:rolleyes: What is the name of your God?

I worship Jehovah.

Chris

Are you a Jehovah witness? :)

If he is not then he has even more confusion on his hands:
dictionary.reference.com

Je·ho·vah= God, especially in Christian translations of the Old Testament.

If your jewish you never type the name God, you say G-D.
footnote;
This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place.
The Hebrew name "Jehovah" is generally translated in the Authorized Version (and the Revised Version has not departed from this rule) by the word LORD printed in small capitals, to distinguish it from the rendering of the Hebrew _Adonai_ and the Greek _Kurios_, which are also rendered Lord, but printed in the usual type.

The Hebrew word is translated "Jehovah" only in Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4, and in the compound names mentioned below. It is worthy of notice that this name is never used in the LXX. the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Apocrypha, or in the New Testament. It is found, however, on the "Moabite stone" (q.v.), and consequently it must have been in the days of Mesba so commonly pronounced by the Hebrews as to be familiar to their heathen neighbors.


Matthew 6[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Did you know that the original name of God is "Elaw", or "ilah" in both Aramaic and Arabic respectively and are derived from the mother word "Allah". even Semitic speaking people refer to God as ALLAH in the new testament.
When did people start worshiping Gods rather then God anyway?
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/gen11.gifB're bara ELOHIM et ha-shama'im, V'et ha-arets.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
While Christians will forever speculate on the word "Elohim" (http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/elohim.gif), honest Hebrew speakers would admit that this archaic word for God has a history that is lost to us. The "royal plurality" hypothesis may be a possible explanation for why the word is plural, but this seems to have been unknown to early Hebrew speakers (such as the Jewish missionary who, according to the Kuzari, competed with Muslims and Christians to convert the king of the Khazars in the eighth century). It is difficult however to translate this word to "gods," as the Hebrew text conjugates the verb "to create" in the singular. Regardless, (Elohim) is a plural forum of a more basic root-word for God, (eloh)

However, if one were to find the word (eloh) (alef-lamed-heh) in an inscription written in paleo-Hebrew, Aramaic, or some sort of Nabatean script, it could be pronounced numerous ways without the diacritical marks to guide the reader. This letter combination (which can be pronounced alah) is the root for the verb "to swear" or "to take an oath," as well as the verb "to deify" or "to worship", as can be seen as follows:


http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/ivrit.jpg

The root itself finds its origin with an older root, el, which means God, deity, power, strength, et cetera.

So one of the basic Hebrew words for God, (eloh), can easily be pronounced alah without the diacritical marks. Not surprisingly, the Aramaic word for God[2] is (alah). This word, in the standard script (http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/alah_aram.gif), or the Estrangela script (http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/alah_estra.gif), is spelled alap-lamad-heh (ALH), which are the exact corresponding letters to the Hebrew eloh. The Aramaic is closely related to the more ancient root word for God, eel.[3]

The Arabic word for God, Allâh (http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/allaah.gif) , is spelled in a very similar way, and is remotely related to the more generic word for deity, (ilah).

God as in the english way that we are using it here, latin, has a gender. Gods or Goddesses. and can confuse people from what the real universal name God means.

I posted this not to defend Islam or Muslims but to remind that hebrew was never a spoken living language until 1948. they also did not use vowels so it is ella in Hebrew and ALLAH in arabic or most Semitic languages.

I should continue to help reformed jews see more.
Interestingly enough, there is proof from a Christian source that clearly demonstrates the above.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/AllahinOT.jpg
The above book mentions that Ezra and the Prophet Daniel called their God as "Elah". The passage above is more than enough to counter the allegation made by misguided Christians about Allâh being a moon god. For, if Allâh is the moon god, then what were Ezra and Daniel worshipping?

Conclusion

Pantheist/Buddhist thinker Brett Neichin has said of Christians that they are reformed Jews and do not even know it. Indeed, much of Christianity finds its roots in the Semitic world, yet the believers of this religion are notorious for their interpretations of the faith in a European world view. This is the reason they would actually try to find fault with a religion that acknowledges the existence of the same God they do; this is the reason they would erroneously claim that Eloh, Alah, and Allâh are different Gods.

My God's name is Jennifer.

My God's name is Jennifer.
There you go

These are Gods and Goddesses. or even objects for worship.
People in the ignorant days invented many superstitions lie it.

Did you know that people used to actually believe that stars where gods floating around in space, like Zeus, diana or isis was the moon etc?

Polytheism is the first commandment you should never break, if you're a jew, christian or muslim that is, and from the roots of Abraham.

Are you a Jehovah witness? :)

Yes.

And actually, the technically correct way to say this is that I am "one of Jehovah's Witnesses." The name is based on a scripture where Jehovah refers to his worshippers as his "witnesses" (Isa 43:10) so the name is possessive. I guess it's not the easiest name because people have so many different ways of saying it. I have even been called Jehovah which is kind of unsettling...

Chris

If he is not then he has even more confusion on his hands:
I am, so are you saying I am confused? About what, specifically? Maybe I can clear up some misconceptions.

In truth, I found your post to be a little confused on some points but I am presuming it is an honest confusion, so I will address a few!


This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks,
Actually, the Tetragrammaton is Hebrew not Greek. The ancient nation of Israel were Jehovah's people and it was to them that he revealed his name so that it was recorded in the scriptures.


It is worthy of notice that this name is never used in the LXX. the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Apocrypha, or in the New Testament.
This just isn't accurate. There are extant copies of the LXX that contain the Tetragrammaton. It was in the earliest copies but was removed from later copies. And there are modern translations of the Bible that use Jehovah in the "New Testament." There is no reason not to, especially in the many places where an "Old Testament" verse is quoted that contains God's name.


It is found, however, on the "Moabite stone" (q.v.), and consequently it must have been in the days of Mesba so commonly pronounced by the Hebrews as to be familiar to their heathen neighbors.
Obviously, the divine name was important in the worship and daily lives of the ancient Jews. Such emphasis is supported (and required) by the scriptures.

But your quote of Matthew is misapplied. Here Jesus is specifically denouncing "vain repetitions" or use of extravagant prayers. Of course, Christians were never to imitate heathens, or pagans, but just because they knew who Jehovah was is no reason for Christians to avoid using his name. In fact, Jehovah himself repeatedly said that many nations will eventually know his name. (for ex, Eze 38:23)


When did people start worshiping Gods rather then God anyway?
In Christendom, it really got started in the 4th century C.E. with the Arian Controversy which eventually led to the adoption of the trinity doctrine. A careful and open-minded examination of the trinity reveals that it is of pagan origin and is not supported by the scriptures.

This teaching (and many others) was in keeping with the apostasy foretold at 1 Tim 4:1-3, 2 Thess 2:3 and other places. And in case you don't know, Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept or teach the trinity. We give our worship only to Jehovah.


but this seems to have been unknown to early Hebrew speakers (such as the Jewish missionary who, according to the Kuzari, competed with Muslims and Christians to convert the king of the Khazars in the eighth century).
Well, I would not call an 8th century Jew an "early Hebrew speaker"! Maybe 8th century B.C.E., but not C.E. The actual pronunciation of ancient Hebrew was lost by that time.


God as in the english way that we are using it here, latin, has a gender. Gods or Goddesses. and can confuse people from what the real universal name God means.
This is interesting because many people do not think about what God's name means. The Tetragrammaton can be literally translated as "he causes to become" which tells us an important fact about Jehovah. He is able to become anything necessary to accomplish his will: a deliverer, a teacher, a provider, a protector, etc.

So much has been lost by the removal of God's name from the Bible. It makes him impersonal, ignores his will that his worshippers make his name known (Isa 12:4; Matt 6:9; Acts 15:14; etc.) and it creates confusion and ambiguity which allowed teachings like the trinity to develop.

Chris

there you go

these are Gods and Goddesses., or even objects for worship.
People in the ignorant days invented many superstitions lie it.

did you know that people used to actually believe that stars where gods floating around in space, like Zeus, diana or isis was the moon etc?

polytheism is the first commandment you should never break, if your a jew, christian or muslim that is, and from the roots of Abraham.
I honestly do not understand a word of what you just said.

I honestly do not understand a word of what you just said.
Either did the people Jesus spoke to about Abraham, IN ARAMAIC and not Hebrew, and he called God Eloi or ALLA, o reven ABBA (lord and father)

Abraham realized you can not worship the stars, the sun or the moon, because the people at his time did.. Abraham could not understand how a setting sun, a disappearing moon and dying stars be God when God should be what is Immortal. but these things are not and could not give you a soul or even the life that you have. yet you may think this from a mortal view.

The rest about the Gods and Goddesses are just Myths, Diana or Isis is the Moon, Jupiter is Zeus and so one, they are just planets and these people never really existed but people still look at these things as objectives when in no doubt superstitious.

So Abraham chose the one true immortal Creator, not mortal creations, he worshiped the God that is still living and will beyond this life you and I also have hee, and te God we will be called upon consciously for all we did.

In Roman Latin, gods and goddesses names have gender value, God does not and is unique, so you can easily confuse God with man made gods and goddesses easy because they share the same names God. try using Hebrew or other Semitic languages like Elohim or ALLAH and you have no beginning and no end yet a sustainer of all worlds, even indescribable.

--------------------------------------------------------

As far as the other post, I have not really read it all but I can say in that its incorrect to call the people of the people of the ancients jews, or even hebrews when Moses put stories about Adam and Abraham on paper generations after they took place.
1-we all know that Abraham existed Before Moses , we, meaning people who can read.
2-and Moses got the book generations after Abraham.. right... :)
3-the torah, are the books which are in the Bible AKA old testament, which people who fallow Judaism are supposed to be practicing but many orthodox jews prefer the Talmud's that condemn the Torah and Christianity with hatred.

So, Abraham was not a Jew, Abraham spoke Chaldean if anything. even Moses was not at his time, they where known as the hebrew people,

And amongst the people who knew of HEBREW where "the Children of Israel". not the place Israel, but Jacob's Children, Jacob who had his name changed to Israel in the torah.

The post I made about Jesus cursing the jews by calling them devils are the jews who fallow the Talmud, the babylonian and new Talmud's after the time of Jesus have deep rooted hatred towards Jesus and even call his mother a harlot. Jesus denounced this ORTHODOX WAY TO PRACTICE religion of Judah, a singled out tribe that took control of all other Israeli tribes, and Jesus was a Jew who defected. clearly.

I know many Jews who call themselves jews but actually never practice, and they do not like the idea that all this ZIONISM will only insult others and attract problems to them for just been Jewish by name. why a head count in the U.S. of jews anyway?
Because Judaism as of today,is not practiced with the roots of Abraham as Moses ministered it. but filled with so much Bigotry according to the Talmud's, If you search around the net you will discover other bigots sharing there justification for hating Jews and even Muslims from this, and this all certainly gives muslims a positive message about the things they are carrying out on innocent people.

The Koran seems to be the only book that states how many woman to marry (biblical times allowed sex with girls at the age 3 and as many as 100 wives), to treat them equally, introduced the first peace treaties and as long as you believe in God, feed the needy and remember the meeting on the last day of your life you will not grieve, no matter what religion you fallow... this is why muslims lived peacefully the longest with Jews and Christians.

So once you the truth has been cleared to you and you continue to sin, hell is your abode, I can post links and add what Jesus stating as well. There is not enough money or treasures in the world that you can round up to bargain with God on the day you go to hell. is that is what you choose to do while here, while you have the free choice to do everything.

Anyone who has links to prove other then what is in this post please show them and I can too, we can learn allot about this together if your willing.

Other facts:
-Judaism is a religion, yet Zionists like to think of Jews as a race, the only other people who shared this opinion before this new cult arrived where the racist nazis, then today the U.S. of A. Government that states them as a ethnic minority, there is no evidence that jews are a race, it's a religion. you have to be jewish to have a israeli citizenship, not much of a democracy there is it?

-Religious fanatics believe that Jesus comes from the same blood line as Jacob and it's a race thing, again a theories like the ones Hitler used.
Racism depends very much on how people judge others based on appearance or theories rather then understanding there characters.
I can not say that muslims are religious fanatics if they do not agree with racism like this.

And what kind of God created the jews that could not possibly create another species? I rather stick to the one true God of Abraham who created everything and your conscience all together.

The closest Hebrew word to the Arabic Allaah (alif-lam-lam-ha) would be the Hebrew Allah (alef-lamed-lamed-heh), which is used by Hebrew speaking Muslims, and has been used by Arabic Jews.

dont worry about our gods name you need to change your evil ways and stop your sinning i know that you do sin just as most of the people on this god foresaken world,so dont contribute to the masses, follow the word of god,and at the end of the quest you shall find me says the lord i am the way and the truth follow me and you shall be saved.saved from what this is your question,dont listen to the gargleing rambles of the others.i say to you give up your name and change it to john as a commitment to me and my prayers will save you so that you may enter my fathers house.amen
Misrepresenting this self-righteous nonsense as the message of the Bible is just plain wrong and only serves to turn reasonable people away from the Bible.

dont worry about our gods name you need to change your evil ways and stop your sinning i know that you do sin just as most of the people on this god foresaken world,so dont contribute to the masses, follow the word of god,and at the end of the quest you shall find me says the lord i am the way and the truth follow me and you shall be saved.saved from what this is your question,dont listen to the gargleing rambles of the others.i say to you give up your name and change it to john as a commitment to me and my prayers will save you so that you may enter my fathers house.amen

Confusing long paragraph but very good too :)

You are saying the name does not matter, but stop been evil is the message.
I agree, look how long my post is in the defence of all 3 religions to remember there own one true God. well certain of the fallowers I meant.

But at the same time, the name never really changed since some of the oldest spoken semetic (afro asian) languages, and by understanding the name you get a better idea of one universal God, creator and not confuse the name up with myths.


But changing your name to John, I did not get that one.

But you made a very good point about the name though, Omniscience God knows our prayers before we start them, and who we are trying to make contact with.

But yes it comes off as a self rightious message here and there when he posts
Oh Jesus...

This is interesting because many people do not think about what God's name means. The Tetragrammaton can be literally translated as "he causes to become" which tells us an important fact about Jehovah. He is able to become anything necessary to accomplish his will: a deliverer, a teacher, a provider, a protector, etc.


Chris[/QUOTE]

The real universal name of God is Jehovah. :)

The real universal name of God is Jehovah.
Well, it's the Anglicized version anyway. Just like Jesus is the Anglicized version of his original Hebrew name (Yeshua, I believe.) In fact, just about every name in the Bible has been Anglicized in English translations. It's funny that some people argue that we shouldn't use God's name because we don't know how to pronounce it properly. If that were true, we couldn't use ANY name in our Bibles!

On a side note, someone recently told me that God's name is also the "Great Secret Mystery" of the Freemasons! Talk about an open secret...

Chris

In reality,
Only the same pagans who where the enemies of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and even Mohammed think everything is a great mystery, because they can never understand what the name God means and they never have contact with God, yet they try to munipulate the universal laws God controls and they still do not get it.

The free masons believe in the one supreme being, in arabic the name ELI or ALLAH, fits the translation. and not Ala the moon God which the enemies of Abraham try to mix Islam with.
Is clear to state all generations after him who fallow his covenant are basically Muslims, maybe not the same way we see them today but at-least by VERB... which means doing Gods will, and even the Koran states that Christians, Jews and Magis (free masons) wilkl not suffer at the least in this life as long as they believe in God's will and do rightious deeds.

Hi,
It is Jesus Christ, the son of God.
Best wishes,
fredg

The son or the father?

Not all people believe Jesus Christ wanted people to worship him do they?

Matthew 15:19 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard His voice at anytime, nor seen His shape.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord...



Do you know Jesus never claimed divinity?
“I do nothing of myself.” (John 8:28) “My father is greater than I.” (John 14:28) “The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)

Do you know that Jesus' message was not for all people?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
*


I say its time to educate people about Abrahams message and help them see there place in it all.

Matt.1
[1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
[2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
[17] So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Matt.3
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matt.8
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt.22
[32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark.12
[26] And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Luke.1
[55] As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
[73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Luke.3
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[34] Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

Luke.13
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This is interesting because many people do not think about what God's name means. The Tetragrammaton can be literally translated as "he causes to become" which tells us an important fact about Jehovah. He is able to become anything necessary to accomplish his will: a deliverer, a teacher, a provider, a protector, etc.


