To me, all religions have the same basic universal truths. In my understanding they are all like different languages that each person understands and interprets differently. I agree that all of the texts, bibles and other religious writings are based on man's interpretation of what they thought God wanted us to believe or live by. I don't see it as my truth or my way to understand God. The original question was ,How do atheists not believe in God. I think all of the people on here have answered that question. We may not agree or understand their answers, but they have. The topic of religion doesn't need to be brought up to understand God for me, but for others it does. My point before that no one really was interested in was, why not live life in a way that is loving and kind to all humans, and to not find judgment in anyone, wouldn't that be a good place to start? The universe has energy that we are connected to. WE will never agree on everything, but we can agree that we share the same planet and we all have a personal responsibility in making the world a better place for all. WE can argue semantics all day but really, being loving and kind doesn't need a religion or a label of God, and we would all be doing something positive that affects everyone. We don't need a scientific explanation for that or the bible. YEs science was created by man and so was religion, I think we can all understand that. Science cannot explain where Karma, De Ja Vu, intuition, or God, come from, or if any of them do not exist. Thus, it is our own beliefs and our own perspectives that determine of they do. NOt science.

Right as rain!

Thank-you

I have one more question for those who see themselves as atheists..

How do you deal with death of loved one, I mean there are some who believe the dead live on, or that we will meet them when we die etc.
I mean as science provides medical solutions to diseases etc but as it does not prevent death, how does this effect your lives in general and also does it make it harder to deal with death than those of us who believe in an afterlife.

Don't mind my questioning but I have never had the opportunity to ask an atheist such questions as I have never met any,until I joined AMHD...

Thanks:)

Capuchin--My earlier question to you seems to have kind of got lost in the Bible babble, but I really would like to know whether you think there are any inherent limits to the application of the scientific method.


Do you believe (hold dear and love) that the scientific method is adequate to provide a satisfactory (to you, at least) explanation for every phenomenon whatsoever? Do you see any inherent limitation on the kind of phenomena that can be examined and explained by its use? It does seem to require a human being to conceptualize the problem as a theoretical model, operationalize the model to formulate a testable hypothesis, design an experiment to test it, and interpret the resulting observations and measurements to construct a coherent explanation story. Is this (the human mind) a significant limitation? What it really comes down to, I suppose, is whether there is anything whatsoever beyond the reach of the rigorous application of logic, experiment and observation by the rational human intellect. The only limitation you have alluded to so far is the precision of measurement technology. Is that the only one there is, in your view?

Good question. I'm more agnostic than atheist. I don't believe you'll see the person after you die. Death is simply inevitable. It makes it no harder than people who believe that they will live forever after they die. It does mean that we are to enjoy this life. I sometimes think that there would be less suicides if more people thought this way.


I have one more question for those who see themselves as atheists..

How do you deal with death of loved one, I mean there are some who believe the dead live on, or that we will meet them when we die etc.
I mean as science provides medical solutions to diseases etc but as it does not prevent death, how does this effect your lives in general and also does it make it harder to deal with death than those of us who believe in an afterlife.

Dont mind my questioning but I have never had the opportunity to ask an atheist such questions as I have never met any,until I joined AMHD...

Thanks:)

My experience with being bereaved of those I love has taught me that even if it does turn out that I get to see them after my own death, I still have to live the rest of my life without them. Belief in a future reunion wouldn't change that at all, and that's the hardest part by far. "What happens after death?" is one of those questions for which I have decided that "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer.

I have one more question for those who see themselves as atheists..

How do you deal with death of loved one, I mean there are some who believe the dead live on, or that we will meet them when we die etc.
I mean as science provides medical solutions to diseases etc but as it does not prevent death, how does this effect your lives in general and also does it make it harder to deal with death than those of us who believe in an afterlife.

Dont mind my questioning but I have never had the opportunity to ask an atheist such questions as I have never met any,until I joined AMHD...

Thanks:)

To me, one of the hardest parts about becoming an atheist (as opposed to agnostic) was coming to the realization that once you die, that's it. It's over. And it's eternal. You absolutely cease to be - you don't have a spirit or soul that lives on, you don't go to heaven and get reunited, you don't go to hell to get punished. You just, stop. You lay in a box and rot, to take off the sugar-coating. It's a tough thing to wrap your head around, that one day there is NO MORE. But for me, I'm OK with that. I take that as a cue I need to make the most of the life I have and if I want to live on "in spirit" I need to do things that are going to make people remember me. I don't want to die and have no one ever think about me again, so I hope I've made enough of an impact on people's lives that in 50 years my great great great grand nephew (or whoever) will have a reason to tell a story to his nephew about something I did. Maybe I'll come up with the best cookie recipe my family has ever tasted, maybe my engagement ring will be passed down for generations, I don't know. I just hope that something happens so I'm not forgotten. But, on the flip side, if I don't and I am forgotten, it's not like I'll ever know - I'll be dead! :)

As far as coping with other people's death, I have no problems. My dad died last January and sure I grieved, but I think I "got over it" more quick than other members of my family who are more spiritual because I realized it doesn't matter. I can stomp my feet all I want, stay in bed with the covers over my head, pray to god, it doesn't matter. He's not coming back. More than anything I was MAD - he died while waiting for a liver transplant and if the transplant team had approved him, or more people checked "donor" on their driver's license (don't get me started on that), he'd still be here. I'm not left wondering if I will see him again, I don't have a sense that he's watching over me, I know he's gone, and one day I will be too. To me, I'm totally fine with this. I know it probably seems bizarre to someone who believes in an afterlife, but for me it's almost refreshing to not worry about what happens when I die. I don't worry about heaven or hell, or if I pi$$ed god off, or if one day I will give in to the devil's temptations; I do what I think is best for me and what I think will make me happy. When that stops working for me, maybe I'll look toward religion, but don't hold your breath...

Don't apologize about asking questions about atheism and our opinions; many people are misinformed about atheists and hopefully anyone reading this thread will learn we are not evil, we are not devil worshippers (I never got that one), we are not horrible people out to corrupt society and bring down religion. We're just people. Most people would probably never be able to pick out an atheist, in fact. If you heard a breakdown of my day to day life, you'd never be able to tell me apart from your average Christian.

I just want to say that before I got on this site, I THOUGHT all people who didn't believe in GOD are just scared of following rules. I know this NOT TO BE TRUE! It has been a great honor knowing and listening to ALL of you. Thanks, Start

Capuchin--My earlier question to you seems to have kind of got lost in the Bible babble, but I really would like to know whether you think there are any inherent limits to the application of the scientific method.
Need Karma? TKRussell? Speedball? Anybody?

Eeee, I must have missed that.

I don't see any limit to the application of the scientific method, except maybe to societal things such as politics and morals.

I think that our brains and how they have evolved have perhaps made some aspects of the physical world, like quantum mechanics or relativity, difficult to grasp - maybe some aspects may be ungraspable until we find a way to supercede that. (Technologically? Evolutionarily?)
There also may be a physical limit to what we can do, like faster than light travel, which may prevent us from ever seeing or exploring the whole of the universe. Perhaps some limit on information stability will prevent us from gathering evidence from anything smaller than a certain scale. I don't know.

But certainly things like the brain, feelings and so on, unless they do in fact behave on this smaller scale, I see no problems to understanding. In other words I don't think that there's any limit imposed due to something being "inherently unphysical". I don't believe there can be such a thing.

Hey! There you are, monkey man (is that a proper translation of you nomme-de-net?). Anyway, thanks for replying, because I find this fascinating. Let me say upfront that I think we will agree that the ultimate frontiers of what can be done with the scientific method are very far beyond the state of today's knowledge, so we're in no danger of running out of interesting things to do with it.


I don't see any limit to the application of the scientific method, except maybe to societal things such as politics and morals.

I think that our brains and how they have evolved have perhaps made some aspects of the physical world, like quantum mechanics or relativity, difficult to grasp - maybe some aspects may be ungraspable until we find a way to supercede that. (Technologically? Evolutionarily?)
There also may be a physical limit to what we can do, like faster than light travel, which may prevent us from ever seeing or exploring the whole of the universe. Perhaps some limit on information stability will prevent us from gathering evidence from anything smaller than a certain scale. I don't know.
Yes, it seems to me that some fairly fundamental limits arise due to what might be called the "scale" of human life and consciousness, in both time and space. With respect to time, taking a purely information theoretical approach, if our "sampling interval" is short (the time we are able to spend observing a "signal"--any time-varying process--compared to the period of the signal, we will be inherently ignorant of any information content the signal may contain. The most we can say is that if the signal contains information, we have no way to know it. At the other extreme of frequency, if our sampling interval is long compared to the period of the signal, all we can ever know is a statistical average of the signal's value

With respect to space, we are similarly stuck at our subjective middle of the spectrum of size. Both the exceedingly small (sub-atomic) and the exceedingly large (extra-cosmic) present huge barriers to access by the human mind.


But certainly things like the brain, feelings and so on, unless they do in fact behave on this smaller scale, I see no problems to understanding.
"unless they do infact behave on this smaller scale"

Maybe I misunderstand your comment, but since the atoms and molecules involved in brain chemistry and physics are presumably constructed of elementary sub-atomic particles, how could they NOT "behave on this smaller scale"? What do you mean by "behave"?


In other words I don't think that there's any limit imposed due to something being "inherently unphysical". I don't believe there can be such a thing.
What do you mean by "inherently unphysical"? You don't believe in non-baryonic matter?
The Case For Non-Baryonic Matter (http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~dns/MAP/Bahcall/node2.html)
The University of Chicago Magazine: April 2002, Features (http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0204/features/think.html)
Dark Matter – One Mystery Solved (Update) (http://www.physorg.com/news7058.html)

The two questions you bring up, I can see why you are confused.

By "on this smaller scale" I mean that an inherent property is due to the physics at this unobtainable scale. For example the brain is generally assumed to work on the macromolecular scale, that is that all functions can be explained by "crude" macromolecular physics. I believe Penrose (it might not be Penrose) holds a belief that the brain may well work at the quantummechanical scale, that is it has inherent qualities due to effects described by quantum mechanical theory and not described by macromolecular physics. Of course, the macromolecular model is just cruder than the quantummechanical, but quantum mechanics provides the first layer of "ungraspability". By "unless they do infact behave on this smaller scale", I mean if the crudeness of quantum mechanics is insufficient to describe it, and the smaller, ungraspable scale is the only way of understanding some of the functions of the brain.

Does that make sense? I realise that it's still a rather cloudy statement.

As for inherently unphysical I was referring to the idea of soul that a few people put forward in this thread. Undeniably we each have the impression of a soul, something not tied to electric pulses and rushing chemicals. However the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that that's exactly what it is. It's a delightful illusion that evolution has built for us. I believe that other creatures may have the same core of feelings and thoughts, but maybe we are the only ones intelligent enough to ponder upon it.

I fear that what I say next may not make sense (it's coming into my mind right now as I type), so let me know what you think:
I suppose, in my mind, the physical is the only thing able to act on the physical, and the physical is all that there is. Therefore the physical is the only thing which is measurable. Something which we claim is unphysical (the soul, god), must either be measurable and therefore actually physical (the soul, through chemicals and electrical pulses, through the raise in heartrate when you think of someone you love), or unmeasurable and therefore unphysical, and non-existant (God).

I know that anyone who is theistic will tell me that God doesn't need to apply to my rules of physicality, and that he can act on whatever the hell he wants. This is just how my monkey-brain interprets the world.

You raise a very good point as far as the physical, we can perceive and the non-physical, that we cannot. I think ancient mans need to fill in the blanks of his knowledge, has led many to take one side or another in the interest of satisfying his ignorance of facts, because of the very human need to be comfortable with his surroundings, but as we humans do there will always be those whose perspectives leaves them outside the box, or not in step with mainstream thinking. I think as modern man learns more of himself and the way he feels and sees, this physical world our attitudes and behavior will change to reflect that new knowledge. Having said that, I can certainly see why, an atheist can not be convinced in the idea of God, and all the traditions and trapments of those that do, put on the concept of an unseen superior being.

By "on this smaller scale" I mean that an inherent property is due to the physics at this unobtainable scale. For example the brain is generally assumed to work on the macromolecular scale, that is that all functions can be explained by "crude" macromolecular physics. I believe Penrose (it might not be Penrose) holds a belief that the brain may well work at the quantummechanical scale, that is it has inherent qualities due to effects described by quantum mechanical theory and not described by macromolecular physics. Of course, the macromolecular model is just cruder than the quantummechanical, but quantum mechanics provides the first layer of "ungraspability". By "unless they do infact behave on this smaller scale", I mean if the crudeness of quantum mechanics is insufficient to describe it, and the smaller, ungraspable scale is the only way of understanding some of the functions of the brain.

Does that make sense? I realise that it's still a rather cloudy statement.
I took a course in Modern Physics about 40 years ago in which the rudiments of relativity and quantum mechanics were introduced. About the only thing I remember clearly from it was the professor's comments to the effect that scientific models are not, and should not be thought of as descriptions of the way things actually are. Instead they are "thought experiments" that ask the question "What should we expect to observe and measure if the phenomenon we wish to study behaved as if our (intentionally over-simplified) model was approximately correct?" This leads to experimental results that are either consistent with our expectations, in which case we gain confidence that the simplified model is "good enough", or not, in which case, we go back and tinker with it (reduce its approximations and add to its complexities) to make it more consistent with what we observe. In other words, the scientific quest is not really designed or expected to lead to complete and perfect knowledge, but only to push back the boundaries of our ignorance a little bit further. This is a considerably more modest undertaking, and even the most robust model will be found to fall short when pushed far enough beyond it's founding assumptions and approximations. If both scientists and lay people understood and remembered this in their conversations, we'd have a lot fewer arguments, I think.

From what I can tell, current models of how electro-chemical brain function is related to self-conscious awareness, thought and feeling are crude indeed. Whether the macro-molecular scale approximation is "good enough" or whether quantum mechanical processes have to be introduced, is still an open question as far as I know.


As for inherently unphysical I was referring to the idea of soul that a few people put forward in this thread. Undeniably we each have the impression of a soul, something not tied to electric pulses and rushing chemicals. However the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that that's exactly what it is. It's a delightful illusion that evolution has built for us. I believe that other creatures may have the same core of feelings and thoughts, but maybe we are the only ones intelligent enough to ponder upon it.
If this "impression of a soul" is something "evolution has built for us", might we need to be a little bit careful about trashing it intellectually before we really understand its purpose and function? Or do you think it's clearly outlived its usefulness and can be safely dispensed with?


I fear that what I say next may not make sense (it's coming into my mind right now as I type), so let me know what you think:
I suppose, in my mind, the physical is the only thing able to act on the physical, and the physical is all that there is. Therefore the physical is the only thing which is measurable. Something which we claim is unphysical (the soul, god), must either be measurable and therefore actually physical (the soul, through chemicals and electrical pulses, through the raise in heartrate when you think of someone you love), or unmeasurable and therefore unphysical, and non-existant (God).
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "physical". Is energy stored and transmitted in an electromagnetic field "physical"? Are massless subatomic particles "physical"? Are thoughts "physical"? If the answer to all these questions is yes, then isn't it kind of a tautology to say that "the physical is the only thing able to act on the physical"?


I know that anyone who is theistic will tell me that God doesn't need to apply to my rules of physicality, and that he can act on whatever the hell he wants. This is just how my monkey-brain interprets the world.
To me, it's always seemed just silly to think that God breaks his own rules just to test our faith, as for example, the argument that he actually made the earth six thousand years ago, but intentionally made it appear to be 3.5 billion years old just to see how we'd react. I just can't feel the necessary awe and reverence for a God who would engage in such trickery.

Islam Tomorrow .com (http://www.islamtomorrow.com/science/)

Where in this whole lengthy arguement(all the above very interesting posts) does this article fit.

Please comment?Thanks

Where in this whole lengthy arguement(all the above very interesting posts) does this article fit.
From the link you cite,
"The Christian Bible says that Adam & Eve were both created here on Earth, less than 10,000 years ago." Well, no, it doesn't actually say that. Estimates of the earth's age based (in some sense) on the Bible depend on at least two key assumptions--that the "generations of Adam" listed in the Bible are complete and unabridged, and that the length of each generation is known "close enough"--plus some calculations (count, multiply, sum). Based on such assumptions and calculations, some Christians are willing to infer that the earth (and every bit of the material, and all the life forms in and on it) is less than 10,000 years old, but the Bible doesn't actually say it in so many words.

But the point of the article seems to be that the Quran gives a little more wiggle room in that it allows for interpretations that can accommodate a much longer history of the planet and the life forms that have arisen on it. If that's so, then I say "Great!". I can only hope that the fundamentalist Bible beaters will eventually see the wisdom in that approach and follow suit. But I'm not holding my breath.

From the link you cite, Well, no, it doesn't actually say that. Estimates of the earth's age based (in some sense) on the Bible depend on at least two key assumptions--that the "generations of Adam" listed in the Bible are complete and unabridged, and that the length of each generation is known "close enough"--plus some calculations (count, multiply, sum). Based on such assumptions and calculations, some Christians are willing to infer that the earth (and every bit of the material, and all the life forms in and on it) is less than 10,000 years old, but the Bible doesn't actually say it in so many words.

But the point of the article seems to be that the Quran gives a little more wiggle room in that it allows for interpretations that can accomodate a much longer history of the planet and the life forms that have arisen on it. If that's so, then I say "Great!". I can only hope that the fundamentalist Bible beaters will eventually see the wisdom in that approach and follow suit. But I'm not holding my breath.

Just for information sake,
The Quran has not been changed to suit human needs, it has been the same from the time it was revealed till now.
So the passages quoted when read in Arabic has been the same since 1400 or so years ago.

