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Lenovo
Jul 26, 2007, 01:05 AM
Yes, cloning is illegal, but if it were to be legalised, who would, or would not be against it being legalised, and why? (or why not)

PlatonicInsanity
Jul 28, 2007, 12:14 PM
If cloning were legalized.. well there'd have to be a good reason for it. So far no cloning experiments have worked well - yes they can clone an animal and what not but it dies pretty quickly compared to the original life span it should have had. I guess I'm against it unless there's a good enough reason that we'd need to have clones running around.

Lenovo
Jul 29, 2007, 09:45 AM
Think of this, lets say, instead of a draft or what have you, they legalize cloning for the military and such, so that way, no one really loses a member of their family.

jvibe101
Jul 29, 2007, 07:15 PM
That's a good idea but what prevents those clones from wanting their own life.I say it would be too dangerous. Its like identity theft now... imagine a clone running around just like you actin' a fool.Or worse if those clones we create decide they want to work with our enemies rather than with us.:cool:

J_9
Jul 29, 2007, 07:19 PM
Yes, cloning is illegal, but if it were to be legalised, who would, or would not be against it being legalised, and why? (or why not)

Nope, and who are we to play God?

This is a very emotional and debatable subject. But I don't think it is our place to play God.

Skell
Jul 29, 2007, 07:43 PM
Some would argue J_9 that we play God every day in our emergency rooms and hospitals throughout the world. Just on a different level.

I agree that it is a very emotionally and debatable subject and one that isn't simple to address.

I certainly don't agree with it for the purpose of creating armies.

J_9
Jul 29, 2007, 08:19 PM
Skell, I have to totally agree with you on the ERs and hospitals around the world. Yeah, in a sense we do play God.

But to create a human in a test tube for reasons of creating armies, etc, it is my belief that it should not be done.

It is only my belief that cloning should not be done in any way shape or form.

magprob
Jul 29, 2007, 09:51 PM
That's crazy, cloning for the military! What is the point? Pure insanity!

bushg
Jul 29, 2007, 09:58 PM
I think illegal, Some things are just to damn weird and this is one of them. Hmm although another one of me might be nice.

rankrank55
Jul 29, 2007, 10:14 PM
Wow, cloning for the military is just inhumane! I don't think we will ever need to clone and if for some odd reason we had to, I would be 100% against it.

magprob
Jul 29, 2007, 10:18 PM
Well yea, think about it. Creating humans and then sending them to slaughter. If that ever happens, we need to change our government quick! They will clone cows and sheep for food soon. The same as GM corn and soy beans. We can't stop it.

Lenovo
Jul 30, 2007, 03:49 PM
Wow, cloning for the military is just inhumane!.


True, it may be somewhat inhumane, but isn't going to war and killing for oil or what not just as inhumane? Couldn't you classify war as being just as inhumane as cloning people so no one really suffers a loss to the army, military, navy, what ever?

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 04:08 PM
Ever seen the film 'the island' where people are cloned for body parts when the original becomes diseased or whatever I think that's a good enough reason to clone just keep them all in induced comas so they are not actually 'living' as such, and as in the film it would cost a lot so only the richest ofpeople would be able to afford a clone, so the government if they did clone for the army would not specficatly clone anybody they would mess with their DNA to make them more capable in battle conditions,e.g. higher stamina greater eyesight less independent thought, make it imune to poisons,theyd make it like a GM human, 'the perfect warrior' type being so technically it wouldn't be human, plus its unlikely because it would cost so much, much cheeper just to recuit people

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 04:34 PM
Cloning isn't a nice thought at all. What a very dangerous practice it is and could become if adopted by the wrong people. I see stem cell research as having merit. But complete human cloning. No thanks! That is too much!

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 04:40 PM
Skell you wuss

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 04:42 PM
skell you wuss

Haha! Funny! That isn't the first time I've been called a wuss. LOL!

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 04:44 PM
So why the problem with full human cloning

Canada_Sweety
Jul 30, 2007, 04:45 PM
Cloning...... I think God would be angry that people created new life and would maybe smight said people. Something I would rather not tamper with:p

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 04:48 PM
Well just to address your argument the thought of cloning a super human to go to war / slaughter just doesn't sit well with me.

