I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?

Nope, if you can't see the facts by looking at God's creation, there is no hope for you.

Nope, if you can't see the facts by looking at God's creation, there is no hope for you.

I agree with the first implication: The Universe, our Earth and even a simple plant seem designed to me. I think it is perfectly logical to see intelligent design in the complexities that we live amongst.

I cannot agree with the 2nd part. No one is without the possibility (aka hope) of seeing this reality.

I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?

Worthbeads,
As you have said you are a person of reason and hard facts,
What have you come up with in explanation for the whole universe running like clockwork?
And in the universe I include every living thing that exists, the known and the unknown to us,in water,in oceans,in the land,in the air.
I also would like a scientific explanation for the fact that earth is protected by layers of atmosphere.
The earths core is molten lava and yet unless a volcanic eruption occurrs we are relatively safe from the heat of the core.
Each flower that exists is pollinated at different times,by different methods,by different mediums that already exist on earth, how do you give an explanation to how perfectly this is carried out?

I am not asking to start an argument or to provoke you.
These are just some questions for you to ponder as you think about choosing to believe or not.

At least you have not discarded one for the other withour a thought, you wish to know and you wish to believe, but with proof (maybe to ease yourself,or to explain to others why you believe)
Believing in the Almighty does not mean that you have to give up reason and facts.It just means that reason and proof will lead you to the Almighty if you really look,learn and use your intelligence.:)

Here is a link to Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God. Check it out, I think it's a good read.

Apologetics.com: Challenging Believers to Think and Thinkers to Believe (http://apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/theistic_apologetics/kreeft-arguments.html)

Worth, just for my own curiosity, why do you "want to believe in God"?

To me that seems like an absurd thing to say.

Worthbeads,
As you have said you are a person of reason and hard facts,
what have you come up with in explanation for the whole universe running like clockwork?
And in the universe I include every living thing that exists, the known and the unknown to us,in water,in oceans,in the land,in the air.
I also would like a scientific explanation for the fact that earth is protected by layers of atmosphere.
The earths core is molten lava and yet unless a volcanic eruption occurrs we are relatively safe from the heat of the core.
Each flower that exists is pollinated at different times,by different methods,by different mediums that already exist on earth, how do you give an explanation to how perfectly this is carried out?

I am not asking to start an arguement or to provoke you.
These are just some questions for you to ponder as you think about choosing to believe or not.

At least you have not discarded one for the other withour a thought, you wish to know and you wish to believe, but with proof (maybe to ease yourself,or to explain to others why you believe)
Believing in the Almighty does not mean that you have to give up reason and facts.It just means that reason and proof will lead you to the Almighty if you really look,learn and use your intelligence.:)

All of those things can be explained with Science.

I want to believe in God and a heaven so my soul will live on.

That doesn't make sense to me worth, if your soul is going to live on, it will live on regardless of your belief, similarly if souls do not live on, they will do so regardless of your belief.

Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.

I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?
Ok well think of god like this: whenever you feel the wind blowing it's there. You know it is and you believe that it is even though you can't see it, it's pretty much the same thing about god. I suggest you get a New King James Version Bible. Read some of and if you don't understand it then go to a person who does have one. If anyone tells you that its just a stupid book they're wrong and everything that happens and will happen is true no matter what. So please take my advice I wouldn't steer you to the wronge path!

Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.

If you're worried about burning in hell for eternity because of your current lack of faith, then fix it. "Find" your faith. Accept Jesus into your heart as your personal savior, repent, have a personal relationship with god, go to church, pray, read the bible, teach others the bible - immerse yourself. Then you can be "saved".

If that sounds like too much work (or a load of hooey), carry on being a heathen and don't worry about where your soul is going for eternity because you don't have one anyway.

Oh, for the first option you also have to hope that you picked the "right" religion... because if not, well, off to hell for you!

That seems a bit weird to me, why would you get sent to heaven if the only reason for believing was to avoid hell?

You have to study and figure out the great questions of existence for yourself! :)

There are a huge number of books available to you regarding spirituality, god and the meaning of life. IT IS A LIFETIME STUDY. Not intense, but relaxed when study is needed. Never forget that you need to **live** in order to have subject matter to think about in relation to the great questions! It is not for everyone, for some, prepackaged answers-called religion suit them.

There is no proof that there is a supernatural inhabited by entities like devils, gods, imps, and so on. Belief in a supernatural is called **faith** because there is no proof whatsoever. People are called believers; they have faith and derive a lot of comfort from their beliefs.

So, go out and live and learn!

Love Life!

All of those things can be explained with Science.

I want to believe in God and a heaven so my soul will live on.

Worthbeads,
How can you separate the Almighty and science.Science just explains(tries to explain) the Almighty's creations, which does not mean that Almighty is out of the picture whenever science comes into it.

I cannot separate one from the other.
For me science sheds light on the creations and highlights the Creators work, so that we could understand the complexity of our existence yet the simpleness of our being!

Something's cannot be fully explained by science as the human knowledge is somewhat limited.
Science cannot explain death, death certificates mention the reason of death under normal circumstances as heart failure,but they cannot explain what happens after death.
Science can explain the process of reproduction,but the miracle is that one tiny cell contains all the information needed to become a fully grown human, living and growing inside the mother till birth.
For me Faith and belief is understanding science to know the Creator and to believe in His handiwork and my soul finds the path to peace.:)

Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.




Torture wasn't what Adam was told would happen to him if he sinned. Death, the condition he had been in prior to being created was what would happen to him.

Genesis 2: 16
16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

NWT



If indeed torture was to be administered for whatever twisted reason, because I can't conceive of any other reason to torture someone for all eternity except a twisted one, then Adam would have been told so that he could make an INFORMED choice.

Torture is considered a cruel, inhumane, and degrading punishment and is outlawed by the United Nations. Those are the moral standards that all civilized creatures are expected to follow. Entities or creatures or humans who can reason and employ torture as punishment are considered barbarians and are liable to receive judicial retribution. THAT ALONE SHOULD BE ENOUGH TO CONVINCE US THAT THE HELLFIRE INTERPRETATION IS THE WRONG ONE. But unfortunately it is still alive and thriving and poses an insult to the very holy character of God. Which, of course, is what its author designed it for.

Excerpt:

Torture is a serious violation of human rights and is strictly prohibited by international law. As the use of torture strikes at the very heart of civil and political freedoms, it was one of the first issues dealt with by the United Nations (UN) in its development of human rights standards.