I had someone say to me one time that "There is no such thing as a true Atheist. They are Agnostic". In other words, they just have not giving it enough thought to provoke an interest in religion. Think of it this way, if you were in the plane on 9/11, I would believe you would be praying to someone before you hit the tower. Its easy to say until you are hit with a tramatic experience.

a) Some of us never experiencwe traumatic experiences.
b) How can you predict what a person will do?

Also:
"hey just have not giving it enough thought to provoke an interest in religion"
When actually they give no thought and are quite happy.

a) Some of us never experiencwe traumatic experiences.
b) How can you predict what a person will do?

Also:
"hey just have not giving it enough thought to provoke an interest in religion"
when actually they give no thought and are quite happy.
First of all... time is the only thing you need on this earth to acquire a traumatic experience whether it be in yours or someone else's close to you. Second, how can you possibly predict. The only comment I have is that we (People) are all made from the same mold, and when people are faced with hard times, they will pray whether they believe or not. Human Being = Hypocrites. I am no exception to this rule. Also, how do you know they are truly happy? Everyone hides their true feelings. Everyone puts on a face...

First of all.....time is the only thing you need on this earth to aquire a traumatic experience whether it be in yours or someone elses close to you.Disagree. Perhaps what you call a trauma I call something one has to deal with.

Second, how can you possibly predict. The only comment I have is that we (People) are all made from the same mold, and when people are faced with hard times, they will pray whether they believe or not.
Nah, not true. Prayer does not lead to any solutions.


Human Being = Hypocrites. I am no exception to this rule. Also, how do you know they are truly happy? Everyone hides their true feelings. Everyone puts on a face......I guess you plain have a problem with people, I don't.

Put it this way: if there were no religion then there would be no suicide bombers and 9/11 never would have happened since there is no 'better' afterlife or '72 virgins' waiting for you. This is your life, make the best of it, I am.

Disagree. Perhaps what you call a trauma I call something one has to deal with.

Nah, not true. Prayer does not lead to any solutions.

I guess you plain have a problem with people, I don't.

Put it this way: if there were no religion then there would be no suicide bombers and 9/11 never would have happened since there is no 'better' afterlife or '72 virgins' waiting for you. This is your life, make the best of it, I am.
You have a right to your opinion...

Just for information sake,
The Quran has not been changed to suit human needs, it has been the same from the time it was revealed till now.
So the passages quoted when read in Arabic has been the same since 1400 or so years ago.
If this is offered as a statement of religious faith, I accept it as such. If you also intend it as a statement of fact, there is no way tell whether it's true. Considering the bitter conflicts that broke out among his followers after the Prophet's death that continue to this day, it seems highly unlikely to me.

The Writing of the Qur'an (http://islamic.org.uk/I4WM/writing.htm)
As for the Qur'an. There has never been any doubt about its authenticity. So many people memorised it by heart and there was from the time of Muhammad a great deal of written material which contained the text of the Qur'an. In all the history of the Qur'an, since Uthman commissioned written copies in the form of Books, there has been one, and only one Qur'an and there have been no changes in it. It is accepted by all Muslims as the exact word of God.

One of the effects of the Qur'an is that huge efforts were also made to preserve the meanings of the Arabic language so that the sources of Islamic law would not get lost through the evolution of the language. This has meant that the classical Arabic can be studied today and modern Arabic is very close indeed to its classical ancestor. The extent to which the Arabic language has remained unchanged for 1400 years show just how significant the source texts of Islam were to the early Muslim generations. These all contribute to proving beyond reasonable doubt that the Qur'an is the same Qur'an that was revealed to Muhammad and that the accounts of his life and his saying are generally very well authenticated and reliable - to an extent probably unlike the accounts of any other character in history.

People bent on denying Islam sometimes try to make challenges to this account of events. However, to do so basically means believing that most if not all the Muslims around throughout the history of Islam were liars - is this reasonable?
----------------------------------
Please click link to read the rest of the article.
This is for information sake... but I am open to any questions you may have.

However, to do so basically means believing that most if not all the Muslims around throughout the history of Islam were liars - is this reasonable?Mistakes in retelling a story over time is not considered lying by the people doing so.

Mistakes in retelling a story over time is not considered lying by the people doing so.
True believers of course will insist that Allah would not allow mistakes to be made in the copying and retelling. This is why assertions of textual purity are statements of a person's religious faith, rather than historical fact.

Such a belief by religious folks serves to channel and direct their spiritual quest in much the same way that a theoretical model serves to inform scientific inquiry. In either case, it is a willing choice to proceed as if the model were correct, or as if the Scripture were inspired verbatim. The difference arises when the "experimental (or experiential) evidence" is at odds with the model's prediction. The scientist tinkers with the model to make it consistent with the evidence, but the believer tends to reject the evidence rather than change his interpretation of Scripture. It took hundreds of years to adjust Biblical interpretations to accommodate the discoveries of Galileo (helio-centric vs. geo-centric solar system), and it will probably take hundreds more to integrate the discoveries of Darwin, Einstein and Bohr. No need to hurry, I guess.

Atheists I believe tend to follow occam's razor when explaining books like the Qur'an. We know that the book was actually put to paper by a person, it didn't come from the sky fully written on paper that didn't come from earth. Is it more likely that the book was written by a man on his own like the millions of other books on earth or that the book was dictated by god and man only put down god's words. An atheists says the simplest answer is that the Qur'an like every other book was the work of man.

The Quran is not inconsistent with science, the scientists are already seeing this(I did not use the word "believe") as they move further along in their scientific quests.
Some examples are in embryology, Big Bang theory etc.

Atheists I believe tend to follow occam's razor when explaining books like the Qur'an. We know that the book was actually put to paper by a person, it didn't come from the sky fully written on paper that didn't come from earth. Is it more likely that the book was written by a man on his own like the millions of other books on earth or that the book was dictated by god and man only put down god's words. An atheists says the simplest answer is that the Qur'an like every other book was the work of man.


I haven't read the entire thread.

If everything is a "work of man," whether the Bible , Torah, Koran etc..
Do atheists not believe anything they can't prove themselves?

For example, if you have never left Kansas [ not to pick on those fine folks ], do you believe that there is no ocean because you yourself have never seen or touched the ocean?
This despite books and other people telling you there are oceans.

Isn't the written word more reliable than oral tradition?


It is amazing to me that people discount "religious" texts yet believe every word that Limbaugh utters or the New York Times prints or what they read on some blog.







Grace and Peace

There is such a thing as being selective in what you believe.

Believing the New York Times is a little different than believing The National Enquirer.

Put religious texts in there any place you like.

Atheists I believe tend to follow occam's razor when explaining books like the Qur'an. We know that the book was actually put to paper by a person, it didn't come from the sky fully written on paper that didn't come from earth. Is it more likely that the book was written by a man on his own like the millions of other books on earth or that the book was dictated by god and man only put down god's words. An atheists says the simplest answer is that the Qur'an like every other book was the work of man.

And the Almighty wanted it that way, that the book be written by a human hand, but divinely inspired, that in itself is a test of our faith and belief, and for those who do not believe it is hard to understand why the Quran is regarded as such.

And even if atheists believe the Quran to be a work of human minds, I assure you cannot justify because in this book, we are given the guidance of inheritance, of marriage and divorce, of business transactions,of the right way to dress,about the moon and the sun being in an orbit etc
------------------------------------
-what Dr. Maurice Bucaille said after he had read the Qur'an:
"My first goal was to read the Qur'an and to make a sentence by sentence analysis of it... my approach was to pay special attention to the description of numerous natural phenomena given in the Qur'an; the highly accurate nature of certain details referring to them in the Book, which was only apparent in the original, struck me by the fact that they were in keeping with present-day ideas although a man living at the time of Mohammed couldn't have suspected this at all...what initially strikes the reader confronted for the first time with a text of this kind is the sheer abundance of subjects discussed... whereas monumental errors are to be found in the Bible I could not find a single error in the Qur'an. I had to stop and ask myself: if a man was the author of the Qur'an how could he have written facts in the seventh century A.D. that today are shown to be in keeping with modern scientific knowledge?... What human explanation can there be to this observation? In my opinion there is no explanation; there is no special reason why an inhabitant of the Arabian Peninsula should have had scientific knowledge on certain subjects that was ten centuries ahead... It is an established fact that at the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, i.e. within a period of roughly twenty three years straddling Hegira (622 A.D.), scientific knowledge had not progressed for centuries and the period of activity in Islamic civilization, with its accompanying scientific upsurge, came after the close of the Qur'anic revelation."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/dyktb.html

The bible didn't fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement...

The Qu'ran is far more scientifically sound than the Bible, but a lot of the statements are somewhat similar in style to Nostradamus' predictions, i.e. they could be interpreted many ways.

Well, ill take your word that it matches up with science more capuchin, because I'm unlikely to ever read another religions holy book

im unlikely to ever read another religions holy book
I really wish you would reconsider this choice. If you're truly interested in the life of the spirit, why not find out as much as you can about how people over the centuries and in many other cultures and circumstances have understood and expressed their spiritual ideals and longings? This kind of information is not threatening to the core truths of the faith you have already found, and it might make it possible for you to see them in their universality. Just a thought.

Books that claim to be inspired and transmitted by God, Allah, or any other trans-human intelligence are great. I've read a lot of them, and I love them all. But honestly, the fights we humans get in over which ONE is the RIGHT one wear me slick.

Why do you think Jesus didn't write a book? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. He was well educated and certainly could have written his teachings down for his followers. Not only did he not write one, as far as we know, he never suggested that his disciples write down any of his teachings either. It wasn't until several years later that his disciples started writing down what they remembered. So why not?

Could it be that he had seen first-hand what mischief and arguments people get into over holy books? During his years in the religious schools of the time, he surely got his fill of endless disputations about trivial aspects of obscure interpretations of this or that passage in the scripture. Just looking at what he did and didn't do, it strikes me that the lesson his example teaches is that words in holy books are not necessarily central to the spiritual quest.

Books that claim to be inspired and transmitted by God, Allah, or any other trans-human intelligence are great. I've read a lot of them, and I love them all. But honestly, the fights we humans get in over which ONE is the RIGHT one wear me slick.

Why do you think Jesus didn't write a book? It certainly wasn't because he didn't know how to write. He was well educated and certainly could have written his teachings down for his followers. Not only did he not write one, as far as we know, he never suggested that his disciples write down any of his teachings either. It wasn't until several years later that his disciples started writing down what they remembered. So why not?

Could it be that he had seen first-hand what mischief and arguments people get into over holy books? During his years in the religious schools of the time, he surely got his fill of endless disputations about trivial aspects of obscure interpretations of this or that passage in the scripture. Just looking at what he did and didn't do, it strikes me that the lesson his example teaches is that words in holy books are not necessarily central to the spiritual quest.

Have you really read the Quran?

Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate, but he had the Quran memorised as it was revealed as Allah stated that this final revelation will be preserved till the end of the world and that it is a mercy and blessing for all mankind and jinn.

I prefer to differ on this point you are making, in that there was a revelation revealed to Jesus (alaihi salaam) which we know as Injeel and we believe it was tampered by human hands and hence the ones we see today are mixed up with truths of the Almighty and human errors.This is the reason we accept that some of the things the Bible teaches agrees with Islamic teachings.

The message of Jesus
(alaihi salaam) was also pure monotheism as we believe he was one of the special people of the Almighty sent as a messenger to the people going astray from the true Lord.
And I believe in Jesus(alaihi salaam) returning to earth during the end times and he will establish the truth and abolish the falsehood being uttered by people about him.

I also believe that for us muslims Quran and the Hadith (sayings and/or guidance given by Muhammad (peace be upon him) as central to a muslims belief.
The Quran provides the guide for us to follow and Muhammad's life is the example we try to keep to, and we believe that his (peace be upon him) life was everything Allah advised in the Quran .

the bible didnt fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement....................

The people who wrote the Bible were different people but some wrote more than one book and did know each other... they were followers and disiciples of Christ. Some knew and walked with Christ while He was alive. Many are letter and expressions of circumstances the disciple is experiencing. The amazing thing is that they ARE in agreement with each other. Its just not coincedence...

the bible didnt fall from the sky either, it was written by 40 completely different people, who never met, collaberated, etc, over thousands of years, yet all their writings are in complete agreement

The amazing thing is that they ARE in agreement with eachother. Its just not coincedence...
The amazing thing to me is that so many people are willing to skip right over and ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible that are plain to see. To me, these inconsistencies aren't a reason to disregard it altogether, but they are a reason to be skeptical of rigid and doctrinaire interpretations of it.

The amazing thing to me is that so many people are willing to skip right over and ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible that are plain to see.

And what contradictions inconsistencies do you see that are so plain to you? Would you mind naming some.. : / To my personal knowledge I've never encountered contradiction in the Bible... There are certain things that are said that shouldn't be taken literally but contradictions..

There are certain things that are said that shouldn't be taken literally but contradictions..
With the many interpretations are they not contradictory? Even the Qu'ran has more than one interpretation. Each sect follows their own.

Have you really read the Quran?
Why do you ask? Do you mean to suggest that if I had read it, I would have arrived at a different conclusion about the perils of holy books and the arguments they engender? Actually I have read some, but not all of it. What I've read so far confirms my views on the subject rather than challenges them. If that changes as I read more, I'll be sure to let you know.


Muhammad(peace be upon him) was illiterate, but he had the Quran memorised as it was revealed as Allah stated that this final revelation will be preserved till the end of the world and that it is a mercy and blessing for all mankind and jinn.
Whatever its virtues, and I agree that they are many, I really can't accept that it is the final revelation. The stream flows on, and on, and on. Every age and every culture receives the revelations that they need to perform their function. The "end of the world" is a highly localized event, I suspect. There is no end without beginning, and the seeds from the last cycle germinate in the next.

Another hazard of excessive dependence on holy books to guide the spiritual life is that it tends to overemphasize doctrine and belief at the expense of direct knowledge and inspiration.

And what contradictions inconsistencies do you see that are so plain to you? Would you mind naming some...?
There are hundreds of them, small and large. Here's a whole long discussion of the topic if it interests you. Internal consistency of the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_inconsistencies_in_the_Bible)
I don't have a problem with inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible or any other holy book. The fact that they exist doesn't make me less respectful of the book or less inclined to value the many gems of wisdom that it contains. But it's just silly to deny that they exist. Sure, there's a whole industry devoted to the task of coming up with interpretations that reconcile them, and that's fine too, for those whose interest runs to such endeavors. But to me, it just seems unnecessary and trivial.

Why do you ask? Do you mean to suggest that if I had read it, I would have arrived at a different conclusion about the perils of holy books and the arguments they engender? Actually I have read some, but not all of it. What I've read so far confirms my views on the subject rather than challenges them. If that changes as I read more, I'll be sure to let you know.


Whatever its virtues, and I agree that they are many, I really can't accept that it is the final revelation. The stream flows on, and on, and on. Every age and every culture receives the revelations that they need to perform their function. The "end of the world" is a highly localized event, I suspect. There is no end without beginning, and the seeds from the last cycle germinate in the next.

Another hazard of excessive dependence on holy books to guide the spiritual life is that it tends to overemphasize doctrine and belief at the expense of direct knowledge and inspiration.

I did not ask if you read the Quran as a challenge,but out of curiosity to know if you have read and what you found to be interesting and how you took it.
But I also think if you read the entire Quran, there are certain different things which might make you think more on certain subjects.

And we agree to disagree on certain points about the Quran,Islam and Muhammad(peace be upon him).

About the end of the world, are you not a Christian?
If so I always assumed that we shared similar views on the world ending some day and that Jesus (alaihi salaam)will descend near the end times etc.
Do you not believe in an end of the world and a life after death?
I ask out of curiosity and not as a challenge.

Are you saying that you believe in receieving direct revelations from the Almighty in this day and age?Or are you saying that some are specially chosen to revive religious doctrines?If you could elaborate?

Thank you:)

I don't have a problem with inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible or any other holy book. The fact that they exist doesn't make me less respectful of the book or less inclined to value the many gems of wisdom that it contains. But it's just silly to deny that they exist. Sure, there's a whole industry devoted to the task of coming up with interpretations that reconcile them, and that's fine too, for those whose interest runs to such endeavors. But to me, it just seems unnecessary and trivial.

Then how can something be believable and true if there are contradictions and such? It wouldn't be true then if their were... That would mean you only half believe of what it says. Just doesn't seem to make too much sense...

Then how can something be believable and true if their are contradictions and such? It wouldn't be true then if their were...That would mean you only half believe of what it says. Just doesn't seem to make to much sense...I don't think you realize the large amount of christians that do just that.

Oh I know there are plenty of Christians that only half believe of what the Word says. I know they are out there and to me personally I'm not okay with it but it doesn't make me not like them any less.

That makes an awful lot of people on this planet that you do not like.

I never said I didn't like them I just disagree with what they think. That's it.

I just re-read your post and I read it totally wrong, my apologies.
End of day, I need a beer. :)

Sorry about that.

It's fine. No worries. End of the day is never the best time to think to deeply. :)

Why let me first say I just created this account off seeing this site and this question alone. So by this I mean to say to not count me out on any debates because of my low thread count. Well everyone my comment is on the person who stated the wikipedia page about the bibles inconsistencies along with anyone who mentions them. Let me first state my side on them. The inconsistencies arnt true in the sense on how we take them. The bible was written in its original form and the way it was translated has caused many errors. Many terms in hebrew are different then what they are stated in english. These problems cause enough damage on their own, but another problem is the way we all think. Currently the way we think also will damage the way we interpret. When sin entered the world it also brought change into the world, and what greater way for sin to infect us was our mind. Almost all knowledge we have currently comes from the greeks, so now how can we have perfect knowledge? Our minds, they alone are also flawed and any knowledge we get from God also will be hard to understand. Let me say that I'm not saying what we know is wrong, but flawed. And the worst part is in the coming ages they state to us that the debate is basically science VS Christianity, and knowledge vs Christianity, but that is far from the truth. God created the world, God created all knowledge, so this is science. But I'm sorry this is all leaving room for another debate.

