,I am now coming back to earth.

Outside now the plants are growing to almost ankle height(too much rain for the area in the past few weeks, we have standing water in many areas and moss is forming),the birds are moving in to the new birdhouses I installed this spring(17 bluebird boxes,half of them needed replaced) and the early morning birdsong is truly inspiring.

Medication update:After being put on Geodon and Tegratol for a 2 1/2 month time I was removed from them by a new psyche dr.The tegratol lessens the effectiveness of the geodon and now I am going through some serious withdraws from it.This year has been a real roller coaster ride for me.

I have been prescribed a combination I used to be on many years ago but as of yet I am not able to comply with them,the withdraws are too intense.Sleep is sporadic and I am in need of steady sleep,much less the ability to eat(upset system),the change is necessary but not very comfortable.

I am taking 80 mg of Geodon every other day as the withdraw symptoms get too much to handle,sleep for 8 hours and have an OK 24 hours before the symptoms return and it starts over again.The Dr didn't think I would go through withdraws from only a couple of months of use,but I am.Today I am contacting the pharmacy for a lesser dosage of it as I think 80 mg is too much,I have scrips for 40 mg and I can try to use them every other day to ween myself off.I hate self medicating.

Still on the Geodon as I still have problems with cramps(withdraws),the other meds have stabilized and I am (finally)sleeping like a normal person.

Staying on the 'new' meds hasn't posed any new problems so I will continue with them.

Good to see you back Ken. I've been so busy with work I have had little time to do anything but sleep.

Glad you have hit the stabilization level with your meds. Hope all else is going good with you.

Good to see you back Ken. I've been so busy with work I have had little time to do anything but sleep.

Glad you have hit the stabilization level with your meds. Hope all else is going good with you.

Thus far,all is A OK,just not looking forward to the next run in with you know who:(

Update:

Meds have begun failing me in the sleep dept.I haven't been working due to carpel tunnel and tennis elbow(been 6+ months now)I have surgery for the carpel tunnel in a week(Friday the 13th)then maybe,after recovery time,something for the tendinitis, they haven't instilled much confidence in me concerning that one,they say it's a tricky thing, I am not sure what's going to happen.

I am back on the Zoloft/Depakote and some nights sonata or ambien,both offer some relief from the sleep disorder,but I am up at 2:30 AM most nights anyway,even taking them.

I have Lorazepam(Atavan) for the really high times,Cogentin for the shakes and a few others for 'just in case',additives prescribed for more rest,although I prefer not to take much else,enough is enough(especially after last springs episode with the overdose)

So far the mind is still clear and the depression is not an issue,but this lack of sleep will take a toll eventually,something has to break.

Hi Ken,
Can you exercise? If you are not able to work, then you would have time maybe to take a walk in the morning, maybe a half hour, and then an hour in the evening after dinner. That would do two things, help you sleep and also slow the onset of depression.

My own experience with ambien was that it was great for occasional use, but that if I used it regularly it didn't help, but not taking it was even worse. When I finally kicked it after tapering to a quarter of a pill every night, I barely slept for two weeks. It is really nice, but only to use once or twice a week. It also affected my memory quite a lot.

I have been struggling with insomnia lately too. It helps me to not use the computer or do any work late at night, to go to bed relatively early, and to get exercise. Fresh air in my room helps me too for some reason.

For what it's worth, I had a kind of tendinitis in my foot earlier this year. I did everything the podiatrist said and it was not going away and it hurt to even stand on my foot. Specifically, he'd had me not using my foot as much as possible, as well as ice and NSAIDs (alleve).

I started regularly using Salonpas (which are these weird little patches that contain aspirin and camphor that soaks into your skin; I didn't use the kind with capsaicin). I also started exercising my toes and feet, gradually increasing the amount, both muscular and stretches. Amazingly, after following the podiatrist's advice for 4 months and not getting anywhere, my foot started to get better in about three weeks with exercise and 24/7 salonpas. It's still not perfect but it's a lot better and I can walk 5 miles no problem. I also used NSAIDs and ice, like he said.

The trick was to gently exercise the tiny muscles surrounding the tendons. And the Salonpas. Or so I imagined.