Chris

The real universal name of God is Jehovah. :)

No its not and never was,
Any Jew can agree with "ELI" (no name) in hebrew and "ALLAH" in arabic and aramaic, which Jesus spoke.
The Tora was in Hebrew but with out vowels, and Abraham who is responsible for the covenant of all 3 faithes never spoke hebrew, yet ALLAH was the name of God.

These is not my opinion, and if I am incorrect please post a link and stop giving yours if its not a universal God your proclaiming, the God Jesus spoke of created all mankind. not just the one the children of Israel at his time who where the lost sheep of Israel proclaimed.

No its not and never was,
Any Jew can agree with "ELI" (no name) in hebrew and "ALLAH" in arabic and aramaic, which Jesus spoke.,
The Tora was in Hebrew but with out vowels, and Abraham who is responsible for the covenant of all 3 faithes never spoke hebrew, yet ALLAH was the name of God.
I don't quite understand your position on the scriptures. The Quran clearly indicates that the Bible, as the earlier book, provides reliable guidance as the word of God. For example, Al Imram [3]:3 says that the Quran confirms, or verifies "... that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat [Torah] and the Injeel [Gospels] aforetime, a guidance for the people... "

Furthermore, Yanus [10]:94 says "But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers" (M.H. Shakir Translation--underlines are mine)

So, do you accept the Bible as truth or do you exclude certain parts? If so, which? And are you willing to reason on what the Bible says?

Chris

I don't quite understand your position on the scriptures. The Quran clearly indicates that the Bible, as the earlier book, provides reliable guidance as the word of God. For example, Al Imram [3]:3 says that the Quran confirms, or verifies "... that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat [Torah] and the Injeel [Gospels] aforetime, a guidance for the people... "

Furthermore, Yanus [10]:94 says "But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers" (M.H. Shakir Translation--underlines are mine)

So, do you accept the Bible as truth or do you exclude certain parts? If so, which? And are you willing to reason on what the Bible says?

Chris

Why are you asking me? :)
How does my post bring you to that conclusion?
Where did I excluded anything from the Torah and the Gospel?
Religion is for one God, the God of Abraham, the rest is what people kept swerving to favor there own sects, the Koran does say that they did that, Jesus said it, Moses warned them not too and Abraham told them never to change his covenant.

Anything other then this is pure conjecture by peoples hands.

People corupt all 3 religions and mix up there faith with paganism or idoltery, there are many also who do not and fallow Abrahams ways.

I can post pages of Corruption in the bible from translations to translations that even Scholars agree with them been corrupted and all but Islam since its still purely arabic and the problems are also evidance for you and I due to translations. The Gospel and Torah was abused by perverts.

Take the former Pope who past away, he was the only Pope who looked into any evidance that Jesus was put on the cross, and what does he do next?

http://www.politicalinformation.net/encyclopedia/Jp2koran2.jpg

He said it's the word of God because in the Koran Jesus was never crusified, they faked it to fool his fallowers for political reasons to prove that he was not the masiah and they they, the jews had the powers over him, BUT DID THEY?

Semitic means afro asiatic languages, basically arabic, you will see hebrew or jewish next to this in the dictionary, ask yourself why the U.S. wants to do the same thing Hitler did by calling the jews a ethnic minority add acting like they are the only ones semitic on the planet, this is the only reason it's there in the dictionary, but are the christians and Muslims a ethnic minority too? Racist thinking there no?

Hebrew was not a spoken language until 1945, it was only written without vowels, and abraham spoke chaldean not hebrew, many think he spoke hebrew because Moses wrote it in Hebrew many many Generations later.

So translations took place of the bibles you read which corrupt it for the favor of certain people, and THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DENY GODS REVELATIONS and ABUSED THIS, its in the bible too.

As far as the Koran goes. look at what the Koran says: ( searched online http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html (Here) )
Says Abraham has founded the one true religion, God only answers the righteous,this is why sinners always see mysteries and want to solve them, they cant, God only controls these worlds and permits who he wills, all you need to do is his will.


[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous
[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[3.72] And a party of the followers of the Book say: Avow belief in that which has been revealed to those who believe, in the first part of the day, and disbelieve at the end of it, perhaps they go back on their religion.
[3.83] Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.
[3.95] Say: Allah has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not one of the polytheists.
[5.77] Say: O followers of the Book! Be not unduly immoderate in your religion, and do not follow the low desires of people who went astray before and led many astray and went astray from the right path.

The bible seems pretty corrupted, I prefre the King James version over all;


DAVID'S SON WITH HIS SISTER

[2.Sam. 13:1] Amnon the son of David fell in love with his sister Ta'-mar. "Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Ta'-mar; for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her. Amnon had a friend who said to him, "Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill, and when [your father] the king comes to see you, you say to him: let my sister Ta'-mar come and give bread to eat from her hand. David sent Ta'-mar to her brother and ordered her to feed her brother by her hand.
Ta'-mar took the cakes she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon, but when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her, and said to her, "Come, lie with me, my sister", she said, "No my brother, do not force me." But he would not listen to her; and being stronger than she, he forced her, and lay with her.

GET FOR YOURSELF A HARLOT!!

[Hos. 1:2] When the Lord first spoke to Hose'a he said to him, "GO TAKE TO YOURSELF A WIFE OF HARLOTRY and have children of harlotry, for the land has committed great harlotry by forsaking the Lord."
[Gen. 35:22] Rueben the son of Jacob lay with Bilhah his father's concubine.
[Gen. 49:4] His father blamed him and said, "Because you went up to your father's bed, then you defiled it, you went up to my couch.

PAGAN PROPHETS!!

[1 King 11:3] Solomon had seven hundred wives princesses and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned his heart after other Gods... the Goddess of the Sido'nians.

GOD MAKES PEOPLE FALL IN ADULTERY

[Amos 7:16] God said to Am-a-zi'ah "You say, prophesy not against Israel and drop not your word against the house of Isaac? Thus the Lord says: YOUR WIFE SHALL BE AN HARLOT in the city and your sons and your daughters shall fall by the sword."
[Jer. 8:9] They have rejected the word of the Lord. Therefore I WILL GIVE THEIR WIVES UNTO OTHERS.
[Isiah 3:16] The Lord says "Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and THE LORD WILL DISCOVER THEIR SECRET PARTS.
[Jer. 13:22] "For the greatness of your iniquity are your skirts discovered, AND YOUR HEELS MADE BARE. I will discover your skirts upon your face, that your shame may appear I have seen your adulteries, and your neighings the lewdness of your whoredoms."
[Nah 3:4] Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well favoured harlot the mistress of witchcrafts, and the seller nations through her whoredoms.. I will discover your skirts upon your face, and I WILL SHOW THE NATIONS YOUR NAKEDNESS and the kingdoms your shame.
[hos 2:2] God said, "Plead with your mother, plead: For she is not my wife neither I am her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from BETWEEN HER BREASTS, LEST I STRIP HER NAKED... I will not have mercy upon her children, for they be the children of whoredoms. And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers."

I can go on...



No need to wonder why there are wars today.

I can post pages of Corruption in the bible from translations to translations that even Scholars agree with them been corrupted and all but Islam since its still purely arabic and the problems are also evidance for you and i due to translations., The Gospel and Torah was abused by perverts...the bible seems pretty corrupted, i prefre the King James version over all;
OK, here's my last attempt to see if you're honest and open-minded.

The idea that the Bible has been corrupted simply isn't true. Yes, you can find scholars and scientists who will support just about any theory or opinion about the integrity of the Bible. But consider this:

You obviously respect the Quran and accept what it says as the truth. If the Bible were corrupt at the time the Quran was written, would the Quran call it "truth" and recommend it be used for "guidance"? Of course not. This could only be said if the text were reliable at that time, which it was. The portions of the Bible found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of which have been dated to the 2nd century BCE, confirm this. It's common knowledge.

And it is a simple matter to confirm that the Bible text has not been corrupted since the Quran was written. There are many, many extant portions, fragments and manuscripts that predate the Quran that show the text has not been corrupted. You can research it yourself but why bother? It's a fact.

So if the Quran says the Bible is trustworthy and Biblical scholarship and archaeology confirm it, why do you say otherwise?

And the KJV is not a particularly fine version of the Bible. The language is archaic and the translators were obviously biased in many respects. If you're going to be critical of the Bible, you should at the very least use a few translations to make sure of the facts! Get a parallel Bible with footnotes to see the many refinements that modern scholarship has brought to the Bible texts.

Most of your argument with the Bible is misdirected. Your argument should be with the translators and the interpretation by the churches of Christendom. They have grossly misrepresented the true teachings of the Bible.

Also, I have no interest in Middle East or any other kind of politics. Intense feelings about politics and race relations does not allow one to reason clearly about spiritual things. True religion stays out of such worldly issues because they truly are demonic.

Chris

I researched the scriptures you cited and you have all of them misapplied. I'm beginning to think you're just an accuser, not someone interested in truth...

For example, I'm not sure what you are claiming about the account of Amnon and Tamar, but the Bible is very clear that this act was wrong. In verse 21, it says "But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth." The same is true with the account of Reuben and Bilhah in Genesis.

The account of Solomon in 1 Kings is also a warning to us. He fell away because of the false worship of his wives. 1 Kings 11:4 says "...his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." The Bible condemns Solomon for his actions!

Surely you don't claim that the Bible can't point out bad behavior? How else can we be told what NOT to do?

In Amos 7, Jehovah is simply foretelling the terrible violence of the Babylonian exile, which was a consequence of the Israelite's unfaithfulness. They could have avoided it had they stayed faithful.

Hosea 1:2 does not mean that Gomer continued on as a prostitute once she was married. The Bible teaches that people can turn from their wicked ways and become acceptable to God. Is it not reasonable to assume that this is what Gomer did?

Jeremiah 8:9 appears to be the wrong scripture--it doesn't say what you wrote.

Isaiah 3:17 refers to exposing their heads to shame, not exposing their genitals! Put down the KJV and look at some other better translations to read this scripture right.

Sheesh! I'm going to stop here. It's like you are flinging as much mud as you can, hoping some of it will stick. If you are purposely doing this, it puts you on the same level as those who you are criticizing as being corrupt! Anyone can make a bunch of accusations based on misapplying words and their meanings. If you care about truth, verify your claims first.

Chris

OK, here's my last attempt to see if you're honest and open-minded.

The idea that the Bible has been corrupted simply isn't true. Yes, you can find scholars and scientists who will support just about any theory or opinion about the integrity of the Bible. But consider this:

Chris

You are trying to see if I am honest and open minded by denying the Bible is corrupted?
Did you know that there where originally 24,000 books?



You obviously respect the Quran and accept what it says as the truth. If the Bible were corrupt at the time the Quran was written, would the Quran call it "truth" and recommend it be used for "guidance"? Of course not. This could only be said if the text were reliable at that time, which it was. The portions of the Bible found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of which have been dated to the 2nd century BCE, confirm this. It's common knowledge.
Chris
24,000 books where laying around? Why not add the Gospals of Thomas and others which clearly claim Jesus was never crucified?

The koran was not written at the time of Mohammed's revelations from what I just found out. Mohammed died 2 years after all believers took the Ka'baa from those who committed idolatry around it. his own uncle and his tribe (quar' eesh) tried to kill him as well.

The Jews and Christians who knew the prior books and understood what Abraham was about helped Mohammed take the Ka'Baa, but they never had a Koran in there hands. they simply compared the surahs verbally to the Torah and Gospels in greek to match the universal messages again from peoples handwritten ones. something many people do not do today still...

And the fact that no one at the time of Mohammed heard Jesus was crucified, Gods Son, or the trinity back then, and that these ideas where later implied by jews who translated the gospels in greek themselves years later and who where Jesus' own enemies (evidence in the Talmud) says there that something stinks.



And it is a simple matter to confirm that the Bible text has not been corrupted since the Quran was written. There are many, many extant portions, fragments and manuscripts that predate the Quran that show the text has not been corrupted. You can research it yourself but why bother? It's a fact.

So if the Quran says the Bible is trustworthy and Biblical scholarship and archaeology confirm it, why do you say otherwise?
Chris
The Koran says that these people killed prophets from abroad because after the earth expanded they did not recognize them.. sounds like demonic racism still exists today.

[2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize , they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
[2.90] Evil is that for which they have sold their souls-- that they should deny what Allah has revealed, out of envy that Allah should send down of His grace on whomsoever of His servants He pleases ; so they have made themselves deserving of wrath upon wrath, and there is a disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers.
...
[2.101] And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
[2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

[2.77] Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
[2.80] And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?
[2.81] Yeal whoever earns evil and his sins beset him on every side, these are the inmates of the fire; in it they shall abide.
[2.82] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide.


1-And the KJV is not a particularly fine version of the Bible. The language is archaic and the translators were obviously biased in many respects. If you're going to be critical of the Bible,
2-you should at the very least use a few translations to make sure of the facts! Get a parallel Bible with footnotes to see the many refinements that modern scholarship has brought to the Bible texts.
3-Most of your argument with the Bible is misdirected. Your argument should be with the translators and the interpretation by the churches of Christendom. They have grossly misrepresented the true teachings of the Bible. Chris1-KJB is the closest to the original texts.. every scholar agrees with the KJV unless they have a agenda.
2-You need to read the Gospels in greek to understand things better.
3-there is no argument, even the Koran clearly states that:

[2.145] And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.
[2.146] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).
[2.147] The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters.
[2.148] And every one has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.


1-Also, I have no interest in Middle East or any other kind of politics.
2-Intense feelings about politics and race relations does not allow one to reason clearly about spiritual things.
3-True religion stays out of such worldly issues because they truly are demonic.

Chris1-Well you need to separate the politics from the message then.
2-How can one who believes in one God take things personal?
If they do then they do not believe in the same one God right?
3a-True religion is the one God religion and not broken into sects.
3b-de·mon·ic
1-Befitting a demon; fiendish.
2-Motivated by a spiritual force or genius; inspired.

[2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
[2.125] And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.
[2.126] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.
[2.127] And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! Accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:
[2.128] Our Lord! And make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[2.129] Our Lord! And raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
[2.130] And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
-----
Matt.3
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matt.8
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

I researched the scriptures you cited and you have all of them misapplied. I'm beginning to think you're just an accuser, not someone interested in truth...
Chris
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you, since when did translations seem true to the originals, can you read hebrew, arabic or greek?


For example, I'm not sure what you are claiming about the account of Amnon and Tamar, but the Bible is very clear that this act was wrong. In verse 21, it says "But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth." The same is true with the account of Reuben and Bilhah in Genesis.

The account of Solomon in 1 Kings is also a warning to us. He fell away because of the false worship of his wives. 1 Kings 11:4 says "...his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." The Bible condemns Solomon for his actions!

Surely you don't claim that the Bible can't point out bad behavior? How else can we be told what NOT to do?
Chris
The bible teaches faith not just right from wrong, that faith was to be in God for all your affairs not been jewish alone by birth.

But so many translations lead to sects and blood cults, are you saying that they are right of doing so?


In Amos 7, Jehovah is simply foretelling the terrible violence of the Babylonian exile, which was a consequence of the Israelite's unfaithfulness. They could have avoided it had they stayed faithful.
Chris
And did they avoid it or did they loose there nation?

Hosea 1:2 does not mean that Gomer continued on as a prostitute once she was married. The Bible teaches that people can turn from their wicked ways and become acceptable to God. Is it not reasonable to assume that this is what Gomer did?
Chris
So you still agree with the translations you like, how about the fact that they do not all agree with each other or the origionals?


Jeremiah 8:9 appears to be the wrong scripture--it doesn't say what you wrote.
Chris
He says now that the wise were ashamed, and astonished, and ensnared. By which words he means, that the Jews gained nothing by their craftiness, while they arrogated to themselves wisdom, and under this pretense rejected all admonitions, and sought to be spared.

What parts did you find in error? Again the jews lost there nation, the so called chosen ones started mis applying it all.



Isaiah 3:17 refers to exposing their heads to shame, not exposing their genitals! Put down the KJV and look at some other better translations to read this scripture right.

Chris Many Christian and Jews disagree with you and me on that.. again because of the fact of the corrupted translations, same with korans, you can not make words up, learn another language like Hebrew, arabic or greek, even Aramaic and then you can see what I mean.


