--The putative father should have the right to submit to the judge that they have or may have gotten a woman pregnant, and wish to prevent an abortion attempt by the mother. Pending DNA after the putative fathers request is accepted, should have the right to put a stop on any abortion attempt by the mother.

Right or wrong?

XenoSapien

As a christian I believe in that abortion / with or without putative father's consent / is murder.

As a woman who had a teen pregnancy where the father didn't stick around... I think it should be the woman's choice entirely.

HOWEVER: When medical technology catches up to the point where men are able to carry babies in some sort of surrogate womb (in other words, go through pregnancy), I think they then should have the right to have that egg transferred to their own bodies. Until then, I think that it should remain the mother's choice.

By the way... since I don't think that DNA testing can't be done on a fetus that young in utero (please... corrections if I'm wrong would be great), I think there is NO WAY that a man should be able to prevent an abortion just by saying the kid is his. Do you realize how many idiots would be stepping forward JUST to prevent an abortion--possibly for a woman he doesn't even know? Until men can take on the pregnancy and everything that goes with it, they'll have to wait to have a say in that choice.

How many threads have you read here where people's lives are ruined by a child that was not wanted? Perhaps it's a good thing that the woman would want to abort.

The only testing that can be done in utero is an amneocentesis, since that is a very dangerous procedure that can possibly result in miscarriage, I do not think it will ever be done for paternity testing, many women, the men you speak of, and the doctors involved will not submit to that form of DNA test. The test itself can be brutal (especially if afraid of needles).

So, since the woman carries the baby, goes through the hormonal mood swings, and has to endure labor and delivery, it will remain her choice until we see the day that Synn speaks of. I don't see that happening in the near future.

Sorry Xeno, your theory has too many holes to hold water.

I agree with Synnen. The baby is growing inside the woman's body, which puts her at certain physical risks. You are aware that women still die in childbirth, right? When men have the ability to continue the pregnancy outside a woman's body, then they will be able to ask that the fetus be awarded to them.

Of course, a medical advance like that is sure to have many ripples, and will probably cause a huge culture shift in how family is defined and what rights and obligations are attendant upon parents.

I understand it's a woman's body, but nine months compared to the next 50 years or so? A child is NOT just about the first nine months. To say that just because the woman carries the child entitles them to most or total power is a total cop-out. It takes two, doesn't it?

XenoSapien

Xeno... if a guy doesn't want a child (and really, this applies to women too, but that's beside the point) he should KEEP IT IN HIS PANTS. Period.

You have no idea how hard that nine months is. You have no idea the changes it makes to your body, you emotions, your decision making process... NONE of that.

When you (or any man) can carry baby weight the rest of his life, or FEEL a baby move inside you, or have morning sickness or really and truly understand what those 9 months are like... THEN you can make decisions regarding that fetus.

Until then... your ideas are really pretty insane.

Asinine on its face.

For this to be even considered, we'll have to add a few things:

Father accepts 100% responsibility for the child, financial and otherwise, from birth on.
Father immediately pays all medical costs in the pregnancy and delivery, up front. Father immediately disclaims any right to public assistance for the life of the child. Violate any of this, and he loses all rights to the child permanently, but is required to pay child support. Should anything happen to the mother during or as a result of the pregnancy, the father is 100% liable for it, criminally and financially. This means that if the mother dies in childbirth, we have first degree murder.

Amazingly, all of this is still more reasonable than the original suggestion.

Xeno...if a guy doesn't want a child (and really, this applies to women too, but that's beside the point) he should KEEP IT IN HIS PANTS. Period.

You have no idea how hard that nine months is. You have no idea the changes it makes to your body, you emotions, your decision making process...NONE of that.

When you (or any man) can carry baby weight the rest of his life, or FEEL a baby move inside you, or have morning sickness or really and truly understand what those 9 months are like...THEN you can make decisions regarding that fetus.

Until then....your ideas are really pretty insane.Again, nine months compared to the horrors that child will be exposed to for the next fifty years does not compare. That pain was God's idea, not MEN. So to punish them is insane.

XenoSapien

Asinine on its face.

For this to be even considered, we'll have to add in a few things:

Father accepts 100% responsibility for the child, financial and otherwise, from birth on.
Father immediately pays all medical costs in the pregnancy and delivery, up front. Father immediately disclaims any right to public assistance for the life of the child. Violate any of this, and he loses all rights to the child permanently, but is required to pay child support. Should anything happen to the mother during or as a result of the pregnancy, the father is 100% liable for it, criminally and financially. This means that if the mother dies in childbirth, we have first degree murder.

Amazingly, all of this is still more reasonable than the original suggestion.Ok. That's fair :).

XenoSapien

I don't believe in your god.

The discomforts of pregnancy and childbirth are part of biology, not part of some god's plan.

And again... if you don't want 50 years of a child, keep your pants on. Simplest solution.

I don't believe in your god.

The discomforts of pregnancy and childbirth are part of biology, not part of some god's plan.

And again...if you don't want 50 years of a child, keep your pants on. Simplest solution.Ok, well your lack of belief in God says it all to me. So from a secular point of view, hindsight is always 20/20. It's easy to say what you're saying; kind of like telling a blind person, "Ha! You're blind".

One can whine and moan forever about what someone should have done, but that is the easy way out of a discussion. Dealing with what is is far more productive. Interesting how you don't believe in God, yet you list the seven deadly sins on your footnote...

XenoSapien

You know... whether religious or secular, the things you are suggesting set back women's rights by a few centuries.

Right now, let's set men's rights aside. It's taken CENTURIES to allow women the choice of who is in their own bed, rather than who a man chooses for her. Women can now raise a child by themselves, rather than having to marry the man who got her pregnant or raped her. Women can choose whether to burden their lives with a child, or to accept the joys of a child, depending on the point of view.

Sorry, but I can't feel too sorry for men who have to pay child support. Or women, for that matter!

If you want to have rights to your child, FIGHT for them. We have a court system that is increasingly awarding custody to fathers. If your ex is that psycho, DOCUMENT it, get a good lawyer, and get custody of the child yourself.

Again... when men can go through pregnancy and childbirth, that's when I'll put the rights to decide back into their hands.

And just for your information, I've faced that choice. It's not an easy one, regardless of circumstances.

I'm betting that if we got your ex's side of things, we'd hear a drastically different story.

"You know...whether religious or secular, the things you are suggesting set back women's rights by a few centuries."

Yet as it stands now, it's like that only the sexes have been switched. It is the men who are profoundly persecuted, and I am only looking to encourage a once and for all balance.

See the other post I did as to what I've already done to fight.