Human Rights Learning Centre: Study Guide on Torture, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment (http://www.hrea.org/learn/guides/torture.html)

Last time I checked God was not a member of the UN and most likely cares little what the UN decides.

Mans ideas are just that, and in the end, what God says and does is right because it is his will and judgement. And it does not matter what man wants. And of course non beleivers will always say that hell is wrong because they can not admitor accept that is their fate.

That seems a bit weird to me, why would you get sent to heaven if the only reason for believing was to avoid hell?

Why is there religion? Do most people want just to be a better person, or do they want to go to heaven?

Worthbeads,
How can you seperate the Almighty and science.Science just explains(tries to explain) the Almighty's creations, which does not mean that Almighty is out of the picture whenever science comes into it.

I cannot seperate one from the other.
For me science sheds light on the creations and highlights the Creators work, so that we could understand the complexity of our existence yet the simpleness of our being!

Somethings cannot be fully explained by science as the human knowledge is somewhat limited.
Science cannot explain death, death certificates mention the reason of death under normal circumstances as heart failure,but they cannot explain what happens after death.
Science can explain the process of reproduction,but the miracle is that one tiny cell contains all the information needed to become a fully grown human, living and growing inside the mother till birth.
For me Faith and belief is understanding science to know the Creator and to believe in His handiwork and my soul finds the path to peace.:)

The way I see it, it looks like science contradicts religion.

Worth, perhaps you should be agnostic. :)

Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism)

You seem to have big doubts about religion, and you've posted this question in the Christianity forum, so I'm guessing you are thinking, "Christian or not?" There are a lot of other religions in this world, and perhaps there is one out there which suits you. Perhaps you are suited to having no religion. Christianity seems to not be it, so why not investigate other religions and see if something "fits"? Or invent your own religion. Or live your life the way you think is most moral and proper and don't worry about it. Religion (organized or otherwise) isn't for everyone. There's no law that says you MUST have a religion, so sit back and don't worry about it so much. You'll figure it out.

Last time I checked God was not a member of the UN and most likely cares little what the UN decides.

Mans ideas are just that, and in the end, what God says and does is right because it is his will and judgement. And it does not matter what man wants. And of course non beleivers will always say that hell is wrong because they can not admitor accept that is thier fate.


So you know my fate based on the fact that I don't believe in a God who punishes via torture? Then you are he?

About UN membership, it isn't required for anyone to agree with its ethical principles. That God doesn't care is simply your opinion which goes 100% contrary to the Bible.

God is not a mysterious entity which keeps his personaity, moral standards, future plans,
And expectations of himself and his creatures a secret as you imply. Neither are his moral statutes beyond our comprehension nor his mental processs so alien to ours that we can
Expect anything and everything from the Him.

Actually, that's why he provided us with the Bible, so that there could be an understanding between us and our creator. So if he indeed appears capable of anything because he appears mysterious and beyond comprehension, it isn't because he hasn't revealed himself as otherwise.


BTW
The reason I replied to the questioner in the manner I did was not because I am seeking debate. It is simply because I feel that he deserves to be told the TRUTH about who God is an from my viewpoint and that of millions of other Christians who don't accept everything which the CC says as sacrosanct, Jehovah God isn't that kind of God..

Actually, the more I think about it, my problem isn't about God, but just religion itself. There are so many religions but only one can be right. What will happen to the people who worship the wrong God? If a person is a good person but picks the wrong religion will they still go to heaven?

Another thing that confuses me is the Christian Bible. To me, some of the things seem far-fetched. An elderly man building an ark while the whole earth floods? Water turning into blood or wine? It all sounds a little crazy to me. How do you even know this even happened?

Does thinking this make me a sinner in God's eyes?

Actually, the more I think about it, my problem isn't about God, but just religion itself. There are so many religions but only one can be right. What will happen to the people who worship the wrong God? If a person is a good person but picks the wrong religion will they still go to heaven?

Worth, even us Christians have issues with religion. If there is a God (and I believe there is) and you want to know Him, He will most certainly introduce Himself. Look around you at the miracle (not the cold hard science) of life. Science can explain cells, DNA and such, but I don't believe it can explain the capacity to reason, love, hate or forgive.


Another thing that confuses me is the Christian Bible. To me, some of the things seem far-fetched. An elderly man building an ark while the whole earth floods? Water turning into blood or wine? It all sounds a little crazy to me. How do you even know this even happened?

Again, if there is a God (and I believe there is), then I think He's big enough to flood the earth and help an old man build a boat. If He can create water He can certainly turn that water into wine.


Does thinking this make me a sinner in God's eyes?

Nope, everyone questions things. Simply put, what makes you a sinner is doing that which you know to be wrong, or not doing what you know to be right. The fact that you appear to be wrestling with your conscience over this suggests you know there is a God, you're just not sure what to do about. You got to believe my friend, you got to believe.

Plenty of people don't take the bible as a literal interpretation. You can look at the bible as a book of stories, not facts. Look at it as symbolism, instead of cold hard truth.

The way I see it, it looks like science contradicts religion.

Mine doesn't!
But sure as speechless explained science is not much help when it comes to emotions except maybe abstract sciences like psychology.. :)

Evolutionary biology explains emotions very well.

Evolutionary biology explains emotions very well.

Then explain it for me, Cap.

I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?
There have been many examples of children automatically having knowledge of God without having been taught and they just seem to believe without question. But unless you saw this with your own eyes with your own child it is no easier to believe in than God is. The only true way of knowing God is to feel his presence in your heart. Once you have felt the overpowering feeling and love you will believe. The problem is how will you get the opportunity to feel this if you do not study religions, go to church, or at least fall on on your knees with some expectation of an answer and pray in earnest for guidance. Obviously, the fact that you would even consider there is a God when you are so logical seems to be proof in itself that there is a nagging little part of yourself that believes already. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should have missionaries in your area that can teach you how to pray with a purpose, and answer may of your questions without being pushy. Couldn't hurt to give them a call.

Well lets take love, love confers a specific bonding between 2 organisms. That bonding is between 2 organisms who either are related or will mate to produce offspring which is then reared by the both of them. Love is very well explained by the evolution of a behavior to protect one's own genes. You also fall in love with people who are genetically superior or well matched to you, which can be found through visual, chemical and behavioural cues. This produces stronger children and ensures the survival of your own genes.

Hate is similar, it is an emotion formed on a subconscious level towards something which is a threat to your genes. It makes it so that when that threat presents itself you can very quickly get fired up in order to combat that threat.