But then again I'm a wus. ;)

Why don't you have a problem?

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 04:51 PM
Cloning...... I think God would be angry that people created new life and would maybe smight said people. Something I would rather not tamper with:p
Its not creating a new life its more like copying the old one, oh and depends if you believe in god

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 04:53 PM
I don't believe in God. It isn't a religious viewpoint I can assure you of that.

When we copy something essentially we are still creating something. It may be similar / same to what we already have. But it has still been created.

Canada_Sweety
Jul 30, 2007, 04:54 PM
Also true...
But I still think we shouldn'ttamper with cloning & such.

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 04:55 PM
Well just to address your argument the thought of cloning a super human to go to war / slaughter just doesnt sit well with me.

But then again im a wus. ;)

Why don't you have a problem?

War is the natural order of life, get used to it

Besides isn't slaughter what we are doing in going to war any way so with clones were not actually losing people of the community, think of what I put in my coment as a bio robot, with no actual reason to exist.
I don't have a problem with it because I can't see any problems that cannot be overcome

Lenovo
Jul 30, 2007, 05:12 PM
besides isnt slaughter what we are doing in going to war any way so with clones were not actually loosing people of the comunity, think of what i put in my coment as a bio robot, with no actual reason to exist.
i dont have a problem with it because i can't see any problems that cannot be overcome

My point exactly, how could it be wrong, if we were to hypothetically clone for the army? Wouldn't it be okay to clone a life to save a life? Just simply keep the clone in check. And as you said before albear, like the movie "The Island"

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 05:17 PM
My point exactly, how could it be wrong, if we were to hypothetically clone for the army? Wouldn't it be okay to clone a life to save a life? Just simply keep the clone in check. And as you said before albear, like the movie "The Island"
AHA another comrade in the 'for clones discussion' yea like in 'the island' but keep them in an induced coma because if they were living 'lives' as such it wouldn't be right to take it away if the clones are being used for medical purposes. OOH another point would be less animal testing for you animal rights activists out there.

JoeCanada76
Jul 30, 2007, 05:17 PM
I personally feel that cloning should remain illegal and if it was not I personally would be against it. There are too many immoral things that would happen due to cloning. Also it is very hard scientifically to do and who know the consequences of actual cloning will have on future generations.

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 05:27 PM
I think the question is where will it stop?

Cloning superhuman war machines one day, cloning a police force the next, and bar security the next.

Where will the line in the sand be drawn??

Lenovo
Jul 30, 2007, 05:30 PM
Where did the sand come from?

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 05:39 PM
From the weathering of rocks??

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 05:40 PM
I think the question is where will it stop?

Cloning superhuman war machines one day, cloning a police force the next, and bar security the next.

Where will the line in the sand be drawn???

As I said before it will not go that far because the cost is too high, imagine paying millions for bar security, even super human war machines as you so elegantly put it will be a rareity because imagine how high the rate of taxes will rise to pay for that your thinking in terms of that we live in a world where money is not an issue, so there is no need to wonder where a line will be drawn because there is no sand, only rich and famous people will even be able to afford it

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 05:43 PM
I'm sure the cost of military air craft seemed unimaginable years ago. As you said earlier no problem can not be overcome. Cost included?

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 05:50 PM
I'm sure the cost of military air craft seemed unimaginable years ago. As you said earlier no problem can not be overcome. Cost included?

That's not what I meant when I said 'no problem can not be overcome' if I reworded it I would have used the word ethical, besides do you see it costing so much a problem, because I don't personally, besides the cost of military aircraft is still great, it just doesn't seem it. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by suggesting that the cost is a problem

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 05:53 PM
I'm suggesting that the cost won't be a problem one day!

Your argument was that cloning armies etc will never get off the ground because of the high cost implications.

I'm suggesting that one day the cost won't be an issue.

Yes the cost of military air craft is still great. It doesn't stop us producing them.

I'm sorry if I'm missing your point. I thought you were arguing that the cost of cloning will prevent it from being used to create armies. No?