This is purely my own thing. I didn't read it anywhere. But so long as anything you think up doesn't make you worse, it might be worth a try.

Also, if you get sleep, it will help your pain. And if your pain is less, you will sleep better. Hard sometimes to break out of that vicious cycle. But sometimes it helps to focus on sleep--without, of course, obsessing about it to the point that when you wake up in the night you get upset!

Hope all this advice is somewhat useful and not just annoying.

Good!

PS. You just gave me my 5th green box!
(my 400th greenie. Yay! Thanks!)

Still staying on the prescribed meds,now-a-days it's lower Zoloft,normal Depakote,Prestiq(due to major depressive episode)and now I sleep almost all the time,imagine that:(

Someday I would like to have a normal month,just enough sleep,just enough food,just enough social interactions,etc.

In the last year I have had little stability(not whining,just an observation),the doctor I have now is very different than the ones I had in the last 15 years in that he is more an equal in my treatment instead of a superior to me.I feel much more at ease with him.When I have a problem(depression,hyper moods,etc) I am able to get the help as needed instead of waiting for the doctor to have an opening(I have his direct number and can call at all hours, that's real handy)

I am again tanning this winter,the activity gets me out of the house every day,gets me to socialize with others(at the spa),I look great with a tan in the middle of the winter(and feel better for it),and I believe the influx of bright light is helpful to the seasonal depression.

More later,I hope everyone had a good holiday season.
Ken

Hi Ken,
You sound good for midwinter. This is always a tough time. I moved my bed right into a window where the sun comes in in the morning and I think that is helping me. I will probably hate it when the sun starts coming up at 4 am!

I was exercising for a while and feeling great. Then I stopped over Christmas and almost instantly fell into a slump. I will go out and run for a few minutes today. Even 5 minute helps.

Nice that the tanning is helping you. And GREAT that you have a cooperative doctor. I went to see a doctor last month about my back pain and he was a complete jerk to me. But he is the doctor I have to see if I want physical therapy. All he does is take my copay and insult me. THEN I can go to physical therapy.

I've had those doc's too,like arrogant snobbish over paid brats.

The last Physical therapist I saw ended up not only being a neighbor but also hunts our property in the winter, any time I have need of his services I simply give him a call:)

Hope all goes well for you in the new year:)

Ken,

Are you okay now? I'm fighting my own battles here...

It's pretty depressing...

Thanks!

Ken,

Are you okay now? I'm fighting my own battles here...

It's pretty depressing...

Thanks!

Am I doing OK, somewhat,I guess.

I have been very down since Thanksgiving, well,even and down anyway, Many changes in medications, mainly a new drug called Prestiq, something like 6 months old now,it has removed the deepest of the depression but not all of it, that takes time.

What are you doing for past times?Getting out much?

I'm going through some issues now. I actually wish that I was on some sort of medicatiion to balance things out. Turned myself into a local mental health center this past Summer, after my rather grave physical problems, and decided not to follow through because of not being able to afford it, even though there is a sliding fee scale.

I do have friends with whom I can talk and discuss things...

Business has been pretty good for December. I wish that it would be that good all of the time! I'm working with area agencies for various things. Have a new furnace now as well as a new hot water heater. I haven't had hot water in two years. Need to fix the broken pipes. Have already fixed them three times. Situation is much worse now though because of freezing last year...

Fixing the broken pipes is the next thing that needs to be done.

I've got to get over there and visit with you!

Later...

The online database I have here, like a diary,is very necessary for my mental well being,as well(I hope) for others who might read this thread.

I am now attempting to quit smoking.For the past week I have been on a patch for the replacement of nicotine in the system, the hurdle now is the action of putting the cig to my mouth, and the smoke from it.

During the first few days of this treatment,I smoked about half as much as I normally had previous to using the patch, the effects were not readily noticed.

Within a 4 day period,I began to notice vivid dreams at night,fatigue during the days(could also be attributed to my bipolar),and a lack of appetite.I was down to 5 smokes at that time.

Yesterday,I smoked 3.The effects of the patch are becoming more and more evident as the time goes by.It states on the packaging,if you have vivid dreams you can remove the patch at night, I did for the first time last night, within a few hours,I felt relief from the (seemingly,too much) nicotine.