These emotions are very dumbed down in modern human culture, but to me it is plain that these gave an advantage to our ancestors and so would have evolved.

Well lets take love, love confers a specific bonding between 2 organisms. That bonding is between 2 organisms who either are related or will mate to produce offspring which is then reared by the both of them. Love is very well explained by the evolution of a behavior to protect one's own genes. You also fall in love with people who are genetically superior or well matched to you, which can be found through visual, chemical and behavioural cues. This produces stronger children and ensures the survival of your own genes.

Hate is similar, it is an emotion formed on a subconscious level towards somethign which is a threat to your genes. It makes it so that when that threat presents itself you can very quickly get fired up in order to combat that threat.

These emotions are very dumbed down in modern human culture, but to me it is plain that these gave an advantage to our ancestors and so would have evolved.

Thanks for the info, I agree that emotions begin at a chemical level of our bodies,
But as I am not a fan of human evolution theory... :)

Well lets take love, love confers a specific bonding between 2 organisms. That bonding is between 2 organisms who either are related or will mate to produce offspring which is then reared by the both of them. Love is very well explained by the evolution of a behavior to protect one's own genes. You also fall in love with people who are genetically superior or well matched to you, which can be found through visual, chemical and behavioural cues. This produces stronger children and ensures the survival of your own genes.

Hate is similar, it is an emotion formed on a subconscious level towards something which is a threat to your genes. It makes it so that when that threat presents itself you can very quickly get fired up in order to combat that threat.

These emotions are very dumbed down in modern human culture, but to me it is plain that these gave an advantage to our ancestors and so would have evolved.

Cap, pardon me while I chuckle just a little bit. Here, try this wiki entry, it's just as humorous:


For example, the human emotion of love Is proposed to have evolved from paleocircuits of the mammalian brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion#Neurobiological_theories_of_emotion) (specifically, modules of the cingulated gyrus) designed for the care, feeding, and grooming of offspring. Paleocircuits are neural platforms for bodily expression configured millions of years before the advent of cortical circuits for speech. They consist of pre-configured pathways or networks of nerve cells in the forebrain, brain stem and spinal cord. They evolved prior to the earliest mammalian ancestors, as far back as the jawless fishes, to control motor function.

Presumably, before the mammalian brain, life in the non-verbal world was automatic, preconscious, and predictable. The motor centers of reptiles react to sensory cues of vision, sound, touch, chemical, gravity, and motion with pre-set body movements and programmed postures. With the arrival of night-active mammals, circa 180 million years ago, smell replaced vision as the dominant sense, and a different way of responding arose from the olfactory sense, which is proposed to have developed into mammalian emotion and emotional memory. In the Jurassic Period, the mammalian brain invested heavily in olfaction to succeed at night as reptiles slept — one explanation for why olfactory lobes in mammalian brains are proportionally larger than in the reptiles. These odor pathways gradually formed the neural blueprint for what was later to become our limbic brain.

Whatever, leave it to science to reduce human beings to paleocircuits and "neural platforms for bodily expression." How did we evolve into who would be skilled in singing, playing the guitar, writing music or poetry? How did I get the singing gene but not the songwriting gene? Seriously, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Seriously, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because science doesn't think man is the most spectacular thing in the universe. Sure, we're pretty cool, but there are a lot of "pretty cool" things out there. That, and science shows emotions and feelings and people are made up of chemical processes and electrical pulses. I don't get why "intelligent design" seeks to make humans out to be so fantastic. I don't see what is so "intelligent" about our design; we get old, our organs fail, we have birth defects, personality disorders, etc. And the earth? How much of our earth is covered by water we can't drink? Seems to me an "intelligent" creator would have made water a more abundant resource, or made us able to consume fresh and salt water. And what about the creation of Irukandji jellyfish? The thing is 2.5cm in diameter and can kill you. What's "intelligent" about that? But whatever. I think we're getting off topic. :)

firmbeliever agrees: Agree to disagree,each individual organism has its function in nature even if we are not aware of it!

Thanks for the greenie, firm. My point is that many people who tout the "intelligent design" theory will go on and on about how there is perfection in things, when it simply isn't so. And when you point to something that doesn't make sense for the "intelligence" of its design, you get a response like, "Well, god wanted it that way, so he designed it that way" It's never a question of WHY does this thing function as it does, or what purpose does it serve, or what in evolution caused it to be this way - it's always "god did it". Sorry, not god, the "intelligent designer". I still say there's nothing intelligent about human bodies failing at early ages and most of the earth's surface being covered with a substance we can't consume.

Damn! Off topic again! My fault, sorry...

Thanks for the greenie, firm. My point is that many people who tout the "intelligent design" theory will go on and on about how there is perfection in things, when it simply isn't so. And when you point to something that doesn't make sense for the "intelligence" of its design, you get a response like, "Well, god wanted it that way, so he designed it that way" It's never a question of WHY does this thing function as it does, or what purpose does it serve, or what in evolution caused it to be this way - it's always "god did it". Sorry, not god, the "intelligent designer". I still say there's nothing intelligent about human bodies failing at early ages and most of the earth's surface being covered with a substance we can't consume.

Damn! Off topic again! My fault, sorry....

Glad you liked the greenie.
I know its off topic, but we are trying to show Worth that there exists a Creator of all that exists on this universe.
When you really look closely at the creations of the Creator,
The earth(soil) was formed in many years by layers of different substances-some of these substances are coal,diamonds,other carbon products,oil,etc.Who uses all these substances?
Each organism in the sea,are food for each other,cleaners of coral,helps in the growth of certain organisms,even after death the bones of these organisms disintergrate into something that either changes into some product useful for the humans.
Even the tiny organisms that live on our skin and stomachs they too have their function of cleaning up or breaking down etc

Do you see Intelligent design now?

Humans as I believe are sent to earth by the Creator and that everything that naturally on this earth when used well are for the benefit of humans.
I could quote some verses from the Quran in regard to this topic but then we are not discussing Islam here...

Glad you liked the greenie.
I know its off topic, but we are trying to show Worth that there exists a Creator of all that exists on this universe.
When you really look closely at the creations of the Creator,
The earth(soil) was formed in many years by layers of different substances-some of these substances are coal,diamonds,other carbon products,oil,etc.Who uses all these substances?
Each organism in the sea,are food for each other,cleaners of coral,helps in the growth of certain organisms,even after death the bones of these organisms disintergrate into something that either changes into some product useful for the humans.
Even the tiny organisms that live on our skin and stomachs they too have their function of cleaning up or breaking down etc

Do you see Intelligent design now?