The main question was about Atheists and not believeing. One of the true answers is it is more convenient to not believe. Another is the as much as the mind is set to believe something, they chose that something to be science. The raise of atheists is caused by the raised of separation of Science from Christianity. This idea was started back in the early american days when they started to separate Church from state. We had it backwards then and still do. The person who thought the idea meant it as, we need to take the state out of the church. AS Church being the Primary (Masculine if you will) and state being the secondary. Atheists do not believe because in this day and age everything is against the Christians. This keeps proving all Christians wrong because they try to prove everything with only Christianity. This is why we cannot fully debate. The world was created as a whole, so you cannot take a half and attack the other. The reason Atheists believe is either , A) Ignorace, B) Laziness and C) They are too smart for their own good. They believe all that we have learned and the flaws that we teach as true. But by that I sound as if I am insulting them, but no , even in christianity A and B are true, for 66.6% of people that believe in anything will fall under that. The C is caused by the fact of they believe in science, which what they don't realise , is science makes no sense without a start. And the bible states the start. And what most Christians don't realise is the bible doesn't make sense if you don't include Science, for nothing even in Gods power just happens. People won't understand what I mean by that and mis interpret it. By that I mean, to bake a cake God could just create it. But something's , they are done , but they don't just happen. To cleanse someone of a disease, you can't just instantly get rid of it. There are micorganisms that go one by one. Even if they instantly disappear, micro-organisms are still SCIENCE. So sorry if this is a crazy overkill or confusing answer. I wanted to state my few cents on this topic. :)

Well first I do understand what you're saying and where you are coming from. A lot of it makes complete sense and very well thought out I must add.

I completely agree that it is more convenient to not believe than to believe;that's true. Everything has a beginning, I'm a big believer in that; that nothing just happened randomly or just "poofed". Though I like very much how you have stated things and helped me put certain thoughts I have into actual, understandable words. You have pretty much said it all. :)

I also think if you read the entire Quran, there are certain different things which might make you think more on certain subjects.
I hope so, and I'm looking forward to it.


About the end of the world, are you not a Christian?
If so I always assumed that we shared similar views on the world ending some day and that Jesus (alaihi salaam)will descend near the end times etc.
Do you not believe in an end of the world and a life after death?
I ask out of curiosity and not as a challenge.
No, I'm not a Christian, at least not in the sense of being an adherent of any particular creed or doctrinal interpretation of the Bible. As to what the future holds, I simply don't know. Religious doctrines that deal with the future and the past don't interest me at all. As far as I can tell, the life of the spirit takes place entirely in the present, and if I can be attentive and mindful enough to get that right, I have faith that whatever the future brings will be fine.

Are you saying that you believe in receieving direct revelations from the Almighty in this day and age?
Sure, why not?

Or are you saying that some are specially chosen to revive religious doctrines?
I don't think it has much to do with religious doctrines, but yes, everybody has the capacity to receive directly whatever information or guidance they need to fulfill their life's purpose and be harmoniously related to the greater whole. But we do have to ask with sincerity, and be prepared to act on what we're given.

It's more convenient to not believe than to believe? Are you KIDDING?

With all the pressure (especially in the US) to conform to Christian standards in EVERYTHING ("In God We Trust", anyone?), how can you POSSIBLY think it's more convenient to NOT believe?

It's more convenient to say you're Christian, do what you want anyway, and pray for forgiveness before dying so that you don't go to hell. And who on their deathbed isn't truly repenting?

It's HARD to have a faith other than Christianity in this country, and it's even harder to not believe at all. If there is no OTHER reason, there's always the fact that as soon as someone finds out you don't believe, they try to convert you!

The reason Atheists believe is either , A) Ignorace, B) Laziness and C) They are too smart for their own good.

That is pretty presumptuous of you, since you haven't really asked anyone how they feel, and of the answers present in this thread your assumptions are not among them, and just because science is the basis of their thinking doesn't make them wrong, they just don't share your faith system. Different does not equate to inferior as you allude. Welcome to the forum.

It's more convenient to not believe than to believe? Are you KIDDING?

With all the pressure (especially in the US) to conform to Christian standards in EVERYTHING ("In God We Trust", anyone?), how can you POSSIBLY think it's more convenient to NOT believe?

It's more convenient to say you're Christian, do what you want anyway, and pray for forgiveness before dying so that you don't go to hell. And who on their deathbed isn't truly repenting?

It's HARD to have a faith other than Christianity in this country, and it's even harder to not believe at all. If there is no OTHER reason, there's always the fact that as soon as someone finds out you don't believe, they try to convert you!


Its more convenient, easier, to not believe in something than to believe in something; yes. It's eaasier to deny existence than accept it. It's just as hard to be a Christian a lot of times as well because people look upon you as this "perfect, always does right" person... People will ask "are you a christian?" and I'll answer "Yes" and their look, attitude and everything else completely changes. If you make one mistake they then say "You're a christian, you're not supposed to make mistakes." That's from experience right there. Then there's the fact that people judge; believers too, heck I'll admit it; I'm not perfect.

There's the right way and wrong way to try and share the gospel. A lot of times it's those telling you that if you don't repent now you'll end up in hell trying to force it down your throat. That's the wrong way;sadly. It truly does depend on the person and how others present it. I'm sorry if that is something you have personally experienced. : /

It's more convenient to not believe than to believe? Are you KIDDING?

With all the pressure (especially in the US) to conform to Christian standards in EVERYTHING ("In God We Trust", anyone?), how can you POSSIBLY think it's more convenient to NOT believe?

It's more convenient to say you're Christian, do what you want anyway, and pray for forgiveness before dying so that you don't go to hell. And who on their deathbed isn't truly repenting?

It's HARD to have a faith other than Christianity in this country, and it's even harder to not believe at all. If there is no OTHER reason, there's always the fact that as soon as someone finds out you don't believe, they try to convert you!

Its more convenient for the hypocrites to be christians, just as it is for the Athiests who just don't care. Conveniences goes both ways, I forgot to say that. Don't bring America into this because America isn't forcing anyone to be Christian, America itself is fighting to become anti Christian. That's why people are trying to get "Under God" taken away, and "In god we trust" taken away. Convenience goes both ways, but Christianity isn't the major part of the world. If we look into things you'll notice that convenience doesn't make someone change a side, convenience makes them conform. But People also out of convenience sometimes chose Christianity and that causes people to be the hypocritical christians that you can't really even call Christians. B/c anyone that is a Christian, but doesn't do as a Christian is instructed to do is nothing. Chrisitianity doesn't say "Call to God when in need and he will help" It says nothing like that , and people who think it is like that arnt real Christians.

That is pretty presumptuous of you, since you haven't really asked anyone how they feel, and of the answers present in this thread your assumptions are not among them, and just because science is the basis of their thinking doesn't make them wrong, they just don't share your faith system. Different does not equate to inferior as you allude. Welcome to the forum.




I never said that they were inferior and I never meant to make it seem that way. What I was stating is that the Atheistic increase started from a separation of Science from Christianity. Though I didn't finish my whole statement there so I'm sorry if I make it seem as if those are the only options, those are really the main things. If you ask most Atheists why they don't believe, they either will A) Shrug you off, B) I don't have faith in someone I can't see (which doesn't make sense cause a good bit of Atheists believe in Evolution which takes just as much faith) or C) They have a scientific reason. There are other means to which people believe but Science if you look deep down is the actual basis for everyone's stance. Christians and Atheists alike have their issues. But I didn't say believing in science is wrong , I said the believe that science stands alone is wrong, also the belief that God isn't the lead of science. Science has a bunch of loop holes if you look at it. Believing in that takes just as much faith. What people don't realise is that at this current point, science cannot tell you everything, because science at this current point is still looking back to the greeks for our knowledge. But that's totally off topic. But I did not mean to allude to anyone being inferior, no one is inferior for we all are humans. And though we have our differences, we all are equal.

I agree science has holes in it only because our knowledge is limited.

Then how can something be believable and true if their are contradictions and such? It wouldn't be true then if their were...That would mean you only half believe of what it says. Just doesn't seem to make to much sense...
For me, it has very little to do with belief. I just try to absorb and meditate on the parts that speak to my needs at a particular time, and lay the rest aside for another time. Also, paradoxes and conundrums serve a useful purpose by giving the logical mind something to keep it occupied while the real work goes on elsewhere. Kind of like giving a puppy a chew toy so he doesn't tear up the furniture. Trying to plumb the depths of ineffable mysteries with nothing but the logical mind creates all kinds of mischief, both within and between people.

The main question was about Atheists and not believeing. One of the true answers is it is more convenient to not believe. Another is the as much as the mind is set to believe something, they chose that something to be science.
Wouldn't it be better to just let the atheists answer the question of why they don't believe? The reasons you gave weren't mentioned by any of the atheists who have responded to the question so far. Do you suppose that you have greater insight into the reasons they don't believe than they have themselves?

Boy I get a kick out of people who say it takes as much faith to believe in science as it does to believe in a god. Makes me smirk and roll my eyes every time I read it...

What individuals who say that don't seem to realize it that scientific theories aren't guesses (that would be a hypothesis), and science is always working to improve itself and prove/disprove itself. That means if tomorrow scientists make the remarkable discovery that theory XYZ as we know it is wrong, and here is the proof - millions of people who hold the theory of XYZ as a truth will change their minds. Can the same be said for religion? Hmmm, perhaps for some, but probably not for most.

There are other means to which people believe but Science if you look deep down is the actual basis for everyone's stance. Christians and Atheists alike have their issues. But I didn't say believing in science is wrong , I said the believe that science stands alone is wrong, also the belief that God isn't the lead of science. Science has a bunch of loop holes if you look at it. Believing in that takes just as much faith.
You seem to have a basic misconception about what "science" is. It's not a creed or a set of facts or conclusions to be believed or rejected, it's just a method of investigation, a technique for continually improving on explanations for phenomena and our observations of them. It doesn't require "faith", except in the mundane sense of trusting our ability to observe and measure things to a known degree of accuracy, and to reason logically in interpreting what we observe and measure. Of course, like any tool, it has its limitations, but it works very well for the kinds of questions it was designed to answer, such as, "How does this thing work?" It isn't so well suited for questions like "Why is there something rather than nothing?" or "What existed before the beginning?" or "Does God exist?"

And though we have our differences, we all are equal.
I will gladly say "Amen" to that.

science is always working to improve itself and prove/disprove itself.

That's the amazing thing about science that people don't realise and I think it needs saying again. It's set up to prove itself wrong. There's always things that scientists can say "if we observed this, then this theory is wrong". And scientists actively search for that piece of evidence that would prove a theory wrong. That's what the difference between science and religion is.

It doesn't require "faith", except in the mundane sense of trusting our ability to observe and measure things to a known degree of accuracy, and to reason logically in interpreting what we observe and measure. Of course, like any tool, it has its limitations, but it works very well for the kinds of questions it was designed to answer, such as, "How does this thing work?".


Science is harder to believe or "trust" in because it changes daily and rapidly before our eyes. So say you trust in some new discovery and you soon find out that it's not true and so they come up with other ideas and such. Trying to trust or believe in something that constantly changes is more difficult to put your trust in unlike God, Christ, whom never changes; He is immutable and unchanging. Isn't that easier to trust and believe in..

Honestly... I'd say that a god that never changes is scarier than science that changes all the time. Things that never change are unnatural. There is nothing in this world that over time has not changed - today's mountain is tomorrow's riverbed.

I think this is a matter of perspective. To some, God and Jesus are comforting and science is hard to trust. To others, Science is comforting with its logic, and God and Jesus are hard to trust.

What I don't understand, is why you believe god exists. Ok... God created everything in the world, but who created God? What proof do we have? And if God loves us so much, then why are all these terrible things still happening? I think religion is a good thing, keeps your morals and values straight, but I've never had and never will have faith.

Science is harder to believe or "trust" in because it changes daily and rapidly before our eyes. So say you trust in some new discovery and you soon find out that it's not true and so they come up with other ideas and such. Trying to trust or believe in something that constantly changes is more difficult to put your trust in unlike God, Christ, whom never changes; He is immutable and unchanging. Isn't that easier to trust and believe in..
Well, yes, as several have said, science is all about challenging current explanations for observable phenomena, so if rigid inflexibility is what you're looking for, religious dogma is a much better fit. Enjoy!

What I don't understand, is why you believe god exists. Ok....God created everything in the world, but who created God? What proof do we have? And if God loves us so much, then why are all these terrible things still happening? I think religion is a good thing, keeps your morals and values straight, but I've never had and never will have faith.

I've always wondered that myself,"Who created God?" but that is just where faith comes into play. I underdstand a lot of people need proof and logic to comprehend it. But we do have proof that there is a God or a higher being if you will. C.S. Lewis once said that "Pain and death is God's microphone to deaf world." Bad things happen for many reasons, reasons we may not even see or understand half the time, to teach us, build us up, let Him be known and seen... But it doesn't mean that the bad is going unnoticed.

Honestly....I'd say that a god that never changes is scarier than science that changes all the time. Things that never change are unnatural. There is nothing in this world that over time has not changed - today's mountain is tomorrow's riverbed.


How is the instability of science less scary compared to God who never changes.. Sure change can be good and helpful but it can also be the complete opposite...

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

excon

What I don't understand, is why you believe god exists. Ok....God created everything in the world, but who created God? What proof do we have? And if God loves us so much, then why are all these terrible things still happening? I think religion is a good thing, keeps your morals and values straight, but I've never had and never will have faith.


The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesn't have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isn't a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasn't a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengeance be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just don't do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesn't sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesn't sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isn't right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.


That is not what I am saying at all. What I AM saying is that they both combine together very well. Christians use a lol of science to help explain many things. What am I to be convinced of? That they aren't and are completely separate and different and don't belong together in any way or form?

I know what science is, granted I may not know everything there is to know about it but who really does know everything possible(as of on this Earth)? I do, however, know enough to decipher on my own what I believe and hold to be true.

The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesnt have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isnt a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasnt a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengence be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just dont do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesnt sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesnt sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isnt right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

Bible Errors and Contradictions (http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm)

And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles (http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2005/11/7-e-z-steps-to-get-handy-collection-of.php)

Happy reading!

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

excon


What a pastor says and what is real, I know that is different. Pastors cannot say many things that are contraversial. What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong. What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong. People don't even know that for almost every theory out there currently, there are theorys with just as much proof proving them wrong. For instance, one theory we all know. Global Warming, did you know they have basically proven that Global warming is actually the result of the suns heat cycles? They say that it is proven by the layers of rock alone. So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

Bible Errors and Contradictions (http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm)

And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles (http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2005/11/7-e-z-steps-to-get-handy-collection-of.php)

Happy reading!

This let me say is something I'm aware of, but as I stated earlier, The Bible has had many problems among translation and some of them is because the way we comprehend it is different. For instance, in the Bible when it Mentions God, It doesn't always mean the same thing. For instance God can be , Jesus, God, Or the Holy sprit. Second off many things that are said are just beyond our Comprehension. For instance, when he takes him up to see the kingdoms, that is explained by the meaning of kingdoms. But most of it is , the meaning of the words in our mind, and the actuality of them is different. But the Bible has been changed so much throughout the years, and that is what causes the difference in little things. I stated how the bible is infallible, but the people who make bibles in this generation and in the last ones , were not. There were the people who God Ordained to write his scriptures Unfortunately the gaps in the generation cause a lot of grief in the translation.

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity that's scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created... Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /

Jill, funny you should mention unicorns, did you know that they are mentionned in the KJV a total of nine times?

So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity thats scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created...Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /

Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off. And sorry, but,

"if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

Makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.

What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?

Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off of. And sorry, but,

"if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.


Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified.. Has that not been proven?

As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But that's another topic... My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /

What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?

I know many who have grown up without religion but found the Creator of the worlds on their own and accepted it...

And I believe that the ones who accept the Almighty later in life sometimes have stronger faith than those born into religion as the adult learns and chooses the right path with their heart , and not because the parents taught them to be a certain way.

And I also know many born into monotheistic religion who have strengthend their faiths as they grow into adulthood because the teachings of religion they have been brought up in brings them peace and satisfaction of the soul (I am one of those):)

Agreed. I've grown up in a Christian environment my whole life and I've struggles so much in my faith because it's all I've been taught but it took awhile to actually get it out of just my brain and head and place it in my heart... took some time but it was accomplished. But still if I hadn't grown up in that environment I don't know if would believe, I probably would but my answer will only lead into another topic and discussion...

What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong.
You sure seem to know a lot about what "people dont realise". You keep repeating the mistaken notion that "science" is a set of facts or a search for "final answers", even though it's been pointed out several times that it's a method, not a particular result. If it's final answers, you want, you should definitely stick with religious dogma.

What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong.
"Everyone"?? You're hanging out with a bad crowd, I'm afraid. I've never met anyone who tried to use science as a "book of false things to prove God wrong".

So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.
I'm sorry, but this is incoherent babble. One more time: Science is not "something to believe in", it's just a technique for continually improving our explanations for observable phenomena.

Science may not explain what's in your heart, but it can tell you how the heart works. To my way of thinking science, and God are not mutually exclusive.

I'm supposed to be catholic. But I don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
Mainly because I see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?

How did every little thing begin along long time ago?\

Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic.... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified..? Has that not been proven?

As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But thats another topic...My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /

Gluttony is a sin, no? Yes I use that as an extreme example (get a sense of humor!), but I notice you didn't comment on going to hell for premarital sex... Oh, and you're right, I'll never believe we are "sinful people" because I don't believe in sin! :) As far as Jesus walking the earth and being alive or being crucified, that doesn't really "prove" anything. So some guy was born a really really long time ago, he made stuff up and got people to believe him. He was ordered to death and a few years later some of his followers wrote a book with him as the main character. So... what does that prove? But beyond that, there is question to if Jesus existed at all, so sorry, but you still have no "proof" of anything. Here's a lovely link which presents both sides:

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm)

Poke around on the rest of the site. You might learn something.

