What do you think of this?


A proposal by a Roman Catholic bishop in the Netherlands that people of all faiths refer to God as "Allah" is not sitting well with the Catholic community.

Tiny Muskens, an outgoing bishop who is retiring in a few weeks from the southern diocese of Breda, said God doesn't care what he is called.

"Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293394,00.html)... What does God care what we call him? It is our problem," Muskens told Dutch television.

"I'm sure his intentions are good but his theology needs a little fine-tuning," said Father Jonathan Morris, a Roman Catholic priest based in Rome. Morris, a news analyst for FOX News Channel, also called the idea impractical.

"Words and names mean things," Morris said. "Referring to God as Allah means something."

Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington, D.C.-based Islamic civil liberties and advocacy group, backs the idea as a way to help interfaith understanding.

"It reinforces the fact that Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God," Hooper told FOXNews.com. "I don't think the name is as important as the belief in God and following God's moral principles. I think that's true for all faiths."

Christians who are Arabic speakers speak of Allah when they speak of God, Hooper added.

"There's not a theological leap to make on the part of Christians," Hooper said.

The Council of Islamic Organizations of Greater Chicago supports the idea.

“I think it will open up doors,” said Janaan Hashim, a spokeswoman for the group representing more than 400,000 Muslim Americans in the Chicago area. “Language is a man-made limitation. I think what God cares about is how we fulfill our purpose in life.”

The nation’s largest Catholic civil rights group says Catholics won't get behind the proposal.

“Bishop Martinus “Tiny” Muskens can pray to “Allah” all he wants, but only addlepated (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/addlepated)Catholics will follow his lead,” Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, said in a statement. “It is not a good sign when members of the Catholic hierarchy indulge in a fawning exchange with Muslims, or those of any other religion.”

Muskens spent eight years in Indonesia, where he said priests used the word "Allah" during Mass.

Muskens also has drawn attention for other ideas such as encouraging the hungry to steal bread and offering condoms to combat HIV and AIDS.

FOXNews.com's Melissa Drosjack and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Is it a theological leap for Christians and Jews to begin calling God Allah? What doors would it open? Anyone for this idea?

Typical Fox News "report". LOL!

I doubt this story has any legs other than locally where it originated. Please, Fox News is not a news network. :rolleyes:

Hello Steve:

I think we should all call God, Moysha.

excon

Typical Fox News "report". LOL!

I doubt this story has any legs other than locally where it originated. Please, Fox News is not a news network. :rolleyes:

Right. So if Fox is the source it's automatically discredited. Try the Melbourne Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22271688-5000117,00.html), Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-seekeraug17,1,4051999.story) or the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/15/AR2007081501531.html), does that change the facts for you?

Those are better sources indeed. Same answer though, it's the kind of stuff you find in Yahoo's Oddly Enough section, local colour that screams for attention. There is a cat in my neighbourhood that is yellow and green, I may send the info to the media.

On the side issue that's broken off here: All the big news people are the same. They report the news with their own slant. Fox is no worse than CNN, MSNBC, etc.

On the OP, I as a Catholic Christian have no problem calling God Allah when I'm speaking to a Muslim.

God has a variety of "valid" names, including Allah, but we should not make it a general rule that we call Him that.

Tiny Muskens, an outgoing bishop who is retiring in a few weeks from the southern diocese of Breda, said God doesn't care what he is called.

Tiny ? What a fitting name !

The surrender of Breda first occurred in 1625 when the Dutch governor surrendered to the Spanish . It is of interest to us in the US because a group of Protestants seeking religious freedom and to escape the winds of war left Holland to go to the New World . We call them Pilgrims.

I guess this bishop is ushering in the 2nd surrender of Breda .

The long march towards dhimminitude continues . In a short time I suspect that everyone in the Netherlands will be calling God Allah whether they want to or not.

This is a time for Pope Benedict XVI to come out with one of his strong controversial directives;explaining Catholic doctrine , and smack Tiny Muskens down a peg.