Humans as I believe are sent to earth by the Creator and that everything that naturally on this earth when used well are for the benefit of humans.
I could quote some verses from the Quran in regard to this topic but then we are not discussing Islam here....

I'm not saying I don't see how tiny particles relate to bigger particles to make a functioning being or to serve a purpose. I'm just saying I don't think a magic man in the sky put it all here. As I said, many ID theorists argue that there is "perfection" in the design of things, and there's not. There's no such thing as "perfect". And if everything used properly is designed to serve humans, it stands to reason humans should be perfect (if not in behavior at least in design) and we aren't. That's why (well one reason why) for me intelligent design doesn't add up. There are too many faults in the "design" of things that make no sense as to why an "intelligent" being put them there. And again, that goes back to "the designer did it because the designer knows what he's doing" and I don'y buy that line of thinking.

.............. That's why (well one reason why) for me intelligent design doesn't add up. There are too many faults in the "design" of things that make no sense as to why an "intelligent" being put them there. And again.............

As for me I believe that Humans are here for a short time and the Creator is not human nor like any of his created beings.
All things on this earth are for humans(to use,to study and to ponder about) and no, I do not believe humans are perfect,far from it, that's why He (the Creator ) is Most Merciful when it comes to those who asks for forgiveness.

I believe in the Almighty,but I also read,learn and believe in science.As I keep saying believing in one does not mean the other has to be thrown away.
God exists and He cannot be weighed or measured in any scientific measurement,He cannot be cut into pieces and looked into under a microscope,He cannot be put into a petri dish and stored in a freezer or have chemicals added to see any changes.
BUT the things that exist in the earth and sometimes beyond can be scientifically studied, which I believe will ultimately lead to the existence of a Creator.

This is just me,my belief and my faith speaking, which may not be what others see or believe.:)

You guys talking about intelligent design vs>. God made me think of something. If God created us, why aren't we perfect like him? Some might argue it was Adam and Eve's fault for going to the tree, but if that was so, why couldn't God stop them?

As I keep saying believing in one does not mean the other has to be thrown away.


I agree with you here. There are plenty of religious people who embrace science. I think it's a shame when people reject science because it isn't in the bible.

You guys talking about intelligent design vs>. God made me think of something. If God created us, why aren't we perfect like him? Some might argue it was Adam and Eve's fault for going to the tree, but if that was so, why couldn't God stop them?

We are not God or Gods we are just God's (creation).
I do not believe we are sons/children of God either.
It is a weakness in all humans to listen to evil whispers of Satan and that's what happened to Adam and Eve,but the Almighty forgave them when they repented, but were sent to earth as a test to see which of the humans will look,learn and obey the message of the Creator and be thankful.

I have always been confused about religion. I don't know if I believe in God or not. I am a person of reason and hard facts. To me, if I can see it, hear it, or touch it it's real. To me, it just seems like facts against God are more logical than facts for God. I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered. Can anyone give me an logical argument that can semi-prove God's existence?


Lets leave religion out of the question first.
Just the fact that you question the existence of God is a positive step.
That is the first step.

From your other posts, I assume you believe in a life after death, judgement resulting in Heaven or Hell. Other good questions.

I suggest resding the Gospel of John, chapters 3 and 4 especially. Ask questions, that's good.

It takes faith, belief.

It does not take any faith or belief if you can prove 2+2 = 4


I have a graduate biology degree, to me science points to a Creator.
Even the founders of DNA, Watson and Crick, avowed atheist, cannot explain the origin of DNA and the origins of genetic material.
Darwin theorized evolution in an era when microscopes could not identify internal cell structures, so to me, his theory may explain body modifications such as a bird's beak , but it cannot fully prove the origin of life from non-life. No one can.
One can argue it takes more faith to believe in evolution, than in a Creator.

But, again, it takes faith.




Grace and Peace

The way I see it, it looks like science contradicts religion.




I know I am jumping in a little late so please excuse me if I repeat something here.
I want to put in a quote from Ken Ham who explains this much more eloquently than I can.





Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.




So, I don't think that science contradicts religion, but I think that all of us have a different interpretation behind which they stand for various reasons.

Let me put it to you is this way...


Let's say that Jesus is just a big hoax...

You choose to follow him and the teachings of the bible. In doing so you may become a better person, or feel more spiritually complete, and have peace in your heart.
You will still die some day but you will have experienced these great things and you may possibly have lived a much better life as a result. No heaven, no hell, no big deal.

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. no heaven, no hell, no big deal.

Let's say that Jesus is real and the teachings are true.

You choose to follow Him and the teachings of the bible. In doing so you become a better person, feel more spiritually complete, and have peace in your heart.
You will still die some day and spend eternity with Him in heaven.

You choose not to follow Him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die and spend eternity in hell.

So really, if following Jesus completes you spiritually and you become a better person for it and you feel joy in your heart...

What do you have to lose by following Him?
What do you have to lose by not following Him?

Personally, following Christ has made me so much more of a person than I could have become on my own. Not following Him is a risk that I am not willing to make.

I hope you find in your heart that which you seek.


Believing in you,
rudi_in

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.


Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...

I want to believe in God and a heaven so my soul will live on.




I worded that the way I did because it appears as though worthbeads may feel this way. If he chooses to ignore his feelings, he may very well grow old with a sense of unfulfillment or emptiness.





Please. Have you even ever met an atheist? Apparently not...



I have actually met several. I have even met many followers of other faiths as well. I am not so secluded that I have not experienced parts of the world and various people within it.

I have many places yet to go and much to learn but don't sell me so short so soon.

It does not seem fair to assume that I am ignorant in this way based solely on a single response that I gave to someone who shared their feelings.

These are merely some thoughts for worthbeads to consider or not.

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable? The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?

Why is there religion? Do most people want just to be a better person, or do they want to go to heaven?

Here is a website that will answer many questions for you.
All About The Journey & Does God Exist Scientifically? (http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/does-god-exist-scientifically-aatj-1b3e.htm)

I can answer why I believe what I believe in the light of Islam,but then as worthbeads thoughts are on a Christian path, I refrain from quoting from what I believe...

That being said I agree with those saying its takes faith to believe in Science and the Creator together without having a war with our conscience.
If one leaves science and believes only in the Creator,then that makes one very ignorant of the miracles that exist in the universe.
And those who have faith in science and not in the Creator is also missing out... (I believe even if a person does not realise this, the soul yearns to receive guidance, love,be loved and depend on a higher being)

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable? The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?