As far as atheists being out to "disprove god" I don't know how many atheists you know, but I know a bunch and none are out to disprove god. We are simply happy to go about our day to day activities and not worry that we are going to hell. Oh, and to take your point a little further with regards to millions of people believing in Christianity, well, millions also believe in Islam and Hinduism. Oh and guess what? Non-religious folk account for 1.1 billion people in this world... So perhaps I should ask YOU why YOU are so against something BILLIONS of people believe?? I mean, only 2.1 billion people consider themselves Christian, as far as the world's population goes, that's not very many...

i'm supposed to be catholic. but i don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
mainly because i see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?
Science and religion both are about explanation. Neither one is about proof. If you're looking for proof to base your belief on, forget it. Religion demands belief without proof as a condition of entry and belonging. If you can't believe, then you don't belong, and the "explanations" religion offers will seem ridiculous to you.

If you don't belong in religion, but you still want explanations for why you were born or why the universe exists, then you're out of luck, because science doesn't even care about those questions, much less answer them. The only place I've found that even approaches these matters is the esoteric or mystical traditions, and even there, the answer is usually "Why are you so worried about this? It isn't really necessary to your next step, is it? Well, then take the next step and quit obsessing over things that don't really concern you."

What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?


What sins has mankind NOT committed to deserve what He's done to us - sent His only Son to die for our sins?

If you do not sin, does that mean you think you are perfect? Never lied, or lusted, or gotten angry, always followed your parents, etc..

Consider this, there are three major religions probably accounting for the majority of the world's population [ I don't have the exact figure on hand ] that believe in ONE GOD. At the beginning, all those religions started with people who were not brought up to believe
In what they believe now.

Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.

If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?


For example, I don't believe in witches. If you want to believe in them, fine, does not matter to me, because I don't believe they exist. I'm not going to waste my time researching them trying to prove they don't exist or demanding that those who believe in witches show me proof.


Grace and Peace ---- these we don't deserve, but for Him.;)

Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.Certainly not. How do you come to that conclusion?


If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?This thread was started by a very religious person who is trying to understand people who are not like himself. No atheist ever wants to spend time disproving god, they really don't care. Christians however will spend an inordinate amount of time telling that God is everywhere and quoting scripture. To each their own.

Jilleanleab:

If you don't believe in sin - was that tongue in cheek? - do you believe in right and wrong?

Are not rules and laws made to define right and wrong? Whether in a secular or religious context? And if you break the law, in general, there is judgement and punishment.

Now, I know that no one likes to be told what to do, or be told what is right and wrong.
And no one, in general, likes to be punished. This seems to be what keeps people away from "religion." That and hypocrisy - but I digress.

But rules and laws are there, whether from God and or man. No escaping that.
Isn't that what civilization is based on?


Now imagine this, someone realizes they have done wrong, they also acknowledge that they have to pay the consequences , and fear that.
Imagine how they would feel if someone else took their punishment [ fines, jail, a caning, the electric chair, whatever.] and they were set free.






Grace and Peace

Certainly not. How do you come to that conclusion?

This thread was started by a very religious person who is trying to understand people who are not like himself. No atheist ever wants to spend time disproving god, they really don't care. Christians however will spend an inordinate amount of time telling that God is everywhere and quoting scripture. To each their own.


NK

Then why do you actively rebut believers in various threads?


Maybe those same Christians have that inner joy and want to spread the "good news.":D




Grace and Peace

Maybe those same Christians have that inner joy and want to spread the "good news.":D

I truly hope you see the hypocrisy in that statement. :)

What is sad here is that they will find out that God does exist, and it will only be after it is Everlasting Too Late. Then they will have the perils of Hell for the rest of etenity.

what is sad here is that they will find out that God does exist, and it will only be after it is Everlasting Too Late. then they will have the perils of Hell for the rest of etenity.Hello Mower:

What I think is sad, are people wasting their entire lives, NEVER thinking for themselves...

excon

Jilleanleab:

If you don't believe in sin - was that tongue in cheek? - do you believe in right and wrong?

Are not rules and laws made to define right and wrong? whether in a secular or religious context? And if you break the law, in general, there is judgement and punishment.

Now, I know that no one likes to be told what to do, or be told what is right and wrong.
And no one, in general, likes to be punished. This seems to be what keeps people away from "religion." That and hypocrisy - but I digress.

But rules and laws are there, whether from God and or man. No escaping that.
Isn't that what civilization is based on?

Now imagine this, someone realizes they have done wrong, they also acknowledge that they have to pay the consequences , and fear that.
Imagine how they would feel if someone else took their punishment [ fines, jail, a caning, the electric chair, whatever.] and they were set free.

Grace and Peace

Of course I believe in right vs wrong. Haven't we been through this before, that just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they have no morals? "Sin" and "right and wrong" and two different things. It's wrong to beat children, it's right to donate to charities. But "sin" on the other hand tells us various things are wrong which I don't believe are wrong. I don't think premarital sex is wrong, I don't think birth control is wrong, I don't think lying (in some instances) is wrong. So what you might consider a "sin" I do not. That's why I say I don't believe in sin.

Additionally, have you even read the entire thread to understand why the atheists here have come to their beliefs? It's not about not wanting to follow the rules, being punished, fear of anything. So to say, "That seems to be what keeps people away from "religion"" is just, well, wrong.

I would just like to point out that I am a witch.

The followers of the religion of Wicca are referred to as witches.

I've just proved to you that witches exist. I know you didn't demand it... but hey! There's something you didn't previously believe proved to you!

I, too, do not believe in sin. There is a difference between right and wrong and sin, as Jillian has said. I also don't believe that some guy who lived 2000 years ago dying for me is going to save me from any consequences of my own when I die. Simply believing in something isn't going to save my butt!

As far as reward or punishment after death... well, your god says "heaven or hell", my goddess says "your reward or punishment for your actions in this life will be what you experience in your NEXT life"

What most of the Christians aruing here aren't quite getting is that regardless what you say, you're not going to change the minds of the atheists (or those of another religion) here. Most of us non-Christians did a LOT of research and spent a LOT of time thinking before turning our backs on Christianity - and for myself, the absolute hypocrisy of Christianity was the main reason I couldn't be a Christian. I'm sure that the others posting here have their own reasons for not choosing Christianity, reasons that because you have blind faith, you will never understand.

My favorite joke starts with a man being approached by a Christian and asked "Have you found Jesus?" All hell breaks loose when he, sick of this question, asks in return, "Have you people lost Him again?" and then goes into a tirade about how if you can't find your own god, how do you expect others to find him? He gives suggestions about where to find Him, including a synagogue (Jesus was Jewish, you know).

Christians, for some reason, don't find that joke very funny. Those of us who are constantly getting the pressure to convert to Christianity (because--funny thing here--Christians just can't understand how anyone could be happy without their god) find that joke hilarious.

I don't see a lot of questions from Christians trying to understand atheism in this thread. What I do see are a lot of Christians trying to convert others, and a lot of Christians disparaging something they don't understand, whether they mean to be or not. Not everyone is happy with blind faith. I was raised Christian, but never found the satisfaction and happiness with it that I find with Wicca--I'm assuming that the same is true for most atheists. That they are happier without a God in their life than they were with one.

Live and let live, I say.

Karma, maybe you need to see the hypocrisy in your statement of atheists minding their own business.
If you like, I can link several threads where you, and other atheists, have gone in and categorically stated things like "there is no god" or other things that go against the religious nature of the thread.
Such as the "will i go to hell?" thread, where he was asking if homosexuality is a sentence for hell, and you said "we were created by our parents" when you know full well that christians believe that god created us before we were even in the womb.
Seeing as how he wasn't asking "does hell exist" your atheist viewpoint on the matter was not required, because it was a question about hell, on the assumption that it does exist.

I thought my answer was excellent from my viewpoint. It was to say that basically 'there is no hell so don't let that part bother you'. I'm not trying to convert him or anyone else, nor am I slamming all those who have other beliefs. If you read carefully the OP also adds in his original question " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" so my viewpoint fits right in thank you very much.

And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.

If I were impolite, I would point out that this thread specifically asks for the opinion of atheists, so why are there Christians posting here? Of course, I'm not impolite, and I welcome people of all or no faiths to participate in conversations and express their views. Good thing I'm not impolite! :D

I was planning to stay out of this, but I just thought this post was so cute, I wanted to comment.

If you do not sin, does that mean you think you are perfect? Never lied, or lusted, or gotten angry, always followed your parents, etc...?
Yes. You will think you're perfect, and that still won't be a sin. Because whoever said that pride was a sin? NOBODY. Sarcasm, by the way.


Consider this, there are three major religions probably accounting for the majority of the world's population [ I don't have the exact figure on hand ] that believe in ONE GOD. At the beginning, all those religions started with people who were not brought up to believe
in what they believe now.
I'm not sure where you're getting your figures, but I can think of a few popular religions that have mre than one god. Ancient and modern alike. Hinduism comes to mind. And there are plenty of people who believe in something they aren't brought up to believe. Some of them like to drink kool-aid. SPECIAL kool-aid.


Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.
Yep. I see that in a thread where someone asks the opinion of atheists, Christians see the need to argue against the opinions we offer. What I DON'T see in the original post is anyone asking for an explanatino of why Christians believe what they do. Simply, the other way around.


If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?

Did you ever want to think something was true, but were skeptical? Like maybe it was unbelieveable, and you wanted it to be true, but you had no proof? If someone told me they finally made an interstellar spaceship, I would think it was awesome. Of course, that's an outragous claim. I'd look into it for myself before I decided to believe it. Or, for example, if someone told me that there was this 'God' fellow, and he was omniscient, and could help me find piece of mind and give life more meaning, well, I would probably want to look into that myself before believeing it blindly.


For example, I don't believe in witches. If you want to believe in them, fine, does not matter to me, because I don't believe they exist. I'm not going to waste my time researching them trying to prove they don't exist or demanding that those who believe in witches show me proof.
Do people tell you regularly that you should believe in witches? If you posted on this site asking why people didn't believe in witches, do you think those who DID believe in witches would come in and post all hell-bent about why witches absolutely positively do exist? I get told that I need to go to church, that I have to find god, and get invitations to church regularly. I don't want to go, and wish those people leave me alone. They know I don't want to go, yet they feel the need to "spread the good word".

Some of them like to drink kool-aid. SPECIAL kool-aid.

LOL, that's EXCON check this outhttps://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/excon.html :D

And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.

I think Cal is referring to Jeremiah 1:4-5

4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:5 “ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

That's the one! Thanks for reminding me where in the bible it is :)
Karma, you have a valid point :)
And also, the atheists here are right about the whole "this question is about the views of atheists"
And seeing as how I am not an atheist, and not some kind of expert on what atheists think, I admit I do not really belong in this thread :)

I thought my answer was excellent from my viewpoint. It was to say that basically 'there is no hell so don't let that part bother you'. I'm not trying to convert him or anyone else, nor am I slamming all those who have other beliefs. If you read carefully the OP also adds in his original question " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" so my viewpoint fits right in thank you very much.

And yes, we are made by our parents, that's how sexual reproduction works. I'm not sure how many christians follow your view that a child is conceived before a sperm hits an egg.

NK!
I am a she, a female and you keep referring to me as a he... :D

And " Also what if i kind of do not believe in god?" where did you get that idea from...
I do not remember saying such a thing, but if I did that is very out of character for me, so if you could let me know the exact thread.

Thanks

He was replying to my post I think firm, the one where I made reference to the "im gay, will i go to hell?" discussion.
Didn't know you was a chick firm! Lolz

Surprise, Surprise ;)

NK!
I am a she, a female and you keep referring to me as a he....:D
I'm backing you on this one, firm. I've noticed that you've pointed this out more than twice, and he still seems to firmly believe (get it?) that you are a HE. NK! Pay attention here! It matters!

I know, guilty as charged. Firmbeliever is a wonderful woman, she has a great outlook on life. :)

Sorry. I won't do it again - 3 strikes and I'm out! :D

I know, guilty as charged. Firmbeliever is a wonderful woman, she has a great outlook on life. :)

Sorry. I won't do it again - 3 strikes and I'm out! :D

:D
Now that I have no problems with...

thats the one! thanks for reminding me where in the bible it is :)
karma, you have a valid point :)
and also, the atheists here are right about the whole "this question is about the views of atheists"
and seeing as how i am not an atheist, and not some kind of expert on what atheists think, i admit i do not really belong in this thread :)

I think the presence of people of all faiths really helps this thread. It helps to take care of misconceptions about atheists and gives people a place to ask questions. I say welcome to anyone who is curious.

Besides, the original question was answered a looooonnnnnggg time ago - we're just off on tangents now! :)

I think the presence of people of all faiths really helps this thread. It helps to take care of misconceptions about atheists and gives people a place to ask questions. I say welcome to anyone who is curious.

Besides, the original question was answered a looooonnnnnggg time ago - we're just off on tangents now! :)


You are right on target Jillian,
I like to hear both sides, even though it does not really effect my firm belief in my own faith.:)

even though it does not really effect my firm belief in my own faith.:)

And THAT, right there, is the reason this thread has been able to go on without turning into a flame war. You have been respectful and curious about the beliefs of others, and seem to have no ill feelings towards those not like you, nor do you appear to have plans to convert everyone you come in contact with (unless you are an evil genius waiting to spring your attack on us once we all come to like you!). Right there, that's the fundamental difference between yourself and a lot (not all... ) of other religious people on this board. You seem to be able to accept not everyone is your religion and that's OK. You also do not appear to be threatened by those with different beliefs. I won't name any names of the people who do not fit this mold, but you know who you are.

And THAT, right there, is the reason this thread has been able to go on without turning into a flame war. You have been respectful and curious about the beliefs of others, and seem to have no ill feelings towards those not like you, nor do you appear to have plans to convert everyone you come in contact with (unless you are an evil genius waiting to spring your attack on us once we all come to like you!). Right there, that's the fundamental difference between yourself and a lot (not all...) of other religious people on this board. You seem to be able to accept not everyone is your religion and that's ok. You also do not appear to be threatened by those with different beliefs. I won't name any names of the people who do not fit this mold, but you know who you are.

I couldn't give you a greenie:D ,says to spread the reputation... :)

Its true... I am firm in my belief and I believe that it is not me who converts the hearts of so many,but it is in the hands of the Almighty.

But it is my duty to inform those who wish to know about my faith.
And my duty is to learn and understand the universe I live in even if I cannot accept certain things,it is going to exist.

Thank you Jillian...

Its good how this thread, despite the nature of the question and opposing views, has not turned ugly, when a question about santa can turn into a brawl.
Good on you people
It is interesting to learn about other beliefs, though personally, I need to learn more about god, I need to grow in understanding of myself and god as well as grow in my understanding of others, firm is a very good person, (and a lovely lady, even though we didn't realise it!) and is a credit to this site with her firm belief, and her curiosity and respect of others beliefs.

its good how this thread, despite the nature of the question and opposing views, has not turned ugly, when a question about santa can turn into a brawl.
good on ya people
it is interesting to learn about other beliefs, though personally, i need to learn more about god, i need to grow in understanding of myself and god as well as grow in my understanding of others, firm is a very good person, (and a lovely lady, even though we didnt realise it!) and is a credit to this site with her firm belief, and her curiosity and respect of others beliefs.

Awwwwwwwwww
:cool:
Thank you Cal...

And Talaniman,
Thank you too

I always thought firm was a lady, you guys are so slow.

I never realised she was until recently lolz :)

What sins has mankind NOT committed to deserve what He's done to us - sent His only Son to die for our sins?

If you do not sin, does that mean you think you are perfect? Never lied, or lusted, or gotten angry, always followed your parents, etc...?

Consider this, there are three major religions probably accounting for the majority of the world's population [ I don't have the exact figure on hand ] that believe in ONE GOD. At the beginning, all those religions started with people who were not brought up to believe
in what they believe now.

Also notice that on this thread on 'what atheists believe,' God dominates.

If atheists common denominator is that they don't believe in God, why do they spend all this time "proving" there is no God and wanting believers to prove their faith?


For example, I don't believe in witches. If you want to believe in them, fine, does not matter to me, because I don't believe they exist. I'm not going to waste my time researching them trying to prove they don't exist or demanding that those who believe in witches show me proof.


Grace and Peace ---- these we don't deserve, but for Him.;)


You can believe whatever you want, I respect your beliefs. It's just hard for me to grasp that you are a "slave" to someone that might not exist. I went to church last week and it was basically a cult... we have to join together to help those who do not believe and save them from hell. Churches do a lot of great things in communities, but it is possible to do that without being a slave to God. But, that was only one church. To answer the main question, I have no reason to believe in God, there's no proof that he actually exists. The one thing that I HATE about religion is how they're preventing gay couples to get married because that's what the bible says.

I think that atheist, religious people, and everyone in between share more common beliefs that most seem to realize.

Call it science, call it logic, call it God, call it what you want... Its here, it's there, its everywhere... it was, it is, and it will be.

To many people here are comparing science to a god. Don't try to compare the two. Science is simply what is observable and repeatable and the most reasonable cause of what is going on. Science is not an agenda or a belief. The only reason why people trust what scientist say is because they can back it up with observation and experiments that can be repeated by anyone and anyone who doesn't agree with what they say can put out their own observations and experiments.