As for the "X's side of things", here is who you will be attempting to be fair to:

---10/29/97

Count 01: Domestic Battery/Physical Contact; Class A Misdemeanor

This particular offense is one that says a lot to me. It wasn't just battery, it was battery on her OWN MOTHER. According to the docket information, "Defendant to have NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER with ******** *********."

We are talking here about a woman who already has two girls. Granted, at this current time and the last that I've heard, the oven is making plans to have these two girls move in the home along with her new boyfriend. These girls have been raised, for at least the past three years at the least by grandma, and now their mother will finally raise them like she should have all along.
But will these girls have a developed, life-long profound level of animosity, that they will end up doing the same thing to their mother? And will the child we have, should mom have custody, end up doing the same thing?

In March of 1999, the docket ends with saying that the "Court finds that the People have not proven their case".

---09/11/98

Count 01: Resist/Obstruct peace officer
Count 02: False report of offense

This docket talks about how "The Court notes Defendant is currently on 12 mos. Conditional Discharge in 97 ** **** for domestic battery."

In October of 1998, the oven tenders a plea of 'guilty' to disorderly conduct as set forth in Count 02. This plea was accepted by the court, and the oven spent two days in jail with no time served. Apparently, "On People's motion, Count 01 is dismissed."

---07/02/99
Count 01: Forcible Entry & Detainer

This charge is evidently submitted by the Housing Authority. I had no idea about this one, but apparently it talks about her being evicted from a residence.

---08/27/99

Count 01: Resisting/ Obstructing Police Officer

It looks like a warrant was issued in March of 2000 for her arrest. But, as is the pattern, all charges were dismissed by July of 2001.

XenoSapien

---09/08/99
Count 01: Driver's License Expired 6 Months or Less

I was never told about this one. But if I remember correctly, she has never had a license. And if I'm still correct, she still doesn't have one. She pled guilty, and was found responsible for fines and costs.

---09/08/99

Count 01: Operate Uninsured Motor Vehicle

And yes, charges dismissed. Pretty girl fools the system yet again.

---03/17/00

Count 01: Domestic battery/ contact/ prior
Count 02: Battery/ makes physical contact

Now, if I remember what she told me about this one, this is an attack on her first borns' father, who she abandoned at the alter. I'm not sure exactly, but I think this was her revenge for him breaking her jaw (of which I now know likely why he did it, and have a hard time personally blaming him for it); so she retaliated and got him back. I don't know his last name, so I'm not able to pull up his information, but I assume he had charges pressed on him too. But this is her second domestic battery charge.

In May of 2000, there is an appearance of the States Attorney on her behalf. By July, "Motion by the State to dismiss. No objection by the defendant. Motion is allowed. The indictment and each count thereof is dismissed and nolle pross'ed"; which means dismissed. I compared the file date and the offense date, and it seems that she spent three days in jail for this one.

---05/10/02 Count 01: Criminal Trespass to Land

A warrant was issued on 06/20/02. And apparently, this warrant was never served. Hence, the oven seems to still be wanted by the law. Granted it was almost five years ago, but this made me jump for joy. Regardless of whether the city cares to issue this warrant or not, the judge is GUARANTEED to learn of this one. There's another ace in my pocket.

--- 09/17/02

Count 01: Possession Amount of Controlled Substance (Except A/D) Class 4 felony

In October of 2002, a warrant for her arrest was issued with a bail set in the amount of $25,000. In November, she pleas not guilty and requests a trial by jury. Exactly thirty days later, she changes her plea to guilty of "unlawful possession of a controlled substance, a class 4 felony".

If I remember what she told me of this one, it was that she was hanging out with a dealer (no sex involved), and he got busted with her in the house. So basically, to some degree, she "ratted" him out, and escaped jail time. According to the docket, she was sentenced to 48 days in the county correctional facility, but was given credit for 48 days and given 24 months worth of probation.

On this same docket, in October of 2004, a probation violation report was placed on file. In April of 2005, another violation of probation was placed on file and the next day a warrant was issued for her arrest. 23 days later, she appears in custody to the court. By early November, an order of discharge from probation is entered.

I really wish that I could understand these dockets/legal data much better, because I think I'm probably leaving out a lot. But I am trying to learn, and by all means when she and I stand before the judge on this custody issue, the judge will be thoroughly briefed by my lawyer on these past offenses.

--- 11/06/02

Count 01: Driver's License Expired 6 Months or Less

Fines: $75.

--- 11/06/02

Count 01: Operate Uninsured Motor Vehicle

No suprise; just as I've found her to be: a repeat offender. And her state judiciary system is a joke. Fines and cost and that's it. Pretty girls with a cute body and do not deserve to be held accountable for their criminal behavior. Have a nice day!

--- 10/09/04

Count 1: Domestic Battery/ Contact/ Prior

In December of 2004, a warrant was issued for her arrest for this matter with a bond set at $5,000. This also had an appearance by the State's Attorney. In September of 2005, "On motion of the state this cause is ordered dismissed and stricken."

This domestic battery was her attack on the only man she ever married. A good guy who I actually met, but the details of this case for some reason, is quite hazy. I'm not exactly sure how it all went down, but I think that he ended up dropping the charges.

--- 04/07/05

Count 01: Knowingly damage property<$300
Count 02: Knowingly damage property<$300

It appears that she was in jail for this one for a period of 13 days. But again, "On motion by the People, with no objection by defendant, this cause is dismissed and nolle pross'ed. Bond, if any, is discharged."

I had no idea about this incident. If she did tell me, I definitely don't remember it.

Now these above are the only charges that I could find. But I'm positive that there is at least one more: Unknown. It is unknown because she refused to tell me what it was about, and that she just wanted me to bail her out; this also occurred just this past year. I know that she was in jail for at least a week, and was desperate to get out. She hates jail, but it's amazing how I have concluded that she belongs there.

This is who the oven is. This is someone who I made a poor choice to interact with, and now that she is carrying my child, I'm sick with myself that I ever got involved with her at all. ANY WOMAN ON EARTH THAT TELLS ME THEY WILL "SNAIL-MAIL" ME AN ABORTED FETUS WILL SUFFER THIS SAME FATE.

I am shocked by the surplus of dismissals issued by this state's judiciary system. This woman is not an explosion waiting to detonate? This woman is a "fit" mother to already two girls? This woman deserves to be totally admonished of consequences in respects to her multiple disregard of legal authority, commits multiple counts of battery, and has by her own mother's words, medical documents that support my assessment of the mother's psychological behavoir? What kind of judge will allow her full custody?

And just so you know, my last run-in with breaking the law was disobeying a traffic sign, and a seat-belt violation about three years ago.