Off topic, but it reminds me of the Star Trek episode when a pile of mostly carbon based chemicals lay on the floor after these humans were dehydrated.:)



Grace and Peace

(I believe even if a person does not realise this, the soul yearns to receive guidance, love,be loved and depend on a higher being)Yes, children require loving parents to become well adjusted adults who then mate with a similar well adjusted adult to love and be loved. I do not believe in this innate need for higher spiritual power or else every single human being would feel that and that is certainly not the case.

Speech, I believe we have agreed to disagree on this before, why does science seek to reduce man to chemical processes?

Because man is chemical processes. That's why. We are bags of mostly salty water. I know you won't like that description, but that's exactly what we are.

Capuchin, believe me I understand the science of man and I understand and appreciate what that science has done for man, so I'll get to your questions.


Why does religion seek to complicate the observable world with something which is not observable and non-falsifiable?

Religion doesn't seek to complicate the observable world, it is not out to destroy, demonize or dismiss science. Science cannot explain everything in spite of the many presumptuous attempts to do so, neither can religion of course, but they don't have to be incompatible. I admit I can't prove the existence of God, but scientists seems to assume they'll eventually be able to explain everything. How do you reduce a thought down to a series of chemical reactions and electrical impulses? How do you explain falling in love as chemical reactions and survival instinct? These things are so much more profound than reducing it to instinct and chemical processes, and if science can't see that one should wonder just how intelligent these scientists are.


The vast majority of things that we observe can be explained by science (and more will be explained in the future), yet you chuckle when a scientific explanation is put forth. Why?

Like I said, life - especially human life - is so much more profound than paleocircuits and "neural platforms for bodily expression." It devalues mankind, it reduces us to being worth nothing more than a handful of dust, or "salty water" as you put it. Salty water is great for making pasta and taffy, but a human being is worth so much more. We can laugh, love, cry and reason, that is much more than science can ever fully explain.

I have actually met several. I have even met many followers of other faiths as well. I am not so secluded that I have not experienced parts of the world and various people within it.

I have many places yet to go and much to learn but don't sell me so short so soon.

It does not seem fair to assume that I am ignorant in this way based solely on a single response that I gave to someone who shared their feelings.

These are merely some thoughts for worthbeads to consider or not.

rudi, I didn't mean for my comment to sound as rude as it did. I wasn't trying to sell you short, but rather point out the flaw in your logic. You're saying an atheist always has an underlying desire to believe, that they have an emptiness inside them, and frankly, that's just not true. I'm going to go bold here and say every atheist on this site feels quite "full" and does not feel there is something lacking in their life; at least not something that can be filled by belief in god (cause I'd really like a burger right now... :)). My point is your statement does not apply to the majority of atheists. I mean, if you don't feel satisfied by your lack of belief, why not seek out a belief? I think for most people it can be said if your belief system isn't working for you, you find one that does. For an atheist this is an easy jump because we never worry if we stop not believing in god we will go to hell. For a Christian to consider switching religions it's a much more involved process, as you have to consider you might go to hell for changing your beliefs. Atheists don't have that problem. We're all going to hell anyway! See you there, Cap, NK and my other buddies! :)

speech I think the difference is you have a romanticized view of human life. You attribute something profound to love, hate, etc instead of looking at it from a scientific POV and attributing electrical pulses to such feelings. To a scientist, or someone who follows the scientific line of thinking, we aren't anything special. We're just bags of salty water with lots of electricity running through us. When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.

I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.

Heh, Jill, I'm thinkin' flamegrilled. Mmmmm.

You're saying an atheist always has an underlying desire to believe, that they have an emptiness inside them, and frankly, that's just not true.



I am not even talking about atheists at all.

I am well aware that not all atheists feel empty.

worthbeads, however, has said that he/she wants to believe in God but has some unanswered questions. Reference the following quote...




I want to believe in God, but there are so many questions unanswered.




As I stated before, to quote myself...




I worded that the way I did because it appears as though worthbeads may feel this way. If he chooses to ignore his feelings, he may very well grow old with a sense of unfulfillment or emptiness.



There is something that is nagging at worthbeads to believe. If belief never comes to him/her then it seems logical that being unfulfilled or feeling empty could be a result.





your statement does not apply to the majority of atheists.



It is not supposed to apply to the majority of anyone.
It was meant for worthbeads - based on statements made by worthbeads.

Actually, rudi, you DID mention atheists:


You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. No heaven, no hell, no big deal.

That directly says atheists are not fulfilled and have an emptiness in their hearts. I see your point that you intended that to only be directed at worth, but, again, you are saying if he chooses to not believe he will have an emptiness. How do you know if he lets go of the notion of heaven and hell he won't feel free and become fulfilled by other things in life?

speech I think the difference is you have a romanticized view of human life. You attribute something profound to love, hate, etc instead of looking at it from a scientific POV and attributing electrical pulses to such feelings. To a scientist, or someone who follows the scientific line of thinking, we aren't anything special. We're just bags of salty water with lots of electricity running through us.

When I was a child and cried after losing my dog, was that a romanticized view of life, or did I hurt down to my very soul? For that matter, as a 46 year old man and I cried for hours after burying my dog this past June, was that just a romanticized view of life or did I hurt down to my very soul? Sure, there were chemicals brewing inside me and electrical impulses racing, but did that convert to the conscious emotional pain I felt over losing my best friend of 10 years, or was my pain the cause of those processes?


When you break it down, that's what a human is; we're flesh, blood, bone, water, gooey stuff, and there's all sorts of electricity running around in there too. On the LITERAL surface, that's a human. Scientists think on the literal surface. You, and many others, want there to be more than that to humans; it's romanticizing scientific reasoning. You can hook someone up to fancy machines and show them images to demonstrate the electrical impulses of feelings. It can actually be seen, certain parts of the brain light up when certain things happen. That's how scientists explain emotions - they can be seen.

Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?


I'm not saying you are wrong or less intelligent for thinking this way - I know you're a smart guy. But I think your religious beliefs lead you to think this way, whereas someone without religious beliefs looks at the literal surface.

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.

Religion cannot be forced down anyone's throat, it has to be understood,believed and accepted.
As for me my religion is not just a private thing, nor does it restrict myself from learning the sciences.
For me it is a way of life, with guidelines from the newborn to the dead, from how to keep myself clean to how to pray, from how to behave with those who believe and those who do not,from how to conduct myself in business transactions to divorce settlements,from how to treat my family to how to treat the needy,from the laws of inheritance to how to dress...
And this is why my faith completes my life...