Sheesh! I'm going to stop here. It's like you are flinging as much mud as you can, hoping some of it will stick. If you are purposely doing this, it puts you on the same level as those who you are criticizing as being corrupt! Anyone can make a bunch of accusations based on misapplying words and their meanings. If you care about truth, verify your claims first.
Chris
You should, arguing shows a lack of faith in God, although you have the right to if your just simply trying to solve anything here like I am and I have faith.

While my point is that the bible is corrupted and you need a koran to understand it because it is closest to its truth, from what you post- you reject the koran, which means to reject a universal God.

God is one, the human race is one, no one has the right to been called the chosen, God chooses who he wills, and he chooses the righteous, those are the parts I agree with the bible, the rest which I posted are facts of how corrupted the jewish scribes where whether they where forgiven or not.

Get it?

So we either agree that God controls the laws of the universe and knows everything we do not, or one of us has been siding with a single part of a book, all 3 faiths come from Abraham, so that means the Torah, Gospel and Koran are one book. and I know I never took sides.

And why would I reject Abraham when he is the founder of all 3 faiths?

You want to make it seem like I reject parts of the bible when I demonstrated to you the same points from a universal view, not mine...

While you say your not interested in politics you play them well, if its was true that your not interested in politics then why reject the koran if truth of one God is proclaimed for all mankind and it holds the same promise to the faithful who keep all Gods Commandments, and yes the same 10 + Commandments?

OK, I give up. This is the kind of circular arguing that gets nowhere. You make so many false assumptions and commit so many logical falacies that I don't know where to begin! Many of your claims are baseless and I don't have the time or energy to refute them. If you were open-minded, I would be willing to keep on. But your mind is obviously made up.

Last word: you CANNOT judge the Bible by the actions of Judaism or Christendom anymore than you can judge the Quran by the actions of apostate Islamic sects.

Chris

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.

OK, I give up. This is the kind of circular arguing that gets nowhere. You make so many false assumptions and commit so many logical falacies that I don't know where to begin! Many of your claims are baseless and I don't have the time or energy to refute them. If you were open-minded, I would be willing to keep on. But your mind is obviously made up.

Last word: you CANNOT judge the Bible by the actions of Judaism or Christendom anymore than you can judge the Quran by the actions of apostate Islamic sects.

Chris
My mind is made up? :) you really did miss the message, I isn't the one to blame for it either.

How am I not been open minded here when I understand what you posted very clearly, did you want me to agree with the translated Torah and the Gospel apart from the Koran, why so if you yourself admitted to many false version you personally disliked?

The fact that hypocrites judge Islam by muslims contradicts your point in who judges a book by its cover, and hypocrites do NOT judge by a persons character and virtues, they judge by there own standards,

Jesus was judged by his appearance, it was said that he was a nazerian, and nothing good comes out of there because they where ethnic jews, ethnic cleansing is all the crusades did to people and the minds of many westerners. why don't you take a look at who is really brainwashed by asking some people why its so important what color Jesus was and how it makes a difference if God creates all life?

I think this is where your problem is in understanding the God of Abraham.

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.
There you go :)

This is why I bring up all these issues, they can not bare the idea that there God can be wrong about anything, they actually never realized that God can only be something a individual can perceive by there capacity, so when they hear something sounding wrong they jump.

You want religion, Be muslim and cut every thing off from the world,
You want other, be nothing, because the other religions hate islam, only islam had kept them in peace under there administration, something I was in the dark about for years myself.

And believe me, I could not stand muslims before, I swallowed all the media hype until I worked in news rooms and realized that its all true, religion is abused by the west for economical profit, they want you to think God is money and never be happy from it so you can keep spending it.
And when I say muslims I mean in a sense of the verb, so you can be jewish or christian as a muslim, meaning you DO GOD's Will and nothing other.

So you choose, because if isreal was such a demacracy then why is it that only if your jewish gives you a passport and citizenship?

DO GOD's Will and nothing other
OK, next to last word.

So what is God's will, then? Where can it be found? If it can be found in the Quran, then you must respect the Bible too.

But because you invalidate the Bible, you invalidate the Quran, and then where do you claim to find God's will?

Chris

This thread is an example of why I find religion to be a scary thing. Best to live your life without it and not fight with your fellow man.
NeedKarma's response is the fruitage of false religion. Jesus said you would know the tree by it's fruits, so what does this tell us? Hypocritical religions have turned thinking people away from their creator and encouraged them to ignore his word by misrepresenting what it says. That is why we see such desperate conditions in the world today.

But if you want peace and genuine Bible-based teachings right now, go to a Kingdom Hall or better still, an international convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, where people sincerely try to practice what the Bible teaches and where no one judges by race, engages in politics, or glorifies war and nationalism.

Then you'll see something you've never seen before--true peace among people from all nations, in fulfillment of the words of Isaiah:


Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
Many people shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

Isaiah 2:2-4
(And before you get all bent out of shape, G4-450, in our day that is a "spritual" Jerusalem, not literal Jerusalem.)

Eventually, this will be earthwide. Read Psalm 37 for a wonderful prophecy about this time.

Chris

NeedKarma's response is the fruitage of false religion.
Chris
Wrong, it's based on NO religion. That way there are no hypocrites, no jihads, no crusades, etc. Nice eh? Simply apply the golden rule as your morality base and Bob's your uncle.

Wrong, it's based on NO religion. That way there are no hypocrites, no jihads, no crusades, etc. Nice eh? Simply apply the golden rule as your morality base and Bob's your uncle.
What I meant was that your response to religion is a common one because people are so disgusted with the hypocrites, jihads, crusades, etc. found in false religion.

It's good that you do at least recognize the wisdom of the Bible's guidance with the "Golden Rule." If everyone practiced the golden rule, wouldn't the world be just swell? Well, the Bible says it WILL be like that on the earth in the (near) future. Then Bob will be everyone's uncle.

The question then is, will you and those you care about be there to enjoy it?

You need to figure out for yourself if the Bible is the truth or not because the stakes are high. But like I keep saying, don't dismiss the Bible as wishful thinking just because of the track record of the hypocrites who claim to obey it.

Here's the thing: false religion may teach the golden rule, but only true religion practices it. Look around and judge for yourself who is who.

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.

www.watchtower.org

Chris

OK, next to last word.

1-So what is God's will, then? Where can it be found? If it can be found in the Quran, then you must respect the Bible too.

But because you invalidate the Bible, you invalidate the Quran, and then where do you claim to find God's will?

Chris

Hey Chris,

Why is it that you assume that whenever someone reads the Koran they reject the bible??

And you never answered any of my questions...

Here are my answers as usual:
1-the commandments found in the Bible given to Moses during pre judaic times (before the children of Isreal formed 12 tribes) are the same for the children of Ishmael (muslims). that means both Jews and Muslims. And they are in the Koran.. same laws for not eating pork and all.

2-Jesus ministered the same commandments, only he is clear evidence for you to who and why he claimed corrupted the Torah with there hands.

I agree with 1 & 2.

So I never disrespected the bible ever, I said there is so much corruption in it that you need to dig through years like I did until you finally realized that God is one and his message is to fallow his commandments in order to obtain his grace, just like Jesus and everyone before him said and got killed for it too.

Most people who fallow the conjecture and fall short into Islam-phobia and lie usually have it in there heads that Muslims hate jews and its all in the Koran.

Jesus

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord...

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*

Matthew. 5:17-19
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.
*

John 4:23-24
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 15:19
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed...
Also Joshua 5:15, 1 Kings 18:42, Numbers 20:6, Genesis 17:3
*


Simple googeling around helps get quick results.
http://www.submission.org/quran/ten.html (The commandments in the Qur'an and Bible:)

The Ten Commandments
(Exodus 20: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21) Confirmation in the Quran

Bible
1Thou shall not take any god except one God.

Koran "There is no other god beside GOD,"(47:19)
He is the one God; there is no other god beside Him.. . (28:70)

2 Thou shall make no image of God.

Koran
2 There is nothing that equals (like) Him. (42:11)
No visions can encompass Him, but He
Encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.[6:103]

"My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols. (14:35)

Bible
3 Thou shall not use God's name in vain.

Koran 3 Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious,
or to attain credibility among the people. (2:224)

Bible
4 Thou shall honor thy mother and father.

Koran
4 . ....and your parents shall be
honored. As long as one or
both of them live, you shall
never say to them, "Uff"
(the slightest gesture of annoyance),
Nor shall you shout at them; you
Shall treat them amicably. (17:23)

Bible
5 Thou shall not steal.

Koran
5 The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and
To serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. (5:38 - 39)

Bible
6 Thou shall not lie or give false testimony.

Koran
6 ... incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying. (24:7)
Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds
A testimony is sinful at heart. (2:283)

O you who believe, you shall be absolutely
Equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of
Everything you do.[4:135]


Bible
7 Thou shall not kill.

Koran
7 ... anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)
"You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped."(17:33)

Bible
8 Thou shall not commit adultery.

Koran
8 You shall not commit adultery;
It is a gross sin, and an evil behavior.
(17:32)

Bible
9 Thou shall not covet thy neighbors
Wife or possessions.

Koran
9 You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. (4:36)
And do not covet what we bestowed
Upon any other people. Such are temporary
Ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to
The test. What your Lord provides for you is far
Better, and everlasting.[20:131]


Bible
10 Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.

Koran
10 *the Sabbath was relinquished with the
Revelation of the Quran. We are told in
The Quran that the Sabbath was only
Decreed for the Jews. (16:124)
God, however ,ordered us to make every
Effort and drop all businesses to attend the
Congregational (Friday)prayer. The Submitters
May tend to their business during the rest of
The day.

O you who believe, when the
Congregational Prayer (Salat
Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday,
You shall hasten to the commemoration
Of GOD, and drop all business. . (62:9)

You seem to be constantly trying to use the Koran as a tool to state that the Koran favours the bible, but at the same time you reject anything in the Koran that is universal, this is where its not open minded here...

Both Islam and Judaism claim to be orthodox and Abrahamic, but one of them does not practice praying like Abraham daily like they used too.
And to pray is also a comamandment;


Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"
Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"
Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."
Numbers 20:6 And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"
Ezekiel 11:13 "And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"
Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."
Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.


Chris
No thank you. I was a Big Brother to a little boy whose mom was a JW and I really wanted to celebrate his birthday but alas...

Plus I have kids and a blood transfusion would absolutely be allowed to save their precious lives. Plus I ain't going door to door my friend - I don't want others trying to convert me and I don't try to convert others.

Have a great day!

Why is it that you assume that whenever someone reads the Koran they reject the bible?
I'm sorry if I gave that impression but I don't assume that. I assume that students of the Quran accept what it says, including its view of the Bible. But it doesn't appear that you do and that's why I asked in the first place!


I never disrespected the bible ever, I said there is so much corruption in it that you need to dig through years
You say you respect it but then you say it is corrupt! :confused:

Either you respect it or it is corrupt, but not both. Who can respect a corrupt book? And why would the Quran say to do so? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't. It says to respect the Bible because it is the uncorrupted truth.

But never mind. This has become a pointless argument and I don't want that. You are certainly free to believe whatever you want.

The Bible says that motive and heart condition is what decides whether someone will understand and accept its teachings. I tried but it must be left in God's hands.

Chris

I really wanted to celebrate his birthday but alas
People act like you're depriving your kids if you don't have birthday parties! Says who? I've done my share and while the kids loved to get goodies, I also saw a lot of jealousy, selfishness and "me-me-me." I don't miss that at all, and neither do my kids. I don't wait for a special day anymore--I show my kids they are special every day.


Plus I have kids and a blood transfusion would absolutely be allowed to save their precious lives.
I have precious children too, who God has entrusted to me, and I love them so much that I would never jeopardize their eternal lives by violating God's laws on the sacredness of blood. The Bible's promises of eternal life--even if we should die now--are so sure that I will obey God and trust him implicitly, like Abraham did with Isaac.

For those who say there is no God and no hope of eternal life, it is understandable if they cling to this imperfect life no matter what. Christians, however, have a higher obligation.


I ain't going door to door my friend... I don't want others trying to convert me and I don't try to convert others.
If you learned something that would greatly benefit others, like how to make their lives better or maybe even cure a serious illness, would you keep it to yourself? Or would you try to share it with your family, friends and neighbors, even if at first they said they didn't believe you or they weren't interested? How much effort would you make? Wouldn't it show genuine concern for them to at least try?

Anyway, you have freewill and can choose. Just be aware of the stakes.

Chris

I'm sorry if I gave that impression but I don't assume that. I assume that students of the Quran accept what it says, including its view of the Bible. But it doesn't appear that you do and that's why I asked in the first place!

You say you respect it but then you say it is corrupt! :confused:

Either you respect it or it is corrupt, but not both. Who can respect a corrupt book? And why would the Quran say to do so? The answer, of course, is that it doesn't. It says to respect the Bible because it is the uncorrupted truth.

But never mind. This has become a pointless argument and I don't want that. You are certainly free to believe whatever you want.

The Bible says that motive and heart condition is what decides whether someone will understand and accept its teachings. I tried but it must be left in God's hands.

Chris

Well I agree with you to trust in God, if you will do anything that is what you should do,
I can say its corrupt and still respect what is in it, that does not mean there are versions in the original language floating around..

There are many people who use the bible to propagate there beliefs from it, and they only use parts that agree with there agendas, YET...
The bible has evidence against itself that people tampered with it way back before Jesus, just understand the reasons and you will agree and still practice what you should in the bible.

But again, one who believes in God fallows God's commandments, he or she does not just think that there is something out there, they show a real symbol called Faith by sticking it all out like Job did.

So I respect God's words been they are universal for both of our benefit, you will find many arguing that there God is not your God, well I think we both agree that it's a false God they worship and a false way to do it if its god they are talking about.

But the bible is corrupt and you need to be a rightious practitionare to understand it, true, with a heart not the mind to decieve people.

I agree with you but not that it was never tampered. look;


ACTS
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel

7 There is not another. But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

----------------------------
Written by inspired followers of PAUL. The authors of the gospels are not the disciples. Any authentic website will tell you that.

You have proof in Acts that James and thousands of true followers obeyed the letter of the Law. And they got their orders from Jesus first hand.

If you read the last remaining letter of James you'll see that he's warning against Paul. Didn't Martin Luther won't even that letter deleted from the Protestant bible because it was in direct conflict with Paul?

Example;
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?

26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This is a refutation of Paul' belief system and today's christianity.

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think Jesus here makes it clear that you will be saved ONLY if your righteousness will exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Otherwise! YOU SHALL IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, and I'm asking how this will happen if you are not keeping the old laws ?



Koran
64:14. O you who believe! Be you helpers (in the Cause) of Allâh as said Eisa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), to Al¬Hawârîûn (the disciples): "Who are my helpers (in the Cause) of Allâh?" Al¬Hawârîeen (the disciples) said: "We are Allâh's helpers" (i.e. we will strive in His Cause!). Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.

7:169. Then after them succeeded an (evil) generation, which inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the goods of this low life (evil pleasures of this world) saying (as an excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven to us." And if (again) the offer of the like (evil pleasures of this world) came their way, they would (again) seize them (would commit those sins). Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they would not say about Allâh anything but the truth? And they have studied what is in it (the Book). And the home of the Hereafter is better for those who are Al-Muttaqûn Do not you then understand?
Again, you can study the Bible and find Gods words in it, but people have tampered with it allot in translation and by religious setcs.

You need to figure out for yourself if the Bible is the truth or not because the stakes are high. But like I keep saying, don't dismiss the Bible as wishful thinking just because of the track record of the hypocrites who claim to obey it.

Here's the thing: false religion may teach the golden rule, but only true religion practices it. Look around and judge for yourself who is who.

Do yourself a favor and at least take a look at what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and judge for yourself if they are following the Bible and have true religion.

www.watchtower.org

Chris
Again you insist on a religion after Abraham's covenant which has already been the foundation of all 3 one god religions out there.

Islam has been the only religion to administer all 3 faiths and protect them, as long as they do not do what you do, which is propagate your beliefs on others, there is no compulsion in religion, people turn to God to be thankfull after reconizing the blessings they have or they do it as there last resort like many because they did sin upon sin when they realize they wronged there souls.