Those are better sources indeed. Same answer though, it's the kind of stuff you find in Yahoo's Oddly Enough section, local colour that screams for atention. There is a cat in my neighbourhood that is yellow and green, I may send the info to the media.

NK, that's just plain silly, what makes those "better sources", and if they are "better sources" why would they stake their credibility on reporting some "oddly enough" story that's gained the attention and approval of the Council on American-Islamic Relations? You can dismiss it all you want - but this is no laughing matter.

I don't think it will have the 'legs' required to garner a following that would have christians worlwide either requesting this change or condeming him as a heretic.

Here's my 2 cents-

Just because someone calls God Allah, he does not become a muslim, as stated some Arabs whether Christian or other faiths use the same term in their everyday language when referring to God.
As Fr.Chuck had said in another post that Allah is also referred to a moon God by some people.

Being a muslim is totally different in that it is total submission to the One and Only Creator we refer to as Allah.
We muslims do not see anything changing just by this change in God's name by Christians or Jews as we already believe all monotheistic faiths were in the beginning pure monotheism,but attaching partners to Allah saying He begot a son/daughter etc is what we do not accept.

On the side issue that's broken off here: All the big news people are the same. They report the news with their own slant. Fox is no worse than CNN, MSNBC, etc.

On the OP, I as a Catholic Christian have no problem calling God Allah when I'm speaking to a Muslim.

God has a variety of "valid" names, including Allah, but we should not make it a general rule that we call Him that.

Thanks Rick, I agree on the news comment, and true, Allah is essentially the Arabic term for God. But, I'm not just concerned about the theological difficulties of this bishop's suggestion.

Tiny ? What a fitting name !

The surrender of Breda first occurred in 1625 when the Dutch governor surrendered to the Spanish . It is of interest to us in the US because a group of Protestants seeking religious freedom and to escape the winds of war left Holland to go to the New World . We call them Pilgrims.

I guess this bishop is ushering in the 2nd surrender of Breda .

The long march towards dhimminitude continues . In a short time I suspect that everyone in the Netherlands will be calling God Allah whether they want to or not.

This is a time for Pope Benedict XVI to come out with one of his strong controversial directives;explaining Catholic doctrine , and smack Tiny Muskens down a peg.

So far you seem to be the only one that gets the significance of Tiny's suggestion. I knew you would though.

So far you seem to be the only one that gets the significance of Tiny's suggestion. I knew you would though.Well you guys do PM and email each other so it's no big stretch there. ;)

Well you guys do PM and email each other so it's no big stretch there. ;)

And again, why would that matter? Tom gets it and you apparently don't - neither is a surprise to me. :D

I was not aware that private messages could be accessed by others not involved in the exchange. Interesting..


So NK ;what do you think of my selections in the fantasy football draft ?

So NK ;what do you think of my selections in the fantasy football draft ?N.O. Not sure this is their year.

Steve ;what I don't get is when did they start calling them Muskins ?

Comments on this post
speechlesstx agrees: Thanks firm, I respect your input. I'm surious though, how would Muslims respond to Christians asking them to call God say, Jehovah?

I was being serious speechlesstx,:)
I do not think muslims will take it lightly if we are asked to call Allah as Jehovah, as we have been asked pointedly to call God(in the Quran), with the best of names(like the Most Merciful etc) and the main name mentioned is Allah.

So I am sure muslims will argue and not take to this new trend anyone wishes to impose.

Correct me if I am wrong but is Jehovah a name used for Christ?
If so then this would be even worse for muslims as this would mean using a name of Jesus(peace be upon him) as Allahs name.

Jehovah is a name for God in the Old Testament . It is a strange suggestion by a Catholic priest to make this suggestion .

The Catholic creed;with the name Allah substituted for God reads (1st paragraph) :

I believe in Allah, the Father Almighty,
The Creator of heaven and earth,
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord

Now right there is a fundamental irreconcilable disagreement . How does changing the name God to Allah solve that issue ?

Somehow this sounds a lot like submission to me .

Comments on this post
speechlesstx agrees: Thanks firm, I respect your input. I'm surious though, how would Muslims respond to Christians asking them to call God say, Jehovah?