I awoke today to find that the dreams I was having were much less severe,I actually slept through the night(almost) and :( rewarded myself to a smoke this AM.. :mad:

Upon reflection,I cleaned up,thought rationally about this action, I am an addict,I am weak in that I have to be vigilant in,'Policing' my thinking,I can do this,I am better than this smoking,I am on a patch to help me through the toughest times,but eventually I will need to be free of all nicotine.

The suggested timetable for these patches, Weeks 1-4,step 1(21 mg),Weeks 5 and 6,step 2(14mg),Weeks 7 and 8,step 3(7 mg)

Being on step one hasn't been very tough,, yet, I am getting more than what I should be getting for nicotine(I shouldn't even be smoking, but I did), and I have stopped the constant thinking that revolves around any addiction, smoking is no different than any other drug/alcohol.

Can I do this?Can I stay with the methods laid down by this drug Mfgr. And see this through?

I am feeling a little bit alone in this, I seem to have alienated friends and associates.I am now seen as a threat to 'friends' who still smoke(like I am some kind of authority figure,upon reflection, I did this also to 'friends' who quit, hmm... :( )

Hope to hear from others who are struggling with this as well.

KBC

Hi Ken,
This is wonderful! I am impressed that you are doing this. Like they say, just take it one day at a time, step by step. You certainly can do this. It will be tough, but I'm guessing not worse than other things you've been through. I confess I have never smoked, but I know many people who have quit. It's difficult but definitely doable. I think if anyone can do it, you can.

I am rooting for you!

I'm unsure of the timetable here. Going from "07 to '10.

Have info on patch if I'm responding timely.

Hi Dr. Bill.
Welcome! This is more like a running discussion.
Info about nicotine patch is very timely.

(Fentanyl patch not so much, but shoot anyway.)

Hi Ken,
This is wonderful! I am impressed that you are doing this. Like they say, just take it one day at a time, step by step. You certainly can do this. It will be tough, but I'm guessing not worse than other things you've been through. I confess I have never smoked, but I know many people who have quit. It's difficult but definitely doable. I think if anyone can do it, you can.

I am rooting for you!

I am going to make it,one way or another,, :)

I figure the first weeks are going to actually be easy(as soon as I STOP the actual sneaking one in here and there), the second stage will be easier if I can stop cheating right now.

Only have 4 left in the last pack I want to buy,, I just know that leaving them there as temptation will allow me to smoke them, but I just can't throw them out.

Once an addict,always an addict..

Thanks again for your support asking, it really does mean a lot;)

I'm unsure of the timetable here. Going from "07 to '10.

Have info on patch if I'm responding timely.

Yes,DrBill100, there isn't really a time frame on a sticky thread, at least they haven't stopped me from posting things on here for the last 3 years.. :p

Hi Ken,

You mention "cheating" and sneaking one. Isn't that like sneaking a beer? Patch or not, oral/manual habit or not, You aren't fooling yourself.

I'm just thinking aloud. I have smoked while on the patch too.

It's almost as if the addicted self is "separate" from who we want to be. Like a willful child wanting to sneak in a secret recess instead of sitting in class, he wants to go his own way. He wants to get away with something, even if that something is playing on the freeway during rush hour.

So does it help to give yourself permission to have one smoke per day for four more days, or something like that?

When I was tapering off methadone, strict rules were very important to me. It gave me structure and I knew if I was cheating and when I was not, but the rules had to be something I could tolerate. Don't know if this will help.

Another thought. I STILL have methadone and fentanyl left from three years ago, or whenever. A friend pressured me to throw them away, thinking I'd be tempted. For me, it's a measure of myself control to have them in my sock drawer... I am not tempted. Everybody's different though.

Hi Ken,

You mention "cheating" and sneaking one. Isn't that like sneaking a beer? Patch or not, oral/manual habit or not, You aren't fooling yourself.

I'm just thinking aloud. I have smoked while on the patch too.

It's almost as if the addicted self is "separate" from who we want to be. Like a willful child wanting to sneak in a secret recess instead of sitting in class, he wants to go his own way. He wants to get away with something, even if that something is playing on the freeway during rush hour.