On a side note the more I read what the religious people on this site say the more I'm certain that I have made the right decision in being an atheists. I use to have doubts about it, about how billions of people can follow something that was made up. After reading what most of the religious people have to say they don't follow because they did the research they follow blindly without question.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” Stephen Roberts

To many people here are comparing science to a god. Don't try to compare the two. Science is simply what is observable and repeatable and the most reasonable cause of what is going on. Science is not an agenda or a belief. The only reason why people trust what scientist say is because they can back it up with observation and experiments that can be repeated by anyone and anyone who doesn't agree with what they say can put out their own observations and experiments.

On a side note the more I read what the religious people on this site say the more I'm certain that I have made the right decision in being an atheists. I use to have doubts about it, about how billions of people can follow something that was made up. After reading what most of the religious people have to say they don't follow because they did the research they follow blindly without question.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” Stephen Roberts

I agree science can be looked into by both sides,atheists and religion followers as well.
The problem arises when each holds only to one and not the other.

As for me I believe in an Almighty One God, and I follow scientific discoveries in all its forms, archeology,biology,zoology etc.

I too have eliminated Gods and believe in Only One.:)

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.

I too have eliminated Gods and believe in Only One.
An excellent point to keep in mind. Whatever number of Gods we believe in--zero, one, three, a dozen--in settling on that number we have had to eliminate and reject all the legion of other possibilities, so we are all nonbelievers.

The point I've come to is one of nobelief, which is different than unbelief or disbelief. Basically, it amounts to a sense that the whole issue is overblown and far less important than is commonly supposed. It is quite possible to live this material life "in the spirit" without being very specific at all about the particular beings and personalities that populate the spiritual realms. Anyone who sincerely desires, in their heart of hearts, to enter the life of the spirit while still in the body, will find that the way opens for them without having to show proof of belief in anyone at all (I know, it's heretical).

Of course, there are those who insist that there is no spiritual realm at all, that even the notion of "living in the spirit" is an illusion. They might be right, but if not, their disbelief is just a choice to wait until their body dissolves to become a conscious participant in it. I think disbelief of this sort is limiting, and causes people who cling to it to miss some wonderful experiences while in the body, but I don't think it's a "sin" and I don't think it changes what happens after they die very much.

I tried to say that from the beginning... we are all non-believers in a sense... that is how I stay open in others beliefs...

“I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer God than you do. Once you understand why you've dismissed all other gods, you'll understand why I've dismissed yours” - Stephen Roberts

“I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer God than you do. Once you understand why you've dismissed all other gods, you'll understand why I've dismissed yours” - Stephen Roberts

If you could explain why/how you dismissed all other gods?:)
I know it is a quote,but it seems to be cropping up very often, so maybe you have your own explanation of why/how you dismissed them...

Thanks

If you could explain why/how you dismissed all other gods?Actually it's a question for everyone including yourself. For instance why do you dismiss Zeus as the origin of all thunder on earth?

Actually it's a question for everyone including yourself. For instance why do you dismiss Zeus as the origin of all thunder on earth?

Thunder is the crash or boom sound produced by rapidly expanding air along the path of the electrical discharge of lightning, one reason I do not believe in Zeus.:)

I'm sure most people's views on why they dismiss gods to fall into the same way of thinking.

"god of the gaps"

"god of the gaps"

Explain please:)

God, throughout history, has been used by humans to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the world.

In ancient times, God was used to describe why the Sun goes around the Earth (pulled around by chariots, chasing the moon, right?). After some time, we came to understand that it's an illusion caused by the rotation of the Earth, there was no need for a god to move the sun.

Religious people said "okay, but God still created the sun". After some time, we developed models which describe stellar formation from the collapse of gas under gravitational attraction, there was no need for a God to create the sun.

Religious people said "okay, but God still created the universe". And that's where we are at the present day. And I'm certain that if or when we find a convincing explanation for the creation of the universe, God will be called in to explain how that thing that created the universe was created.

God, in essence, is used to fill in the gaps.

Thunder is the crash or boom sound produced by rapidly expanding air along the path of the electrical discharge of lightning, one reason I do not believe in Zeus.:)
So you have an alternative explanation for thunder that you like better than the image of a mighty warrior-god hurling thunderbolts? Can we still keep the image, even after we know about the behavior of air molecules in the vicinity of an electrical discharge?

Of course a couple of hundred years ago, it was common knowledge that lightning was the direct manifestation of the wrath of God, and many thought the new practice of putting lightning rods on houses was blasphemous because it's intention was to avoid a punishment that God might decide to deliver.

God, throughout history, has been used by humans to fill the gaps in our knowledge about the world.
The Explanation of Last Resort.

Lightning and other natural forces are a blessing to mankind but then again there are times when they are the wrath of the Almighty and it works as a reminder for all.

Lightning and other natural forces are a blessing to mankind but then again there are times when they are the wrath of the Almighty and it works as a reminder for all.
I'm curious about this. Could you explain exactly when or under what circumstances natural disasters should be interpreted as the wrath of the Almighty?

excon agrees: I like it. A gap God.

Does Gap God wear khakis and white t-shirts? Or is it black this season? Either way, I love the jeans that Gap God makes. Gap God takes lots of my money. Gap God Junior (aka Old Navy) takes a lot of my money too. Gap God Senior (aka Bannana Republic) takes it sometimes, too. Darn that Gap God!

I'm curious about this. Could you explain exactly when or under what circumstances natural disasters should be interpreted as the wrath of the Almighty?

Maybe wrath is too strong a word, I should have used it is a sign of the power of the Almighty and lest we forget His existence, He shows signs in different ways,storms,floods,sunshine,birth,death,etc.

I believe each natural disaster is an eye opener for believers and some non believers alike.
As I do not believe the Almighty to be only all loving even when we transgress our limits or that we will be left to our own devices as we continue to oppress,suppress,commit crimes etc.I believe He is the Most Just, among other attributes of the Almighty-
"Al Haakim":- A more intensive form of the Arabic word "Haakim". Among its meanings are the Ruler or Sovereign, and the Judge. Some have also said that it means the One who prevents or stops corruption.
"Al-wakeel":- The Disposer of affairs to whom all matters are entrusted. He manages the sustenance of His creation, and He watches over them.
"AS-Samad":-At least four meanings have been ascribed to this name. One of them is
- the One to Whom the creation turns to for its needs and in times of calamity. Moreover, He is not in need of anyone or anything.

Some natural disasters are more widespread than others and the thing is that even believers will not be spared as we maybe encouraging or not stopping evil from spreading in our communities/society/country and/or not standing up for justice.
Some of these disasters are tests for those who have faith and for those who do not believe may realise the frailty of life itself.Also tests the hearts of those who give for the sake of the Almighty even in hardship to those in worse condition than themselves.

Like some volcanic eruptions where whole towns are obliterated I believe are signs of the possible punishment of God and an example to those who survive that the Alimighty is all powerful and that we humans are not invincible.

I think what the Earth does is what it does, and humans don't fair to well, when they get in the way of the Earth doing its thing, and I think the Earth has been doing its thing a long time. We humans, as good as we think we are, are not the invincible force we think we are. We are nothing to the power of the Earth. What's a disaster for man, is something to do for the Earth.

Some natural disasters are more widespread than others and the thing is that even believers will not be spared as we maybe encouraging or not stopping evil from spreading in our communities/society/country and/or not standing up for justice.
Some of these disasters are tests for those who have faith and for those who do not believe may realise the frailty of life itself.Also tests the hearts of those who give for the sake of the Almighty even in hardship to those in worse condition than themselves.
There's no doubt that natural disasters test everybody who's affected by them. If it's a matter of finding strength and comfort in God (by all his names) in such circumstances, or learning the frailty of life, I have no problem with that. What I do have a big problem with is the idea that God CAUSES such things to happen, at times and places when they wouldn't otherwise happen by the usual physical processes involved, specifically for the PURPOSE of punishment.


Like some volcanic eruptions where whole towns are obliterated I believe are signs of the possible punishment of God and an example to those who survive that the Alimighty is all powerful and that we humans are not invincible.
So some (but not all) volcanic eruptions that obliterate whole towns are possibly (but not certainly) the punishment of God? I guess that just brings me back to my original question, i.e. how can we distinguish between disasters that are caused by natural processes at work and those that are caused and intended by God as an instrument of punishment?

Each natural disaster maybe a punishment for some and a lesson for others.
We cannot judge who is being punished and who among the spared are good or the bad as the Almighty is the Only True Judge.

Nature exists as I believe under the command of the Almighty and whatever He wills it will be done by "Nature".The process maybe a natural process of techtonic plates rubbing against each other or lava overflowing volcanoes, tsunamis raised due to disturbances of techtonic plates,floods due to rains and/or melting snow etc.

Just because I believe the Almighty is sending these warnings does not mean that it does not follow the natural process it has been for years.

He is the Creator as I believe and He commands "be" and it is!

So what if a volcano erupts or an earthquake happens and there is not a soul around? What punishment or lesson has been meted out then?

So what if a volcano erupts or an earthquake happens and there is not a soul around? What punishment or lesson has been meted out then?

For a believer like me it is a reminder of what we cannot control and that this whole earth will perish when its time comes and that I too will die and that I will have to face my Creator with whatever deeds I did.

Also reminds me of this-

Quran-67: 15 to 19.
"He it is, Who has made the earth subservient to you (i.e. easy for you to walk, to live and to do agriculture on it, etc.), so walk in the path thereof and eat of His provision, and to Him will be the Resurrection.
Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?
Or do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allâh), will not send against you a violent whirlwind? Then you shall know how (terrible) has been My Warning?
And indeed those before them belied (the Messengers of Allâh), then how terrible was My denial (punishment)?
Do they not see the birds above them, spreading out their wings and folding them in? None upholds them except the Most Beneficent (Allâh). Verily, He is the All-Seer of everything."

:) do keep in mind that this is what I believe and even if you do not,it makes little difference to my faith.

For a believer like me it is a reminder of what we cannot control and that this whole earth will perish when its time comes and that I too will die ...Actually this is true for the non-believer as well, it's not religion-specific at all.

It is true that it should remind all but only some think so deeply as you NK..

Each natural disaster maybe a punishment for some and a lesson for others.
We cannot judge who is being punished and who among the spared are good or the bad as the Almighty is the Only True Judge.
If it happens to me, personally, and I am not spared, does that mean that I was punished? What if I am spared, but those I love are not--how do I interpret that? Are there any general principles at work here, or is it strictly on an individual case-by-case basis?


Nature exists as I believe under the command of the Almighty and whatever He wills it will be done by "Nature".The process maybe a natural process of techtonic plates rubbing against each other or lava overflowing volcanoes, tsunamis raised due to disturbances of techtonic plates,floods due to rains and/or melting snow etc.

Just because I believe the Almighty is sending these warnings does not mean that it does not follow the natural process it has been for years.

He is the Creator as I believe and He commands "be" and it is!
It sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, natural disasters are the result of natural processes working according to the laws of chemistry and physics. On the other hand, they are also directed and controlled by the Almighty as instruments of punishment and instruction. I'm still having trouble understanding how this works. I can see the value in believing that the Almighty cares about our sorrows and losses, and helps us learn spiritual lessons from them, and endure them without recrimination and bitterness, but I don't see either the need or the benefit of believing that He CAUSES these things to happen in any direct, specific, immediate sense. If natural processes are sufficient to explain the cause, why suppose that God is directly involved in that aspect of it at all?


do keep in mind that this is what I believe and even if you do not,it makes little difference to my faith.
I'm just trying to understand what you DO believe. So far, I'm befuddled.

If it happens to me, personally, and I am not spared, does that mean that I was punished? What if I am spared, but those I love are not--how do I interpret that? Are there any general principles at work here, or is it strictly on an individual case-by-case basis?
It sounds to me like you are trying to have it both ways: On the one hand, natural disasters are the result of natural processes working according to the laws of chemistry and physics. On the other hand, they are also directed and controlled by the Almighty as instruments of punishment and instruction. I'm still having trouble understanding how this works. I can see the value in believing that the Almighty cares about our sorrows and losses, and helps us learn spiritual lessons from them, and endure them without recrimination and bitterness, but I don't see either the need or the benefit of believing that He CAUSES these things to happen in any direct, specific, immediate sense. If natural processes are sufficient to explain the cause, why suppose that God is directly involved in that aspect of it at all?
I'm just trying to understand what you DO believe. So far, I'm befuddled.

Ordinary guy,
I think you are trying to put me in a box with a nice label which says I either believe in God or I believe in natural disasters being just that,natural:)

I believe the natural processes exist(explainable by science),but all of it obeys the divine Laws and obeys its Creator except humans and jinns which has been given free will.

I believe that all things that exist on this universe and beyond obeys the command of the Almighty. Hence He just has to say "be" and an earthquake can occur where it has never occurred before.Or a tornado could sweep through a town destroying some houses while leaving others untouched.

Everything on this earth is a process that started(by the Almighty) billions etc of years ago.This process involves many natural processes and each one is being guided by the Almighty.
And in each disaster believers are tested,by being in hardship,by losing loved ones,by losing property,but this does not mean those that are spared are loved or not loved by the Almighty.
Wealth and happiness are also tests of the Almighty, whether we spend in good causes or just blindly spend without thought on things that the Almighty has forbidden.

We cannot pinpoint and say so and so is being punished because of such and such deed,that is only with the Almighty as we could never know what is in the hearts of others.

And the final judgement is on the Day of Resurrection I believe and on that day each soul will receive what it has reaped in this lifetime,hence those spared sorrow in this life maybe the weepers in the Hereafter or those that wept in this life maybe in happiness in the Hereafter.

I am sorry if you are not able to understand my point of view, it maybe the difference in our beliefs that makes it difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say.:)

Ordinary guy,
I think you are trying to put me in a box with a nice label which says I either believe in God or I believe in natural disasters being just that,natural:)
No, I'm not trying to box and label you, I'm trying to find out whether you believe that the Almighty intervenes in the physical world in a way that supersedes or suspends the working of natural laws, for the express PURPOSE of inflicting punishment and teaching lessons. I'm not interested in whether you think He COULD do it. I want to know if you think He DOES do it, regularly and routinely.

I believe the natural processes exist(explainable by science),but all of it obeys the divine Laws and obeys its Creator except humans and jinns which has been given free will.
What are jinns?

I believe that all things that exist on this universe and beyond obeys the command of the Almighty. Hence He just has to say "be" and an earthquake can occur where it has never ocurred before.Or a tornado could sweep through a town destroying some houses while leaving others untouched.
So are you saying that the command of the Almighty sometimes (often?) supersedes the normal working of physical processes to CAUSE disasters that would not happen (at that particular time and place) otherwise?

Everything on this earth is a process that started(by the Almighty) billions etc of years ago.This process involves many natural processes and each one is being guided by the Almighty.
So how could we tell if or when the Almighty's guidance of natural processes suspends or supersedes the normal operation of natural laws? Or are you saying that although it definitely does happen, we have no way to tell whether any particular disaster is an example of it?

And the final judgement is on the Day of Resurrection I believe and on that day each soul will recieve what it has reaped in this lifetime,hence those spared sorrow in this life maybe the weepers in the Hereafter or those that wept in this life maybe in happiness in the Hereafter.
OK, so if the final judgment on the day of resurrection is for the purpose of meting out Divine justice, what's the point of these earthly punishments in the form of Divinely inflicted disasters?

I am sorry if you are not able to understand my point of view, it maybe the difference in our beliefs that makes it difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say.:)
I think I might be coming to understand your point of view and to comprehend what you are trying to say. If I do understand you correctly, it is the difference in our beliefs about the nature of the Almighty's character that makes it difficult for me to adopt your point of view as my own.

No, I'm not trying to box and label you, I'm trying to find out whether you believe that the Almighty intervenes in the physical world in a way that supersedes or suspends the working of natural laws, for the express PURPOSE of inflicting punishment and teaching lessons. I'm not interested in whether you think He COULD do it. I want to know if you think He DOES do it, regularly and routinely.

What are jinns?

So are you saying that the command of the Almighty sometimes (often?) supersedes the normal working of physical processes to CAUSE disasters that would not happen (at that particular time and place) otherwise?

So how could we tell if or when the Almighty's guidance of natural processes suspends or supersedes the normal operation of natural laws? Or are you saying that although it definitely does happen, we have no way to tell whether any particular disaster is an example of it?

OK, so if the final judgment on the day of resurrection is for the purpose of meting out Divine justice, what's the point of these earthly punishments in the form of Divinely inflicted disasters?

I think I might be coming to understand your point of view and to comprehend what you are trying to say. If I do understand you correctly, it is the difference in our beliefs about the nature of the Almighty's character that makes it difficult for me to adopt your point of view as my own.

Here are some examples which is confirmed in the Quran were punishments from the Almighty,but it was "natural disasters".
Quran 51: 38 to 46
"And in Mûsa (Moses) (too, there is a sign). When We sent him to Fir'aun (Pharaoh) with a manifest authority. But [Fir'aun (Pharaoh)] turned away (from Belief in might) along with his hosts, and said: "A sorcerer, or a madman." So We took him and his hosts, and dumped them into the sea, while he was to be blamed.
And in 'Ad (there is also a sign) when We sent against them the barren wind;
It spared nothing that it reached, but blew it into broken spreads of rotten ruins.
And in Thamûd (there is also a sign), when they were told: "Enjoy yourselves for a while!"
But they insolently defied the Command of their Lord, so the Sâ'iqah overtook them while they were looking. Then they were unable to rise up, nor could they help themselves.
(So were) the people of Nûh (Noah) before them. Verily, they were a people who were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh)."
----------------------
Regarding Jinns
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/paranormal-phenomena/paranomal-phenomena-123294.html#post586324
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I cannot tell you whether the natural process is superceded by the Almighty, I only know that all natural occurrings happen under His command and He knows what will happen in the future.So it is not like suddenly today He decides OK I am going to destroy such and such people,
The Almighty is "all wise" and "all aware", hence everything we see as future is all known to Him.And I believe each group of people has their appointed time and it cannot be delayed or hastened how much ever we wish,each persons time of death is known to the Almighty.
---------------------

About earthly punishments, these sometimes work as an expiation, I believe that if I fall ill, it is part of the Almighty's mercy and He maybe cancelling many of my sins and on the Day of Resurrection I maybe rewarded for my patience and prayer and faith in the Almighty even during hard times.(Does not mean I will not see a doctor or take medication for it):)

The Sun is hidden during the night and we are in darkness, that to me is a sign.
During eclipses when the planets align as such we are left with a spectacular view and a sign from the Almighty.
When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die, in that is a sign for me as a believer. A whirlwind rages through a town which may kill some while sparing others, in that is a sign.
All these processes involve the Almighty and nothing even moves against His law except as I said free will of humans and jinns.
Each is a punishment for some and a sign for others,
Some who die may have been suffering before the calamity struck and they may have been spared any more heartaches,while those living learn lessons from loss and bereavement.