I was being serious speechlesstx,:)
I do not think muslims will take it lightly if we are asked to call Allah as Jehovah, as we have been asked pointedly to call God(in the Quran), with the best of names(like the Most Merciful etc) and the main name mentioned is Allah.

So I am sure muslims will argue and not take to this new trend anyone wishes to impose.

Correct me if I am wrong but is Jehovah a name used for Christ?
If so then this would be even worse for muslims as this would mean using a name of Jesus(peace be upon him) as Allahs name.

Firm, that was a typo, it should have said "curious" - and your answer is not unexpected :)

This entry on Jehovah (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08329a.htm) in the Catholic Encyclopedia should help in understanding the Christian view.

Steve ;what I don't get is when did they start calling them Muskins ?

Sounds like a possible new name for the Washington Redskins :D

Jehovah is a name for God in the Old Testament . It is a strange suggestion by a Catholic priest to make this suggestion .

The Catholic creed;with the name Allah substituted for God reads (1st paragraph) :

I believe in Allah, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord

Now right there is a fundamental irreconcilable disagreement . How does changing the name God to Allah solve that issue ?

Somehow this sounds alot like submission to me .

According to Kathleen Parker (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KathleenParker/2007/08/17/oh,_allah,_wont_you_buy_me_a_mercedes_benz), Tiny "predicted that, eventually, Allah will be the word."

Are they trying to form a new religion "Muskins" or is it supposed to create harmony (which I doubt), or maybe they are looking for a way to create more friction between the monotheistic religions by confusing the truth?!

Why cannot they leave things well enough alone. I am happy calling to Allah in my prayers and I do not need to use the word Jehovah, the same goes for the other religions involved... unless one of them wishes to come over to Islam.:)

My friend that has a degree in Islamic studies says Allah is another name for Baal, not God.

My friend that has a degree in Islamic studies says Allah is another name for Baal, not God.

And what is Baal, may I ask?

Baal was a pagan god worshiped by Israel's neighbors.

After all this, I'd love to see
1) what Bishop Muskins really said - and in context, and
2) whether his superior(s) has commented.

Baal was a pagan god worshiped by Israel's neighbors.

Allah (Arabic: الله, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for "God". The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God.[1] Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[2]The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[3] In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

After all this, I'd love to see
1) what Bishop Muskins really said - and in context, and
2) whether his superior(s) has commented.

I've been looking for it in context. There are more hits every few hours so it's bound to show up somewhere.

Praetorium.org » Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah' (http://www.praetorium.org/archives/223)
TheRealityCheck.Org - Staff Writer for The New Media Alliance (http://www.therealitycheck.org/StaffWriter/bparks081907a.htm)
Benelux Religion News - Media Monitoring Service by EIN News (http://www.einnews.com/benelux/newsfeed-benelux-religion)
Religion Roundup from the Eyewitness News Newsroom (http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/relnews.shtml)
Speechless maybe this link could shed some light

Praetorium.org » Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God ‘Allah’ (http://www.praetorium.org/archives/223)
Speechless maybe this link could shed some light

Thanks firm, closest I've found is the original report from Radio Netherlands (http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/ned070814mc). If anyone knows Dutch perhaps they can find the transcript from the Dutch TV show "Network" and enlighten us.

God Himself tells us what his name is. True, we don't have the exact pronunciation, but out of respect for God's clear instructions concerning the Tetagrammeton, we should attempt approximations based on it. That is the respectful and scriptural way to proceed.

Exodus 3:15
And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Darby Translation


Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalm 68:4
Sing unto God, sing praises to His name! Extol Him that rideth upon the heavens by His name Jehovah; and rejoice before Him.

Psalm 83:18
That men may know that Thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid; for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; He also has become my salvation."

Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength.

21st century King James Version

BTW

In my opinion Yahweh.. . is also an acceptable choice

Allah is a moon god.

Tom saw this one and commented on it at AW. There are many who think that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are the same. Poor deluded fools, but it is Catholic rhetoric that the Muslims are true believers so this fellow is just mouthing the Catholic line. I like the line above in speechless response, we have a snow ball's chance in hell that the Muslims would call God Jehovah and certainly not Jesus.