Yes,exactly, which is why I am mentioning it,I think others need to see that in addiction,even being treated on medications(patch,etc) there are still 'old behaviors' associated with our pasts,in addiction I am not cured, I am a process in progress.

Today I smoked 3 more, I am now down to 1 in the pack, hmm, do I buy another and allow the addiction to continue? or do I do the next right thing, stick to the decision I made to quit.

I know I will stay on the patch, even though I think it's too strong at 21 mg,(might be the added smoking along with the dosage), I'll find out soon, IF I can make it through tomorrow(maybe I can throw out that last one, just to say I can do it!)

I have tapered down from the 8 to 5 to 3 for 2 days, maybe now I can make the decision stick..

My support has all but abandoned me(offline support) and online there hasn't been too many piping in besides you 2... of which I am VERY grateful.I am awaiting Dr.Bill100's input as well.

Thanks again,

Ken

Good luck, Ken!

I just met a deadline and am going to go have pizza and watch last night's Daily Show with my two teens. Wanted to check in and cheer you on. I know these first few days/weeks are the hardest. This seems like a good time of year to do it. Maybe you can get outdoors and get your mind in other tracks at least some of the time. Not sure what the weather is like there, but here you could plant some flowers; rent a canoe and go row on a lake. :)

Take care.

Good luck, Ken!

I just met a deadline and am going to go have pizza and watch last night's Daily Show with my two teens. Wanted to check in and cheer you on. I know these first few days/weeks are the hardest. This seems like a good time of year to do it. Maybe you can get outdoors and get your mind in other tracks at least some of the time. Not sure what the weather is like there, but here you could plant some flowers; rent a canoe and go row on a lake. :)

Take care.

The weather played a small roll as the roads were posted and the trucks couldn't get in to deliver the stone and top-soil for the project here at home,I cut out,leveled and installed a drive to the workshop,around it and behind it, the weather was terrific, it rained just once while I was doing the whole project,as of yesterdays rain(which was very brief) the seed was down and is now bedded.

Now is the real test... Wednesday I begin a project with a friend who smokes like a chimney,he knows I am trying to quit, but around the exposure, I guess it'll be the real test for me,the real world is going to continue to do what it does,I am just going to have to live with it:(

Rent a canoe,go row in a lake, sounds like you're sending me down the river... :eek:

My Psyche doc suggested I move to Phoenix year round(and perhaps when I am without the responsibilities I have here,I just might do it).My response to him,"Just write the scrip and I'll be there", well, here I am:(

As any good addict,I smoked the last one last night, rationalized that I was too excited over the Penguins(hockey) win and needed a smoke, imagine that!

Today I am going for broke, smoke free,no trips to the store for a new pack,no weakness,no excuses.This has to stick.I know I can,I know I can... Fierce determination and the 'rewards' from no longer smoking(many health issues I have from it,and I just might recover from the next surgery faster if I am not a smoker!

Here I go,down the happy road of destiny,without a crutch.

Wow! Sounds like a great project--the drive to the workshop and flower beds.

Down the river, no. Just suggesting an outing that takes you out of your usual haunts and at least temporarily away from a store. :)

Congrats on the Penguins win. Penguins were my Junior High school mascot.
(Sharks won out here, but I don't follow it.)

Wednesday will be tough but first things first.
Just today...

Wednesday will be tough but first things first.
Just today...

Yes,just today(wow,that trip to the store is looking like a necessity,, but food only,, only,, ooonnlllyyy,, mmmmmmmmmm... I can do it!:rolleyes:

Shop somewhere where you can avoid that aisle?
A health food store?

Good luck!

A sponsor I had once said that she could be around her husband's drinking by remembering that it was his booze, not hers.

With cigarettes it's something about the smell. Hopefully when your friend visits, the smell of his smoking will be a reminder to you that it's the smell of death.

Stick by your decision. Even if you need to re-decide every 5 minutes.

Keep us posted.

[QUOTE=;]My support has all but abandoned me(offline support) and online there hasn't been too many piping in besides you 2... of which I am VERY grateful.I am awaiting Dr.Bill100's input as well./QUOTE]

KBC, I didn't abandon you in your pursuit I've been taking a non-intervention position as you had already decided on a method. Waiting to see how that is working for you. Bring me up to speed: what is your current status.