XenoSapien

What are those and what relevance does it bring to the discussion?

Momma's criminal record and the concept of 'credibility'. Momma would make the girl who went after the Duke University lacrosse players look like a 'choir-girl'. I'm entreating Synnen's curiousity about who the mother is when she stated:

" I'm betting that if we got your ex's side of things, we'd hear a drastically different story."

Funny thing is, Synnen is right. We WOULD hear a drastically different story.

XenoSapien

So you're bitter because you chose to have sex with a less than stable person and now you're paying for that decision. Got it.

Wrong. Read my other post. I'm not going to repeat myself because someone doesn't have the full story.

XenoSapien

[QUOTE=XenoSapien]Ok. That's fair :).

XenoSapien

So what happens when the baby is born and DNA proves you aren't the father? You just say oops sorry for making you have a child you don't want and sorry to the child for forcing it to be born and live the next "torturous 50 years" to parents who don't want it?

You're really after shooting me down, aren't you? I respect that. Kudos.

Then a life has been saved from a mother who wanted to MURDER it. I have done a great thing. Besides, this will stop women who like to mess with a man, and tell them that they are pregnant by him; or women that will tell them that they will abort, and send them the aborted fetus as evidence.

"Forcing" a child to be born? You're new. I'll give you a pass on that.

XenoSapien

No, not really after shooting you down. You asked for others opinions on the amendments you would like to see become law. So you would need to be willing to accept the pro's and con's of your suggestion. I personally believe abortion is wrong. But the fact is you can't go around dictating what someone else can do with a baby that may not be yours. In theory if there weren't holes in your proposal I like the idea of both mother and father having the right to keep that baby alive and raise it. But these are the arguments that you would come up against that will keep it from ever becoming law.

So what happens when the baby is born and DNA proves you aren't the father? You just say oops sorry for making you have a child you don't want and sorry to the child for forcing it to be born and live the next "torturous 50 years" to parents who don't want it?
I am amazing-what kind of mother should be... if she does not have any ideas who the father is :D :D :eek: :eek:

I am amazing-what kind of mother should be...if she does not have any ideas who the father is :D :D :eek: :eek:

The same kind of father who doesn't know if he has fathered children by this woman or that because he is also sleeping around. And the same kind of a father who sleeps with this kind of a woman.

Point well taken. You are correct, I do need the criticism to push these amendments, so by all means keep it coming. But like I said, "besides, this will stop women who like to mess with a man, and tell them that they are pregnant by him; or women that will tell them that they will abort, and send them the aborted fetus as evidence."

XenoSapien

The same kind of father who doesn't know if he has fathered children by this woman or that because he is also sleeping around. And the same kind of a father who sleeps with this kind of a woman.
Sounds stupidly... The man CANNOT control women fertilization;)

Sounds stupidly...The man CANNOT control women fertilization;)

What?

Sounds stupidly...The man CANNOT control women fertilization;)

A woman who is sleeping around with multiple men and gets pregnant will not know which man is the father until the child is born and DNA tests are done. Similarly, a man who is sleeping around with multiple women doesn't know how many kids he has until all the DNA tests are done.

A woman who is sleeping around with multiple men and gets pregnant will not know which man is the father until the child is born and DNA tests are done. Similarly, a man who is sleeping around with multiple women doesn't know how many kids he has until all the DNA tests are done.
Prenatal DNA Testing-$445 ONLY!:D :D :D

Prenatal Paternity Tests from Certified DNA Paternity Testing Laboratory and Prenatal Paternity Test Information (http://www.genetree.com/paternity/prenatalPaternity.php)

Prenatal DNA Testing-$445 ONLY!:D :D :D

Prenatal Paternity Tests from Certified DNA Paternity Testing Laboratory and Prenatal Paternity Test Information (http://www.genetree.com/paternity/prenatalPaternity.php)
You have got to be kidding. The only prenatal testing I know of thus far is amniocentesis or CVS and they are totally risky as they have a high risk of miscarriage. I don't know of any doctor who I work or have worked with that will be willing to do this.

Spread the love, spread the love... blah, blah, blah. :) Dead on again J-9! Amnio can result in causing things like club foot to miscarriage. Uh noooo not just $445 because then you have to pay for the doctor appointment to do the amnio and the procedure itself. Which will not be covered by insurance because it will be considered an elective procedure. The $445 is also only for personal DNA, it's $595 for legal. And the mom's OB must consent to taking the sample.

The main problem is not the prenatal testing... The main problem is that nowadays there is
growing number of women which moral values decrease . I love reading explanations as "I had sex with John once,Peter and I had sex three times,I had sex with Joseph two times,I had sex with Bill four times, I had also sex with an unknown man once ...I am not sure but I could have been ovulating more likely by Bill but I am not sure...By the way I will name Steven as the father because his income is bigger than others and I will be able to get much child support."

It is related to Seek and You Shall Find's post,"So what happens when the baby is born and DNA proves you aren't the father? You just say oops sorry for making you have a child you don't want and sorry to the child for forcing it to be born and live the next "torturous 50 years" to parents who don't want it?"

Just one more thought here... don't you think all the organizations that have spent years and years trying to make abortions illegal have already presented this reasoning to the courts and been denied? Until the law on abortion itself changes this unfortunately is probably going to be the way it is.

And the morals of those men who slept with that woman? Because I am willing to bet a lot of money that none of them could say "I thought we were in a committed relationship, before we had sex we talked about it and decided that if it somehow resulted in a pregnancy we would both be okay with that." Come on, men are not less blameless. If you don't want any chance of a pregnant woman don't have sex with her! She can't get pregnant on her own.

My point in this is only that you can not make blanket statements about these situations. Not every woman who is unsure of the paternity is some evil whore and not every man is a victim. But it is never acceptable for a woman to use her pregnancy or the threat to terminate it against a man. I agree with that totally.

Blanket statements-:eek: :eek: :eek:
Paternity fraud rampant in U.S.30% of those named as fathers bilked of child support unjustly

Source: WorldNetDaily: Paternity fraud rampant in U.S. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871)

You said it is the main problem so, yes, I say blanket statement. (But it isn't just women's morals who have decreased) Hypothetically, there is a married couple who have been in a very rocky relationship but still having sex, one day the husband tells the wife he has decided he is done with her and is getting a divorce, the devastated wife seeks comfort from a long standing male friend and in a moment of weakness and desperation ends up in bed with him. Some time later she comes to find out she is pregnant and realizes she is unsure of which one may be the father. Is she a moral less whore? I wouldn't consider her that. Stupid maybe but not moral less. Someone who doesn't sleep around , values marriage and monogamy but someone who in a moment of utter pain sought to ease that pain in another's arms. Not brilliant but it happens.