So if you are asking me to answer "Why" and "When" the Almighty deems it fit for a person to meet His death,then I do not know the answer to that.

----------------------------
Regarding our differences and the difficulty to understand my point, you may be right in that I do not see the Almighty as human with human qualities.
He does not possess characteristics like humans or any other of His creations,He is unique in His characteristics.
Another thing I believe is that He deserves to be worshipped as One without setting up partners from among His created beings.
He is not revengeful as He gains nothing when we are in peril nor does He lose anything when we do wrong and turn to sin, it is us who are the losers.
And it is out of His mercy that He keeps sending warnings and showing signs that we may look and understand and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear and ignore all these things.:)

Well firm, your last post was disappointing. You're basically saying "because god says so/makes it happen". You are firmly entrenched in the dogma of your religion, why even bother asking questions about science? Can't we answer all your questions with "because god makes it happen"?

I mean, c'mon, "the sun is hidden during the night" and that is a sign that your god is causing these things?
" When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die" - 300,000 deaths is only a few?

Well firm, your last post was disappointing. You're basically saying "because god says so/makes it happen". You are firmly entrenched in the dogma of your religion, why even bother asking questions about science? Can't we answer all your questions with "because god makes it happen"?

I mean, c'mon, "the sun is hidden during the night" and that is a sign that your god is causing these things?
" When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die" - 300,000 deaths is only a few?

NK,sorry to disappoint you, but you see my belief in the Creator does not diminish even if I keep asking and getting answers in science.

And about the signs I talked about are not scientific explanations, it is just to make a point that it does not take a disaster for me to realise God exists,I knew that a long time ago,but a natural disaster strenghthens my faith.
And just because I believe the Almighty controls things that exist in this universe does not mean that I should not learn how each natural process works.It is my duty to learn about nature which does not mean that I question the existence of a Creator.

And about the Tsunami, a tsunami I mentioned is not the Tsunami of 2004, it could be any of the waves that hit Japan every year.

And do not try to make it seem like I do not care or are belittling the suffering of so many human beings.I was a witness right in the middle of the Tsunami.I saw the people suffer their losses of property and family and who are still struggling to get their life in order.

I personally know a little girl who lost her mother in the wave and she is getting on with life with the help of my family and hers.This does not mean that I ask the Almighty "Why", I believe in His wisdom.

I am also really sad to see that you as a fair person is judging me and expecting me to have answers to all questions posed regarding belief.
I am a beleiver which does not mean I know what plans the Almighty has in store for you and me, in reference to natural disasters or even personal tragedies.
And I do not have to justify the way the whole world works in order to prove my faith.

And also sorry to see that you have me on a pedestal of sorts expecting me to be able to give satisfactory answers for all questions posed(especially regarding beliefs).I am human as you are and I have my strenghths and weaknesses.

----------------------
Regarding Jinns
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/paranormal-phenomena/paranomal-phenomena-123294.html#post586324
So they are invisible, but can transform themselves into (visible?) humans? Is there any reliable way to tell if a person you meet is actually a jinn in disguise? I can see that believing in them would add spice to ones life.
---------------------

I cannot tell you whether the natural process is superceded by the Almighty, I only know that all natural occurrings happen under His command
Well, if we have no way to tell whether the command of the Almighty ever deviates from or supersedes the usual operation of physical laws, I'd rather just interpret them all the same way.


About earthly punishments, these sometimes work as an expiation, I believe that if I fall ill, it is part of the Almighty's mercy and He maybe cancelling many of my sins and on the Day of Resurrection I maybe rewarded for my patience and prayer and faith in the Almighty even during hard times.(Does not mean I will not see a doctor or take medication for it):)
Fascinating.


The Sun is hidden during the night and we are in darkness, that to me is a sign.
During eclipses when the planets align as such we are left with a spectacular view and a sign from the Almighty.
When the waves of the sea rise in a Tsunami and crashes inland yet only few die, in that is a sign for me as a believer. A whirlwind rages through a town which may kill some while sparing others, in that is a sign.
I guess I really don't understand what you mean by "sign". If you simply mean taking physical events and processes as a reminder of some spiritual truth or belief, I can dig it. Much beyond that, I'm dubious.


And it is out of His mercy that He keeps sending warnings and showing signs that we may look and understand and not turn a blind eye or deaf ear and ignore all these things.:)
Signs and warnings are where you see them, I guess. I don't see the intentional infliction of disaster and tragedy as consistent with the character of a kind and loving Father, and I don't worship or believe in a God who does such things.

.................. as consistent with the character of a kind and loving Father, and I don't worship or believe in a God who does such things.

Therein lies our difference... :)

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so here's the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? ......What is your personal view and outloook. Hello spiffy:

I don't believe there is a God for the same reasons I don't believe there is a tooth fairy. I'm not making light of the entity YOU have a great deal of belief in. I'm just answering your question.

My personal views on life or how I conduct myself, has NOTHING to do with the above belief.

It's no more difficult than that.

excon

They just don't...they see things in a more logical sense or whats logical to them perhaps. Some people just don't feel the need to believe in god...once we die we die and that's that.
Precicesly, on the head

I agree with excon...

It's really pretty simple... just as easily as you believe in a god... I do not.

As much as I could try and give "reasons" it won't prevent people telling me my reasons are wrong and trying to back up why I should undoubtly believe in a god.

I just don't.

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.
I see no reason for me to believe

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.Well for starters you could actually read all the posts in this thread.

Well for starters you could actually read all the posts in this thread.

I did want to suggest that...

I agree it seems to me impossible for there not to be a God.
There has to be a mastermind behind the order of nature.
DNA and everything has a coded number and the universe works in harmony
I say the 'Big Bang' was God saying, "LET there BE....!"
People laugh at the thought of God saying he made man from dirt but now they say that everything can be broke down to ALL DNA being the same it is just how it is structured.
In other words the same DNA makes dirt, bananas, monkeys, trees, grass, man, etc... BUT each thing, species has its own pattern.
There is sooooo much science in the Bible that man said different until they were proven wrong.
The Bible says the ocean has currents
Maury 'discovered' this
EagleSpeak: Sunday Ship History: "The Pathfinder of the Sea" (http://eaglespeak.blogspot.com/2007/09/sunday-ship-history-pathfinder-of-sea.html)

More science and the Bible
Science and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml)

How do atheists address or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?




Grace and Peace

(https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/silentrascal.html)silentrascal (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/silentrascal.html) disagrees: The sarcasm was uncalled for.There is not one other person non this board that give out reddies (Disagrees) more than you. Whatever cult you are involved with it apparently involves arguing with everyone.

How do atheists adress or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?
I'm an apatheist, not an atheist, but I just accept it--pain and suffering are facts of material life, not an "issue". What makes it an issue is believing that God could prevent it if he wanted to, or worse yet, causes it deliberately.

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in GodNah, that's the sole reason by a long shot (and remember it's not just your God but any god). I can only speak for myself of course but my reasons have mainly to do with having travelled extensively and met great people regardless of faiths and met some very misguided people because of their faith (intolerance, preaching, hypocritical). Plus my education doesn't add with the fables of the bible. I chose to live my life on my own and am having a great time doing so.

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace
Not 'just' because', I mean I see no real reason to believe there is one, OK the constant pain and suffering thing is kind of fuel for our fire not to believe, but still igo by what I can see.

So is it because there is pain and suffering that atheists / agnostics don't believe in God, or at least a "good" one that is omnipotent?

Because how can an all powerful benevolent God allow this?

How does one know that a malevolent god is not the cause of pain and suffering?





Grace and Peace


There is not just "one" reason why we don't believe... just like there is not "one" sole reason why you do believe.

Thank you for your replies.



If there is no "provable" God,

It is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

Sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?








Grace and Peace

Hello again, in:

If I started considering the reasons I don't believe in Santa Clause, I'd crack myself up.

It's not difficult to understand how we feel. Sit down. Get yourself in a real serious frame of mine. Begin to consider the reasons you don't believe in the tooth fairy. Tell me you're not smiling. Death and destruction in the world have NOTHING to do with your belief in the tooth fairy, does it??

I know you think God is on a higher plain than the tooth fairy, but I don't.

excon

How do atheists adress or deal with the issue of why there is [so much] pain and suffering?

Grace and Peace

Certainly it would be easy to say, "Look at the pain and suffering in the world! There's PROOF there is no god! A loving god would NEVER let that happen!" But alas, that's a little petty (to me). That's like saying your "proof" for god is the goodness in the world - nothing else, just the goodness. It's not as simple as that.

I address pain and suffering the same way I address joy and happiness - it's part of life. People do horrible things to each other, but they also can be quite nice. Nature can do horrible things to people, but it too, can be quite nice. So to me, pain and suffering and joy and happiness in the world or in my life have no bearing on my lack of belief at all. Doesn't even come into the equation. The atheists I know all credit people to their actions, so if you are an alcoholic and you turn your life around, it's not "god" who saved you, you did it yourself. If you run into a time in your life where bad things happen to you, it's not "god" punishing you, it's the way things go, or it's because of the choices you made. Personal responsibility and accountability is big to me; I try not to blame someone for my wrongdoings and I certainly don't credit someone else for my accomplishments!

What you must remember for many atheists is that we have the feeling of "completeness" and fulfillment in our lives without a god. I know that's a tough thing for devout believers to fully understand, but it's true. I don't feel a void, but I understand many people would if they didn't have faith. Some people need religion and faith to make themselves feel whole; atheists, in general, do not. That's not to say one is better or right over the other, but simply different. I think I've written something similar to that pages and pages ago! :)

Thank you for your replies.

If there is no "provable" God,

it is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?

Grace and Peace
For me it is

A true religion isn't pretending... Just look for the right one! Invest before you can ever talk like that in general... religion isn't something simple and it needs a lot of investment before you can ever be happy believing in something and never forget: what you believe is always real (this goes for excon)

a true religion isn't pretending... Just look for the right one! invest before you can ever talk like that in general... religion isn't something simple and it needs a lot of investment before you can ever be happy believing in something and never forget: what you believe is always real (this goes for excon)

Maybe I'm reading this wrong--but what makes you think that believing nothing is any less real than believing in some god? Atheism takes a lot of investment too--think of how hard it is to stand by your belief of no god when there are so many people pushing you to believe in one!

As long as you're happy, and don't harm others--what does it matter what people do and don't believe in anyway?

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits their thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs their toe do they say
"science dam.t"
Or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
Or "Oh my science?" ;)




Grace and Peace

I think I would say Oh Chit!
Sorry.. I know this is a serious thread. But dang you guys, are you asking because you want to know or asking cause you want to start drama??
EDIT:::::
Never mind, I am going to stay out of this one...

No


No drama - I'll stop with the lighter stuff






Grace and Peace

As a believer in The Creator of the worlds, I have always wondered how an atheist comes to the conclusion that God is non existent ?
Please do not think that I am going to argue your points,just curious!!!:confused:

Thanks in advance.
I personally don't believe in God or a greater power. We didn't evolve from Adam and Eve.We acually evolved from neanderthals. I believe reincarnation. I belive that when people die they turn into something beautiful that we see everyday. I'm not gonna believe in something I've never seen.

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits thier thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs thier toe do they say
"science dam.t"
or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
or "Oh my science?" ;)

Grace and Peace

I'll play nice! :)

I have a friend who used to say, "Me Dam.t!!!" That was pretty funny. :)

And I've got to say, depending on how bad I hurt myself, I might let a whole string of curses loose... Some include cursing god, though I suppose I could start saying, "Santa dam.t!". Nah, doesn't "feel" right... :)

I thought that Goddamnit came from the concept that God punishes with eternal damnation, and so you are asking God to damn whatever caused you to use the profanity, like that door you just stubbed your toe on or whatever, it should be damned forever for stubbing your toe!

Science, Santa and the tooth fairy are much more benevolent inventions, and have no need to punish with damnation.

Well haven't posted here in awhile but I have a question. First I will say yes I am a Christian and no I won't judge you if you aren't. Okay so heres the question:

If you are an atheist, claiming that there is no God or anything, why do you believe that? Aside from science and everything else why do YOU personal believe that there is no God? I'm just asking why do you believe what you do. What is your personal view and outloook. Way back in this forum someone had said that no one was asking what atheists believe. So now its your turn, why? I'm just really curious to hear.
If you think of all the questions to which a christian might answer "Because it's part of the divine plan", for instance, Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people, most of them will be a reason I choose not to believe in the biblical god.

Examples:
Suffering
Starvation
Racial Superiority (Not realistically, but in stereotyopes)
So called "Luck"
Greed
Vengefulness
War


But most of all, it's because of the people who DO go to church. Not all of them, probably not most of them in general, but most of them where I'm from don't practice what they preach. A prime example would be when I actually did attend services still, at my parent's church. We had a closed circuit TV connection to the nursing home next door. Every week, one family was supposed to help out getting all the old folks who wanted to go into the room, help with the music, bibles, and whatnot. Of course, rarely ever did they go. I started going there every week to help the guy from the church who organized it. I did this every Sunday, for about a year and a half. My sister kept having people tell her that I should really be in church, and that I wasn't a very good Christian for not going. One day when I actually went into the church rather than go to the nursing home, I got so many comments from people, including the pastor's wife, about how glad they were that I decided to come back to worship with them. I consider it pretty rude for them to be happy that I'm not helping anyone, and having people talk down on you, just because you're not in church, even though they should know you've been working at the nursing home because they're supposed to help out there too... well, it kindof makes you lose faith in people.

I'm fine with there being a god. It explains why in a closed system (IE Universe) the level of entropy decreases, and evolution happens. By god, I just mean an influential force, be it divine, alien, characterized through beliefs and feelings. Whatever the case, I believe there is something. Just not the same something that Christians believe is there.

I have to admit, I don't say Gods name in vane... ever... I even write OMGosh instead of OMG... There are guilt factors weighing in from when I was a kid... so I stick with OH CHIT!!

Ok, on a lighter note,


When an atheist hits thier thumb with a hammer by accident or stubs thier toe do they say
"science dam.t"
or "darwin dam.t" ?


Or in reaction to something incredible or so fear inducing do you say'

"OH!"
"Oh my darwin!"
or "Oh my science?" ;)


Grace and Peace
Why would we its not blasphemy when atheists say 'god damm it'

There is no such thing as an athiests, so called atheists are agnostic. They just know if there is a God.

There is no such thing as an athiests, so called atheists are agnostic. They just know if there is a God.This reasoning method has been tried before and failed. I suggest not going down that route. ;)

If you think of all the questions to which a christian might answer "Because it's part of the divine plan", for instance, Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people, most of them will be a reason I choose not to believe in the biblical god.

Examples:
Suffering
Starvation
Racial Superiority (Not realistically, but in stereotyopes)
So called "Luck"
Greed
Vengefulness
War


But most of all, it's because of the people who DO go to church. Not all of them, probably not most of them in general, but most of them where I'm from don't practice what they preach. A prime example would be when I actually did attend services still, at my parent's church. We had a closed circuit TV connection to the nursing home next door. Every week, one family was supposed to help out getting all the old folks who wanted to go into the room, help with the music, bibles, and whatnot. Of course, rarely ever did they go. I started going there every week to help the guy from the church who organized it. I did this every sunday, for about a year and a half. My sister kept having people tell her that I should really be in church, and that I wasn't a very good Christian for not going. One day when I actually went into the church rather than go to the nursing home, I got so many comments from people, including the pastor's wife, about how glad they were that I decided to come back to worship with them. I consider it pretty rude for them to be happy that I'm not helping anyone, and having people talk down on you, just because you're not in church, even though they should know you've been working at the nursing home because they're supposed to help out there too...well, it kindof makes you lose faith in people.

I'm fine with there being a god. It explains why in a closed system (IE Universe) the level of entropy decreases, and evolution happens. By god, I just mean an influential force, be it divine, alien, characterized through beliefs and feelings. Whatever the case, I believe there is somthing. Just not the same somthing that Christians believe is there.

The reason why God allows suffering is because God can not go against his word. It is impossible for him to lie or go against His word. In the Bible when God created man he said " Let us create them in our likeness and let us give them dominion over the earth" Because of this statement God Has only given man/physical beings the ability to make an effect on the earth. That means that no spiritual beings God, angels, demons etc can do anything on earth unless a Human is envolved. That is why through out the bible what ever God did he did through a man. That is why when Demons want to do any evil on earth they possess a man inorder to do so. That is why God has called us Christians to feed the poor and clothe the naked in His name because God can not just stick His hands out of the sky and hand out clothes and feed hungry people. He does Good through his people because he has given US dominion over the earth and God is a God of principle. He said His word is greater than He is and therefore he can not make a declariation and later go against it. So we as human have created the mess on this earth and it is up to us to change it and help the suffering.

That is why throught out the bible what ever God did he did through a man.What about the burning bush? The snake that talks?

If there is no "provable" God,

it is easy to accept joy, pleasure , happiness but how so

sadness, pain, suffering?