Allah is the name of the arabian moon God, so Christians should not associate the name of god with this lesser deity

Allah is a moon god.

Allah is the name of the arabian moon God

Toms777 and paraclete
As I already previously answered Labman's question... :)

":Originally Posted by labman
Baal was a pagan god worshiped by Israel's neighbors."

Allah (Arabic: الله, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for "God". The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God.[1] Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[2]The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[3] In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah"

Where did the name Brian come into things??

Where did the name Brian come into things???

I know who he is but where is Brian mentioned?

Where did the name Brian come into things???

Not sure why you would introduce Brian into this topic, however Brian was the name of a famous Irish king about one thousand years ago. Brian B'oru Ard-ri of Ireland defeated the Danes, Vikings and Normans at Clontaff Good Friday 1014AD freeing Ireland from their oppresssion. In this famous battle Brian called upon God and slew the leader of the Vikings in single combat

Firmbeliever I utterly refute you're statements which I assume are made of ignorance even if you think wikipedia has some authority, which it does not.
Allah - the Moon God

The religion of Islam has as its focus of worship a deity by the name of "Allah." The Muslims claim that Allah in pre-Islamic times was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The issue is thus one of continuity. Was "Allah" the biblical God or a pagan god in Arabia during pre- Islamic times? The Muslim's claim of continuity is essential to their attempt to convert Jews and Christians for if "Allah" is part of the flow of divine revelation in Scripture, then it is the next step in biblical religion. Thus we should all become Muslims. But, on the other hand, if Allah was a pre- Islamic pagan deity, then its core claim is refuted. Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.

The reader must know that Ismael was a Hebrew.

Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most wide-spread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. In the first literate civilization, the Sumerians have left us thousands of clay tablets in which they described their religious beliefs. As demonstrated by Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshipped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Given the amount of artifacts concerning the worship of this Moon-god, it is clear that this was the dominant religion in Sumeria. The cult of the Moon-god was the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia.
In ancient Syria and Canna, the Moon-god Sin was usually represented by the moon in its crescent phase. At times the full moon was placed inside the crescent moon to emphasize all the phases of the moon. The sun-goddess was the wife of Sin and the stars were their daughters. For example, Istar was a daughter of Sin. Sacrifices to the Moon-god are described in the Pas Shamra texts. In the Ugaritic texts, the Moon-god was sometimes called Kusuh. In Persia, as well as in Egypt, the Moon- god is depicted on wall murals and on the heads of statues. He was the Judge of men and gods. The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (see: Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kngs. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.) When Israel fell into idolatry, it was usually the cult of the Moon-god. As a matter of fact, everywhere in the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon inlaid on its forehead with shells. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time.

A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are displayed in the British Museum to this day. Harran was likewise noted for its devotion to the Moon-god. In the 1950's a major temple to the Moon-god was excavated at Hazer in Palestine. Two idols of the moon god were found. Each was a stature of a man sitting upon a throne with a crescent moon carved on his chest . The accompanying inscriptions make it clear that these were idols of the Moon-god. Several smaller statues were also found which were identified by their inscriptions as the "daughters" of the Moon-god. What about Arabia? As pointed out by Prof. Coon, "Muslims are notoriously loath to preserve traditions of earlier paganism and like to garble what pre-Islamic history they permit to survive in anachronistic terms."

During the nineteenth century, Amaud, Halevy and Glaser went to Southern Arabia and dug up thousands of Sabean, Minaean, and Qatabanian inscriptions which were subsequently translated. In the 1940's, the archeologists G. Caton Thompson and Carleton S. Coon made some amazing discoveries in Arabia. During the 1950's, Wendell Phillips, W.F. Albright, Richard Bower and others excavated sites at Qataban, Timna, and Marib (the ancient capital of Sheba). Thousands of inscriptions from walls and rocks in Northern Arabia have also been collected. Reliefs and votive bowls used in worship of the "daughters of Allah" have also been discovered. The three daughters, al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat are sometimes depicted together with Allah the Moon-god represented by a crescent moon above them. The archeological evidence demonstrates that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god.