The golden Rule are the commandments in the Torah. Jesus ministered this, Mohammed Ministered this as well and was willing to risk his life because polytheists stood against him and other faiths when he took Mecca.

I can tell you that Jihad is in the Bible first but crusades and there faith has nothing to do with it but religious fanaticism, if it did they would have remembered that JEsus was upset at the scribes who practiced literacy instead of worship to the Abraham and Mosaic Laws. something muslims do.

The golden Rule are the commandments in the Torah.,
Nope, wrong: http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html

And religious fanatacism will never go away as long as people are willing to use religion as a means to an end.

There are many people who use the bible to propagate there beliefs from it, and they only use parts that agree with there agendas
Do you see that you have just described yourself? :confused:

Nearly every portion of the Bible you have quoted has been either out of context, misapplied or both. You open yourself up to your own accusation!

I recently came across a very wise view of how to properly understand the Bible: "The true meaning of any [Bible] text can be determined only when it is harmonized with the rest of the Bible and in keeping with their contexts. That way, the interpretation is God's, not man's." If you do this honestly, every false teaching is exposed, and every single one of your claims collapses.

God provides the means to understand his word.

Chris

Your really clever with rhetoric here, how low will you go to get others to convert is going to be something you really need to address sooner or later.

You're the one who wants to convert people into a religion when you yourself knows that many christians put there faith in the wrong things, for the fact that no one knows who wrote some of the gospels, and that its evident that other gospels aside the ones of Jesus have been snapped into the bible, its called corruption, Jesus spoke out against it and reminded everyone about the commandments.

Also, How can it be a golden rule when in the hands of religious fanatics?

Some facts about the bible and the religions that built faith on the doubts.


There are a total of 66 books contained in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There was a total of 40 different authors who wrote these books over a 1500 year period from different parts of the world in different languages and last many didn't ever meet the other authors."

The philosophic "center" of the New Testament is the first four books (Matthew, Mark, Luke,and John), which are known as the "Gospels". The rest of the New Testament is, for all practical purposes, an elaboration on these four books. Many Christians believe that these four Gospels were written by the direct disciples of Jesus, but, as you will see, this is hardly the case. So even the beloved Gospels are not free from the nagging doubt of dubious authorship. Christians cite the similarity of the Gospels as "proof" of their authenticity. But the similarities between these four books is due to the existence of a alleged collection of the sayings of Jesus called "Q". The compiler of Q is unknown. Christians place enormous faith that this unknown person(s) did not 1) fabricate his own sayings to suit his own agenda, and 2) use saying from questionable sources.

Also, as I noted earlier, there were over 50 different Gospels in circulation at the time the New Testament was compiled. Since the persons choosing the canon used only books that were, more or less, harmonious, it is reasonable to conclude that the results would be... harmonious books!

For example, one book that did not make it into the New Testament was the "Gospel of Peter", because the book does not consider the Crucifixion as an act of atonement. Similarly, the "Acts of John" was not included because of its subversion of traditional Christian teachings (such as, denying the reality of Jesus's physical body). It may be argued that these (and many other books) were not included because of "questionable authorship", but the authorship of these books is no less questionable than other books that have been included.

---MORE DETAILS?
Around a hundred years after the Gospel was written, ie. towards the end of the second century, a famous Christian writer and martyr called Irenaeus (about 130-200 C.E.) identified the author of this Gospel as a man named John, called a disciple of the Lord and the one who leaned on Jesus at the Last Supper ie. the disciple whom Jesus loved. "Lastly John, the Lord's disciple, who also reclined on his breast, himself produced the Gospel when he was staying in Ephesus in Asia".

Irenaus is writing at a time when this Gospel is in great danger of being rejected as a legitimate or canonical Gospel. Some are saying it comes from a heretical group called the Gnostics who emphasised knowledge (gnosis) and the mind, and downplayed the value of the physical and human experience. To rescue this gospel it was important to attribute it to an eyewitness, preferably one of the disciples - even better if it was one of the inner circle of Apostles - Peter, James and John. The Authorship of the bible (http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm)

Your really clever with rhetoric here, how low will you go to get others to convert is going to be something you really need to address sooner or later.
The truth is the truth. It's neither clever nor rhetorical, and requires no apologies. My goal is not to convert anyone, but to refute falsehoods and encourage people to look at the scriptures with an open mind and without bias or prejudice, and reason on them. When that happens, the Bible will make its own converts.


Some facts about the bible and the religions that built faith on the doubts.
As I suspected, you are just looking up other's criticisms and picking the sources that tell you what you want to hear. How do you know any of this is "fact"? Would you want others to judge the Quran by whatever they can find on the web?

Come on now, you have yet to make a coherent argument based on the what the scriptures themselves actually say. Have you looked into any of this for yourself?

Chris

The truth is the truth. It's neither clever nor rhetorical, and requires no apologies. My goal is not to convert anyone, but to refute falsehoods and encourage people to look at the scriptures with an open mind and without bias or prejudice, and reason on them. When that happens, the Bible will make its own converts.


As I suspected, you are just looking up other's criticisms and picking the sources that tell you what you want to hear. How do you know any of this is "fact"? Would you want others to judge the Quran by whatever they can find on the web?

Come on now, you have yet to make a coherent argument based on the what the scriptures themselves actually say. Have you looked into any of this for yourself?

Chris

Your problem is the Qu'ran, you simply can not believe it's the same God of Abraham when God is one God.

Its called racism, you want to judge a book by its cover fine, and the people fine, better get to know your friends because there is more under there skin then just what seems to meeet the eye, and racism does not mean you hate, you may also love certain people over others.

Jesus spoke against this too when the scribes claimed religion with birth rites.

Your problem is the Qu'ran, you simply can not believe its the same God of Abraham when God is one God.

Its called racism, you want to judge a book by its cover fine, and the people fine, better get to know your friends because there is more under there skin then just what seems to meeet the eye, and racism does not mean you hate, you may also love certain people over others.

Jesus spoke against this too when the scribes claimed religion with birth rites.
Sigh. Still no discussion about what the scriptures actually say...

My problem is not the Quran. My problem is that you are making a lot of unsubstantiated claims and keep switching the subject. I want to talk about what is in God's word and you want to accuse me of hate and racism, and then throw in, for no apparent reason, an issue about birth rights!

What does any of that have to do with the vailidity of the Bible??

The truth in the Bible stands on its own, no matter what anyone--including me, you, the ancient Jews, the Catholic Church or all of Islam--says.

Chris

Chris,

There are links you can read that prove the Bible has been so tampered with in ways that it will take one years before they understand that it all started with ABRAHAM and Moses. and I am saying that in this story tale if you want to call it, its all about Abraham.

Moses who was after Abraham had the Torah. and it starts with Genesis, why do you still confuse Abraham to be after Moses, its all about the Qiblaa (Kabaa) and Abraham's religion.

Why did you thing the jews pray facing the wall in jerusalem, the Dome of the rock is a mosque, its where abraham almost sacrificed his first son Ishmail..

You said earlier that you did not want anything to do with politics in the middle east, well they say its people like you that create and fallow phony religions that start the problems of misguiding others into false Gods.
People who have a problem with Abraham's religion are breaking away from the one universal God who created all worlds. it's the greatest sin..

Golden Rule in this story, One God is our God, the same God Jesus prayed to in the Garden and on his face and the same God Mohammed also spoke about.

Here is a link to a good muslim christian debate about the bible.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=468&PN=1&TPN=1
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=591&PN=1
Some bible facts
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm
The Christian views about Islam and the Qur'an has no grounds of evidence they are pure rhetoric and conjecture. its all pure politics to keep business going as usual.

So you better be sure about what religion you pick if that is what you want to do, either wise do not at all and or just fallow the rules (commandments by yourself is all I am saying, why all this trouble in the world is happening because some people think God belongs to them, if there is God then we Belong to him and to God we all return.

There are links you can read that prove the Bible has been so tampered with
Whatever. Would you like some links that "prove" Elvis is alive, the earth is flat or that Martians run the world's governments? :rolleyes:

I get my views by looking for myself, studying and making reasoned decisions. I don't make judgments on the hearsay of others, especially those who are openly biased or opposed.


why do you still confuse Abraham to be after Moses
Um, I don't even know what you're talking about here. I've never even mentioned Moses and Abraham! From your comments, I can tell you don't have the slightest idea what I believe or what my stand is on these matters. You just assume, and so far you have consistently assumed wrong.


grounds of evidence
How you can even talk about evidence? You haven't provided any other than your opinion and those of some web sites. What do the scriptures say? If you're judging the scriptures, that's the only real basis for judgment.

Chris

:)

You missed it 4 times.

What did you learn about Abraham?
The middle east and anthropology, where evidence that man dates back to areas like Iraq and Iran?

You threw all the evidence away before by saying its demonic to look into the middle east and politics, you prefer to fallow your own fancies, you broke the very first and most important rule that Abraham, Moses , Jesus and Mohammed spoke of, NEVER TAKE ANOTHER GOD BUT GOD AS THE DISPOSER OF YOUR AFFAIRS.

I did so provide Evidence, and proved it all to you against your own false beliefs which do not stand for the one same God of all mankind. your ideologies of God do not agree with Abraham do they?

Learn about abraham before trying to fallow parts of what Abraham started which is the One God religion for all humanity. Abraham is what all 3 faiths are based on, all 3, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. you proved you have no say about the bible altogether, you obviously never read it correctly to understand why it was written for mankind. if anyone defers from this they have no part of the Torah, Gospels or the Qur'an, they simply fallow Paul's and or other religions with CONJECTURE because Abraham was called the friend of God and was thee example.

Abraham set up a Qibla so all human kind can remember and worship one true God, no difference what you look like , if your rich or poor, your all equal. God creates as he wishes and no one has say over Gods creation.

So you left out a important part of the book to play by your own rules, you even said its demonic to think in those areas, well you're the only demonic one here who denies one true God and accuses others of been up to something while you want to convert them. God guides who he wills, do you understand that yet or what? God does not guide evil people, should he guide people who never recognized there faults and do mischief in the world there would never be justice and who God does not Guide, No one can, so embrace your free choice to do good or evil here because in the next life you, me and all living creators will be in the mercy of God and its been said that you will sacrifice everything you have and not all the treasures of the earth will get your ticket into heaven if you're a wicked soul.

So you can not guide anyone and either can I, we should be practicing truth and Abraham is the friend of God, so if you want to understand at least hwat I am saying, try starting with why Abraham almost sacrificed his first son Ishmael, read up for yourself, and do not say it was Isaac since Isaac was his second son.

Although 'tetragrammaton' is a Greek word, it refers to one of the names or titles of God in the Hebrew Scriptures, which was written 'yod hey vav (or waw) hey,' from which are derived its Anglicised versions, Jehovah or Yahweh.

Since the name of God has been ineffable to those of Hebrew descent from time immemorial, its correct pronunciation is a matter for speculation.

Jews reading the scriptures and pointing to YHVW (or YHWH), use a circumlocution, such as 'ha-shem,' meaning 'The Name,' by which Jews understand that it means God.

As to which God I worship, I worship Elohim, or God the Father.

Jehovah I believe to be the premortal Jesus who acted in the name, authority, and place of the Father as his mediator between makind and himself.

Although 'tetragrammaton' is a Greek word, it refers to one of the names or titles of God in the Hebrew Scriptures, which was written 'yod hey vav (or waw) hey,' from which are derived its Anglicised versions, Jehovah or Yahweh.

Since the name of God has been ineffable to those of Hebrew descent from time immemorial, its correct pronounciation is a matter for speculation.

Jews reading the scriptures and pointing to YHVW (or YHWH), use a circumlocution, such as 'ha-shem,' meaning 'The Name,' by which Jews understand that it means God.

As to which God I worship, I worship Elohim, or God the Father.

Jehovah I believe to be the premortal Jesus who acted in the name, authority, and place of the Father as his mediator between makind and himself.

Again, you blasphemy

You better learn a single semitic language to understand the phrasing and criteria of the texts,

Jehovah is a Christian version of the Hebrew texts,NOT THE HEBREW MEANING OF ELOHIM AND WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS GOD IN THE TORAH.

Do you really want to go over this a hundred times because your convinced Jehovah is the name of God and the name means everything to you, why not ALLAH then since ALLAH is the same God Jesus referred to, I mean who did Jesus pray to when he fell on his face in the garden to ask for the removal of death, certainly it was not Jesus talking on the cross when you heard the gossip that god forsaking him?

You can believe what you want if your going to mix fiction up in all this.
But if you want to truth, go back to Abraham, the father of all 3 faiths, and ask yourself when Jesus referred to him as the father of the children of Israel rather then Jacob aka Israel, especially after Israel broke there covenant with new texts that claimed the Talmud is holier then God and that Judaism is thee religion for the children of Jacob (aka Israel)

G4-450,

You seem to have a lot of anger. Anger and extreme fundamentalism are a nasty mix.

Please, Sir,

With the greatest deference to your scholarship and intelligence, may I suggest to you that you have me mistaken for another person?

This is the first time that I have posted to this thread, so whoever it is that you bave in mind to uinsult, you are wasting your bitterness, apparent hatred, and foolishness on me.

Check my name. It is MORGANITE, and, as far as I know, I am the only Morganite on this board.

Naturally, I will accept your apology, if you can raise yourself to the level of a gentleman and admit that you are wrong and have attacked someone who has not attacked you, and for a specious reason.

The very idea!

I have not read your reply, but I take it that you objected to something I wrote concerning the tetragrammaton.

You are free to make your objection but in a civilised and scholarly way, and not as if you were some raging madman.

I have never dealt with you before, but I ask you, in all sincerity, to treat me with respect, if for no other reasoin than that I am a person of age and wisdom.

If you cannot disagree with someone, especially someone you do not know, without making a personal attack, then you are mentally and spiritually unfitted to engage in any kind of serious debate.

Yours faithfully,

MORGANITE




I will now turn my attention to the details of your post.

===================

You better learn a single semitic language to understand the phrasing and criteria of the texts,

Will Classical Hebrew satisfy you?

Jehovah is a Christian version of the Hebrew texts,NOT THE HEBREW MEANING OF ELOHIM AND WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS GOD IN THE TORAH.

Please re-read what I wrote, and to which you have taken extraordinary objection. Nowhere have I said that Jehovah is a translation of Elohim.

Elohim is a Hebrew word translated as 'God' in English. The tetragrammaton is a Greek work meaning FOUR LETTERS because the name translated as Jehovah is derived from four Hebrew letters, "yod, hey, vav (or waw) hey," that are Anglicised as Jehovah.

In different places in the Hebrew Scriptuires, God is referred to as Elohim and Jehovah.

It is my belief that Elohim is God the Father, and Jehovah is the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. You may not agree, but I have never been convinced of anything by a mere bad-tempered rant, and you offer no argument in support of your position against mine, only childish insults.


Do you really want to go over this a hundred times

I have only written of it once before, and this reply makes twice. I would not have written this had it not been for your angry response.

because your convinced Jehovah is the name of God and the name means everything to you,

As I wrote, I believe that the name Jehovah, or yahweh, is the name of the pre-mortal Jesus.

why not ALLAH then since ALLAH is the same God Jesus referred to,

Allah is derived from the same root as El, the Hebrew name for God, and from which EL-ohim is derived. It is not a problem for me what you call God as long as you get it right in any language..


I mean who did Jesus pray to when he fell on his face in the garden to ask for the removal of death, certainly it was not Jesus talking on the cross when you heard the gossip that god forsaking him?

Gossip? The words, in Aramaic, the natural tongue of Judean Jews at the time, ar the ippissima verba of Jesus.

You can believe what you want if your going to mix fiction up in all this.

You say it is fiction, and you are welcome to your opinion. Can you be man enough to tell me that I am welcome to mine?


But if you want to truth, go back to Abraham, the father of all 3 faiths, and ask yourself when Jesus referred to him as the father of the children of Israel rather then Jacob aka Israel, especially after Israel broke there covenant with new texts that claimed the Talmud is holier then God and that Judaism is thee religion for the children of Jacob (aka Israel)

I did not address these points in my post on the tetragrammaton, and I find your comments on so garbled that I am unsure of what you mean.

I trust that this makes everything clear for you.

If you desire further conversations on this matter, and you are willing to put down your six-shooters and speak with of it with the respect and scholarship that any discussion of the name of God deserves, then I am willing to explain myslef again.