Is it "that's just the facts." and go on?
I'm sure it's harder to accept sadness, pain, and suffering than to accept joy and pleasure no matter what you believe about supernatural beings. But trying to reconcile a belief in a personal and all-powerful God with the fact of our own suffering just adds a conceptual dimension to the problem.

In my own times of loss and disappointment, I haven't found a belief in (that kind of) God to be very helpful in reaching a state of acceptance. Seeing life from a perspective where joy and sorrow are equally necessary and useful in learning wisdom and compassion, has helped at times, when I could attain that view.

This reasoning method has been tried before and failed. I suggest not going down that route. ;)

I think the "athiests" failed to because from the looks of it you all did not have anything to say when that tatertot person made him/her point. You ended up blocking her and getting HiM/her removed from the site just because you could not prove her point wrong. Sore losers;) So I am not going to argue with closed minded people because it is a waist of time. Unless you can give me scientific proof/evendence of the non exsistance of God, then Atheism is just a religious belief like any other religion because you have faith in theory that there is no god despite the lack of scientific evidence.

What about the burning bush? The snake that talks?

Exactly, the God spoke through the burning bush and sent Moses to free the isrealite from Egymptian captivity. God did not just show up himself to rescue the Isrealites He sent moses to do it. Just like the devil used the snakes body to talk to adam and eve, he didn't just show up with his red suit and trident.

I think the "athiests" failed to because from the looks of it you all did not have anything to say when that tatertot person made him/her point. You ended up blocking her and geting HiM/her removed from the site just because you could not prove her point wrong. Sore losers;) So i am not going to argue with closed minded people because it is a waist of time. Unless you can give me scientific proof/evendence of the non exsistance of God, then Atheism is just a religious belief like any other religion because you have faith in theory that there is no god despite the lack of scientific evidence.

tatertot was a troll and no one got him/her blocked, he/she did that on their own for being abusive and intolerant.

Think atheism is a religious belief. You're wrong, but you may think what you wish.

And it's "waste" not "waist"; so if you have decided not to waste your time anymore discussing such things with us, there's a handy feature in your profile where you may unsubscribe from this thread.

tatertot was a troll and no one got him/her blocked, he/she did that on their own for being abusive and intolerant.

Go ahead and think atheism is a religious belief. You're wrong, but you may think what you wish.

And it's "waste" not "waist"; so if you have decided not to waste your time anymore discussing such things with us, there's a handy feature in your profile where you may unsubscribe from this thread.


Okey... My bad, I seem to have offended some people here. My sincere apologies. Can I ask you a question with out you getting over emotional? Just answer the question interlectually please I am just curious. How do you KNOW for a fact, there is no god?

Okey..... My bad, i seem to have offended some people here. My sincere apologies. Can i ask you a question with out you getting over emotional? Just answer the question interlectually please i am just curious. How do you KNOW for a fact, there is no god?

Nobody ever knows anything for a fact. If there is no evidence for something, we must take that as evidence of it not existing.

We have no evidence of the tooth fairy or of a teapot in orbit around the Earth. Do you believe that these exist? Or do you have proof that they do not exist?

Of course you may ask me a question without me getting over emotional.

I KNOW there is no god in the same sense you KNOW there is no tooth fairy, Santa, Easter Bunny, Greek god, Aztec god, etc, etc. I think you get the point.

There is, in my opinion, no evidence for a god. Theists sometimes will point to the beauty of the sunrise, the birth of a child and so on as evidence, but I see those things differently. I also have found no reason to believe in a god; my life is happy, full of love, laughter, satisfaction and completeness without the belief in a supernatural being. So what's the point in believing in a being who will watch my every move, who insists I worship him and will condemn me to hell for things I do if I don't repent? I don't need that kind of mess in my life, it doesn't make me happy. I believe on the first page of this thread I made reference to how I think some people are born with the CAPACITY for religious faith and others are not. Try to think of it in that sense.

But, you can ask the same question of yourself - how do you KNOW there is a god? Where is your hard evidence? It's not the sunrise - that's the rotation of the earth. It's not the birth of a child, that's biology. Perhaps "god" saved you from a horrible situation, but maybe you saved yourself from that situation; no god, just you and your determination. Maybe you point to the existence of the universe as evidence for god; OK, but then why is it YOUR god? What makes YOUR god, the Christian god, the "right" god? Where's the evidence for that? There is none, aside from that religion and it's morals and teachings fitting in line with the type of person you want to be.

There is a quote which has been referenced here a few times:

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” [Stephen F Roberts]

And I especially like this one in regards to the people who ask for proof that god DOES NOT exist:

"If my interlocutor desires to convince me that Jupiter has inhabitants, and that his description of them is accurate, it is for him to bring forward evidence in support of his contention. The burden of proof evidently lies on him; it is not for me to prove that no such beings exist before my non-belief is justified, but for him to prove that they do exist before my belief can be fairly claimed. Similarly, it is for the affirmer of God's existence to bring evidence in support of his affirmation; the burden of proof lies on him."

— Annie Besant, Why I Do Not Believe in God (London, 1887)

Nobody ever knows anything for a fact. If there is no evidence for something, we must take that as evidence of it not existing.

We have no evidence of the tooth fairy or of a teapot in orbit around the Earth. Do you believe that these exist? Or do you have proof that they do not exist?

"Nobody ever knows anything for a fact" Your first statement despite its flaws proves my point. You don't know for a fact that there is no god which makes you an agnostic. Just because you have not found any evidence of something in your limited knowledge does not mean its existence is not a possibility. Its just like saying aliens don't exist. I know There is no evidence that they do but just because man has limited knowledge of the Univeserse does not mean their existence is not possible.The farthest man has been able to explore in this universe is the moon and remotely Mars and that small area is like a speck of dust compared to the Grandeur of the universe and the millions galaxies in it. So for someone who probably has never even left the US to tell me there is no god is ridiculous and absurd. Really lets be serious. So Because no one can say for a FACT there is no god, there is no such thing as an atheist. If one professes to be an atheist it is a religious belief because you choose to have faith in that belief despite the lack of evidence.

beatlejuice... it is pretty plain and simple, you have faith in God so your faith helps you believe in him. Others do not, so they do not believe in him! Have you truly read this whole post? Just wondering honestly... things are repeating themselves here...

I agree with startover22. We accept that you believe in a god, good for you if that brings you comfort. No one is trying to divert you from that so please stop pestering those that do not believe the same as you.

You obviously do not know the definition of the words 'agnostic' and 'atheist' so please educate yourself on that point. An agnostic person does not believe that we could ever prove that there is a god but allows for its possible existence. An atheist does believe that any gods exist nor is there a need for one.

No one wants to prove your faith so please allow others theirs.

beatle - editing posts on this board, especially after they have been responded to is frowned upon, unless you make a notation in your post that you made an edit.

Further, in your response to Cap, I think it is important you understand the definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic"

atheist - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist)

agnostic - Definitions from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic)

An agnostic thinks there is no way to know if there is or is not a god. An atheist denies or disbelieves the existence of supernatural beings. Thus, if I say, "There is no such thing as god" I am an atheist - I am denying the existence of god. By definition,t hat makes me an atheist. An agnostic would say, "I don't know if there is a god". They are very different things. Beyond that, by your line of reasoning, we must all be agnostic, because you cannot say for a FACT there is a god.

And we've already discussed in this thread why atheism isn't a religion, there's no need to do it again.

I have forgotten if I asked this before on this thread,but I do not think I did, if I have and you had answered, please ignore this question.

Do you personally believe in spirits or ghosts or other supernatural things even if you do not believe in God?

Good question Firmy, I wonder...

Nope. No ghosts, goblins, spirits; nothing which is considered supernatural.

Same here, no ghosts, spirits etc. My kids aren't scared of that stuff either :D

I don't find them scarey, I do believe in such though!

"I KNOW there is no god in the same sense you KNOW there is no tooth fairy, Santa, Easter Bunny, Greek god, Aztec god, etc, etc. I think you get the point.

I am sorry to disappoint you but I cannot say for a fact that KNOW that there is no tooth fairy, santa clause etc I think you get the point. I don't know. We as human have such limited knowledge and for you to say there is no god is basically saying you know everything. But I am sorry to be the one to tell you but you know nothing. Not just you we as humans know NOTHING. And man think just because he has acquired a little knowledge of science of the few things they see around him, (the earth and the moon) now he knows everything. Here are a few quotes from people who were not even christains about the amount of knowledge man has. We know nothing.

“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." By socrates

"sixty year ago I knew everything:now I know nothing; eduactation is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance" By Will Durant

The only thing that we know is that we know nothing and that is the highest flight of human wisdom.” Leo Nikoievich

"You know nothing for sure... except the fact that you know nothing." JF Kenedy

“We don’t know a millionth of one percent about anything.” Thomas A. Edison



I have enough evidence for myself to know that God does exist and no one can tell me other wise. I may not have scientific evidence for you but I suppose that is why it is called a belief. I believe because I have faith in that God exists because of the evidence of what he has done in my personal life. In that same token your beliefs are not scientical fact and therefore a religious belief because you have nothing to prove you statement.

I am sorry to disappoint you but i cannot say for a fact that KNOW that there is no tooth fairy, santa clause ectBut aren't YOU the one that takes the tooth put puts money under the pillow? Aren't YOU the one that puts presents under the tree Christmas eve? Yet you don't know for sure that there isn't a Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus? Interesting...

beatle, no one here is trying to get you to turn your back on your faith or your beliefs. Remember you joined this thread and have decided to continue participating in it. I'm not trying to tell you god doesn't exist, I'm telling you I don't believe in god. You are free and welcome to believe in anything you choose. And as I said before, I'm not going to debate with you over atheism being a religious belief; so please leave it alone.

PS: you might want to read and think about the definition of agnostic - I think you are closer to being one than you might think, since you feel one cannot KNOW anything for certain.

beatle, no one here is trying to get you to turn your back on your faith or your beliefs. Remember you joined this thread and have decided to continue participating in it. I'm not trying to tell you god doesn't exist, I'm telling you I don't believe in god. You are free and welcome to believe in anything you choose. And as I said before, I'm not going to debate with you over atheism being a religious belief; so please leave it alone.

PS: you might want to read and think about the definition of agnostic - I think you are closer to being one than you might think, since you feel one cannot KNOW anything for certain.
Mmmm, I think a lot of people are closer to being one than we may think... I agree!

I agree with startover22. We accept that you believe in a god, good for you if that brings you comfort. No one is trying to divert you from that so please stop pestering those that do not believe the same as you.

You obviously do not know the definition of the words 'agnostic' and 'atheist' so please educate yourself on that point. An agnostic person does not believe that we could ever prove that there is a god but allows for its possible existence. An atheist does believe that any gods exist nor is there a need for one.

No one wants to prove your faith so please allow others theirs.

Why do you get so defensive and think that I am trying to get you to believe in God. I totally respect your religious beliefs. I was not in anyway trying to get you to believe in what I believe. I just thought we were having an interlectual discussion like adults about Atheism in which all parties were voicing their opinions. I don't remember asking anyone to believe in God. In the same token I can also say YOU are also trying to make me believe there is no god and therefore I can also say you are pestering me with your beliefs. It just seems like when you people feel defeated and have nothing more to say in defense of your beliefs you just revert to saying "dont force your beliefs on others" which is really funny.. :D But that's fine... and Just for the record, I don't agree with your beliefs but by no means am I trying to get you to believe in mine, I respect yours.

P.S "An atheist doesnt believe that any gods exist nor is there a need for one." This is a religious belief and I respect that.

This is a religious belief and i respect that.How can it be a religious belief when there are no sacred texts, no gods, no worshipping involved, no rituals, etc?

Also you missed my question to you about the tooth fairy and santa claus.

Okey fine, so I am right! There is no such thing as an atheist. An agnostic, yes. You just admitted I am right. You don't KNOW there is a god. Good. That's all I was trying to prove.

How can it be a religious belief when there are no sacred texts, no gods, no worshipping involved, no rituals, etc?

Also you missed my question to you about the tooth fairy and santa claus.

I was just trying to emphasize that we don't know anything beyond the things we are familiar with. There could be a creature called a tooth fairy out there in the universe and you can not prove to me that there isn't so that's the point I am trying to make. I KNOW for a fact that santa did not put the gifts on the christmas tree because I put them there. But I know God changed my life and instantly cured my adictions and changed my life and my desires. That alone was a miracle because I was just as skeptical and non believing as all the atheist on here. But when I humbled myself and stopped pretending I know everything God showed me his power and that is all the evidence I need to know he exists. I can sit here and eat this apple and tell you it tastes good and you can sit where ever you are and tell me it doesn't, but until you actually taste it for yourself you are not in a position to tell me it doesn't taste good.

A Religious belief does not have to have worship sacret text etc.
Religion can be defined as "A cause, principle, belief or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion" So because it is not a belief based on Scientific evidence it is a religious belief and athiests are just as zelous and devout to their beliefs.

beatlejuice : Okey fine, so I am right! There is no such thing as an atheist. An agnostic, yes. You just admitted I am right. You don't KNOW there is a god. Good. That's all I was trying to prove.

Wrong. By definition, I am an atheist if I say, "There is no god". I have said, "There is no god" therefore I am an atheist. YOU have said, "I don't know if there is a god, but I THINK there is one. That makes you an agnostic. I affirm there is no god, I, personally, am certain there is no god. You, on the other hand, are not willing to affirm, only to say you believe. You have a problem with someone affirming the existence/nonexistence of god, santa, the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc. I do not. You are an agnostic, I am an atheist. You are the only one who as a problem with affirming the existence or nonexistence of god, santa, the tooth fairy, unicorns, etc.

You have proved nothing other than you are an agnostic. Now, if you would like to say, "There is a god" then you are not an agnostic, but your little rant about how little we know, how it is your belief, etc kinda makes you look foolish then. I'll be willing to look over that however, if you would like to say you know for certain there is a god, instead of saying you BELIEVE there is a god. Do you see the difference between the two? Saying "I believe there is a god" is quite different than saying "I know there is a god".

A Religious belief does not have to have worship sacret text etc.
Religion can be defined as "A cause, principle, belief or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion" So because it is not a belief based on Scientific evidence it is a religious belief and athiests are just as zelous and devout to their beliefs.You don't seem to grasp that for atheists there is no 'activity pursued' with any "zeal or conscientious devotion". They don't believe there is a god and get along their lives without even thinking about it. They don't congregate to talk about science. Scientific evidence is not a belief, it's evidence that you or I could see. Why are you so fixated on giving everyone a label defined by you?

I think the problem here is that "belief" and "religion" are being interchanged here.

Atheists (to my knowledge--please correct me if I'm wrong) don't have a religion--how could they, when religion is a group of beliefs shared by a group of people, with pretty good guidelines as to what actually is believed.

They also don't believe in a god. ANY god. That doesn't mean they only believe in science! Why that keeps getting thrown in there is beyond me--as if science is a substitute for a god! They believe in themselves, and that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, and that someday there will be a cure for cancer, and that the unexplainable is just that--unexplainable! Well... unexplainable so far, anyway!

The problem arises when people who DO believe try to understand it. To them, it's like there should be a hole in atheists, where god should be (any god, not just the Christian god). That's not true! To an atheist, they are just as whole as any believer!

Beatle--you DO come across as trying to sell your religion, if only because you argue the beliefs (or lack of them) of the atheists in this thread. Could you REALLY explain your god to someone who had NEVER heard of Him before, and NOT have them scoff at you? Heck, I grew up with Christianity, and I scoff at it!

This may just be the "tone" of your words as read by others, and not what you mean, but you come across as preachy simply because you seem to question the beliefs of those to whom the original questions were asked.

Really--if questioned why you believe in something so fantastical as a virgin giving birth to a kid who grew up, walked on water, changed water into wine, and died like a criminal--and that kid is a GOD? --would you be able to come up with anything other than faith that founds your beliefs in something so fantastical?

(before I get it from the Christians--remember that every religion has its fantastic side--that's part of what makes it awe-inspiring).

Well, atheists have faith that there is no god. You believe in Christ, I believe in the Lady, and they believe that we all have the ability to change the world.

Beatle,
I think you could start a new thread and ask the questions you wish to ask to atheist/agnostics or other faiths.

This thread has been alive for a while and I would like to keep it that way.

Hopefully it will last a bit longer too.

Thank you.:)

I am too lazy to read all this. But what I get from skimming through I don't agree

Beatle,
I think you could start a new thread and ask the questions you wish to ask to atheist/agnostics or other faiths.
I agree. All this foolishness about atheism being a religion is getting repetitive and tiresome. Please, BJ, take it elsewhere.

Really--if questioned why you believe in something so fantastical as a virgin giving birth to a kid who grew up, walked on water, changed water into wine, and died like a criminal--and that kid is a GOD? --would you be able to come up with anything other than faith that founds your beliefs in something so fantastical?
Very nice way of putting it. I might also like to add that a common response to this type of questioning is that 'The bible says so,' to which most Christians would expect atheists to be concrete evidence. If someone doesn't believe in the bible, it can hardly be offered as proof to them that something paranormal or supernatural has happened. I've read a good part of the bible, but I don't believe that what it says is true. I've also read Needful Things, by Stephen King, the Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis, A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline L'Engle, and seen a few Harry Potter movies, and I don't believe that they're true either.