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 06:00 PM
Yes that is correct, I am, sorry I missed your point, OK, look at how many air craft we have, cloning a 'ultimate' warrior is going to be more expensive, agreed, so therefore there will be less made, now compare the number of aircraft we have compared to the number of infantry, and the total army personnel, the 'clone' army will need to be of similar size and so my point still remains that the cost will be an issue because of the sheer numbers the army will want to replace the existing infantry and the likes

Skell
Jul 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
No doubt cost will be an issue. But for how long is my point?

Lenovo
Jul 30, 2007, 06:04 PM
Now, what if they were to clone a human, without any special enhancements or anything, simply to see if they can use it and control it the way they saw fit?

Lenovo
Jul 30, 2007, 06:05 PM
Star wars episode 2 anyone?

albear
Jul 30, 2007, 06:13 PM
Now, what if they were to clone a human, without any special enhancements or anything, simply to see if they can use it and control it the way they saw fit?

Yes but if it was unaltered then they wouldn't use something that cost so much as a grunt, the star wars clones were modified and the cost be around as long as the earth because no government will be willing to raise taxes by that degree. Its just too high, and don't suggest that it won't be that high someday, because if you haven't noticed prices aren't going down no matter what the adverts say, so if anything they will become more expensive to produce.

DrJ
Jul 31, 2007, 01:05 PM
first of all, whether it is right or wrong, it is going to happen. There really is no stopping it at this point.

The discussion so far seems to be that clones will be inhuman... soulless... not worth the life they are given. That seems rather harsh. I mean, we could use regular people and grow them in incubators and use them just the same as the clones. What stops us from doing that? The inhumanity of it. So why would a cloned life be condemned to such an inhumane life?

As far as God goes... true: Only God can create Life. However, God gave the ability for Life to create Life. Is this any different? We are creating Life from Life... an ability that God has given us. It may be another issue had we been creating Life from no-Life. Will He smite us? Lol possibly... but is it really any different that the world of sin we live in today??

Cost... yeah, as said, if it really is an issue now, it won't be for long. There is plenty of money in the world and the more we advance, the easier it will become.

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 03:16 PM
Are you suggesting that making a clone will in cost so much that it will become an everyday item.

DrJ
Jul 31, 2007, 04:14 PM
Well, I wasn't suggesting that.. however, I suppose its possible.

Wow... imagine it like I, Robot... a clone for every home

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 04:17 PM
Yea and while they're at it why not start raising the dead as well because we can make clones of them using their DNA so the world becomes over populated AND WE ALL DIE

DrJ
Jul 31, 2007, 04:39 PM
Im not saying it's a good idea.. Im just saying whether it is or not no longer matters. The fact is that cloning humans will soon be a reality.

Cloning the dead... there's another idea. Why not clone some of the greatest minds in history?

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 04:41 PM
Well I won't be comfortable with clones of me running around, besides I'm not dead yet, think of the shock einstein would get he would die straight away, besides I'm not saying cloning won't happen I'm trying to discuss how far it will be taken

michealb
Jul 31, 2007, 04:47 PM
For those of you that say making life in a test tube is wrong, I know a few IVF kids that would like to kick you in the knee caps.

And a cloned army has too many bad points versus having a robot army. Very few question the morality of building unmanned drones and since we are much closer to building robots why not do that. No moral questions, no one saying we are playing god and just as effective if not more so.

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 04:50 PM
Clones have their advantages against robots especially humanoid ones

Canada_Sweety
Jul 31, 2007, 04:50 PM
Test tube baby... my ex bf is one.... I love him to death I do, so I guess I should maybe back off like a lot.

DrJ
Jul 31, 2007, 05:09 PM
Oh it will likely be the end of Life as we know it. The first round is just where it actually happens. Then others will begin to learn the technique and it will be used for the greater good... but it won't take long before the generations pass and the knowledge will become more and more accessible.

Then it will go black market. Governments, militias, and other organizations will be trying to get their hands on the technology... building armys of their own...

I don't see it ever stopping...

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 05:17 PM
I do

Canada_Sweety
Jul 31, 2007, 05:58 PM
I don't know whether to listen to the logic or the conspiracy talk.... I see it going both ways.