You choose not to follow him and the teachings of the bible. You continue to have a desire to believe that is never fulfilled and you grow old with an emptiness in your heart.
You die. no heaven, no hell, no big deal.



My quote says that there is a continued desire to believe that is not fulfilled. Being directed at worthbeads, when I say "you choose" it means worthbeads chooses.


My hypothetical situation to worthbeads is that God or no God, heaven or no heaven, hell or no hell, if he wants to believe and never does there is the possibility that he is left unfulilled.

The key here is that worthbeads said that he wants to believe.

If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?

There are some good books on Creation vs Evolution if you are as inquisitive about your logical side as you say you are. Not to say one way or another, but if scientists and people were as "Logical" as they say they are, society would not be so quick to displace the Creation theory. Do you realize that Evolution has become so accepted as truth that it is taught as fact in schools? Do you realize that it is still given the title of "Theory"? This means it has not been proven as fact... I am not saying to believe in one or the other, I am simply trying to get people to not believe everything you are taught. We have to be free thinkers and think for yourself. Test everything. Do you realize that the creation theory says that the earth is only 6000 yrs old? Noahs flood is what caused the dinosaurs to die off, causing the polar ice caps to form instantly and not over millions of years. Read some objective books on Carbon dating and you will find that it is not a reliable way of dating objects. They have found sub-tropical plant fossils in the north pole. Something to think about.
Yeah, but what if my soul lives on in some sort of hell? At my faith level right now I am most likely not assured to stay out of hell.

...but if scientists and people were as "Logical" as they say they are, society would not be so quick to displace the Creation theory.Isn't Creation theory pretty much "Let there be" this and "Let there be" that? Is there something I am missing?

Speech:


did I hurt down to my very soul?

That implies there IS a soul. I know you believe there is such a thing, but there is no proof of such a thing.


Sure they can be seen, but which was the stimulus, the thought or the impulse? How do you convert electricity into a thought?

I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a boring business student. :)


Thanks for the kind words, but I don't believe it is religion that leads people to think that way, they have to be taught to think otherwise.

In a way I agree with you here. Unless one is taught about the electrical impulses and how on a literal surface the human body functions, they will more than likey assume it's "magic" or "god" or whatever. When we don't understand something, we look for a way to explain it. I guess what I meant to say is your religion furthers your belief there is something more profound to humans than what science has demonstrated.

rudi, I see your point. Your comments were directed at worth and at worth alone.


If you want something and never get it, would that not leave you unfulfilled in some way?

But there is still the possibility that if he chooses NOT to believe, if he realizes belief DOESN'T fill his needs, that lack of belief WILL fill his needs. People often talk about how accepting Jesus into your hearts gives you a sense of fulfillment, but why can't that same fulfillment be reached by rejecting him? To say one can only be fulfilled by accepting religion is not accurate. Religion can set you free - so can lack of religion.

Yes, there is the possibility that if worthbeads has a change of heart and no longer has a desire to believe that there will be no sense of emptiness.

That implies there IS a soul. I know you believe there is such a thing, but there is no proof of such a thing.

No, I can no more prove there is such a thing as a soul than science can prove our thoughts and feelings are nothing more than impersonal electrical impulses and chemical processes.


I don't know, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a boring business student. :)

Boring? No way, unless of course you're an accounting major :)


In a way I agree with you here. Unless one is taught about the electrical impulses and how on a literal surface the human body functions, they will more than likey assume it's "magic" or "god" or whatever. When we don't understand something, we look for a way to explain it. I guess what I meant to say is your religion furthers your belief there is something more profound to humans than what science has demonstrated.

My faith confirms my belief that we are more than bags of salty water and places a much higher value on life. That's why science says a fetus is easily disposed of tissue and faith says it's a child of infinite value. As Capuchin describes it, instead of telling my wife I love her, I should be able to get away with saying that her "visual, chemical and behavioural cues" make her a good genetic match to my instinct to protect my own genes. Think that would work? :D

No, I can no more prove there is such a thing as a soul than science can prove our thoughts and feelings are nothing more than impersonal electrical impulses and chemical processes.

I'll give you that one. At least you acknowledge there are electrical impulses.



Boring? No way, unless of course you're an accounting major :)

Nope, good 'ol HR! :)


My faith confirms my belief that we are more than bags of salty water and places a much higher value on life. That's why science says a fetus is easily disposed of tissue and faith says it's a child of infinite value.

Yes, your faith has everything to do with it. I won't get into the fetus thing with you; you can't bait me, not here! :p


As Capuchin describes it, instead of telling my wife I love her, I should be able to get away with saying that her "visual, chemical and behavioural cues" make her a good genetic match to my instinct to protect my own genes. Think that would work? :D

Well that depends, does your wife have a sense of humor? :) Just because science has a method for observing and dictating where emotions come from doesn't mean you can't express them in another way, with words that are more pleasing to hear. Remember, when the electrical impulses in your brain tell you you love your wife, and you in turn tell her, electrical impulses start up in her brain to covey emotion, presumably, happy ones (unless she's pi$$ed at you and you're trying to say "I love you" to make up for what you did wrong, that is!). Maybe THAT'S where we get the idea of "electricity" in a relationship...

Well that depends, does your wife have a sense of humor? :) Just because science has a method for observing and dictating where emotions come from doesn't mean you can't express them in another way, with words that are more pleasing to hear. Remember, when the electrical impulses in your brain tell you you love your wife, and you in turn tell her, electrical impulses start up in her brain to covey emotion, presumably, happy ones (unless she's pi$$ed at you and you're trying to say "I love you" to make up for what you did wrong, that is!). Maybe THAT'S where we get the idea of "electricity" in a relationship...

Jillian, I'm not trying to bait anyone, OK? And if science can explain female behavior then I'm all for it :)

Jillian, I'm not trying to bait anyone, ok? And if science can explain female behavior then I'm all for it :)

You didn't know? Scientists are all afraid of women so we get deemed the "mysteries" of the universe. They are afraid to figure us out because we might have magical powers to make their brains explode. Don't you worry, there's an underground society of female scientists who are trying to harness the brain-exploding ability and once they do... well, lets just say if your wife tell you to rub her feet, you damn well better do it! :D

You didn't know? Scientists are all afraid of women so we get deemed the "mysteries" of the universe. They are afraid to figure us out because we might have magical powers to make their brains explode. Don't you worry, there's an underground society of female scientists who are trying to harness the brain-exploding ability and once they do... well, lets just say if your wife tell you to rub her feet, you damn well better do it! :D

That's what I'm afraid of :D

I believe in God because someone or something had to create the universe. When I hear the Big Bang Theory, I think, "great...but who made those gases that combusted?" Everything else is questionable...