In Old Testament times, Nabonidus (555-539 BC), the last king of Babylon, built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's stellar religion has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various variations." Many scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sinai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc. When the popularity of the Moon-god waned elsewhere, the Arabs remained true to their conviction that the Moon-god was the greatest of all gods. While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god.

This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. This was later confirmed by other well-known archeologists.

The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al- ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times.

The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Prof. Coon goes on to say, "Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."

This fact answers the questions, "Why is Allah never defined in the Qur'an? Why did Muhammad assume that the pagan Arabs already knew who Allah was?" Muhammad was raised in the religion of the Moon-god Allah. But he went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed that Allah, i.e. the Moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god.

In effect he said, "Look, you already believe that the Moon-god Allah is the greatest of all gods. All I want you to do is to accept that the idea that he is the only god. I am not taking away the Allah you already worship. I am only taking away his wife and his daughters and all the other gods." This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e. he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context?
Al-Kindi, one of the early Christian apologists against Islam, pointed out that Islam and its god Allah did not come from the Bible but from the paganism of the Sabeans. They did not worship the God of the Bible but the Moon-god and his daughters al-Uzza, al-Lat and Manat. Dr. Newman concludes his study of the early Christian-Muslim debates by stating, "Islam proved itself to be...a separate and antagonistic religion which had sprung up from idolatry." Islamic scholar Caesar Farah concluded "There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews." The Arabs worshipped the Moon-god as a supreme deity. But this was not biblical monotheism. While the Moon-god was greater than all other gods and goddesses, this was still a polytheistic pantheon of deities. Now that we have the actual idols of the Moon-god, it is no longer possible to avoid the fact that Allah was a pagan god in pre-Islamic times. Is it any wonder then that the symbol of Islam is the crescent moon? That a crescent moon sits on top of their mosques and minarets? That a crescent moon is found on the flags of Islamic nations? That the Muslims fast during the month which begins and ends with the appearance of the crescent moon in the sky?




Any Christian person who says that Allah and YHWH are the same is a heretic and Christian who says Jesus and Allah are the same is a heretic. Thus by your words the RCC is a heratic Church

................................Is it any wonder then that the symbol of Islam is the crescent moon? That a crescent moon sits on top of their mosques and minarets? That a crescent moon is found on the flags of Islamic nations? That the Muslims fast during the month which begins and ends with the appearance of the crescent moon in the sky?

I would just like to tell you that it is very rude of you to say that I am ignorant of my own religion. To assume that I worship the moon which is only a planet among many which rises and sets by the will of Allah shows more about your lack of knowledge than mine.

The crescent moon on the flags,on top of mosques was not practiced during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), it was started much later and has nothing to do with the original religion of Islam.

And we do not worship the Moon,however much you think we do.We worship the Creator of everything in this universe and beyond.
And for your information it is not just the fasting month we start with the new moon,each month begins when we see the new moon,and that is only used as a time frame,not to worship the moon.

And for your information,it does not matter to me whether Christians or Jews convert to Islam,but whenever they do it just shows that they believe in the One and True God and accept His will and submit to Him.It is no concern for me as I am answerable to Allah for my own deed good or bad.

Ok,so archaeologists have discovered information and evidence of a moon god so what?It does not necessarily make it the god of Muslims.
And I wonder if it is the moon God we worship,why does the Quran have so much scientific points for us to ponder on and why does the Quran ask us to learn the sciences to understand the creations of God ,why does it not say that it is the moon which is responsible for everything we see on earth.
And why do Muslims turn and bow down to the same direction wherever we are instead of looking up to the moon when we pray?
About Mecca being built as a shrine for moon God,the foundation was laid by Abraham(alaihi salaam), but as the people lived on and generation after generation went astray they used the Kaaba as a pilgrim point to earn money by keeping false deities.