However I will not engage in your kind of hate filled rhetoric, because to do so over the name of God is itself a great blasphemy.

Sincereley,

MORGANITE

However I will not engage in your kind of hate filled rhetoric, because to do so over the name of God is itself a great blasphemy.

Sincereley,

MORGANITE
Please give it up guy, fake fake fake.

Jehovah witnesses are nothing but a fake cult of satanic worshipers or simply pagan, you have proved to attack others here simply with reversed prejuduces to claim they are angry and un happy like you are. if you had any truth to your cult you would present it rather then using tactics, so where is the proof?

Prove it to the world if Jehovah's witnesses have anything to do with ABRAHAM and how and maybe we can talk?

Prove it to the world if Jehovah's witnesses have anything to do with ABRAHAM and how and maybe we can talk?
Morganite, this guy thinks you're me. I went round and round with him and he never would agree on any point. Take my advice: give up now or you will waste a great deal of time. He is not reasonable--as you can probably tell.

Chris

Morganite, this guy thinks you're me. I went round and round with him and he never would agree on any point. Take my advice: give up now or you will waste a great deal of time. He is not reasonable--as you can probably tell.

Chris

Chris or Morgan Stanley I do not care if your one person or 1 million Jehovah witnesses, I will not compromise with hypocrites who think they are right and everyone else has to agree with them like your doing around here.

So get yourselves a real religion starting with Abraham, where it all began and then come back with a clue, other wise your just another pagan cult looking for a leek in the scriptures to adapt a fake theory to justify your cause.

No one is angry and yes no one wants to mess with the one true God but you, so leave it like this and take it up with God not me.
:) there is no reasoning with people who invent religions and cults.

See what I mean?

Chris

hebrew was never a spoken living language until 1948

That is incorrect.

I do not know the source of your information, but it has misled you.

Classical (Biblical) Hebrew is among the Indo-Semitic language group and is extremely ancient.

The State of Israel did not come into existence until 1948, but the Hebrew tongue - Modern Hebrew - was maintained in Jewish communities worldwide, in both Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities.

Modern Hebrew is based directly on Ancient (Biblical) Hebrew with some differences in pronounciation.

they also did not use vowels

Of course they used vowels. They did not write them, but they used them. It is impossible to speak any language without using vowel sounds.

Certain of the Hebrew letters are known as vowel letters because when proounced, the vowel sounds they carried are enunciated. Check out, ayin, aleph, vav (or waw) which are used in this way, even down to the present time

MORGANITE

I can see that there is an empty trolley in the room. However, it gives me something to do while I am waiting for the paint to dry.

Thank you for the heads up.

;)

Morganite

I do not know the source of your information, but it has misled you.
You just had to kick over the beehive... [running for cover now] :D

Chris

It is Yahweh.
He has another name, God The Father, and another, Jesus Chrsit - God the son,
And another, Holy Spirit - all are together One Almighty God.
Thanks for asking.
Fred (arcura)

Some say that the high god's name is yahweh, or yehowah, and other say that it is elohim, which is the frist name of God to appear in the Bible (Gen. 1.1)

As I have said before, I believe that elohim and yahveh are different, one being the Son of the Father.

In all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His father in power and authority.

This is true of Jesus Christ in His preexistent, pre-emortal, in which He was known as Jehovah, and also during His embodiment in the flesh, and during His ministry as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state.

To the Jews He said: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30; see also 17:11, 22).

Yet He declared "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); and further, "I am come in my Father's name" (John 5:43; see also 10:25).

Jesus was and is both Jehovah and Messiah, God the Son, the Creator and Savior of the world, working at all times in complete harmony and oneness with Elohim, God the Father, in whose likeness man was created.

The Father called him "My beloved Son," and Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I."

He is also called the "Only begotten in the flesh," and the "Firstborn."

These passages, and many others, show the subordination of Jesus to God the Father, or Elohim. In the garden on resurrection morning, Jesus told Mary thathe had "not yet ascended to [his] Father in heaven" telling her to inform the brethren that he was going to go to "[His] Father and their Father, and to [His] God, and their God."

That is why I say that the name of God the Father is Elohim. In addition, he has other styles or titles that appear in the scriptures. That is why I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and is not himself God the Father.

I thought to explain my posiiton for those who believe the fourth century (and later) creeds that determine that The Father and Son and Holy Ghost are only one person.

If Jesus, the resurrected Jesus Christ, had not yet gone up to His Father, but was soon to do so, he could not by any stretch of the imagination be one and the same person. He could not be the Father and the Son who had not met each other since the Crucifixion, or else Jesus would not need to go anywhere to see his Father.

In spite of the statement of Jesus that "I and my Father are one," he could not have had reference to personal, material unity (which discussion was the bane of the early Church and led to bloodshed!), but could only have meant that they had a unified purpose.

Said Jesus to his Father, "Not my will, but thy will de done." This conflict of individual and directionally oppsed wills was resolved by Jesus being subordinate and obedient to his Father's will, suppressing his own desires.

I hope that I have made my position clear without stepping on anyone's toes, or irritating them.

That is my position. Here I stand. I can do no other.

MORGANITE

Thanks for you explanation.
In Jesus statement that He and the Father are one tells me that they are together.
Also please note that Elohim is a plural word.
I believe that when Scripture speaks of the Spirit of God and Jesus as the Word of God through whom all was created along with the Father it testifies to the reality of the Holy Trinity of the One True God Almighty.
It is not as difficult to grasp as some may think
After all each of us is a trinity of body, mind, and spirit.
Take away any one of those and we are incomplete.
Each member works together with the others.
In my case my body is Fred, my mind is Fred, and my Spirit is Fred all together we are the complete Fred.
The same for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God and all together is one God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)

"did you know that people used to actually believe that stars where gods floating around in space, like Zeus, diana or isis was the moon etc?"

This is absolutely not so. They associated the names of the planets and constellations with their gods, they didn't think the planets were the gods.
Do some research, please!

Sin was associated with the moon.
Aphrodite with Venus.
Some gods were associated with the constellations hence the statues of gods with bull's heads, lion's heads, the sphinx, etc.

Jehovah Is A Prefix To About Maybe A Half Dozen Other Names, Such As Jehovah-jireh, Jehovah-tsid Kennu, Jehovah-shalom, Etc. If One Takes All These Names In To Account, God Is Telling You By His Names That He Is Everything You Need At Any Time You Need Him.

"did you know that people used to actually believe that stars where gods floating around in space, like Zeus, diana or isis was the moon etc?"

This is absolutely not so. They associated the names of the planets and constellations with their gods, they didn't think the planets were the gods.
Do some research, please!

Sin was associated with the moon.
Aphrodite with Venus.
Some gods were associated with the constellations hence the statues of gods with bull's heads, lion's heads, the sphinx, etc.


Yeah I did allot of research

Isis- moon -egyption Goddes after the moon
Zues- God of Jupitor, Roman God
India also has many Gods in sync with the constallations.

Oldest evidence is that during Abrahamic times, the chaldians worhiped false gods which correspond in sync with .the constallations, they used the solar system to guide them and believed these Gods actually existed and spoke like humans, especially the greeks after these times who mastered mtyhs and thoerys, aka ideas with out facts.

So lets get on with the facts, only a ignorant person who is addicted to the idea of powers to munipulate his sinfull world lacks the rightiousness to pray to the one true God humbly to open doors in this world, the god Abraham met who told him gave all mankind the faculty of seen, hearing and understanding. but of course some people do not believe there is only one god because they are racist.

The fact is many polythiests who are ignorant to believe in all these Gods ( and they indeed 100 % correspond to astrology) still use the systems today for all kinds of sinfull addictions, like spells to charms and other cowrdley faithless reasons they can not ever connect to the one true universal God of all creation who cntrols all the constalltions.

And the reasons they can never connect with them is because God only accepts the prayers of rightious people, not people who seek to use prayers as rituels, sacrifices and other people or things to fool the universal laws which God alone controls, but tell these people this and they aill argue with you because they do not want to believe it, so what do you do, let them be.

So you should read the Torah aka old testament for yourself since God allmighty says the first most sinfull commandment is to not take false Gods for wortship, he is the one God of all. and jesus also said to fallow every one commandment if you want to enter paradise, he called himself the new law because jews diverted the children of israel from the path.

so you should read the Torah aka old testament

Dear G,

The Torah is not "The Old Testament." The Old Testament is the Tanak, comprising Torah, Nabiim, and Haggorah, hence TNK or Tanak.

Torah means 'teaching,' (with the understanding that what is being taught is the Law of God, although it contains much more than legal matters),and refers to the Mosaic books only.

I am sure that is what you meant to say.

:)

MORGANITE

Hello again.

It is never as good idea to call people ignorant, even when you think they are.[U]

It makes you look like a cross patch, and I am sure you are not.


MORGANITE

:)

Dear G,

The Torah is not "The Old Testament." The Old Testament is the Tanak, comprising Torah, Nabiim, and Haggorah, hence TNK or Tanak.

Torah means 'teaching,' (with the understanding that what is being taught is the Law of God, although it contains much more than legal matters),and refers to the Mosaic books only.

I am sure that is what you meant to say.

:)

MORGANITE
Of course that is why I said it, most people in the west (christians ) do NOT know this either.

Again, Abraham and the Chaldians, who spoke, wrote and read Chaldian (not hebrew) worhiped many Gods, all syncronized with the constallations.

Abraham rejected this after many trials and errors which led him to the evidance that these where false Gods and not worthy of worship for there is one true God.

Its very simple. Abraham founded religion of One God, all man kind and the bible is full of stories that people keep bending this idea and prophets have to come to guide them, Abraham is the father of faith of all prophets who came after him to guide everyone back to the one true God.

So the fanatical megalomaniac polythiests who insist that a masiah is coming have missd it already, it was Jesus, even the koran called him christ, and the koran states that even if his fallowers where to believe jesus was the son as adam who also had no mother as well as a mortal father, he still had a job to do like all apostals, which was to guide people back to God.

This is clearly proving that polythiests fanstasized jesus like superman and diverted the simple truth which he came to bring to the jews who where the lost children of israel.


So again, back to the topic, its not important what name you think god has unles syou understand that god is not like a man or anything he creates.

So all the other so called man made Gods whether they are ideas deriving from the solar system ot wooden objest, or even a son still are not worthy of worship as jesus said the one true God in the heavens is, worship God the creator not his creations in vain.

Peace

[QUOTE=chrisl You wrote to G-Man:

You obviously respect the Quran and accept what it says as the truth. If the Bible were corrupt at the time the Quran was written, would the Quran call it "truth" and recommend it be used for "guidance"?

Chris[/QUOTE]

Your argument only works if the Koran is accurate, as does Muslim acceptance of it as a perfect book. If it is not it casts doubt on everything it supports. The Bible has been held up to critical enquiry for centuries. The Koran has never been held to the same standards.

The questions the Koran must answer are:

1. How did the Koran come to us. —That is the compilation and the transmission of the Koran.

2. When was it written, and who wrote it?

3. What are the sources of the Koran? Where were the stories, legends, and principles that abound in the Koran acquired?

4. What is the Koran? Since there never was a textus receptus ne varietur of the Koran, we need to decide its authenticity.


5. Where is the original Koran?

According toMuslims, the Koran was revealed to Muhammad, usually by an angel, over a period of years until his death in 632 C.E. It is not clear how much of the Koran had been written down by the time of Muhammad’s death, but there was no single manuscript in which the Prophet himself had collected all the revelations. There are traditions which describe how the Prophet dictated this or that portion of the Koran to his secretaries.

According to one tradition, during Abu Bakr’s brief caliphate (632-634), ‘Umar, who himself was to succeed to the caliphate in 634, became worried at the fact that so many Muslims who had known the Koran by heart were killed during the Battle of Yamama, in Central Arabia. There was a real danger that parts of the Koran would be irretrievably lost unless a collection of the Koran was made before more of those who knew this or that part of the Koran by heart were killed.

Abu Bakr eventually gave his consent to such a project, and asked Zayd ibn Thabit, the former secretary of the Prophet, to undertake this daunting task. So Zayd proceeded to collect the Koran "from pieces of papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards, as well as from the hearts of men." Zayd then copied out what he had collected on sheets or leaves (Arabic, suhuf).

Once complete, the Koran was handed over to Abu Bakr, and on his death passed to ‘Umar, and upon his death passed to ‘Umar’s daughter, Hafsa.

There are however different versions of this tradition; in some it is suggested that it was Abu Bakr who first had the idea to make the collection; in other versions the credit is given to Ali, the fourth caliph and the founder of the Shias; other versions still completely exclude Abu Bakr.

Then, it is argued that such a difficult task could not have been accomplished in just two years. Again, it is unlikely that those who died in the Battle of Yamama, being new converts, knew any of the Koran by heart. Even so, the Koran under Abu Bakr once made was not treated as an official codex, but as the private property of Hafsa.

The next step was under ‘Uthman (644-656). One of ‘Uthman’s generals asked the caliph to make such a collection because serious disputes had broken out among his troops from different provinces in regard to the correct readings of the Koran.

‘Uthman chose Zayd ibn Thabit to prepare the official text. Zayd, with the help of three members of noble Meccan families, revised the Koran comparing his version with the "leaves" in the possession of Hafsa, ‘Umar’s daughter; and as instructed, in case of difficulty as to the reading, Zayd followed the dialect of the Quraysh, the Prophet’s tribe.

The new versions, were sent to Kufa, Basra, Damascus, and perhaps Mecca, and one was, of course, kept in Medina. All other versions were ordered to be destroyed.

But, the Arabic found in the Koran is not a dialect. The number of people working on the commission with Zayd varies, and in included are the names of persons who were enemies of ‘Uthman, and someone known to have died before these events!

Modern scholars accept the establishment of the text of the Koran was under ‘Uthman between 650 and 656. They accept the traditional account of the ‘Uthmanic collection, without giving a single reason for accepting this second tradition as opposed to the first under Abu Bakr. There is a massive gap in their arguments, or rather they offer no arguments at all.

We can apply the same arguments to dismiss the ‘Uthmanic story as were used to dismiss the Abu Bakr story. We can argue that the ‘Uthmanic story was invented by the enemies of Abu Bakr and the friends of ‘Uthman; political polemics can equally be said to have played their part in the fabrication of this later story.

It also leaves unanswered so many awkward questions. What were these "leaves" in the possession of Hafsa? And if the Abu Bakr version is pure forgery where did Hafsa get hold of them? Then what are those versions that seemed to be floating around in the provinces? When were these alternative texts compiled, and by whom? Can we really pick, at our own will, from amongst the variants, from the contradictory traditions?

There are no compelling reasons for accepting the ‘Uthmanic story and not the Abu Bakr one; after all they are all gleaned from the same sources, which are all exceedingly late, tendentious in the extreme, and all were later fabrications.

When listening to these accounts, some very common- sensical objections arise which no one seems to have dared to ask. First, all these stories place an enormous burden on the memories of the early Muslims. Indeed, scholars are compelled to exaggerate the putatively prodigious memories of the Arabs. Muhammad could not read or write according to some traditions, and therefore everything depends on him having perfectly memorized what God revealed to him through His Angels.

Some stories in the Koran are enormously long; the story of Joseph takes up a whole chapter of 111 verses. Are we really to believe that Muhammad remembered it exactly as it was revealed?

Similarly the Companions of the Prophet are said to have memorized many of his utterances. Could their memories never have failed? Oral traditions have a tendency to change over time, and they cannot be relied upon to construct a reliable, scientific history. Second, we seem to assume that the Companions of the Prophet heard and understood him perfectly.

Almost without exceptions Muslims consider that the Quran we now possess goes back in its text and in the number and order of the chapters to the work of the commission that ‘Uthman appointed. Muslim orthodoxy holds further that ‘Uthman’s Quran contains all of the revelation delivered to the community faithfully preserved without change or variation of any kind and that the acceptance of the ‘Uthmanic Quran was all but universal from the day of its distribution.

The orthodox position is motivated by dogmatic factor, but it cannot be supported by the historical evidence.

While modern Muslims may be committed to an impossibly conservative position, Muslim scholars of the early years of Islam were far more flexible, realizing that parts of the Koran were lost, perverted, and that there were many thousand variants which made it impossible to talk of the Koran.