I believe in God because someone or something had to create the universe. When I hear the Big Bang Theory, I think, "great...but who made those gases that combusted?" Everything else is questionable...

Who made god? :)

Who made god? :)

That is a question asked many times.

My answer to that may not be what you are looking for as it is not scientific .

God created all that exists on the universe and beyond, this does not mean that the Creator has to have the same characteristics of the created.God does not need to be created or formed or evolved,He stays the same always.He has no beginning and no end.

If God had a beginning then He would cease to be God, as this beginning would make Him similar to His creations. If He had an end then He ceases to be God.

Time does not exist for God as it does for humans and other creation, He is the Creator of time,hence He is not affected by time.

God is beyond time.
There was no need to "make god" because there never was a lack of god.

Why does there ever need to be a lack of these gasses?

If God is eternal, I see no reason not to posit that energy is eternal.

Because the theory that everything started with the big bang would be incorrect if there was matter before the big bang.

Energy is not matter. Big bang theory does not give an explanation for what was before the big bang. It states that our universe started at the big bang.

Gas is not energy. It is made up of atoms, and as such is matter.

Matter is made from energy.

I have no problem with God creating everything in a Big Bang. It's one theory among many, the most prominent being black-hole Big Bangs, an oscillatory universe, Penrose's heat death entropy universe, or M-Brane collision.

We have little evidence either way. But I see no way for a creator to avoid having been created, maybe by a bigger creator, and this iteration continues on forever, so I see it much simpler to posit that he didn't cause the big bang and that the big bang was a consequence of an eternal energy (like the other theories posit).

My only issue really is that you have as much evidence as I do (none), yet you argue as if you had more. I don't believe that it's a valid argument for the existence of a God.

That is a question asked many times.

My answer to that may not be what you are looking for as it is not scientific .

.

Their statement that they don't know what happened before the Big Bang isn't
Scientific. Yet they have no problem. Neither do they have a problem with the seeming paradox of infinite space-and ultimate location. So certainly the unknown or paradoxical isn't an insurmountable issue for them. So why should they require that it be an insurmountable issue for us?

I cannot understand why God has to be in a box, with His chemical properties,biological characteristics,genus,family, and location listed.
He will not be God if we are able to do such things.
He is the One who started creation and He does not have to be created, if He was ever created then He is not God.
I cannot understand why humans need to see,touch God to know He exists.
The whole universe in its vastness,uniqueness in design, how it all works makes me wonder how can one not see the handiwork of a Creator.
When we look into science we find that each biological organism is built with perfection unless there is an exception to the norm (which maybe diseased etc).
Everything in nature has its function in the cycle of life and death, the Creator is the creator and sustainer of all that exists.

P.S -another question
-To my understanding, the Quran states that every living thing is made up of water(not 100%,but water is a main component)-could this be the reason that scientists think that everything came from the same source when life began?

You cannot see a way to avoid being created, that's because of your limitations. God has no limitations, and hence can see ways to do everything.

:)

Hmmm I enjoy these debates :)

Firm, there are many cases of imperfection in the wild, for example the vestigial hind legs of a whale. Evolution describes these structures well. How did a perfect designer come to design such organs with no use?

The main evidence for a single common ancestor is DNA and genes, nothing to do with water content. We are so genetically similar to other animals, with only relatively few genes defining the species. There are other evidences, but DNA is remarkably powerful. The vast majority of organisms life off oxygen and water, except for those that were forced into an ecological niche where one of these was absent. Why didn't God make more nitrogen-based creatures, since he decided to put so much nitrogen in our atmosphere?

Maybe it is more efficient for god to create us all based on a similar dna template, and it would have other good points to this method, such as making it easier for us humans to eventually decode this dna, because of the similarities.
Just because you cannot see a use does not mean that there is no use.
Also, if god created a being with no imperfections, he would be cloning himself.
He wanted to create whales, not gods with flippers.

I thought man was supposed to be perfect?

No.
Man sins.
We were created as almost perfect (in gods own image)
But we didn't have all the knowledge (the two gifts on the two trees in eden)
We took one of them, but we took it in an act of sin, and thus became sinners.
If we had eaten both, who knows what would have happened

But he designed us to be perfect, in his image right?

Almost perfect in my opinion.
Here's some quotes that really interest me
First one from the bible
"you were fearfully and wonderfully made"etc etc made in gods own image (I don't have a bible on hand and can't remember the exact words or the verse)
Now here's one by shakespeare

"What a piece of work is a man!
how noble in reason!
how infinite in faculty!
in form and moving, how express and admirable!
in action, how like an angel!
in apprehension, how like a god!
the beauty of the world!
the paragon of animals!"

But he designed us to be perfect, in his image right?


Yes, until Adam and Eve sinned. Now we have the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. We have freedom, choices , and responsibilities.

And I know that I have made wrong choices, and done evil things, and may always do so in this lifetime even though I try as hard as possible to do the right thing.

He, the Lord, imparts His righteousness and His perfection, and thus acceptability to those who believe.;)




Grace and Peace

Firm, there are many cases of imperfection in the wild, for example the vestigial hind legs of a whale. Evolution describes these structures well. How did a perfect designer come to design such organs with no use?

The main evidence for a single common ancestor is DNA and genes, nothing to do with water content. We are so genetically similar to other animals, with only relatively few genes defining the species. There are other evidences, but DNA is remarkably powerful. The vast majority of organisms life off oxygen and water, except for those that were forced into an ecological niche where one of these was absent. Why didn't God make more nitrogen-based creatures, since he decided to put so much nitrogen in our atmosphere?

Similarity doesn't prove common ancestry unless one approaches that similarity with evolutionary preconceptions. We share similar structues because we live on the same planet and the Creator used the similar body plans to allow us all to live here.

Similarity can either be the result of common ancestry or common design. The 96% (or whatever) similarity alone doesn't prove common ancestry.. .
Chimps Are Like Us (http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/sage/v10i1f.htm)

Nitrogen fertilizes the plants. Lightning makes it available and rain brings it down.

Excerpt




Vestigial organs are thought to be useless by evolutionists.

They say the whale has "a vestigial pelvis and it is evidence of evolution from a 4-legged land dwelling mammal. The whale retains pelvic and leg bones as useless vestiges."