And the question you included, ""Why is Allah never defined in the Qur'an? Why did Muhammad assume that the pagan Arabs already knew who Allah was?" "

Quran chapter 112
Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allâh, (the) One.
"Allâh-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks)."He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
---------------------------------
La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah
(None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)
Shahada has three aspects: A, B, and C
A To be a muslim is to pledge the above covenant with Allah, the Creator of the heavens and earth, the Ruler of all that exists, the Lord of Majesty and Highness, stating La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad -ur-Rasool-Allah, but first one must understand what this means.

Muttaqun OnLine - Shahada: Confession of a Muslim (http://muttaqun.com/shahada.html)
-----------------------------------------

"When Israel fell into idolatry, it was usually the cult of the Moon-god. As a matter of fact, everywhere in the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon inlaid on its forehead with shells. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period."

The above points (you stated in your post)just show that some people went against the teaching of monotheism and practiced worship to false gods,not the fact that muslims worship a moon god.

Is an opinion. To which ever name you call GOD is OK since we have different language and NO... one is willing to accept the other. All GOD name in difft language means the same name to ALLAH and we respect it hat way.

And for your information,it does not matter to me whether Christians or Jews convert to Islam,but whenever they do it just shows that they believe in the One and True God and accept His will and submit to Him.It is no concern for me as I am answerable to Allah for my own deed good or bad.



Firm, I have no doubt that you're well grounded in Islam. Currently I spend most of my time on the politics board, but for those who don't know of me from years past and my background, I was born to a Gentile father and a Jewish mother. I think it's good to hear from your perspective and now that I have, I'm going to comment on your remark. Now of the very very few Jews that have ever strayed outside of Judaism to study Islam and to practice the traditions and rituals, they never stopped being Jews no matter what Islam teaches or identity the individual may think of themselves. It's impossible for a born Jew to convert since being Jewish is more than just a Faith. As for the "One True G-d," if a Jew or Christian for that matter, is truly immersed in their respected Faiths they'd have absolutely no reason ever to practice Islam. We are all answerable to our Creator.



Bobby

Tom saw this one and commented on it at AW. There are many who think that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are the same. Poor deluded fools, but it is Catholic rhetoric that the Muslims are true believers so this fellow is just mouthing the Catholic line. I like the line above in speechless response, we have a snow ball's chance in hell that the Muslims would call God Jehovah and certainly not Jesus.

Allah is the name of the arabian moon God, so Christians should not associate the name of god with this lesser diety

There is no lesser deity. You polytheists are wrong.

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God[is one LORD (NIV)


Tom

Firm, I have no doubt that you're well grounded in Islam. Currently I spend most of my time on the politics board, but for those who don't know of me from years past and my background, I was born to a Gentile father and a Jewish mother. I think it's good to hear from your perspective and now that I have, I'm going to comment on your remark.
Now of the very very few Jews that have ever strayed outside of Judaism to study Islam and to practice the traditions and rituals, they never stopped being Jews no matter what Islam teaches or identity the individual may think of themselves. It's impossible for a born Jew to convert since being Jewish is more than just a Faith. As for the "One True G-d," if a Jew or Christian for that matter, is truly immersed in their respected Faiths they'd have absolutely no reason ever to practice Islam. We are all answerable to our Creator.



Bobby

The thing is that Islam has the best of Jewish faith too as we believe in the Torah(Taurat) revealed to Moses(alaihi salaam) and that the Quran contains similar teachings of monotheism and we believe in the commandments sent to Moses(alaihi salaam).

And Islam is also more than a faith, it is a way of life too.It just shows that the roots are the same, Abraham ,Noah,Moses,Jesus and the final Prophet and messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all).

And being Islam just means total submission to the One true God and believing in all the messengers and the final messenger and Prophet.The Quran is considered the final revelation hence I have seen quite a number of Christians and I have read testimonies of Jews who have reverted to Islam as they found that Islam has the best of the Chrisitian and Jewish faiths and being a muslim does not mean we stop believing in the original books like the Injeel and Taurat.