My point is just that not every woman who is unsure of the paternity sleeps with this one, and that one oh and a couple more just for good measure. And not every woman who is unsure of paternity is someone whose morals have decreased. She can be someone who has just made a huge mistake that is very out of character for her.

And paternity fraud for the purposes of bilking someone of child support wasn't the issue. Or whether her morals that got her pregnant in the first place are at issue. We are talking about proposing a law where a putative father will have a right to keep a woman from having an abortion. My point was that in th eyes of the law he is a putative father because unless it is proven by way of DNA he is only that, a possible not proven legal father. In order to have a right to the unborn child he would need to first establish his legal right to that child by proving his paternity. So, my question is valid. My argument is not that she is someone who sleeps around and doesn't know who the father is. My argument is that if the state were to allow this to become law they would then have to ask what happens if... by some chance the putative father we gave rights to turns out to not be the father? As long as abortion is legal the state will realize they have just made abortion illegal without changing the original law and have made it possible for any man to claim to be the putative father in order to stop a woman from having an abortion that she would otherwise have a legal right to have.
What would compel the state to justify enacting a law in which would provide for a man to take away the right of a woman to have an abortion where there is no legal proof he is the father thereby giving him equal rights to the unborn child?
I think you just have to be prepared to argue all the possible rebuttals.

Once again Xeno, I'm inclined to agree with you. But I bet I get chewed up and spit out for this one! Family law adheres to some of the most blatant double standards in our legal system.

What I find distressing is that Xeno feels that his wife is being highly unfair to him, and his response is to try and change things so that other kids in the future will be even worse off than they are under the current system. It doesn't really sound like he cares about his kid and what her future is going to be like at all. Or at least not enough to fight to make it better.

I mean, I could see trying to make changes that would make fathers getting custody easier, but these amendments really do seem oriented to getting fathers off the hook, and nothing else.

What I find distressing is that Xeno feels that his wife is being highly unfair to him, and his response is to try and change things so that other kids in the future will be even worse off than they are under the current system. It doesn't really sound like he cares about his kid and what her future is going to be like at all. Or at least not enough to fight to make it better.

I mean, I could see trying to make changes that would make fathers getting custody easier, but these amendments really do seem oriented to getting fathers off the hook, and nothing else.
Wrong point #1: I never married the psycho. Wrong point #2, I'm am fighting a front that is a concept called, 'the wounded healer', and out to help the future from not only making my mistake, but should they make it, they can have more rights. I made a mistake giving that woman (girl) five seconds of my time. I compounded the mistake because my other brain did all the thinking (best of my life EVER). Now, after a year relationship, I got the psycho pregnant and she gave birth to the only child I will ever have (I've since been neutered).

So now I am being punished for my mistake, as I have done all to work WITH the mother on this, but she has only delivered threats and lies. There is some other reading on my position that is apparent that you haven't seen. This is again why I said before that I probably shouldn't have placed these amendments here, because there is too much to explain. But my friend Froggy, you're close, but not yet there...

XenoSapien

No Xeno, what you want is an out for what you've done. You want everyone else to bear the "burden" of what you've done. You say you've spent so much time in research then you should be able to give it the very best effort you can and file yourself. If you've done so much research then you should know the forms necessary to ask the court to enforce the laws you have a right to. But you haven't and you won't. Until you attempt to enforce those laws and find them faulty then you have nothing to complain about except for your own poor judgment.

The only reason you are starting to believe that you shouldn't have posted your amendments here is because you are finding that if put to a broad general public you are not going to get the support you are hoping for because they simply have to many holes in them and are aimed at being gender biased.

When you actually aim your goals at truly bettering the position of the child and not specifically just one parent or the other you will find some support.

No, I'd say this is not correct. As an example that I have to explain more, froggy7 wouldn't have made a wild guess that I was married, and was just 'trying to get out of it'.

You say 'many holes'. My proposal is only so long, and I'm afraid that I don't see as many holes as you do. And if you look at the original question, I'm only asking on here as to whether it is fair or not. I'm saying nothing about promoting support.


The current system is gender biased in favor of the woman and you know this. So a few rights for the men overrides the courts current prejudice against men, and makes a balance.

XenoSapien

No Xeno, what you want is an out for what you've done. You want everyone else to bear the "burden" of what you've done. You say you've spent so much time in research then you should be able to give it the very best effort you can and file yourself. If you've done so much research then you should know the forms necessary to ask the court to enforce the laws you have a right to. But you haven't and you won't. Until you attempt to enforce those laws and find them faulty then you have nothing to complain about except for your own poor judgment.
This illustrates my point of your arrogant 'belief' of what I am trying to do, and again shows that there is too much to explain. This is totally dead wrong, and I'm sorry you don't see the obvious.

In your very shallow and arrogant view, you 'guess' that I want "everyone else to bear the burden of what I've done". This is so wrong, there is no point engaging you on this small belief of yours.

I have done much research and did make an attempt to do this myself. But the bigger picture makes far more sense. The mother will make false allegations eventually, and I will have my rights to my daughter taken from me, lose jobs and be labeled.

What I think is you don't believe the mother is really as bad as I've described, and I think you spend too much energy on this, and it is clouding your rationale and causing you to make guesses.

And again, arrogant. I'm not complaining, I've simply drawn something up, and asking as to whether it's fair. But it has ended up making me bring excerpts from my blog and website, where my position can be found more pure and the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing more clear.

XenoSapien

I think the point that you're missing is this:

I gave up EVERYTHING for my child. I would have risked arrest, lost jobs, jail time, whatever it took, to make SURE my child was in a safe and happy atmosphere.

You seem unwilling to give up anything, or take any chances, to try to get this child from a woman you deem as psychotic and a compulsive liar.

Because of this attitude, and the attitude that money would make the difference here, we have no pity on you.

Having a child, loving a child, means giving up ANYTHING to make sure that child is safe. All you seem willing to give up is um... nothing! What you're trying to do is make WOMEN give up their rights! As a woman---um NO! Forget it!

If you truly love your child and want what is best for it... then FIGHT for your child.

Anything else is just bitterness and revenge, in my opinion.

"You know...whether religious or secular, the things you are suggesting set back women's rights by a few centuries."

Yet as it stands now, it's like that only the sexes have been switched. It is the men who are profoundly persecuted, and I am only looking to encourage a once and for all balance.

See the other post I did as to what I've already done to fight.

As for the "X's side of things", here is who you will be attempting to be fair to:

---10/29/97

Count 01: Domestic Battery/Physical Contact; Class A Misdemeanor

This particular offense is one that says a lot to me. It wasn't just battery, it was battery on her OWN MOTHER. According to the docket information, "Defendant to have NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER with ******** *********."