But the real truth is, these are really anchor points that muscles attach to and used for reproduction; they have absolutely nothing to do with a whale having legs.

Frauds And Fakes #1 (Vestigial Organs) (http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/f&f1.html)

How about human ear muscles? They are too weak to serve any purpose.

How about the sense of smell diminishing in modern societies?

You really want to hear what the person in house 3 blocks away are saying?
I wouldn't. I don't want to hear everyoens private conversations, my ears are powerful enough to hear what people want to tell me and not to hear other people private business.

Exactly, our ear muscles have degraded because they are not in use any more and they have changed evolutionary because people with too weak ears to be able to hear predators are no longer killed by those predators. We don't need sensitive directional hearing in this social community we live in.

Likewise we no longer need smell, because we have no need to be able to smell our clanmates in the dark or smell a predator, this is why we have a very variable ability to smell.

Evolution is a beautiful and far-reaching theory, it describes so many things so incredibly well, it is the quantum mechanics of biology.

Exactly, our ear muscles have degraded because they are not in use any more and they have changed evolutionary because people with too weak ears to be able to hear predators are no longer killed by those predators. We don't need sensitive directional hearing in this social community we live in.

Likewise we no longer need smell, because we have no need to be able to smell our clanmates in the dark or smell a predator, this is why we have a very variable ability to smell.

Evolution is a beautiful and far-reaching theory, it describes so many things so incredibly well, it is the quantum mechanics of biology.



Under that criterion you would have to include other human features under vestigial a well to wit: human jaw, eyes, eyebrows, brow ridges, front limbs, nose, ears, eyes and even mouth could be labeled vestigial, since they too according to evolutionists have shrunk.

BTW
Perceived beauty in an explanation does not by default = truth. Many of the beautifully expressed evolutionary explanations have turned out to be false, for example, hasty conclusions of evolutionary vestigiality in reference to the appendix, the tonsils, the thymus gland and others have proven otherwise. So beauty of expression is nice and mesmerizing--but no guarantee of verity.

Do any vestigial organs exist in humans? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i2/vestigial.asp)


Throughout the past century there has always existed a significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims. In fact, the member of biologists who have expressed some degree of disillusionment is practically endless." —*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1986), p. 327.

Has nothing ever happened in your life that says WOW that was the works of some higher power?
Or that little voice in your head that is saying to you don't do it or yes this is the right dirrection?
I have personally had so many exsperiences that made me just know.
Here is an simple example, I was home raising my children for the early years and then
I decided to go back to work but I dident know what to do , somehow all the signs and opyions were pointed out to me, I got into health care and became a can the first place I went to seemed like an awful place to work and I had my doughts but they hired me on the spot so I thought I would try it out just until I could find another job,
There was an old man that I became very attached to he had no family and no one to visit him, we talked a lot and he dident have any religious back ground. I talked to him about Jesus and God. He got bad and was dying and transferred to the hospital, I drove when I could to be beside him so he would not be alone, When he was dying he said he was scared I told him to ask Jesus into his heart and pray for forgivness and he would go to that wonderful place called heaven and he did. He died that night.
I was ready to leave that facility but couldent leave him, after he died I quit working there
I feel like it was all in his plan.
A lot of other things in my life has happened to that I know was the works of God.
I don't go by facts or proof of science verses the Bible I am spiritual but Im not by far a non sinner and I don't go to church like I should, but I do pray and believe and I try to listen to that inner voice that I call God.

Has nothing ever happened in your life that says WOW that was the works of some higher power?
No.

Or that little voice in your head that is saying to you dont do it or yes this is the right dirrection?
Yea, that's my intuition based on my education and life experiences. Some people have really crappy intuition and voices in their heads that tell them awful things. Stay on this board long enough and you'll meet plenty.

Yes I guess it is a matter of how you choose to look at it, I believe that our conscious or intuition, the little voice is some times God. Not even a voice so much as a feeling pushing you in a certain direction.
I don't think any one will have all the answeres until they meet their maker.
Why somepeople just know there is a God by feeling , and some don't understand that.
Maybe we are at different stages.

Treeny,
I agree some of us(like you and me) see the miracles as miracles while others are OK with a scientific explanation and not believing it to be a miracle.
I know many who have changed along the way... and found the truth of the Almighty.

Yes and like the old man at the nursing home he was a new born spiritually but physically
At the end. Some people don't get it until the very end. That's what I mean by different stages. I think God gives all a chances to recognise him .
Some may see a miracle as just a circumstance of life but then later on in life
Maybe at the time of death or before, the pieces fall into place.

The facts are posted in the Bible. The New Testament experience is just as real today as it was two thousand years ago. There is a book you can obtain from a Christian bookshop called I want to believe but, alternatively you could try Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh Mc Dowell

God requires faith from us, and that's all he really asks of us, is to have faith, he even forgives or every sin.
So, seeing as that isn't much to ask, just to have faith, I see no need to pursue evidence, because I know he's real without needing any evidence.

How can a person believe in God without absolutely nothing to convince him? That doesn't make sense. If there is something to convince him-then that something is the evidence which the person has accepted as proof. Also, to say that we see nothing in nature that contributes to our belief in God is to say that we are blind to his handiwork. Unapreciative of his wisdom as revealed in his creation. Is that a virtue? Actually such a view is unscriptural since, the Bible constantly reminds us that creation provides us with evidence that reveals God's wisdom and power. So obviously he DOES want us to gain spiritual strength via observation of his greatness as revealed in his handiwork. Whence do you derive the idea that God requires blind faith?

I know god is real, because my whole life... ive felt a need for him, at an early age I didn't realise I was looking for god, but I always tried to find a church, and when I found a church, I realised how much I needed him.
A thirsty man cannot disbelieve in water.
Anyway, I do see evidence, I just don't need it, I see it in the eyes of my christian friends, they tell me god is, and they are rational people who would never lie to me.

Isn't Creation theory pretty much "Let there be" this and "Let there be" that? Is there something I am missing?
There is much more than you know. Creation theory teaches that the entire world was a subtropical climate before Noah's flood. Genesis explains that that there was a water expanse from another. Creation theory holds that there was a water vapour covering that surrounded the planet and created a "greenhouse affect", thus making the earth a subtropical climate. After Noah's flood the water vapour barrier was dissolved and the polar ice caps were formed instantly. This is just a taste of what the creation theory holds. You should read some books on it. It is interesting.

Creation theory holds that there was a water vapour covering that surrounded the planet and created a "greenhouse affect", thus making the earth a subtropical climate.Where in the bible does it say that?