For example, As-Suyuti (died 1505), one of the most famous and revered of the commentators of the Koran, quotes Ibn ‘Umar al Khattab as saying:

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Quran, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Quran has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available’"
(As-Suyuti, Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha, the favorite wife of the Prophet, says, also according to a tradition recounted by as-Suynti, "During the time of the Prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When ‘Uthman edited the copies of the Quran, only the current (verses) were recorded" (Ibid, age. 73).

Since there was no single document collecting all the revelations, after Muhammad’s death in 632 C.E. many of his followers tried to gather all the known revelations and write them down in codex form.

Soon we had the codices of several scholars such as Ibn Masud, Uba ibn Ka’b, ‘Ali, Abu Bakr, al-Aswad, and others (Jeffery, chapter 6, has listed fifteen primary codices, and a large number of secondary ones). As Islam spread, we eventually had what became known as the metropolitan codices in the centers of Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Kufa, and Basra.

'Uthman tried to bring order to this chaotic situation by canonizing the Medinan Codex, copies of which were sent to all the metropolitan centers, with orders to destroy all the other codices.

‘Uthman’s codex was supposed to standardize the consonantal text, yet we find many of the variant traditions of this consonantal text survived well into the fourth Islamic century. The problem was aggravated by the fact that the consonantal text was unpointed, that is to say, the dots that distinguish, for example, a "b" from a "t" or a "th" were missing.

Several other letters (f and q; j, h, and kh; s and d; r and z; s and sh; d and dh, t and z) were indistinguishable. In other words, the Koran was written in a scripta defectiva. As a result, a great many variant readings were possible according to the way the text was pointed (had the dots added).

The point is that if you judge the standard of one book of scripture by the standard of a second book of scripture and the second book is shwow not to be reliable, it cannot be used to support the truth of the first book of scripture.



MORGANITE



:)

THE COUP DE GRAS... THANK YOU!

The point is that if you judge the standard of one book of scripture by the standard of a second book of scripture and the second book is shown not to be reliable, it cannot be used to support the truth of the first book of scripture.

The free masons believe in the one supreme being, in arabic the name ELI or ALLAH, fits the translation., and not Ala the moon God which the enemies of Abraham try to mix Islam with.
is clear to state all generations after him who fallow his covenant are basically Muslims, maybe not the same way we see them today but at-least by VERB... which means doing Gods will, and even the Koran states that Christians, Jews and Magis (free masons) wilkl not suffer at the least in this life as long as they believe in God's will and do rightious deeds.


The Freemason's god is revealed in their rites as JAH-BUL-ON ...



MORGANITE


:)

Your argument only works if the Koran is accurate, as does Muslim acceptance of it as a perfect book. If it is not it casts doubt on everything it supports.
I hope no one gets the impression I view the Quran as having the same authority as the Bible! I do not. I hold that the Bible is God's only inspired word. But I do respect someone's right to hold their own beliefs and opinions in this matter.

I was only attempting (vainly) to reason with him based on what he believed. I hoped that if he truly respected the Quran he would respect what it said about the Bible. But events obviously proved otherwise...

I still cannot understand his position--I can find no consistency in it--but I'm not interested in arguing so I gave up.

Chris

Chris:

There is something odd about his understanding and responses. He cuts and pastes at will and fights unseen enemies like don Quixote tilting at windmills, not undertanding what he does but serious in his purposes. He is beyond reach.





MORGANITE


:cool:

Speaking for yourself again, you're a clear hypocrite for always stirring of the subject instead of facing it.

AS well as anti semitic as usual.

I hope no one gets the impression I view the Quran as having the same authority as the Bible! I do not. I hold that the Bible is God's only inspired word. But I do respect someone's right to hold their own beliefs and opinions in this matter.

I was only attempting (vainly) to reason with him based on what he believed. I hoped that if he truly respected the Quran he would respect what it said about the Bible. But events obviously proved otherwise...

I still cannot understand his position--I can find no consistency in it--but I'm not interested in arguing so I gave up.

Chris

Chris

The Koran states the laws of the Torah (10 commandments) are to be obeyed clearly, and also further more that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel (judah) with 12 helpers to replace the children of Israel from what we know as capitol take over of the rest of its brother tribes and committing genocide to all the prior Prophets which he mentioned in the Bible and who they where sent to with the same message, only Jesus was there Messiah.

Anyone who runs with a sentence claiming that the koran states the bible is perfect has to look at all the facts with man made laws and there desires to of chosen some of the books out of over 60+ thousand other scriptures that where part of the bible, and destroyed as well.

The enemies of God are people who actually believe they are above the law, this is where I stand up for the koran, it stands for unity of mankind, against oppressors and tyrants.

Who ever uses the word terror is actually the sinner, terror is what God ordered in the torah as well against materialistic tyrants.

This is where I stand, no one should use force against another in a un authorized way for there own personal gain.

Speaking for yourself again, your a clear hypocrite for always stirring of the subject instead of facing it.

AS well as anti semitic as usual.


You are apostate. You do not offer the respect to others that the Koran insists you do.

Read this, and learn how it applies to you:


SANAA, YEMEN - When Judge Hamoud al-Hitar announced that he and four other Islamic scholars would challenge Yemen's Al Qaeda prisoners to a theological contest, Western antiterrorism experts warned that this high-stakes gamble would end in disaster.

Nervous as he faced five captured, yet defiant, Al Qaeda members in a Sanaa prison, Judge Hitar was inclined to agree. But banishing his doubts, the youthful cleric threw down the gauntlet, in the hope of bringing peace to his troubled homeland.

"If you can convince us that your ideas are justified by the Koran, then we will join you in your struggle," Hitar told the militants. "But if we succeed in convincing you of our ideas, then you must agree to renounce violence."

The prisoners eagerly agreed.

Now, two years later, not only have those prisoners been released, but a relative peace reigns in Yemen. And the same Western experts who doubted this experiment are courting Hitar, eager to hear how his "theological dialogues" with captured Islamic militants have helped pacify this wild and mountainous country, previously seen by the US as a failed state, like Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Since December 2002, when the first round of the dialogues ended, there have been no terrorist attacks here, even though many people thought that Yemen would become terror's capital," says Hitar, eyes glinting shrewdly from beneath his emerald-green turban. "Three hundred and sixty-four young men have been released after going through the dialogues and none of these have left Yemen to fight anywhere else."

"Yemen's strategy has been unconventional certainly, but it has achieved results that we could never have hoped for," says one European diplomat, who did not want to be named. "Yemen has gone from being a potential enemy to becoming an indispensable ally in the war on terror."

To be sure, the prisoner-release program is not solely responsible for the absence of attacks in Yemen. The government has undertaken a range of measures to combat terrorism from closing down extreme madrassahs, the Islamic schools sometimes accused of breeding hate, to deporting foreign militants.

Eager to spread the news of his success, Hitar welcomes foreigners into his home, fussing over them and pouring endless cups of tea. But beyond the otherwise nondescript house, a sense of menace lurks. Two military jeeps are parked outside, and soldiers peer through the gathering dark at passing cars. The evening wind sweeps through the unpaved streets, lifting clouds of dust and whipping up men's jackets to expose belts hung with daggers, pistols, and mobile telephones.

Seated amid stacks of Korans and religious texts, Hitar explains that his system is simple. He invites militants to use the Koran to justify attacks on innocent civilians and when they cannot, he shows them numerous passages commanding Muslims not to attack civilians, to respect other religions, and fight only in self-defense.

For example, he quotes: "Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain all mankind entirely. And, whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." He uses the passage to bolster his argument against bombing Western targets in Yemen - attacks he says defy the Koran. And, he says, the Koran says under no circumstances should women and children be killed.

If, after weeks of debate, the prisoners renounce violence they are released and offered vocational training courses and help to find jobs.

Hitar's belief that hardened militants trained by Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan could change their stripes was initially dismissed by US diplomats in Sanaa as dangerously naïve, but the methods of the scholarly cleric have little in common with the other methods of fighting extremism. Instead of lecturing or threatening the battle-hardened militants, he listens to them.

"An important part of the dialogue is mutual respect," says Hitar. "Along with acknowledging freedom of expression, intellect and opinion, you must listen and show interest in what the other party is saying."

Only after winning the militants' trust does Hitar gradually begin to correct their beliefs. He says that most militants are ordinary people who have been led astray. Just as they were taught Al Qaeda's doctrines, he says, so too can they be taught more- moderate ideas. "If you study terrorism in the world, you will see that it has an intellectual theory behind it," says Hitar. "And any kind of intellectual idea can be defeated by intellect."

The program's success surprised even Hitar. For years Yemen was synonymous with violent Islamic extremism. The ancestral homeland of Mr. bin Laden, it provided two-thirds of recruits for his Afghan camps, and was notorious for kidnappings of foreigners and the bombing of the American warship USS Cole in 2000 that killed 17 sailors. Resisting US pressure, Yemen declined to meet violence with violence.

"It's only logical to tackle these people through their brains and heart," says Faris Sanabani, a former adviser to President Abdullah Saleh and editor-in-chief of the Yemen Observer, a weekly English-language newspaper. "If you beat these people up they become more stubborn. If you hit them, they will enjoy the pain and find something good in it - it is a part of their ideology. Instead, what we must do is erase what they have been taught and explain to them that terrorism will only harm Yemenis' jobs and prospects. Once they understand this they become fighters for freedom and democracy, and fighters for the true Islam," he says.

Some freed militants were so transformed that they led the army to hidden weapons caches and offered the Yemeni security services advice on tackling Islamic militancy. A spectacular success came in 2002 when Abu Ali al Harithi, Al Qaeda's top commander in Yemen, was assassinated by a US air-strike following a tip-off from one of Hitar's reformed militants.

Yet despite the apparent success in Yemen, some US diplomats have criticized it for apparently letting Islamic militants off the hook with little guarantee that they won't revert to their old ways once released from prison.

Yemen, however, argues that holding and punishing all militants would create only further discontent, pointing out that the actual perpetrators of attacks have all been prosecuted, with the bombers of the USS Cole and the French oil tanker, the SS Limburg. All received death sentences.

"Yemeni goals are long-term political aims whereas the American agenda focuses on short-term prosecution of military or law enforcement objectives," wrote Charles Schmitz, a specialist in Yemeni affairs, in 2004 report for the Jamestown Foundation, an influential US think tank.

"These goals are not necessarily contradictory, with each government recognizing that compromises and accommodations must be made, but their ambiguities create tense moments."

Some members of the Yemeni government also hanker for a more iron-fisted approach, and Yemen remains on high alert for further attacks. Fighter planes regularly swoop low over the ancient mud-brick city of Sanaa to send a clear message to any would-be militants.

An additional cause of friction with the US is that while Yemen successfully discourages attacks within its borders on the grounds that tourism and trade will suffer, it has done little to tackle anti-Western sentiment or the corruption, poverty, and lack of opportunity that fuels Islamic militancy.

"Yemen still faces serious challenges, but despite the odd hiccup, we sometimes have to admit that Yemenis know Yemen best," says the European diplomat. "And if their system works, who are we to complain?"

As the relative success of Yemen's unusual approach becomes apparent, Hitar has been invited to speak to antiterrorism specialists at London's New Scotland Yard, as well as to French and German police, hoping to defuse growing militancy among Muslim immigrants.

US diplomats have also approached the cleric to see if his methods can be applied in Iraq, says Hitar.

"Before the dialogues began, there was only one way to fight terrorism, and that was through force," he says. "Now there is another way: dialogue."


You must abandon anti Allah terror.

Whether the Koran is reliable or not has nothing to do with the reliability of the Holy Bible.
There are several excellent books and tapes that demonstrate that the Bible is reliable.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

Well I wish I could agree but I am trying my best to be honest and I find the same teaching in the Koran as the Bible, a bit more clear and not man made washed up for man power or control, I came to realizing this after I learned Mohammed dies only 2 years after taking Meca. the rest is history.

This link here cross references the Bible and Koran, they are very mush the same God and words to guide people, only one in simple arabic while the other origionaly in Aramaic (also arabic) and hebrew.
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jews-and-Muslims-Agree/
Jews and Muslims Agree

"Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." Holy Koran 3:81

Scripture

The Ten Commandments in the Holy Quran

Names and Attributes of God in the Bible and Koran
Abraham to Zechariah
The Koran is a Book for Jews

Dietary

Halal is Kosher: Jewish - Muslim dietary laws compared

Why we Don't eat pork

Belief

Jewish and Muslim prayers

Jews didn't kill Jesus

Monotheists against Trinity

Monotheists against Pharaoh

Rite

Sabbath according to Islam

Women and the veil

Why men are circumcised

Jews and the Hajj Pilgrimage

Afterlife

Heaven in Judaism and Islam

Please use the link above to see the details.
Anyone who disputes with the Qur'an containing God's Commandments wether they believe its was forged or not has a Anti Semitic Problem because no one but god claims credit for it, even Mohammed was clearly told that he is just a messenger and has not authority over anyone.


And I do agree with "something" Morgatide has said, people have there own capacity to understand the bible or koran and I agree with this because they have there own deeds to live with. but he said this to claim Islam forces people to do what the torah taught them then in practice amnd not theory, I guess he has a problem with this.

Saying this I also have to mention others that I can not see where in the bible that it stated NOT to expect another prophet,
* Paul was NOT a prophet or even nearly had anything to share like prior prophets or at all or considered one,

Also, he was a repenter, a ex jew who persecuted and murdered many early ethnic christians and some say sold the ideologies of Christianity to pagan rome with the trinity tossed in there years after Jesus teachings.

I again remind people to look at some links with out prejudice;
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_christianity.htm

You are apostate.
Give up politics Morganite, they are for liars and your not a good one for sure :)


You're a simple been anti semitic and racist, as anti semitic you claim jew haters are, you also never admitted that some who call themselves jews are also anti semitic and believe in ethnic cleansing israel brings them closer to there Goals, which are??

And they also twist things to avoid confrontations which exposes them as we see many on websites just like you, spending there entire time on distorting Gods words to people to create a political propaganda smokescreen in covering up there anti Semitic views to provoke hate trends between arabs (both of the jewish and muslim faiths).

OR of course, trying to get there web site more hits for add money.

Whatever your case, you sold out your own soul and you have your own deeds, I again want the truth to be opened.

So stop your ANTISEMITIC JEWISH AND MUSLIM HATRED and move on Morgetide, GET A LIFE Already.

By the way, Freemasons and their god baale believe in the supreme Being as well (God) but fallow Solomon's rituals but certain degrees vow to the prince of light AKA LUCIFER, and you can see by the rings they where if they are 33 degree scottish masons or not, like G W Bush or his cousin Kerry who all practice occult beliefs, and all bow like abraham but to LUCIFER .

God only accepts from righteous people no matter what kind of hoaxes they do, so there rituals mean nothing to believers, and God allow Satan to attack disbelievers in God, for God promised Salvation only to those who keep his commandments.

Here you go kid;http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masons.htm

And this is from a jewish free mason who says they are the best in controlling ameriKKKa and the foregn policy,

We used to be free masons, but we can't afford it anymore. Now were Low-Monthly-Fee Masons.
http://www.entu.cas.cz/fyziol/freetime/eternity/jew.jpg

See? Religious nuts are all about conflict.

http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Adventuring_Party.jpg
Guess what religions these geeks are in?

And remember the message againhttp://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Another_Church_Sign.jpg

See? Religious nuts are all about conflict.
And health nuts have the answers?

In any case, the perfect definition of religion is ;
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.



So I take it your religion is the Simpsons?

:eek:

Kiddin yah
http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Nuns_Have_Fun_Too.jpg BUT...
I think you have a good point,
Especially when people abuse religion to impose rules on other people's free choice., a gift from God to choose good or evil.

And health nuts have the answers?

in any case, the perfect definition of religion is ;
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.



So i take it your religion is the Simpsons?

:eek:

Kiddin yah
http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/media/11/Nuns_Have_Fun_Too.jpg BUT.......
i think you have a good point,
Especially when people abuse religion to impose rules on other people's free choice., a gift from God to choose good or evil.

I am sure that you did not mean you are anti-rules since rules are essential to civilization and prevent the strong from abusing the weak. Neither do I believe that you meant that God doesn't care what we choose since that would make him amoral.