We are talking here about a woman who already has two girls. Granted, at this current time and the last that I've heard, the oven is making plans to have these two girls move in the home along with her new boyfriend. These girls have been raised, for at least the past three years at the least by grandma, and now their mother will finally raise them like she should have all along.
But will these girls have a developed, life-long profound level of animosity, that they will end up doing the same thing to their mother? And will the child we have, should mom have custody, end up doing the same thing?

In March of 1999, the docket ends with saying that the "Court finds that the People have not proven their case".

---09/11/98

Count 01: Resist/Obstruct peace officer
Count 02: False report of offense

This docket talks about how "The Court notes Defendant is currently on 12 mos. Conditional Discharge in 97 ** **** for domestic battery."

In October of 1998, the oven tenders a plea of 'guilty' to disorderly conduct as set forth in Count 02. This plea was accepted by the court, and the oven spent two days in jail with no time served. Apparently, "On People's motion, Count 01 is dismissed."

---07/02/99
Count 01: Forcible Entry & Detainer

This charge is evidentally submitted by the Housing Authority. I had no idea about this one, but apparently it talks about her being evicted from a residence.

---08/27/99

Count 01: Resisting/ Obstructing Police Officer

It looks like a warrant was issued in March of 2000 for her arrest. But, as is the pattern, all charges were dismissed by July of 2001.

XenoSapien

I must admit, if the subject of all of these summonses that you've cited here was a man, the outcome would most likely have been very different. But I am curious as to how you managed to acquire all of this information.

You said it is the main problem so, yes, I say blanket statement. (But it isn't just women's morals who have decreased) Hypothetically, there is a married couple who have been in a very rocky relationship but still having sex, one day the husband tells the wife he has decided he is done with her and is getting a divorce, the devastated wife seeks comfort from a long standing male friend and in a moment of weakness and desperation ends up in bed with him. Some time later she comes to find out she is pregnant and realizes she is unsure of which one may be the father. Is she a moral less whore? I wouldn't consider her that. Stupid maybe but not moral less. Someone who doesn't sleep around , values marriage and monogamy but someone who in a moment of utter pain sought to ease that pain in another's arms. Not brilliant but it happens.

My point is just that not every woman who is unsure of the paternity sleeps with this one, and that one oh and a couple more just for good measure. And not every woman who is unsure of paternity is someone whose morals have decreased. She can be someone who has just made a huge mistake that is very out of character for her.

And paternity fraud for the purposes of bilking someone of child support wasn't the issue. Or whether or not her morals that got her pregnant in the first place are at issue. We are talking about proposing a law where a putative father will have a right to keep a woman from having an abortion. My point was that in th eyes of the law he is a putative father because unless it is proven by way of DNA he is only that, a possible not proven legal father. In order to have a right to the unborn child he would need to first establish his legal right to that child by proving his paternity. So, my question is valid. My argument is not that she is someone who sleeps around and doesn't know who the father is. My argument is that if the state were to allow this to become law they would then have to ask what happens if...by some chance the putative father we gave rights to turns out to not be the father? As long as abortion is legal the state will realize they have just made abortion illegal without changing the original law and have made it possible for any man to claim to be the putative father in order to stop a woman from having an abortion that she would otherwise have a legal right to have.
What would compel the state to justify enacting a law in which would provide for a man to take away the right of a woman to have an abortion where there is no legal proof he is the father thereby giving him equal rights to the unborn child?
I think you just have to be prepared to argue all the possible rebuttals.

Actually, if you look at the history behind it all, the philosophy of ancient societies was that the father had a right to his offspring and the mother didn't have the right to deny him that. This research is noted in the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision. As for an unproven putative father, we all know that any alleged father can sign an acknowledgement of paternity without a DNA test being performed. In so doing he assumes all the rights and responsibilities of fatherhood. So it is altogether feasible that a putative father could sign an acknowledgement of paternity prior to the birth of the child, thereby accepting the responsibility and the rights of fatherhood where the unborn child in question is concerned. Of course, in so doing, the putative father becomes the legal father an forfeits his right to ever contest paternity in the future via a DNA test.

I think the point that you're missing is this:

I gave up EVERYTHING for my child. I would have risked arrest, lost jobs, jail time, whatever it took, to make SURE my child was in a safe and happy atmosphere.

You seem unwilling to give up anything, or take any chances, to try to get this child from a woman you deem as psychotic and a compulsive liar.

Because of this attitude, and the attitude that money would make the difference here, we have no pity on you.

Having a child, loving a child, means giving up ANYTHING to make sure that child is safe. All you seem willing to give up is um...nothing! What you're trying to do is make WOMEN give up their rights! As a woman---um NO!! Forget it!

If you truly love your child and want what is best for it....then FIGHT for your child.

Anything else is just bitterness and revenge, in my opinion.I can see that you ladies are requiring me to repeat myself, so here it is again about "Fighting":
What I Have Done For Nine Months...
(no particular order)


1) Made contact with Illinois Legal Services. Was told that they do not help those that are not Illinois citizens.

2) Made contact with Indiana Legal Services. Was initially ignored. Then told that they do not have jurisdiction.

3) Made contact with Illinois Pro-Bono Services. Ignored.

4) Made contact with Indiana Pro-Bono Services. Told that Indiana does not have jurisdiction.

5) Made contact with Indiana Attorney General's Office. Responded to within two weeks. Told that they could do nothing because of jurisdiction, but offered ideas.

6) Made contact with Illinois Attorney General's Office. Initially ignored. Then after about five months and after Anna's birth, sent by snail-mail, a list of people who may help, but they are people who have already ignored me, or have told me that I am not an Illinois citizen.

7) Made contact with Community Legal via online. Signed up, and was told they would help me. They never made me a client and took my money for no services rendered. They were fired.

8) Made multiple attempts for online free legal advice; most of which were returned as unanswered.

9) Contacted by phone and fax, Maury Povich. Was told to get a public defender, then was hung up on.

10) Sent letter to local newspaper to the "Dear Annie" section. Ignored and never responded to or printed.

11) Sent letter to Pastor John Hagee about my situation. Responded to with helpful prayers and hope.

12) Sent mass emails to multiple custody attorney's in Illinois. Three out of twenty responded. Only one offered help at 500$ as a retainer. Have not re-contacted the only one who offered this help. Cannot afford services.

13) Spent countless hours on research of the Illinois custody laws in pursuit of self-representation and the Illinois law.

14) Spent countless hours on research of the Indiana custody laws in pursuit of self-representation and the Indiana law.