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 06:02 PM
Listen to both then make a conclusion

Canada_Sweety
Jul 31, 2007, 06:16 PM
The two sides are in a vicious debate in my head....
But I conclude, cloning people for war is bad.... who wants evil clones coming after us?
But then again it could be for the better of humanity.
Frnakly, I see it as, no, no cloning for war... because then what would stop the enemy from getting ahold of this technology and maybe even improving it? Let's just leave it at, people on each side but we can try improving our weapons or something.

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 06:29 PM
Why would the clones be evil, if anything they would be impartial, as as for 'the enemy' getting ahold of the technology it would only be a matter of time anyway, and its not like if you obtain a clone you instantly know how its done, that's why scientists and experimenting to learn more about it, only once you have created will you know how its done,

And if cloning for war prevents original genuine people who have not been GMed from dying I fail to see how it is bad

Canada_Sweety
Jul 31, 2007, 07:04 PM
I know.
And as for the evil part, we wouldn't know how to expect them to be, so we should assume the worst.
As for the emeny getting their hands on the technology... who knows so once again expect the worst.
Not knowing is what has driven many to fear what is new and recently made. I won't lie, because I don't now how a clone would work or what would happen in the end, I preffer it not happening at all.

albear
Jul 31, 2007, 07:16 PM
Actually as I put in a previous post army clones will be genetically modified to be less independent and to follow orders so it depends on who orders them about

Canada_Sweety
Jul 31, 2007, 07:17 PM
And once again, if it gets into the wrong hands?

magprob
Jul 31, 2007, 10:08 PM
Could G.W. Bush be a failed attempt at an evil clone of George Sr. The scientist doing the cloning accidentally grabbed the wrong syringe which contained monkey DNA. George Sr. and Barbara Bush suspected there was something wrong when as a child, he would swing from the drapes and throw poop at them. They quickly tried to clone another evil George but instead they got a Jeb. They realized Jeb was not evil enough nor would he do as he was told. After all, he came home from a three day drunk in Juarez, married.
Time had run out. They went with the first evil clone, monkey boy. As we can see from this debacle, cloning is still very unreliable!

rankrank55
Jul 31, 2007, 10:17 PM
LMAO mag!

Canada_Sweety
Aug 1, 2007, 09:48 AM
LMA0!!!!
I think that's the main reason cloning should be un-alowed.:D

albear
Aug 1, 2007, 11:18 AM
And once again, if it gets into the wrong hands?

Which it inevitably(not entirely sure on the spelling) will,just like nuclear

Canada_Sweety
Aug 1, 2007, 11:21 AM
So let's just let it be.

DrJ
Aug 1, 2007, 01:57 PM
Wait.. which one was I? The logical one or the conspiracy theorist? Lol


At any rate, how did we come to the conclusion that an exact clone of yourself would be evil?

And is the majority okay with creating clones so that they are lesser beings as we? And then even using them for things that we would not want to use ourselves on?

Do we really believe that they would be soulless?

albear
Aug 1, 2007, 02:18 PM
I think the one opposing me... I think I was both, iwouldnt mind being logical though logical

inthebox
Aug 1, 2007, 02:33 PM
For those of you that say making life in a test tube is wrong, I know a few IVF kids that would like to kick you in the knee caps.

And a cloned army has too many bad points versus having a robot army. Very few question the morality of building unmanned drones and since we are much closer to building robots why not do that. No moral questions, no one saying we are playing god and just as effective if not more so.



ivf kids are from a sperm and a egg - a completely different matter altogether.
The child is not identical nor has the same genetic material as either parent.





Grace and Peace

inthebox
Aug 1, 2007, 02:38 PM
Some would argue J_9 that we play God every day in our emergency rooms and hospitals throughout the world. Just on a different level.

I agree that it is a very emotionally and debatable subject and one that isnt simple to address.

I certainly don't agree with it for the purpose of creating armies.


Agree in that extending life could be considered "playing God," but

Treating a heart attack or cancer or a trauma victim is using the abilities that God gave us to serve others.

If you did not mean the latter - sorry:o



Grace and Peace

albear
Aug 1, 2007, 02:39 PM
So is the ability to clone

inthebox
Aug 1, 2007, 02:46 PM
thats a good idea but what prevents those clones from wanting their own life.I say it would be too dangerous. Its like identity theft now...imagine a clone running around just like you actin' a fool.Or worse if those clones we create decide they want to work with our enemies rather than with us.:cool:



Just because we may have the ability to do it does not mean it would be ethhical as so many have pointed out or like jvibe 101 asks.