In particular, have you had any noticeable depression or any type of extreme (exaggerated) physical response to reduction in your smoking?

[QUOTE=;]My support has all but abandoned me(offline support) and online there hasn't been too many piping in besides you 2...of which I am VERY grateful.I am awaiting Dr.Bill100's input as well./QUOTE]

KBC, I didn't abandon you in your pursuit I've been taking a non-intervention position as you had already decided on a method. Waiting to see how that is working for you. Bring me up to speed: what is your current status.

In particular, have you had any noticeable depression or any type of extreme (exaggerated) physical response to reduction in your smoking?

Current status,perhaps tired often, if I am not keeping busy,I am sleepy.

I have had NO cigarettes today, this is the first day of none.And for me, that's a great big step.It's 4:30 my time, I've been up for 12 hours and no serious cravings.. I believe that I can get through this, it'll just take time.

I wasn't saying you abandoned me DrBill, there are a few friends who aren't responding at all to my posts, they were a large part of my past here at AMHD,perhaps they have other things going on in their lives, I really don't know(and the world doesn't revolve around me all the time, but,, I really could use their kindness right now:(.

Your help and advice, all of your's,is most appreciated.

Rule one of any process is success. If it's working don't change it. Are you doing anything to relax, relieve stress, craving etc.

Rule one of any process is success. If it's working don't change it. Are you doing anything to relax, relieve stress, craving etc.?

For the past few weeks I have been concentrating on a large project here at home, it has occupied my time/thinking,etc until yesterday afternoon.Now the project is completed.From the extreme of constant to the other of nil,this isn't really different from my past.Insanity aside,doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, I don't have the expectations I used to have,I am without a plan if things get,well,rough.

As long as I don't set myself up for failure, sabotage my life in some way,allow things to occur without projecting an outcome, I am pretty sure I can accept life on life's terms.

I have cut back on 'some' of my caffeine intake,more water instead of mountain dew.walking from our place to next door(even over the road this can be a good walk.) and I haven't returned to those places I used to frequent for smoking, except the vehicle,which used to be a real issue.I am still up in the air about what to do there.

Cravings, well,if I think hard about one,I remember WHY I want to quit, believe me,it might be personal,but it is VERY powerful.This type of decision has backbone,keeps me grounded,doesn't allow for much wandering.My mind is hazy but I think it is the patch,nothing more.

I was going to mention caffeine. Active smokers metabolize caffeine at almost twice the rate of non-smokers. That usually means you drink more caffeine and if so, after reducing smoke, you would experience greater anxiety and agitation from the caffeine intake.

Here is a website that gives some tips on breathing, contacts etc. Quit smoking -- the classic boilerplate points (http://www.tobaccofree.org/quitpoints.htm)

In addition, monitor your mood as tobacco smoke (not nicotine) has an antidepressant effect, influencing MAO in your brain. We know this antidepressant effect exists but don't understand the mechanism.

Ken, This sounds very positive. Do you have plans for another project? Maybe something not too demanding or stressful, but distracting and fun?

I agree with Dr. Bill about reducing stress. When you start to taper off the patch you'll need something in place. The walks sound nice. I watched the golden eagle attacking the deer. Amazing!

As for the caffeine, I personally would cut out one drug at a time. Cutting back is different and fine if it isn't stressing you. In other words, one major challenge at a time.

As for the caffeine, I personally would cut out one drug at a time. Cutting back is different and fine if it isn't stressing you. In other words, one major challenge at a time.

I hope I didn't mislead with my previous message. Asking is absolutely right. One at a time. My point on the caffeine is that you are accustomed to overuse due to the rapid metabolism created by smoking. If you continue at the same rate you will be consuming much more than you need, due to habit. Too much caffeine would in turn create nervousness, agitation etc that most people associate with tobacco withdrawal, and making things more difficult than they need be. Just keep that in mind. But, once again, don't look to cease consumption.

I was going to mention caffeine. Active smokers metabolize caffeine at almost twice the rate of non-smokers. That usually means you drink more caffeine and if so, after reducing smoke, you would experience greater anxiety and agitation from the caffeine intake.