15) Signed up for the Illinois Putative Father Registry; in fear, as stated by you, that you would allow boyfriend to adopt our child.

16) Signed up for the Indiana Putative Father Registry; in fear, as stated by you, that you would allow boyfriend to adopt our child.

17) Contacted National Brotherhood of Father's Rights. Received mass emails about possible options and helpful tools. Could not afford actual services, but thankful about options.

18) Contacted private investigator to check into whether mother was pregnant. Could not afford services.

19) Contacted the law offices of Cordell and Cordell. Had one-hour counsiltation with attorney. Could not afford services.

20) Created blogsite:


21) Created Website:


So don't tell me I'm not fighting/haven't fought. I don't think you know what happens when even an allegation is leveled at a man for molestation. The psycho-b**** will DO IT, and I will lose because of the judicial prejudice, then lose my job and my housing.

And since companies will see that on my record, just how in the hell do you expect me to fund a lawyer to get that over turned, huh? I've already at this point been turned down by the services who claim to help, you really think they're going to help someone who is now being accused of pedophilia? Use your head.

XenoSapien

I must admit, if the subject of all of these summonses that you've cited here was a man, the outcome would most likely have been very different. But I am curious as to how you managed to acquire all of this information.Freedom of information act. What is funny is that in my state, they charge you a fee. In Illinois, they don't. And during one of our last conversations, the mother told me she didn't realize her record was really that long. She saw it for herself.

XenoSapien

Here's another entry that may interest you, since you ladies are too lazy to see the real story instead of your misguided assumptions:

I've spent some time thinking about the next article to write about here on the Forest. I've decided to keep it alive, and continue writing even though conversation between momma and I has been completely severed.

I decided that I would let you in on what a man that was put in my position, under this great adversity experienced the whole nine-months of the pregnancy. The following that I have written is our communication throughout the pregnancy time period:


June 2nd, 2006 Doctor's assessment 'Night of Conception'.

June 24th, 2006 Drove to Illinois, witnessed momma taking pregnancy test; 10pm Illinois time.

July 2nd, 2006 Momma lets me know of the baby's due date: Feb. 23rd, 2007.

July 17th, 2006 Momma tells me that she aborts baby.

July 18th, 2006 Had one-hour consultation with Cordell and Cordell.

July 29th, 2006 Momma tells me that the baby still lives.

July 30th, 2006 Momma tells me she will announce engagement to new boyfriend to her family.

August 11th, 2006 Momma says she accidentally called, meant to call her aunt who has my same name.

August 16th, 2006 Momma tells me that her doctor says there is a possibility of twins.

August 18th, 2006 Had long phone conversation. Made appeal to be present at moment of birth.

August 31st, 2006 Called for ultra-sound request. She refuses to mail it, but says that I have to drive to Illinois to pick it up. Agreed to come to Illinois September 9th.

September 3rd, 2006 Momma calls and says she wants me to move to Illinois. Says how nice she'll be. Almost begs; says she picks me over new boyfriend/fiance.

September 4th, 2006 Momma calls and tells me her mother has Lupus, and has one year to live. Tells me its OK if I don't move to Illinois, but she won't let the baby stay in Indianapolis overnight.

September 8th, 2006 Very emotional night. Momma explains that she only loves boyfriend as a friend and wants to give up on being pregnant.

September 9th, 2006 The day I was supposed to drive to Illinois to pick up ultra- sound picture. Instead, stayed at home and talked to her on the phone. Negative, hateful and y mood as usual. Nothing in her has changed.

September 13th, 2006 Leave a 'gamble' voice message, saying that I think she is lying based on her history with me.

September 19th, 2006 Momma says she just now got my message, and tells me that I can stay away from she and her baby.

September 20th, 2006 Nasty phone conversation from the both of us. She says she will file harassment charges if I call again. I say I will file harassment charges if she calls again.

September 21st, 2006 Momma calls early morning. Harassment charges filed.

September 30th, 2006 Momma calls to tell me the sex of the baby, but assumes that I don't care to know. I remind her of the harassment charges.

November 19th, 2006 Mysterious voicemail from a 'restricted' phone number.

November 24th, 2006 'Restricted' phone number call at noon.

December 1st, 2006 'Restricted' phone number call at 2:30pm.

December 2nd, 2006 Momma calls and says she needs to tell me something about the baby; 11:30pm.

December 5th, 2006 'Restricted' phone number call at 2:30pm.

December 6th, 2006 'Restricted' phone number call at 1:30pm.

December 24th, 2006 Momma's youngest daughter calls to wish me a Merry Christmas; says to call mom when I get this message; 10:58pm.

December 31st, 2006 Momma calls at 5:32 am. I do not answer.

January 6th, 2007 Called momma's mom at 10am. Wanted me to not call her anymore; that the issue is between momma and I. Tells me she believes the baby to be the X-husband's. I sacrifice my harassment charges and call Momma almost an hour later. We have a two-hour discussion, and she still insists on doing it the hard way, catering the advice of her mother. Talks about moving to Atlanta or Florida.

January 12th, 2007 I call Momma again. Had discussion with no fighting. I again pursue doing all of this the easy way. She says that I should have thought of that before I stated that we would take it to court. I repeated that I only announced court because she threatened that I would never know our child. Momma agrees to allow communication once a week.

January 21st, 2007 Momma calls about the Bears and Colts in the superbowl. Stable to good conversation.

January 24th, 2007 I call momma at 10:30am Indiana time. Stable conversation. Make half-serious attempt to have her move
to Indiana. Still firm about the idea that I should have moved
to Illinois the minute I found out I was to be a father.

February 2nd, 2007 Momma calls. Stable conversation. Tells me the baby is born--then admits to just kidding around.

February 3rd, 2007 Momma calls at 12:50 am. I do not answer.

February 11th, 2007 My website "Babies As Weapons" is launched.

February 16th, 2007 Momma calls around midnight, tells me my daughter was born on the 15th. Also admits that she doesn't know me.

February 19th, 2007 I call momma. She tells me she's on the other phone, then hangs up on me.

February 21st, 2007 Momma calls around 2:30pm, but my phone says "no duration".

February 23rd, 2007 Momma calls around midnight. Admits lying about the actual date of baby's birth. Also admits that she knows she has lied to me many times. After three hours, she sends
six pictures of the baby.

February 24th, 2007 Momma calls at 1:30am. I do not answer.


********************************

I know that it is true that during the pregnancy period, the mother is on a "hormonal roller-coaster". Hence, inconsistent, erratic behavior is expected. However, if you were to read my previous posts that are all before momma's pregnancy, you'll find that her behavior is already inconsistent and erratic. There is no difference between her behavior during pregnancy or before her pregnancy.