Perhaps cloning of organs for transplant, I might consider.




Grace and Peace

Lenovo
Aug 1, 2007, 05:21 PM
Honestly, if there was a clone of myself, I would want to be the one to control it.

magprob
Aug 1, 2007, 05:29 PM
If there was a clone of me I would make him test the milk to see if it went sour. Oh yea... and mow the yard, and wash the car, and clean the basement. He would also be required to sit around listening to the ole lady talk and talk and talk and talk while I'm out at Hooters shooting Jeager Miester bombs.

Skell
Aug 1, 2007, 06:35 PM
If there was a clone of me I would make him test the milk to see if it went sour. Oh yea...and mow the yard, and wash the car, and clean the basement. He would also be required to sit around listening to the ole lady talk and talk and talk and talk while I'm out at Hooters shootin Jeager Miester bombs.

You could get him to proof read all your AMHD posts too!! :)

magprob
Aug 1, 2007, 06:37 PM
You could get him to proof read all your AMHD posts too!!!! :)
Hey, I was eating a bowl of CoCo Crispies while writing that. Didn't you get my point mate? What's wrong widit?

Skell
Aug 1, 2007, 06:40 PM
No I got it. I get all your points. Sometimes it takes me a good nights sleep and a smoke of the hoochie but I eventually get them..

I was just coming up with more tasks for the Mag clone. What would he be called?

magprob
Aug 1, 2007, 07:16 PM
MAG-A-TRON, The newly revived version of the classic, totally awesome, super love machine, MAGPROB.

Skell
Aug 1, 2007, 08:49 PM
Ill take 3. 1 for each wife. I have to to treat them each equally.

magprob
Aug 1, 2007, 10:17 PM
What's the use? You need to take care of all three of them at once... all by yourself. It's not fair to put that kind of responsibility on a simple clone. Things can go wrong. Bad things.

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 06:26 AM
L0L!
I'm not sure who was logic and who was conspiracy, but either way both sides were very wise. Magprob, you've got the right idea making your clone do your chores and busying your wife while you're at Hooters. Frankly, I'd like to hve a magprob of my own:p haha!

magprob
Aug 2, 2007, 08:29 AM
It would wear you out girl. Get a nice church boy believe me. Save yourself the pain.

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 08:44 AM
Haha! I stopped seeing nice church boys..... I turned them all bad:D

magprob
Aug 2, 2007, 08:49 AM
Then you can't have a clone. I know you would mistreat it.

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 08:57 AM
:(awwe......

magprob
Aug 2, 2007, 09:00 AM
We could clone you an animal though. How about a nice pig or sheep?

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 09:04 AM
LMA0! I WANT LAMB CHOP!:D:p

magprob
Aug 2, 2007, 09:35 AM
Vets to put down 7-legged lamb - Animal Peculiarity - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20084866/?GT1=10252)

Forget the sheep for now. Some adjustments must be made. Pork Chops anyone?

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 09:40 AM
LMA0!

DrJ
Aug 2, 2007, 12:53 PM
Just because we may have the ability to do it does not mean it would be ethhical as so many have pointed out or like jvibe 101 asks.


Perhaps cloning of organs for transplant, I might consider.




Grace and Peace


So where is the line drawn? When have we gone too far using our God-given abilities?

Canada_Sweety
Aug 2, 2007, 12:57 PM
murder?

inthebox
Aug 2, 2007, 02:39 PM
So where is the line drawn? When have we gone too far using our God-given abilities?


I don't know.

I'm just advocating taking a very long look before leaping.;)




Grace and Peace

Skell
Aug 2, 2007, 04:31 PM
So where is the line drawn? When have we gone too far using our God-given abilities?

How do we know when too far is "using our God given abilities"?

As I said earlier some would say that heart transplants are going too far. Some would say giving anti biotics is going too far.

The line is very hard to find if you start using God to define it. As you would have seen here God has a different meaning to many people. Especially when it comes to science.