Hmmm I never saw this thread before. I guess that's because the second-last post is dated several months ago. In any event, what a huge carry-on over a simple question!

I am a Jew, although not a very relgious one. The rabbi at my synagogue calls G-d HaShem, which just means "The Name". There are many other titles or names for G-d in the siddur (prayer book), Ad-nai seeming to be the most common. Among Jews, G-d's actual name, YHVH (the Hebrew letters yud hay vov hay) is not spoken aloud, and it's not even clear how it's pronounced. I have heard some Christians use the word Yahweh, but that's just speculation on their part.

Judaism aside, I think there are many different names for G-d, depending on your beliefs: Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Jehovah, Buddha, Shiva, etc... G-d has many names, and I don't believe there is one "correct" name, just as I don't believe that one religion is better than all others.

I think that in the USA it is impossible to impose religious rules on anyone who will resist them.
That may be true in any country if a person totally resists regardless of the consequences.
One of the things I like about Christianity if practiced as it should be is that it is a religion of attraction rather and one that is imposed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

You can interpret and follow any thing you want but the bottom line is always how you handle the version of the truth that you understand! If this leads you to love your fellow man... cool, if it starts an argument about who's right and who's wrong phffft! And no matter who can quote what, its just an opinion without first hand knowledge! For the record though while they may be great books all the bibles are man-made and there is no way I could blindly follow any of them Just me, I really can't find it in me to be mad about what you believe because I do what I think is best for me and mine no matter what Moses, John, Mohammed says or has said !:cool:

I think that in the USA it is impossible to impose religious rules on anyone who will resist them.
That may be true in any country if a person totally resists regardless of the consequences.
One of the things I like about Christianity if practiced as it should be is that it is a religion of attraction rather and one that is imposed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I agree! No religion should be imposed on others, because in that case we would not be living in a free society. It would be a fascist state, or a situation similar to those in certain Arab countries where fundamentalist Islam is imposed. And when people are forced to believe something, it's not real belief anyway. There needs to be free will and a choice when it comes to faith.

Well, in Hebrew,"JEHOVAH" is derived from the root of the verb to be, but is a combination of future, present, and past, in one word. I'm not familiar with any other word in Hebrew wich has this combination. This is, as far as I know, to make us acknowledge the eternity of our GOD, and also, to make us keep in mind that he is the CREATOR of ALL - he made everything BE!
Millie

Arcura,
It It Better To Be Invited In That To Be Told That You Must Attend. Isn't That How The Nazi Movement Got Started? "you Must Do This!!"

Hmmm I never saw this thread before. I guess that's because the second-last post is dated several months ago. In any event, what a huge carry-on over a simple question!!

I am a Jew, although not a very relgious one. The rabbi at my synagogue calls G-d HaShem, which just means "The Name". There are many other titles or names for G-d in the siddur (prayer book), Adonai seeming to be the most common. Among Jews, G-d's actual name, YHWH (the Hebrew letters yud hay vov hay) is not spoken aloud, and it's not even clear how it's pronounced. I have heard some Christians use the word Yahweh, but that's just speculation on their part.

Judaism aside, I think there are many different names for G-d, depending on your beliefs: Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Jehovah, Buddha, Shiva, etc.... G-d has many names, and I don't believe there is one "correct" name, just as I don't believe that one religion is better than all others.

Orange, I noticed it in an earlier post in this thread, someone stating that Jews don't write the word God, but rather write G-d. I have always noticed you doing this but didn't relate it to your faith, just your personal prefrence.

Can you elaborate on why exactly that is?

Well, I've done it since high school (that was when I found out it was a Jewish custom), and I initially did it just to show to others that I'm Jewish and proud of it. Now I do it out of habit.

The origin of the custom though, is that, just as Jews do not speak the name of G-d, they also do not write it. Jews traditionally are not supposed to be "casual" with any name of G-d. It's not exactly a commandment, there is no prohibition about writing G-d's name. But it is considered a good practice because Jewish law DOES prohibit erasing or defacing a Name of G-d. Once the Name is down on paper, the paper itself becomes sacred in a sense. So, people don't write the Names because of the risk that the Name as written or typed on the piece of paper may later be defaced or obliterated.

The commandment concerning not defacing the Name of G-d comes from Deuteronomy 12. In that passage, the Jews are commanded to destroy all images and names of the pagan religions in the Promised Land. Then they are commanded never to do this to their own G-d.

I once asked an Orthodox rabbi if it was okay then to write the Name of G-d on the internet, since email, websites, forums, etc, are not permanent. He told me no, because someone still may print out the document and then defile it. So even online people write G-d.

I just realized too that I should not have written Ad-nai either, as those are also Names of G-d. However it's okay to write HaShem, as this just means "The Name" and is not an actual name. In a way the whole practice seems rather superstitious to me, but I am so used to writing G-d or Gd that I can't imagine doing it any other way.

Wow... that's very interesting! I hadn't heard that before.


(sorry, tried to give you some love for the post but had to spread it around first lol)

Whoops, have to add something... my husband just corrected me regarding "Jehovah" lol. He says it's not a Jewish name for G-d, but an entirely Christian one. Again, it is an interpretation of the Hebrew letters for G-d's Name, YHVH, which is not to be spoken aloud. In ancient Jewish texts, the vowels of the Name "Adonai" were placed underneath YHVH, to remind people not to pronounce YHVH as written, but to use Adonai instead when speaking. A German Christian scribe, writing in the 1500s, was translating the Bible into Latin for the Pope. He wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, using the consonants of YHVH, but the vowels of Adonai. So the name came out as the word YeHoVaH, later Jehovah.

Wooo this is all so interesting! But I have to go make supper for my hungry family now! ;)

Hi Chava,
I've never heard about the explanation Alex gave about God's name in Hebrew.
I only mentioned what I was taught in high school ages ago. It's true in Hebrew we usually don't write vowels, but in the case of God's name, the name is written fully, with vowels, as I tried to transcribe it to Latin letters. As we all know, the Bible was rewritten by hand over the ages, by people trained to write holy sceptres, like the Mezuzah, the Tefilin, the Bible,the Siddur.
They were called (and still are called like this): SOFER STAM.
As far as I know, nothing was "imported" to the Hebrew version of the Bible (by which I refer only to the Old Testament) from it's translation.
How are you all?
A Kosher Pesah! :)
Millie
P.S. In which part of Canada you live ?

Hi Chava,
I've never heard about the explanation Alex gave about God's name in Hebrew.
I only mentioned what I was taught in high school ages ago. It's true in Hebrew we usually don't write vowels, but in the case of God's name, the name is written fully, with vowels, as I tried to transcribe it to Latin letters. As we all know, the Bible was rewritten by hand over the ages, by people trained to write holy sceptres, like the Mezuzah, the Tefilin, the Bible,the Siddur.
They were called (and still are called like this): SOFER STAM.
As far as I know, nothing was "imported" to the Hebrew version of the Bible (by which I refer only to the Old Testament) from it's translation.

Oh to clarify, Alex wasn't referring to your post... I had written something about Jehovah being one of the names of G-d (I have since erased that), and Alex said no I was wrong. I'm not the kind of person to just listen to my husband automatically haha, but in this case, I take his word for it because he was raised Orthodox, and I wasn't. Actually if you're interested in reading more about Alex's explanation, see Wikipedia, Jehovah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah). It's pretty much the same thing that he told me.


P.S. In which part of Canada you live ?

Northwest, about a 6 hours' drive from Edmonton, Alberta. I used to give the exact location, but then someone advised me that it wasn't safe on a forum like this.


How are you all?
A Kosher Pesah! :)
Millie

Thanks... you too! :) I am working extremely hard to get ready, as we are going to have both seders here at the house. One will is going to be a shortened children's seder and the other will be a more full "adult" one. I know that in Israel you have only one seder, but outside of Israel apparently there is a seder on 2 nights, not sure why, but oh well. More work for me! :rolleyes:

Hi Chava,
Same like the two Rosh Hashana:
Since in old times there weren't any ways of quick communication, and also in case there were some mistake concerning the exact day of these important days, 2 days were set for these days for people living far away from our homeland.
This year the Seder won't be at our house, but all the family will come over here the next day, for lunch (which means during the whole day): my brother in law with his family
(we'll be at the seder over there), and all our kids with their children.
I can't wait!
Well, I wasn't asking foe exact location.
I have family in Toronto and in Montreal.
We were twice over there, ands got as far as the Gaspee Peninsula.
Have a wonderful Pesah!
Millie
:)

Oh that sounds nice, I have actually never been that far east in Canada! In my life, I've only ever lived in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, although I have traveled to Alberta and BC lots, and we hope to eventually move to Vancouver Island. Maybe when my husband is finished his speciality training, which will be in 5 years.

You have a wonderful Pesach too! :)

I have also seen that some Jews use G_d rather than God.
I've been told that they do not want to print the whole word because it is holy and it would be disrespectful.
That does not make sense to be because God is a title not a name.
In this I used the name, "The Lord God YHWH" where the vowels are left out.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

That does not make sense to be because God is a title not a name.


That's a good point. I guess because it's capitalized it becomes a name? And when you pray you can pray saying "Dear G-d"? Because when "god" is not capitalized you don't do it. Anyway I have no clue, as I said before I do it out of habit more than anything else, and consider it somewhat superstitious rather than religious. But I will ask the Rabbi tomorrow when I see him, what he thinks about that particular point.

Well I asked, and the Rabbi was no help. He just basically said the same thing as I did, that because it's capitalized and people say "My G-d" or whatever, it becomes a name. Sorry I couldn't find any answer that made more sense. Actually I was hoping to be enlightened! :p

It is ironic that the very people who were given God's name and repeatedly commanded to show that name respect by glorifying it and proclaiming it should eventually be the very ones who went in the completely opposite direction by striving to make it unknown. There is NOTHING in the Hebrew scriptures that justifies turning a deaf ear to those clear instructions.

It is ironic that the very people who were given God's name and repeatedly commanded to show that name respect by glorifying it and proclaiming it should eventually be the very ones who went in the completely opposite direction by striving to make it unknown.

True enough, but it's important to realize that, Judaism is not so much a religion as it is the religious tradition of the Jewish people. Therefore, oral traditions handed down through the generations are sometimes considered just as important as commandments written in the Torah. In this case, the prohibition against speaking the Name of G-d was in effect for generations before the Torah was even written down. It's thought to come from ancient people's beliefs that with speaking a sacred Name comes power. In fact it's actually said that G-d simply spoke His Name and the world came into being (even though that's not mentioned in scripture).


There is NOTHING in the Hebrew scriptures that justifies turning a deaf ear to those clear instructions.

Again, while this is true, it's important also to realize that Judaism has never been a sola scriptura religion. That is to say, the beliefs and practices of the Jews have never been based solely on the Torah (Bible). Tradition also plays a part, as does the Talmud, which is the Rabbis and Sages interpretations of the Torah, written during the Babylonian exile.

True enough, but it's important to realize that, Judaism is not so much a religion as it is the religious tradition of the Jewish people. Therefore, oral traditions handed down through the generations are sometimes considered just as important as commandments written in the Torah. In this case, the prohibition against speaking the Name of G-d was in effect for generations before the Torah was even written down. It's thought to come from ancient people's beliefs that with speaking a sacred Name comes power. In fact it's actually said that G-d simply spoke His Name and the world came into being (even though that's not mentioned in scripture).

I am aware of the ideas and traditions which led Israel to conclude that the glorification of God's name should be ignored. Of course those who believe the Bible to be mere ideas of men might see this shunting aside of scripture as of little importance. But for those who consider the Bible the word of God, human customs, traditions, and superstitions you mention should have never taken precedence over God's clear instructions. Jesus, whom we Christians consider the Messiah, spoke against placing such traditions above God's word. That's one reason why he was disliked by the religious leaders of his day.






Again, while this is true, it's important also to realize that Judaism has never been a sola scriptura religion. That is to say, the beliefs and practices of the Jews have never been based solely on the Torah (Bible). Tradition also plays a part, as does the Talmud, which is the Rabbis and Sages interpretations of the Torah, written during the Babylonian exile.


I disagree that there never was a time when Israel felt obligated to live by the law, both moral and ceremonial. The book of Exodus clearly tells us that when given the law the at Sinai they all agreed to abide it and suffer the consequences if they didn't. In the books of Chronicles and Kings as well as in the minor and major prophets we are provided with numerous examples of how God punished the nation whenever it deviated from its agreement or covenant with God. So this deviation from law which you say is OK because of human tradition was never seen that way by the judges which succeeded Moses, nor by the faithful kings of Israel, nor by the prophets who repeatedly exhorted the people to pay strict attention to what God had commanded them to do. True, the nation deviated, but it was constantly exhorted to keep to its covenant and warned that apostasy would bring disaster as when the Assyrians invaded the northern ten-tribe Kingdom and the Babylonians the Two tribe Kingdom and the people taken into exile.

In short, if God considered it as lightly as you do, then he would have simply not reacted to their deviations. But the scriptures show a completely different picture than the one you describe.

BTW
It was during association with pagan nations during exiles that many non-Mosaic-Law ideas were introduced.

HI!
I mostly agree with Starman, with some additional elaborations:
The changes introduced were meant to update biblical laws to the time these changes were introduced. Not to change the basic SPIRIT, or CONCEPT of Judaism.
Like, for example, divorce doesn't exist in the Torah, or stoning a person for certain reasons as was mentioned in the Torah - can you imagine it happening today?
We learnt parts of the talmud in high school - and these are actually books of laws, different aspects of everyday life, not everything was elaborated in the Torah up to its very minute aspect.
In the bible, there are also laws which wouldn't be accepted today, like women not being allowed to testify in trials!
There were times our scholars made the adjustments necessary to everyday life, but , unfortunately this has stopped, and so, in many aspects, the Jewish religious law is not compatible with life these days .
As for God's name, as I have previously mentioned, the full name of God is an unique word in Hebrew which is derived from the root of the verb to be, but is past, present and future all in one, and implies the eternity if god, as well as the creation, since everything exists due to God's will when expressed by God: "Let there be...."
A t lest, that's what we were thought in high school here...
Bye,
(and Shabath Shalom!)
Millie :)

Thanks guys for your responses! It's all very interesting, but it's become pretty apparent to me that I am in way over my head. I don't seem to know enough about the subject to have a decent discussion. :(

Millie, if you don't mind me asking, what denomination of Judaism do you belong to? A lot of what you say makes sense to me, but it's very different from what my husband and his family says.

Shabbat Shalom to you to! :)

Hi Dear!
As you know, I live in Israel. I'm a secular Jew. At this moment, we're still the majority of Jews here.
Since we live in the Jewish state, the Jewish religion and tradition are observed here, to different degrees,by most of the Jewish population.
In schools we all learn the Bible, and when I was in high school, parts of the Talmud as well (which I quite enjoyed) .
We generally keep the tradition at home:Rosh Hashana, Om Kippur, Pesah, etc.
We drive on Saturdays. I was born in Bucharest a, Romania and came to Israel when I was 12 y. old (AGES AGO!)
My mother was raised in a "modern"-traditional family, which might be like Bney Akiva today.
My father grew up in an Orthodox family, he even went to a "Heder" when he was little.
In his teens, he rebelled and went to Hashomer Hatzair.
My husband grew was born here, he grew up in a Sefardic traditional family - like Bney Akiva - his father was a Hazan.
I be glad to answer any questions you might still have, tough I think the other participants might find it boring.
Bye,
Millie:)

On the contrary Millie,I find the religious discussion engaged here absolutely fascinating and that members of the same religion have grown in different directions with their own identities so to speak. As I can strictly follow no set belief,the fact that a multiple of beliefs can be discussed with no malice or name calling or no presumption of judgement is refreshing to this forum, and hope that others who follow different beliefs weigh in as well.:cool: :)

Actually, Millie, I find it interesting because I wasn't aware there were so many differnet denominations so to speak as there is with Christians. I may not understand stand it all but I am finding I am learning a little this. Especially, coming from both Ornages andyour points of views.