This dangerously-wild nature is actually who she really is; the pregnancy inspired nothing but her nastiness to rise to its full potential.

XenoSapien

... And a bit of proof that I am a good man who is and has been fair, who has tried desperately to work with her on this VERY serious issue:

Thursday, September 28, 2006
Now that you have read my very first blog, the one that really shows the inspiration behind it all, I feel it's time to tell you a little about me as well as the birth mother with when we first met.

I am just a regular guy who goes to work everyday of the week. For a long time, I have been what I like to call a 'Fred Flinstone', and refused to ever be on line; even at the threat of the government. Any of my friends that know me well will support my comment. I believed that I was doing fine without computer access, and combining that with my 'survivor-no-matter-what' modus operandi, I never cared to even examine the idea.

Then I met her, had ups and downs, and have decide to become George Jetson. This meeting, no doubt, is one of the most profound events that has ever occurred to me in my whole life. I never saw it coming, as is usually the case when I meet someone special. And as I am going through all this now with a possible child on the way, I have been writing a journal to my unborn child. In it, I tell my child the whole story about its mother and I. I re-read it a hundred times, and realize that it is the best description of al the events about us. So with that in mind, I thought I would share an excerpt from that journal:


"...On November 22nd, 2004, I met a woman of such great
presence, power and potency, that all that I called my
world disintegrated instantly and morphed into a vision
only previously dreamed about by likely droves of men.
A surreal existence of a human being that humbled
most men, as this woman emitted a vibe without saying
a word or shifting a somatic motion of any kind. Truly,
my attraction and interest was automatic and definitive.
At this time, I was in Illinois on a new career opportunity.
An opportunity that I anticipated as a big step up in my
field of work, as I was promised further knowledge I had
beforehand asked for. This eventually turned out to not
be the case, but I stuck it out for as long as I thought
I could. But what I never believed would happen in all
my wildest dreams and nightmares actually did. I met
your mother.
As I hopefully wish, you are aware that my birthday is
November the 21st. And if you are also aware of my
field of work as a maintenance technician, you know
that there are times when my job requires me to take
what is called 24-hour emergency call. They give you
a pager or cell phone, and it is your responsibility to
answer these devices at any time to know when
someone needed your help. On my actual 32nd birthday,
which fell on a Sunday, I was on my last night of emergency
call. So when Monday the 22nd was born, I took the
night to celebrate my birthday a day late.
Being a single man at that time and previously noticing
this establishment within the first month that I had set
foot in Illinois, I decided that I would go alone to this
gentleman's club to celebrate this occassion. Up to this
point in my life, I had been to a gentleman's club only
once, and that was with friends and I was turning
30 years old.
I walked in like the rookie, but yes, a veteran of a regular
bar scene. So as I headed for the bar to order a drink,
I was stopped by a voice from behind me. I turned and
faced a man who asked me if I was a member, and I
replied no. He informed me that this was a members-only
night, and asked if I would like to be one. I said yes and
asked how much it would cost. He told me 20 dollars, and
that it would last for a year. I agreed, and followed him to
the desk by the front door he occupied. I then filled out
the paperwork to make it official, and he told me to have
a good time. I then reacquired my directive to go to
the bar and buy my first drink.
I moved to the bar and ordered a beer. The barmaid
served me my drink and I paid her the monies owed. Now
being a full-blooded male, my thoughts directed me to
take a look at the scantily clad female on the stage
dancing. I didn't even turn my head half of the way to
that direction before I caught the eye of the most
beautiful woman I had ever seen in all my life. For
a second, I thought I was looking at a young Janet Jackson.
This magnificent icon of beauty was wearing an ankle-long
purple dress, with Cleopatra straight styled jet-black
hair that danced with the center of her back. She was three
or four seats away from where I was at the bar and
looking right back at me. For a split second, my heart
jumped and my world paused and everything was
completely tuned out. There was nothing at all except
her. I had been instantly locked in.
So as to not look like I was staring, I continued to move
my eyes in the direction of the stage. I took a brief look
at the dancer working her dance of seduction, then moved
to the nearest table and sat down. I looked back to where
I saw the woman of my type of perfection, and noticed
that she had moved from the bar, and was approaching.
We again locked eyes, sending all available butterflies in
my stomach to fly boundless.
What was also striking was the speed of her movement. It
was noticeably slow, dream-like and surreal. With all this
already dad-perfect vision of exceptional beauty, something
equally powerful and overwhelming doubled the potent dose
already seen. Her smile would make Job smile in his darkest
hour. World peace could be achieved, perpetual motion
solved, and all mysteries of mankind realized just because
of this woman's smile. I previously never thought a smile
could be that strong and do so much. I was captured entirely.
She asked if she could sit down with me, and I most definitely
said yes. She did, and we conversed and continued to
talk for the rest of the night. She of course had to make
her money and do her share of the stage dancing, but
no matter what she did, she always returned to my table.
We asked each other all the right questions, laughed and
talked very well. Her presence and speech and everything
about her put me in a state of psychological utopian
peace. Only once before has a woman ever put me
in this state of mind.
I told a friend a type of description I had for your mother
once. It was like I was an archeologist seeking out
evidence of dinosaurs. And previously for thousands
of years, an extremely rare dinosaur was still trying
to be fully discovered. But up to this point, bones
that had been found and constructed for this rare
dinosaur had been put together with a missing bone.
A 'key' bone that completed the mankind-long puzzle
of this rare dinosaur. I discovered this bone on this
night celebrating my birthday, and it was named
********.
As the night grew late, I posed the question of asking her
for her phone number. This caused her to stutter
with the unintelligible "ummm", and I quickly
remedied with asking if I could give her mine. She
immediately said yes, and I did.
The most profound question that I asked all night was
the question of her marital status. She had told me that
her divorce was final as of about a week ago.
That her night was one of liberation and celebration, too.
I am a man who has always openly trusted people when
I first meet them. That I have no initial reason not
too, so that I always know that from the start, I was
open and non-judgemental. I gave her that 100
percent trust at day one.
The very next day, I recieved a phone call on my first
required 15 minute workday break. It was your
mother, with more questions and talk. We arranged
going to a regular bar together near the end of
this week and spending more time getting to know
each other. We did, and by both of our accounts,
was the best conversation we ever had in our one
year and seven month total history..."
I am currently reflecting on what I have written above. No matter what happens from here on out in my life; losing my mind in old age, this event will never be erased. Ever.