Here is a website that gives some tips on breathing, contacts etc., Quit smoking -- the classic boilerplate points (http://www.tobaccofree.org/quitpoints.htm)

In addition, monitor your mood as tobacco smoke (not nicotine) has an antidepressant effect, influencing MAO in your brain. We know this antidepressant effect exists but don't understand the mechanism.

A very interesting post, thank you!

I hope I didn't mislead with my previous message. Asking is absolutely right. One at a time. My point on the caffeine is that you are accustomed to overuse due to the rapid metabolism created by smoking. If you continue at the same rate you will be consuming much more than you need, due to habit. Too much caffeine would in turn create nervousness, agitation etc that most people associate with tobacco withdrawal, and making things more difficult than they need be. Just keep that in mind. But, once again, don't look to cease consumption.

As both of you have said, no I won't completely remove the caffeine from my system, been there, wow,those withdraws are worse than too cold ice cream in a hot mouth, OUCH!!

I have also a large supply of Ativan for any real high anxiety,and I can only hope that I can stay somewhat level with the moods, I know they will swing, same with any change in chemicals being introduced/reduced/removed from a system.

Thanks again for the posts, I really do need this!

Hope you are doing well this morning, Ken.

I'll be checking in again later to see if you posted.

I have been fine thus far,no cravings,slept much of the day, but also had some shop time, finishing a new table top.

I am having a difficult time believing how easy this is,I really thought it would be much worse.

Soooo, so far so good:)

Yay! That's great. :)

It shouldn't be too bad since you are still getting a regular dose of the nicotine from the patch. Are you still taking it off at night?

My teenage son and I went for what we thought would be a short hike with cameras. But decide to explore a side trail that took us back into town and through an industrial area before we found our way back to the car. Lonnng walk. We are hot, foot sore and tired. But it was fun.

LOL,it fell off last night,so I didn't even know till in the AM(like 2 AM:( ),but I'll be keeping aware of it at night, I really don't want to awaken to a craving, that would make the entire day a test.

What's the temp out your way? Must be warm, ours hasn't been too high at all,what with the storms going through.. and being up in the wind zone.

My walk today was just around the new driveway,noting areas I want to work on after things dry up,I would normally have had at least 2-3 smokes while doing this,much less while working on a project in the shop, it was kind of nice ,but well, kind of miss it too.

69- 70. Greenery everywhere. It finally stopped raining.

Yesterday, I had a go at the vegetation growing along the edge of my driveway using a scythe I bought from somewhere back east. Quieter than a weed whacker and cuts more stuff faster and it's better exercise. I have to watch for little branches and stuff that could catch the blade and nick it.

My support has all but abandoned me(offline support) and online there hasn't been too many piping in besides you 2...of which I am VERY grateful.I am awaiting Dr.Bill100's input as well.

Thanks again,

Ken

Ken, you know I am here for you. I will never abandon you, but my time here now is very limited. :(

Ken, you know I am here for you. I will never abandon you, but my time here now is very limited. :(

I guess I am hurt by your time away,I am most likely taking it too personally.

Our last PM didn't get finalized and I can only guess it wasn't an easy one for you to answer.:confused:

I sure would like to see more of you online, your advice has always been fluent and appreciated,at least by those I have ever read.

These patches do cause sleep situations,vivid dreams and now some voices as well, might be symptoms or side effects of the product,might be from my bi-polar, I just don't know.(and like normal,they all happen on the weekends when I would have no contact with my primary and don't exactly want to call the psyche, I am not committable for these)

I have been very compliant on all my other medications,the psyche doc doubled my Ativan to 2) .5mg daily,although all they have made me do is sleep.But under sleep,I don't have any thoughts of smoking, guess that's a fair trade-off.

Anyway,this week should bring things into perspective,work returns Wed.I might have 3 other contracts soon,and one to look at in the burbs as well, maybe:p

I'll post new pics soon showing the new yard layout,(after the grass begins to grow back),it took me 5 weeks to complete this.and for the most part 2 of those were on limited smoking or none.

Ken, please don't be hurt by my time away. You know that I have some issues I am working on and need to concentrate on that. I've also been diagnosed with an underactive thyroid, which has kept me sleeping when I am not at work. The Synthroid is not working yet, or may not be at the right dosage yet.