Recently I have read of a Rabbi in Jerusalem who reverted to Islam.:)
http://www.convertstoislam.com/Stories/rabbi.html
http://change2islam.blogspot.com/2007/07/former-rabbi-embraces-islam.html

Firmbeliever you remind me of myself, both of us have firm beliefs and nothing will change us to believe something else, you believe in Allah as god and I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord :)

Firmbeliever you remind me of myself, both of us have firm beliefs and nothing will change us to believe something else, you believe in Allah as god and i believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord :)

Your are right Marily, but I am 100% sure I am right, even if I cannot prove to you I am...
So lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.. :)

The thing is that Islam has the best of Jewish faith too as we believe in the Torah(Taurat) revealed to Moses(alaihi salaam) and that the Quran contains similar teachings of monotheism and we believe in the commandments sent to Moses(alaihi salaam).

And Islam is also more than a faith, it is a way of life too.It just shows that the roots are the same, Abraham ,Noah,Moses,Jesus and the final Prophet and messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them all).

And being Islam just means total submission to the One true God and believing in all the messengers and the final messenger and Prophet.The Quran is considered the final revelation hence I have seen quite a number of Christians and I have read testimonies of Jews who have reverted to Islam as they found that Islam has the best of the Chrisitian and Jewish faiths and being a muslim does not mean we stop believing in the original books like the Injeel and Taurat.

Recently I have read of a Rabbi in Jerusalem who reverted to Islam.:)
Rabbi's Conversion Story - Meeting Place for Reverts/Converts To Islam (http://www.convertstoislam.com/Stories/rabbi.html)
Revert to Islam: A former Rabbi embraces Islam (http://change2islam.blogspot.com/2007/07/former-rabbi-embraces-islam.html)


I disagree. Judaism has the best of the Jewish Faith. Christianity has the best of the Christian Faith. Islam has the best of the Muslim Faith. All three major Faiths have some shared elements of similarity. Again it's impossible for any born Jew to revert or convert Islam. Muhammed took some of the basic teachings from studying the Torah, however he then went his own direction. Another thing is that Jesus is not just a prophet to Christians, therefore Islam is insufficient to their Christian messianic theology.



Bobby

If God didn't care what God is called then why did Jesus give us a prayer that says " “hallowed be Thy name”??

Was that name "GOD" or something else?


Tom

What do you think of this?



Is it a theological leap for Christians and Jews to begin calling God Allah? What doors would it open? Anyone for this idea?
I've called my son Rich all his life. It's not likely I will ever call him anything but that name. I've called God God all my life so it's not likely I will ever call him anything other than what I know him as... God.

Why do we have to put up with Islamic apologetics on the Christianity Board. The veiw of Christianity is that Muslims are deceived and have followed a different Gospel, one which has led them into a regime of works. Jesus specifically taught against those who would bring a different Gospel

I think a major point is being missed here.

"What does God care what we call him? It is our problem,"

If God doesn't care what we call Him, why should Muskins? Why would he push for a common name, against the will and teachings of two of the three major world religions?

Seems to me that another agenda is at work here, and Muskins has disguised it rather poorly indeed.

I think a major point is being missed here.

"What does God care what we call him? It is our problem,"

If God doesn't care what we call Him, why should Muskins? Why would he push for a common name, against the will and teachings of two of the three major world religions?

Seems to me that another agenda is at work here, and Muskins has disguised it rather poorly indeed.

Thanks Dennis. There is an agenda at work here, whether Muskens has disguised it or unwittingly become a part of that agenda I'm not sure. Either way there is good reason to object to his proposition if you ask me.

What do you think of this?



Is it a theological leap for Christians and Jews to begin calling God Allah? What doors would it open? Anyone for this idea?
What doors would it open?

Well let’s see.
Since we have all these “Christians” that are coming together under one banner, WCC, WEA etc, so as to blend the so called PRO-TEST-ANTS, that are no longer protesting anything that they once did but are joining hands with that church that they once protested against.
I see that they for the most part would have no real problem with this “Allah” thing.

It is just more of the world joining hands and no longer being separate unto the One True God.

As for my house and me we will follow Jehovah and not the son of perdition.

Peace and Grace
David