::EDIT:: in response to post #50. Sorry NeedKarma I'm not that computer savvy I guess, I don't know how to do a hyperlink from an individual thread in a post. I didn't like reposting a long post either, just wasn't sure how to do it otherwise. Hopefully this resolves it.

I am sorry I must have missed it... where does it say you self represented and filed to establish paternity with the court? You do not have to have an attorney to do this. All you need is the form, obtainable through the clerk of the court and the filing fee (you can save for a computer you can save for a filing fee).

Please don't start posting your lengthy blog entries here. Put a simple one line hyperlink if you must refer to previously written material.

Actually tawny I was referring to Xeno's post.

Ahhhh well my reposting it didn't help either. :)

Xeno--you scare me.

Because you don't have the money to fight for your child (um... ever hear of a LOAN?), you're taking it out on everyone else, and making a case that takes away rights, rather than grants them.

You say you have no bitterness for your ex, and this is about the child, yet all I see here is anger towards your ex, and lack of drive to gain custody of your child. Money or not, I can not see how leaving your child in that environment would be good for the child. You seem unwilling to sacrifice anything for the welfare of your child--your name, your money, your job, whatever.

You say she'd lie and accuse you of horrible things in court. Well, tell that to a lawyer! If they know she's going to lie, they can trip her up in one IN COURT.

You have rights, you just have to be willing to go into debt to assert them. Or give up your job and move to Illinois, where the child is, to get more help!

I have no sympathy for you, nor do I have pity. I hope your plans fail utterly, because they are so poorly thought through for the greater good that it's not even funny.

You talk about not using a child as a weapon. Well, what exactly are YOU doing? You're trying to make it so that a child can be used against its mother, even before it is born!

Yes, our laws are flawed, and in some cases a parent gets custody that probably never should. But you, sir, sound as though you are as psychotic and obsessive in your own way as the child's mother is. She may have a criminal background, but I've know a lot of people who have turned their lives around for the sake of a child.

Please don't start posting your lengthy blog entries here. Put a simple one line hyperlink if you must refer to previously written material.
Please don't ask questions that I've already answered that require long answers. But I'll stop now, cause I'm bored with repetition.

XenoSapien

::EDIT:: in response to post #50. Sorry NeedKarma I'm not that computer savvy I guess, I don't know how to do a hyperlink from an individual thread in a post. I didn't like reposting a long post either, just wasn't sure how to do it otherwise. Hopefully this resolves it.

I am sorry I must have missed it...where does it say you self represented and filed to establish paternity with the court? You do not have to have an attorney to do this. All you need is the form, obtainable through the clerk of the court and the filing fee (you can save for a computer you can save for a filing fee).
One more time, for those who conveniently ignore what I've already written: If I pursue this, I will lose everything, not be a father and die homeless. Get the picture yet?

XenoSapien

Xeno, I have asked you before in PM to please NOT bring your crusade here. While many of us can sympathize with your plight, there is not really much we can do to help. If you cannot afford an attorney, can you at least take out a loan?

Have you considered counseling? Therapy may help you in getting over this.

Xeno--you scare me.

Because you don't have the money to fight for your child (um...ever hear of a LOAN?), you're taking it out on everyone else, and making a case that takes away rights, rather than grants them.

You say you have no bitterness for your ex, and this is about the child, yet all I see here is anger towards your ex, and lack of drive to gain custody of your child. Money or not, I can not see how leaving your child in that environment would be good for the child. You seem unwilling to sacrifice anything for the welfare of your child--your name, your money, your job, whatever.

You say she'd lie and accuse you of horrible things in court. Well, tell that to a lawyer! If they know she's going to lie, they can trip her up in one IN COURT.

You have rights, you just have to be willing to go into debt to assert them. Or give up your job and move to Illinois, where the child is, to get more help!

I have no sympathy for you, nor do I have pity. I hope your plans fail utterly, because they are so poorly thought through for the greater good that it's not even funny.

You talk about not using a child as a weapon. Well, what exactly are YOU doing? You're trying to make it so that a child can be used against its mother, even before it is born!

Yes, our laws are flawed, and in some cases a parent gets custody that probably never should. But you, sir, sound as though you are as psychotic and obsessive in your own way as the child's mother is. She may have a criminal background, but I've know a lot of people who have turned their lives around for the sake of a child.We are all in charge of our emotions. If you're scared, that's your problem and your issue to deal with.

"Because you don't have the money to fight for your child (um...ever hear of a LOAN?), you're taking it out on everyone else, and making a case that takes away rights, rather than grants them. "

--I've already tried loans, but my credit is so bad, nobody will touch me.

"You say you have no bitterness for your ex, and this is about the child, yet all I see here is anger towards your ex, and lack of drive to gain custody of your child. Money or not, I can not see how leaving your child in that environment would be good for the child. You seem unwilling to sacrifice anything for the welfare of your child--your name, your money, your job, whatever."

--Most of what was posted was last year. Most of the bitterness is gone now. Look at the dates of the blogs. Hmm, you must have missed the listed that I've posted twice now about what I have done... again, sick of repetition. PRISON is the conclusion for fighting for my daughter. How many times do people have to repeat things to you before it registers? For the very last time, the mother is extremely vindictive, and since she knows I will not take her back, she will strike with great vengeance propelled by her talent for lying. I'm not going to repeat this again.

"I have no sympathy for you, nor do I have pity. I hope your plans fail utterly, because they are so poorly thought through for the greater good that it's not even funny. "

--I have no desire to have sympathy or pity, and it's obvious you want me to fail. All I asked for with this proposal, again repeating, is for a yes or no or fair or not fair. Not for some 'under the lamp' drilling of which the person still remains lacking in sufficient data for the subject.

"You talk about not using a child as a weapon. Well, what exactly are YOU doing? You're trying to make it so that a child can be used against its mother, even before it is born!"

--So it's OK for her, but not me? Besides, she is the one with the physical control and I am not.

"Yes, our laws are flawed, and in some cases a parent gets custody that probably never should. But you, sir, sound as though you are as psychotic and obsessive in your own way as the child's mother is. She may have a criminal background, but I've know a lot of people who have turned their lives around for the sake of a child."

--90% of the time, the woman has the power in the courts so stop acting like it's any kind of fair. Your assessment of me is entirely without merit and means absolutely nothing. No woman will ever again tell me they will mail me a fetus, and expect nothing to become of it. Maybe you don't have enough compassion or emotion or experience to have someone tell you convincingly that your child has been murdered when they are in fact alive.

XenoSapien

I'm pretty much done with this discussion, because I'm only being 'baited' and forced to repeat myself, and it's getting old. J9, my feelings won't be hurt if you decide to close this topic.

Xenosapien

Thank you Xeno, and done.

This thread is now closed.