I can't even remember our last PM as I have to erase them all as I get them now, due to an issue.

Ken, please don't be hurt by my time away. You know that I have some issues I am working on and need to concentrate on that. I've also been diagnosed with an underactive thyroid, which has kept me sleeping when I am not at work. The Synthroid is not working yet, or may not be at the right dosage yet.

I can't even remember our last PM as I have to erase them all as I get them now, due to an issue.

OK:D I can be good with this, my last one had a thought provoking comment in it and I thought,hmm, maybe I asked the wrong thing?, but I'll consider it a done deal,, thanks for responding, you know youmean a lot to me..

Take care of that problem and GET YOUR BUTT BACK HERE SOON!! :p;)

I'm trying to take care of it Ken, but I don't think it's going to go away that easily.

Hey, Ken.
Sorry I've been away. Huge amount of work, friend with cancer... :(
How is your quit smoking plan going? You haven't posted here for a while, so I wondered if you got stuck. But then again, maybe you are doing great?

J_9, I don't know what is happening in your life, but sorry it is very hard. Best wishes,
asking

I reacted to the? Adhesive or to the actual nicotine in the patches, someone has suggested the shot(I don't know if I can get it or not), but I haven't lost the battle yet,, I still smoke,some,but not like I used to(at least on my days off:( )

My manic phase is in right now,has been for a little while, makes all things a little different.Therapy is a weekly thing anymore, the Med Doc is playing with a few changes, mostly the Ativan,I need to calm down,more so right now.

ANYWAY!!

With all this going on I did have a very good discussion with a few long term members, over illegal drugs... it was real entertaining:)

A friend and I went to visit KBC last Sunday afternoon.

Wow! You should see what than man can build! :)

J_9, I saw the chairs! They're really cool!

I reacted to the ?? adhesive or to the actual nicotine in the patches,,someone has suggested the shot(I don't know if I can get it or not),,but I haven't lost the battle yet,,,I still smoke,some,but not like I used to(at least on my days off:( )

My manic phase is in right now,has been for a little while,,makes all things a little different.Therapy is a weekly thing anymore,,the Med Doc is playing with a few changes,,mostly the Ativan,I need to calm down,more so right now.

ANYWAY!!!

With all this going on I did have a very good discussion with a few long term members,,over illegal drugs...it was real entertaining:)

Too bad about the adhesive. But Fabulous! That you are smoking less. If you are up for it, you can continue to taper a little, a little even without an aid. That's what I did with the methadone. Tough but a doable grind. I can't believe it's been 18 months now. Glad at least you are not depressed and sounds like you are up to go things.

Clough, I am not at all surprised that Ken makes amazing things!

I will check out the thread on illegal drugs.

Cheers,
asking

Yes, KBC a.k.a Ken, really has made some amazing things!

My friend and I were witness to what he's done when doing construction on a barn that's been converted to a residence - tables, chairs, walls, flooring, cabinetry...

His attitude and accomplishments are an inspiration!

He's my friend and I sure wish that he was my neighbor! :)

Yes, KBC a.k.a Ken, really has made some amazing things!

My friend and I were witness to what he's done when doing construction on a barn that's been converted to a residence - tables, chairs, walls, flooring, cabinetry...

His attitude and accomplishments are an inspiration!

He's my friend and I sure wish that he was my neighbor! :)

:o Aww,shucks Clough,, :D

It ain't nothing anyone else couldn't do, with the right tools and willingness,anything is possible:)

I was given a really interesting article to read about smoking and major depressive disorders,the speculated research says that smoking might be an 'antidepressant' all by itself.. and for those with major depression histories may have symptoms increase when quitting, the use of SSRI's isn't suggested as much as the medications for SNRI's.

It's my brief summery of this, Researchers Explore Link Between Smoking, Depression ? Psychiatric News (http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/36/23/20.full)

Sometime, I'm going to start a thread about the projects that people have done. I would hope that you'd be willing to post images on it, KBC!

Sounds like a good idea to me,for those who make things, You know the artist is their own worst critic,but perhaps there will be some who'll enjoy sharing.

I was thinking also on the lines of people who also do construction type of work, like building of any kind, landscaping, remodeling, etc.