Like I said for someone who has probably not ever left the North American continent let alone the world to tell me "there is no god" sound absurd and ridiculous. I am not denying that you are an atheist by a dictionary definition, I am just saying to for you to make that statement, it is a belief that has no evidence to back it up because technically speaking, an atheist does not know for a fact that there is no god because he/she can not prove it. No one on this earth can say for a fact there is no god because you don't know that. So you can say till you are blue in the face that there is no god, which is fine, but that is what you choose to have faith in despite the fact that you can not prove it. That just means you refuse to acknowlege possible existence of anything that is beyond your scope of knowledge. And that is why I said athiests are closed minded, I wasn't trying to be rude but it is quite apparent and that is fine there is nothing wrong with it. That is what you have chosen to believe, But there is nothing scientific or logical about being an atheist. It is a BELIEF, a religious belief because it is not based on evidence or science. Atheist are zelous and "consciously devoted" to their beliefs(as you have all shown), congragating is not a qualification for it to be a religion. So the bottom line is, unless you all can give me hard evidence that there is no god, I will say you are Agnostic or part of the athiestic Religious movement which is based on the refusal to acknowlege the possible existence of anything beyong their individual scope of knowledge. So I am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, I'm out!

Yea, I'm just going to put you on my Ignore list now.

Omg... for YOU to throw "close-minded" out there is... well, the irony kills me.

To me, it is Christians like you that are close-minded. Your little brain just can't wrap around the idea that there is a difference in believing in something and having it be a religion, can it?

Let's make it nice and easy.

Christianity is a BELIEF.
Lutheranism is a RELIGION.

Believing in something doesn't make it a religion. I believe in gravity, Mars, government conspiracies, the Lady, the Lord, the Ancients, Karma and reincarnation. NONE of those is my religion, though parts of my religion are in those beliefs. Just because you believe something that has no evidence or scientific background doesn't make it a religion.

You can't prove there IS a god, either, Beatle. Proof or lack of it has really nothing to do with this conversation. Belief, however, does.

Open your mind--you might realize that people everywhere believe different things, and that

Like i said for someone who has probably not ever left the North American continent let alone the world to tell me "there is no god" sound absurd and ridiculous. I am not denying that you are an athiest by a dictionary defintion, i am just saying to for you to make that statement, it is a belief that has no evidence to back it up because technically speaking, an athiest does not know for a fact that there is no god because he/she can not prove it. No one on this earth can say for a fact there is no god because you dont know that. So you can say till you are blue in the face that there is no god, which is fine, but that is what you choose to have faith in despite the fact that you can not prove it. That just means you refuse to acknowlege possible existance of anything that is beyond your scope of knowlege. And that is why i said athiests are closed minded, i wasnt trying to be rude but it is quite apparent and that is fine there is nothing wrong with it. That is what you have chosen to believe, But there is nothing scientific or logical about being an athiest. It is a BELIEF, a religious belief because it is not based on evidence or science. Athiest are zelous and "consciously devoted" to their beliefs(as you have all shown), congragating is not a qualification for it to be a religion. So the bottom line is, unless you all can give me hard evidence that there is no god, i will say you are Agnostic or part of the athiestic Religious movement which is based on the refusal to acknowlege the possible existance of anything beyong their individual scope of knowlege. So i am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, im out!

For the last time:

"If my interlocutor desires to convince me that Jupiter has inhabitants, and that his description of them is accurate, it is for him to bring forward evidence in support of his contention. The burden of proof evidently lies on him; it is not for me to prove that no such beings exist before my non-belief is justified, but for him to prove that they do exist before my belief can be fairly claimed. Similarly, it is for the affirmer of God’s existence to bring evidence in support of his affirmation; the burden of proof lies on him."

— Annie Besant, Why I Do Not Believe in God (London, 1887)

The onus of proof is on you, not me.

For the last time:

"If my interlocutor desires to convince me that Jupiter has inhabitants, and that his description of them is accurate, it is for him to bring forward evidence in support of his contention. The burden of proof evidently lies on him; it is not for me to prove that no such beings exist before my non-belief is justified, but for him to prove that they do exist before my belief can be fairly claimed. Similarly, it is for the affirmer of God’s existence to bring evidence in support of his affirmation; the burden of proof lies on him."

— Annie Besant, Why I Do Not Believe in God (London, 1887)

The onus of proof is on you, not me.


I present to you that EVERYDAY there is eveidence that GOD exists and it comes in the form of medical miracles, birth of a baby, the sun and moon, the intricacies of a cell, etc
I could go on and on.

The question isn't if there is evidence of God but are you looking for it and/or are you blind to the reality of these supernatural occurrences?

For anyone who argues that people who don't believe god exists without any proof MUST be atheist or agnostic, I have another word for you:

Skeptic.

You know, the people who don't believe things until they are shown to be true? It's called skepticism, and it's not a religion. It's a noun.

Why must miracles of nature be proof of a god?

In the 18th century, the Bible was used as "proof" that the black man was inferior.

Weather phenomena such as hurricanes, droughts, floods, and storms have been used as "proof" that god is punishing someone.

An eclipse was once considered "proof" that god was unhappy or happy or whatever the followers wanted at that point.

I admit that there are many things I can't explain, and I'm willing to be open-minded about it--which means that it could be a natural phenomena (such as biology, for birth) or it could be more. I believe, personally, that the Lady touches all of us every day, even if you don't believe in her, especially in the form of Karma.

Those things you listed are YOUR proof... not absolute proof. For all you know, MY Goddess is in charge of all those things you listed, not your God. And as far as atheists are concerned... what nature does, what happens naturally in the world, even if we can't explain it, doesn't mean that there's a god causing it.

Why must miracles of nature be proof of a god?

in the 18th century, the Bible was used as "proof" that the black man was inferior.

Weather phenomena such as hurricanes, droughts, floods, and storms have been used as "proof" that god is punishing someone.

An eclipse was once considered "proof" that god was unhappy or happy or whatever the followers wanted at that point.

I admit that there are many things I can't explain, and I'm willing to be open-minded about it--which means that it could be a natural phenomena (such as biology, for birth) or it could be more. I believe, personally, that the Lady touches all of us every day, even if you don't believe in her, especially in the form of Karma.

Those things you listed are YOUR proof...not absolute proof. For all you know, MY Goddess is in charge of all those things you listed, not your God. And as far as atheists are concerned....what nature does, what happens naturally in the world, even if we can't explain it, doesn't mean that there's a god causing it.

Of course that is MY proof and you have the right and freedom to believe whatever you want to... remember we all have free will!

I know that the concept of God not being angry and out to get us is hard for many to believe but in MY opinion it is true... God is good, just, fair, loving...

For anyone who argues that people who don't believe god exists without any proof MUST be atheist or agnostic, I have another word for you:

Skeptic.

You know, the people who don't believe things until they are shown to be true? It's called skepticism, and it's not a religion. It's a noun.
And...

I present to you that EVERYDAY there is eveidence that GOD exists and it comes in the form of medical miracles, birth of a baby, the sun and moon, the intricacies of a cell, etc
I could go on and on.

The question isn't if there is evidence of God but are you looking for it and/or are you blind to the reality of these supernatural occurances?

As Synnen pointed out, those things are "proof" to you, not to me. The things you say are "proof" can be explained in other ways, though, for the sake of this thread, I'm not interested in debating that. Think of it this way: I can say there is proof of evolution. The evidence presented to me causes me to believe in evolution. You (the collective you), deny evolution. I can say a million times, "but look at the proof!" and you don't care, it's not proof to you. Same thing.

Look, mountain_man, all other theists reading this thread - you have "found" god. You have your beliefs, and that's great, good for you. Really, I mean that, good for you. If the belief in god and the "proof" in his existence is shown to you, and that makes you happy, then that's wonderful. But why must you be so insistent everyone else see it the same way as you? The birth of a child is not a godly miracle to me, neither is the sunrise. They are things than happen in the natural world which can be otherwise explained. The only thing, and I mean ONLY thing that will turn me into a believer is if god himself/herself appears before me, says "Hey! I EXIST dangit!" and then is gone. Until that happens, I'm not going to believe, no matter how many babies are born.

And sorry, but the question IS if there is evidence for god - you believe in god because you have what you consider evidence, not "just because". I have seen no evidence, therefore, I don't believe.

As Synnen pointed out, those things are "proof" to you, not to me. The things you say are "proof" can be explained in other ways, though, for the sake of this thread, I'm not interested in debating that. Think of it this way: I can say there is proof of evolution. The evidence presented to me causes me to believe in evolution. You (the collective you), deny evolution. I can say a million times, "but look at the proof!" and you don't care, it's not proof to you. Same thing.

Look, mountain_man, all other theists reading this thread - you have "found" god. You have your beliefs, and that's great, good for you. Really, I mean that, good for you. If the belief in god and the "proof" in his existence is shown to you, and that makes you happy, then that's wonderful. But why must you be so insistent everyone else see it the same way as you? The birth of a child is not a godly miracle to me, neither is the sunrise. They are things than happen in the natural world which can be otherwise explained. The only thing, and I mean ONLY thing that will turn me into a believer is if god himself/herself appears before me, says "Hey! I EXIST dangit!" and then is gone. Until that happens, I'm not going to believe, no matter how many babies are born.

And sorry, but the question IS if there is evidence for god - you believe in god because you have what you consider evidence, not "just because". I have seen no evidence, therefore, I don't believe.


Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.

Of course that is MY proof and you have the right and freedom to believe whatever you want to...remember we all have free will!

I know that the concept of God not being angry and out to get us is hard for many to believe but in MY opinion it is true....God is good, just, fair, loving......

I've wondered since talking with all of the believers on this board that talk about proof. Do think you actually hear god speaking to you like "Mountain_Man this is god, I need you to go to the store and pick up some olives" of course probably less mundane or do you just have feelings that you need to do something with no rational and feel that is god speaking to you?

So i am not going to split anymore hairs with you all, it is what it is. Peace, im out!
We can only hope.

Why would you believe? There have been so many gods over the course of humanity that we can't even keep count. Why does anyone of them deserve your worship more than the other.

Religion was invented by man to control large amounts of people. Humans evolved to live in groups of up to 150. With the invention of agricultural humans were able to live in larger groups and the leaders had trouble keeping tribes under control. So they did what every great human leader does when loosing control; he invents an enemy. He invents a reason to hate and with the absence of other reasons, you hate for ideals and religion is born.

:confused: Tell me my friend, what is your purpose here then? Answer: to live my life the best I can and be the best person I can until POOF I'm dead and nothingness, dirt, blackness. Sad. Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. Seek the truth

Then don't ask for proof or evidence if you won't see it as such; just ask God TO SEE HIM!!! There would be your proof, I have asked that question and got my proof.

I'm not asking for proof. I'm pointing out that what you consider proof is not what I consider proof. The "proof" that every theist has is not proof to me - it is proof to them. And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking. If there is a god, and god knows everything, then god knows what it will take for me to believe. If god chooses not to do what it takes for me to believe, then I guess I'm going to hell and it's all his fault. Oh well, at least I'll be surrounded by friends and family. Additionally, when you "asked god to see him" you were under the presumption he exists. So really, ANYTHING could have happened to give you the proof you were seeking. If you tilt your head to the sky and say, "Flying Spaghetti Monster, show yourself to me!" and the phone rings, will that convince you? No, because you are operating under the presumption FSM does not exist. But, if the FSM appeared before you and said, "I EXIST, dangit!" would you believe? Probably not, but maybe. Hopefully you get my point.

Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. seek the truthThe irony of what you say here is that most of the 'bible thumpers' have 'found' god because they hit rock bottom with addictions and abuse. Yet the non-believers have had no such issues.

:confused: Tell me my friend, what is your purpose here then? Answer: to live my life the best i can and be the best person i can until POOF i'm dead and nothingness, dirt, blackness. sad. Or is it you don't believe because something didn't go right in your life or didn't understand it and you were disappointed. seek the truth

My purpose just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't care about the people around me so I make my purpose to make their and my time here as pleasant as possible. That to me seems as noble a purpose as any. As far as disappointments go I don't really have any I have a good job, a good looking intelligent wife, I don't do drugs and I don't really drink except for a little wine every once in a while. Except for maybe missing the boat on selling all my realestate holdings at the height of the real estate boom my life is pretty fantastic. All without a higher power guiding me, my life is my doing. I take responsibility for the good and the bad

I've wondered since talking with all of the believers on this board that talk about proof. Do think you actually hear god speaking to you like "Mountain_Man this is god, I need you to go to the store and pick up some olives" of course probably less mundane or do you just have feelings that you need to do something with no rational and feel that is god speaking to you?

It is really all about a relationship with God. I feel a spiritual connection with God when I seek Him (ie prayer, worship, study etc) He doesn't ask me to go get olives but I sense your mocking with that statement. He knows me and cares about me and yes I sense His presence and guidance. I don't audibly hear Him command me, like the media protrays but that is not to say it hasn't happened to others just not to me.

You have the right and the freedom to your set of beliefs.

"And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking"

This is your quote and you won't know until you try. But the kicker is you have to want to know not just being out to test Him. It is your choice!

What's the point in choosing to believe in something u nhave no proof of? Why devote your time to praying and going to church if you have no proof god exists? That time could be spent much more profitably with your family for example. When you go to church your not helping anyone, just spending time listening to someone preach AT you.

The irony of what you say here is that most of the 'bible thumpers' have 'found' god because they hit rock bottom with addictions and abuse. Yet the non-believers have had no such issues.
Both non-believers and believers have serious issues with abuse and addictions:rolleyes: NK...

Oh believe me I've hit rock bottom in the past and I got through it without the help of a "god", my family were more helpful to me than a so-called "god"

what's the point in choosing to believe in something u nhave no proof of? why devote your time to praying and going to church if you have no proof god exists? that time could be spent much more profitably with your family for example. When you go to church your not helping anyone, just spending time listening to someone preach AT you.


We all have a "God shaped" or spiritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!

If believing in something that may or may not be there, makes you feel good about yourself then fine. But lets face it we have no solid proof either way that a god exists, not until we die anyway. I don't need a god or religion to do good in this world. Giving to the poor for example, we all know we should do this, its called humanity we don't need the bible to tell us this

If believing in something that may or may not be there, makes u feel good about urself then fine. But lets face it we have no solid proof either way that a god exists, not until we die anyway. I dont need a god or religion to do good in this world. Giving to the poor for example, we all know we should do this, its called humanity we dont need the bible to tell us this


OK

I give to charity when I can, being a student its more difficult because of money issues. But if we all gave a little bit surely the world and its people would be better off? Ive been told that I give too little, but what about pentioners? Quite a high percentage of them don't give to charity at all, they may only have a pension but they could spare £1 every month surely? They have money to waste on going to bingo and buying antiques they don't need, they don't pay for bus fare in most counties in england, that money they save on bus fare could be used to help poorer third world countries or children's charities maybe?

In a spiritual 12 step program, I see many aspects of a 'Belief in a higher power'

People are from one extreme to the other,but still try to comprehend what the other 'Birds of a feather' are flocking to,peer pressure or the like,to become more in tune with the 'CONCEPT'

It is exactly that, A CONCEPT,(my opinion)

If I chose atheism due to the loss,which my religious upbringing stated, was a lesson from a 'punishing' god,( sadom and gamora)(sp)so be it,It's a coping skill.

Can I return to believing in this 'forgiving god' when I chose to?According to the teachings, its my freedom of choice given by this god to be able to do so,He never abandoned me in my time of need,he carried me through the times I thought I would 'Do it on my own'

Is the end of this life the end of my spirit/soul... etc, who can tell?Scientifically it probably won't ever be proven, so spirituality is just that, a CONCEPT.

Interpretation of the 'religions' of the world can have too many repercussions,Are we better than.. Do their actions make ours wrong?Does the televangelists escapades make religion a questionable pursuit for the simple fact that 'Guilty by association' would make us just as bad as them,or as good and wholesome?

Atheism has none of these social pressures,to not have a belief in anything, you need only to stand on your own,portraying what you are made of,good or bad.

How many Atheists have come to your door trying to explain their point of view?Or pass out fliers in airports... etc?How many other religions have?

I am only giving some more possibilities for debate, not trying to offend.

Ken

It is really all about a relationship with God. I feel a spiritual connection with God when I seek Him (ie prayer, worship, study etc) He doesn't ask me to go get olives but I sense your mocking with that statement. He knows me and cares about me and yes I sense His presence and guidance. I don't audibly hear Him command me, like the media protrays but that is not to say it hasn't happened to others just not to me.

You have the right and the freedom to your set of beliefs.

"And I doubt if I tilt my head to the sky and say, "Show yourself to me" that anything is going to happen to change my way of thinking"

This is your quote and you won't know until you try. But the kicker is you have to want to know not just being out to test Him. It is your choice!!

Mock or joke I guess it's all in how you take it. I'd prefer you take it as a fun joke rather than hurtful mocking. My point with the question is maybe we both have the same feeling maybe non-believers just see it another way. I guess not though cause when I sit and think it's just me nobody else no presence or guidance other than my own.

Not my quote by the way. I don't disagree with it though. What is the difference in testing and wanting to know. I would love to know for certain a god exists. Even if I couldn't prove it to anyone else if I was absolutely certain that god existed and there was a rule book that I could follow to get into his good graces that would be great. So I'd like to believe I just don't see any more proof for your god versus someone else's god or no god. So shouldn't that qualify me to be able to hear god if he exists?

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!!

I'm not going to give you a reddie because it would be rude, but I completely disagree with you about this. Not everyone has a "god shaped" hole in their life, I don't. My husband doesn't. In fact, none of the atheists I know do. I'll never understand why it is you and many other Christians are convinced one cannot be happy without god; that atheists are miserable, lacking something, have a void, etc. It just simply isn't true. I won't deny there are people in this world that "need" god to make themselves feel complete, but to make a statement that "all" people have a "god void" is arrogant and incorrect. I get it, without god, YOU would be miserable. Did you stop to think that perhaps with god I would be miserable?

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled; and I have all the proof I need the rest is faith!!I also disagree with this. Myself, my wife, my two kids have no such need at all. To assume that all people have this is erroneous.

We all have a "God shaped" or spritual void in our life that needs to be filled
I'll take your word for it that YOU have a void in your life, and that you have filled it with something you call God. But it really is presumptuous of you to suppose that everybody else has a void like yours, and that your method of filling it is appropriate for them as well.