Thanks Millie! Ah that explains the differences then, you being secular. I've been secular too, all of my life. The difference with me is though, not being in Israel, I never learned anything in school; I am learning now. My husband and I are both agnostics actually, but he was raised Modern Orthodox, and still believes the teachings although he doesn't keep many of the laws lol. His parents have since gravitated towards the Lubavitch. Actually his sister and her family, and his brother are all Lubavitch as well. We never went to synagogue until we adopted our niece and nephew, and we are taking them to shul because they are saying kaddish for theie parents. Although the children's parents were not religious either, their grandparents were quite influential in the children's lives, as far as religious beliefs go. So it's a bit difficult, as the kids are used to a lot of the Lubavitch practices. I've had to make a few compromises for them since they've been here.

It is very interesting, and I will continue asking questions whether the other members think it's boring or not LOL! :p But as you can see, there are already two here besides me who don't.

Yup jduke there are actually many different Jewish denominations, probably not as many as within Christianity, but there are a few. The major ones are Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, and Orthodox. There are also a couple of other groups I've heard of, the Traditionalists and the Jewish Renewal. Then of course there's secular Jews, and Jews who are agnostics and atheists (my grandmother was a Jewish communist lol). Among the Orthodox, there are the Modern Orthodox, and the various groups of Hasidic Jews. The Lubavitch, who I mentioned earlier, are Hasidic Jews, but they are different from some of the other Hasidic groups in that they associate with other Jews and prostelize (spelling?). Whereas most Hasidic groups (Bobovers, Satmars, etc) are quite insular and don't have much to do with other Jews.

Thanks!
I'll elaborate as far as you would like to.
In any case, I consider myself as a person who believes in a higher Something. I don't , personally , like the whole religions business. In my opinion, religions are sort of political- religious parties.
I fully believe that the role of religions is mainly to help us maintain a moral conduct, of mutual respect, a way of living which will enable all of us to coexist.
The fast that we observe Jewish traditions, to a certain degree ( which will never be considered enough by orthodox Jews), is only because we were born Jews and we live in a Jewish state.
Bye,
Mille :)

Hi Dear!
I was born in Bucharest a, Romania and came to Israel when I was 12 y. old (AGES AGO!)


Oh cool... my biological mother's family came from Romania as well... the state/province of Transylvania, actually. Coincidentally, my husband's family is also originally from Transylvania. Our families lived quite close to each other, in neighboring towns, for hundreds of years... up until the Shoah, that is. :( Anyway I've always thought it was kind of cool that my husband and I met up here in Canada. It must have been fate! :)

Thanks!
I'll elaborate as far as you would like to.
In any case, I consider myself as a person who believes in a higher Something. I don't , personally , like the whole religions business. In my opinion, religions are sort of political- religious parties.
I fully believe that the role of religions is mainly to help us maintain a moral conduct, of mutual respect, a way of living which will enable all of us to coexist.
The fast that we observe Jewish traditions, to a certain degree ( which will never be considered enough by orthodox Jews), is only due to the fact that we were born Jews and we live in a Jewish state.
Bye,
Mille :)

Yup I'm with you about the religious aspects. I love keeping the traditions and holidays, especially for the children, it's very fun. But I don't really believe in the laws (although I find discussions about them interesting), and I have no desire to become Lubavitch ever! I especially don't like the laws of Family Purity. My in-laws say Family Purity is not degrading to women, but I really don't agree. Just curious, but how common is Family Purity in Israel? Since you're secular, you don't practice it, do you?

In short, if God considered it as lightly as you do, then he would have simply not reacted to their deviations. But the scriptures show a completely different picture than the one you describe.


Thanks very much for the long response, Starman. It was fascinating to read! However, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that I take things lightly. Actually I am very serious in my discussions. And the remarks I made were based on things I've heard from my family and in-laws, who are very religious Jews. To say that they take any part of their faith lightly is really unfair and not true at all. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to disrespect them.

Dear Chava,
You're right, I never practised the Purity laws - I only went to the Mikveh when I married (I had to show the Rabbi the notice that I went there)
I DO regard the purity laws degrading - I think that in old times, when people didn't have baths in their homes, there was a point. As to the period you're supposed to stay away -THIS IS really degrading!
In any case, among the Ethiopian Jews, in Ethiopia, women used to LIVE in a different shed!
As you very well know, this is the reason religious Jews won't shake a woman's hand!
TALK ABOUT DEGRADING!
Now I'm a grand mother - so if they won't shake my hand now - should I regard it as a compliment?
In any case, I look much younger than I really an (genetic trait) but I do have some white hair, so I am amused at times!
Bye,
Millie :)

That's a good point, about not having baths in the homes. Yeah it makes more sense in that case, but not for today. I don't think anyone (except the very poor), don't have indoor plumbing these days.

And yeah I'm well acquainted with the not shaking hands or touching stuff. My father-in-law and brother-in-law both won't touch me. Apparently also, if we practiced the laws of Family Purity, my husband would not be allowed to touch our adopted daughter (niece) once she hits puberty, since they are not biological father and daughter. He assures me that he would never do that to Shaina no matter what, but I told him if he ever did I would divorce him!! I really hate that law!

And LOL about the compliment. Yeah probably you should take it as one! ;)

Thanks very much for the long response, Starman. It was fascinating to read! However, I don't think it's fair of you to assume that I take things lightly. Actually I am very serious in my discussions. And the remarks I made were based on things I've heard from my family and in-laws, who are very religious Jews. To say that they take any part of their faith lightly is really unfair and not true at all. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to disrespect them.



My apologies if I came across as disrespectful. I am sure that your family takes their faith very seriously. So I in no way was trying to cast doubt on their sincerity. I was merely responding to your statements which seemed to justify ignoring the clear biblical exhortations in reference to God's name. Can we really say we take those commandments seriously if we justify ignoring them because of superstition or customs that developed hundreds of years after they were given? If indeed we are to hold the statements of the Hebrew scriptures as inspired of God, then the exhortation to make his name known should have been heeded not ignored or explained away as was done and as it is still being done. That's all I said.

Hi Starman!
We're not supposed to pronounce the explicit name of god. The way it is written in Hebrew, everywhere in the
Bible. In former entries, I've tried to explain what is considered the meaning of His name as seen from our language (Hebrew) - at least that's what I learnt in
high school.
In any case, we DON'T pronounce His name whenever we read it in the scriptures: the Jews who follow strictly our religion, pronounce "HASHEM", which means: The Name.
the others, the secular Jews (like me) say "adonay" which actually is a kind of hybrid between adoni-my lord, my master, and the plural form of the word lord, master (=adon), in plural it should have been adonym (hence, lords, masters).
In the Hebrew Bible text, God is also named ELOHYM = Gods, which is the plural of the word God (=el) - by this form it's meant that This God (ours, the one the Bible refers to) is above all other gods adulated by the polytheists religion, this god is the one in which exist everyl trait attributed to all other pagan gods.
END OF LECTURE!
(I hope! At least I'll try!)
Millie

Hi Starman!
We're not supposed to pronounce the explicit name of god. The way it is written in Hebrew, everywhere in the
Bible. In former entries, I've tried to explain what is considered the meaning of His name as seen from our language (Hebrew) - at least that's what i learnt in
high school.
In any case, we DON'T pronounce His name whenever we read it in the scriptures: the Jews who follow strictly our religion, pronounce "HASHEM", which means: The Name.
the others, the secular Jews (like me) say "adonay" which actually is a kind of hybrid between adoni-my lord, my master, and the plural form of the word lord, master (=adon), in plural it should have been adonym (hence, lords, masters).
In the Hebrew Bible text, God is also named ELOHYM = Gods, which is the plural of the word God (=el) - by this form it's meant that This God (ours, the one the Bible refers to) is above all other gods adulated by the polytheists religion, this god is the one in which exist everyl trait attributed to all other pagan gods.
END OF LECTURE!
(I hope! At least I'll try!)
Millie

I cannot try because you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying.
You are assuming ignorance of these things on my part which is not the case.
I am aware that Elohim and other substitutes are used in the place of the original pronunciation and that is exactly what I am referring to. It goes against the original clear instructions given to Moses in which God's name was directly given to the Hebrews to be pronounced as given and not to be later shunned and substituted based on some superstition or some other idea that might come along. The instructions given Moses from the burning bush on Mount Sinai did not provide the option of substitution that you speak about. Exodus 6: 2,3

If I say my name is Alexander and tell you that it is very important that you remember this and you turn around and call me Joe, then it's clear that a mistake has been made. The trouble is that we humans have a tendency to make big mistakes and then we try to move heaven and earth in an effort to deny it by means of justifying it. Much wiser would be to simply admit that a mistake was made. Otherwise the sin is compounded by hubris.

My apologies if I came across as disrespectful. I am sure that your family takes their faith very seriously. So I in no way was trying to cast doubt on their sincerity. I was merely responding to your statements which seemed to justify ignoring the clear biblical exhortations in reference to God's name. Can we really say we take those commandments seriously if we justify ignoring them because of superstition or customs that developed hundreds of years after they were given? If indeed we are to hold the statements of the Hebrew scriptures as inspired of God, then the exhortation to make his name known should have been heeded not ignored or explained away as was done and as it is still being done. That's all I said.

Thanks for your response, Starman. I'm really impressed and really appreciate you clearing that up for me. You're a gem on the forum for that! Most people just get annoyed and even lash out, and then I have to ignore them. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with not speaking the Name of G-d... if you've been following my posts I'm actually an agnostic with a fairly religious family. So I'm mostly just repeating what they tell me. As Millie says, traditionally we aren't supposed to say HaShem's Name. Again, all I can offer as an explanation is that the Jewish faith is not based solely on the Torah. The Talmud and certain handed-down traditions are considered important as well. For example, Channukah is not mentioned in the Torah. It started being celebrated in the middle ages, as far as I know. And some of those handed-down traditions, as you mentioned, were probably originally pagan, and picked up during the exile.

It might not make sense given the passage in the Torah, but there it is. I doubt the law will ever be adjusted or changed, as we have been practicing it for at least 2000 years, and there is a large amount superstition surrounding it as well. I liken it to a kind of "Steven Spielberg Raiders of the Lost Ark" superstition. Like I've heard religious people actually say they would be AFRAID to speak it.

The other thing is of course, we really don't know how it would actually be pronounced, since there are no vowels attached to it. I'm sure some very Orthodox Jews would argue that mispronouncing it would be disrespectful and much worse than not pronouncing it at all. And, since the Jews have no governing body or hierarchy (like the Pope, for example), each Rabbi and synagogue could do whatever they wanted. I doubt there would ever be a general consensus.

Anyway, interesting discussion, thanks!

Dear friends!
I think both of you are real gems.
Starman, please forgive me if I call yo "my friend"!
I wasn't inferring that you didn't know what you were talking about - I just hoped to shed some light from this side of the world, hoping to help a little, maybe, though I always stress that I'm not claiming what I say is the absolute answer. (personally, I think there's no such thing)
I completely agree with what Chava had to say and I wish to add that this thing began with the 3rd commandment, I'm sorry if my private translation is a little awkward, but I don't have an english version of the bible.
This commandment forbids to mention god's name in vain.
Everything mentioned in the bible got numerous interpretations . In this case, one of them refers to taking a false oath, like in the case of perjury, but another interpretation says that one shouldn't pronounce god's name casually, only when it's appropriate.
And since jews like to argue about every single topic, (there's an inside joke we say about ourselves: wherever there are 10 jews you'll get at leat 20 opinions... a very popular opening is:"...on the other hand...", and you'll be surprised to count the number of hands one has... )
SO: since no one can say when is the right situation to pronounce god's name, it's safer not to! Isn't it?
In any case, it's true we write mostly consonants without vowels, but,the bible is written with the little dots used for vowels, (I'm sorry, I don't know their term in english). God's name could be read properly, but, as we all know, isn't.
Sorry, if I offended anyone, I really didn't mean to.
And by saying "end of lecture" I was referring to myself, because I felt I might have been too long.
( I can still hear my kids:"mom, o.k. end the lecture, will you?')
Mille
p.s.
Almost no capital letters because I aimed to end this letter today (here it's 11:59 pm) I was afraid it might have taken me a whole week to type it properly!
M.
:)

It's OK to call me friend I consider it an honor. : )
About God's name, true, the exactly pronunciation was lost due to the beliefs that developed later. Some say that Yahweh or Yahveh are the closest to the original. Others use Jehovah. In that way they strive to heed the constant commands that God's name be glorified and made known. It has to be kept in mind that the name "Jesus" is pronounced differently in every language. Yet if you call upon him he knows it is him who you are calling upon. So in a sense it's the effort to heed the instructions that is commendable. It is also commendable that the Jews strive not to misuse God's name. But of the two efforts I feel that the one which strives to heed the commands of making it known is to be preferred.


But please let me clarify something very important. I do not feel that mere pronunciation of God's name or avoiding using it in vain is enough to make a person righteous in God's eyes. Above all things God looks at a person's heart and judges accordingly.

1 Chronicles 28:9
"....for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts...." NIV

Also, God promises to make such knowledge available to everyone on earth.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
NIV

So our lack of knowledge in this area is just temporary. : )

Hi Starman!
Thank you for allowing me to consider you my friend - I really mean it- and it'a an honour to me as well.
As to God's name: among these mentioned by you, the most resembling the full Hebrew version is:JEHOVAH.
I fully agree that what really counts is one's moral conduct and what really lied buried in ones heart.
I mentioned before that I do not consider myself a religious person since I regard the different religions as sort of "political entities"
I regard myself as a believer: by which I mean someone who really strives to have a moral conduct in life and whose acts do not oppose what lies within.
Millie :)

Good Orderly Direction

Tim Walker... :)
My God has several names.
Among then are Yahweh, Lord, El, Yah, Adoni, Eel elyown, Eel shaday, Elohiym, Emanuel, and even Jealous (see Exodus 34:13 for that name). Those names have different meanings such as Yahweh meaning "I Am" so that is a name of God in English. Then there is "He", "I", and "God Most High", as a name, and "Lord", and "Lord of Hosts", "God Almighty", "God With Us" as a name, and even "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as the name of the one God (see Matt 28:19).
By the way the word God is not a name but rather it is a title like Master or Mister (such as Mr. Walker) or Doctor, or Father (such as with Father Smith).
Peace and kindness,:) :) :)
Fred (arcura)

Tim Walker.....:)
My God has several names.
Among then are Yahweh, Lord, El, Yah, Adoni, Eel elyown, Eel shaday, Elohiym, Emanuel, and even Jealous (see Exodus 34:13 for that name). Those names have different meanings such as Yahweh meanin "I Am" so that is a name of God in English. Then there is "He", "I", and "God Most High", as a name, and "Lord", and "Lord of Hosts", "God Almighty", "God With Us" as a name, and even "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as the name of the one God (see Matt 28:19).




All the words you mention except two are titles.

About the scripture cited, first, in order to understand what is meant, one has to know what part of speech is being used. In this case the word "jealous" is functioning as an adjective which modifies the noun "name". If the scripture had said his name is "Jealousy", a proper noun, just as all names are, then it would mean what you claim it means. As it stands. It simply refers to his name, YHVH or YHWH or JHWH JHVH carrying the connotation of God's personality which tolerates no other gods before him

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 07067 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
annq from (07065)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Qanna' TWOT - 2038b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kan-naw' Adjective
Definition
jealous (only of God)
</TD

King James Word Usage - Total: 6


Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

BTW
The addition of a capital letter to the word "jealous" is a translator taking liberties since the Hebrew word is not of necessity given a capital first letter unless the translator were injecting his own opinion into the text.


In reference to the others:

"Lord" is a title just as president, or premier or king is.

"Adonai" means lord. Which is also a title.

"Yahweh," is simply one of the accepted forms of the divine name and cannot be considered a separate name from that given to Moses.

"Yah," is a shortened version of the name of God given to Moses and does not constitute a different name.

"Eel shaday," = God Almight= a title

www.sonofdavid.org/parashot/bud_g/VaEra.doc
... Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), and did not allow them to... Va'era el-Avraham el-Yitschak ve'el-Ya'akov be'El Shaday ushmi Adonay lo...
www.sonofdavid.org/parashot/bud_g/VaEra.doc

El= almighty=another title



Elohim means God. A word indicating plurality of majesty. It is invariably translated as God. The following two scriptures are an example.

Genesis 6:2 (King James Version)

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Exodus 4:16 (New King James Version)
Copyright &#169; 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

16... And he himself shall be as a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.


"Emanuel" applies to the Messiah whom the Hebrews certainly didn't consider to be God.

"Eel elyown" means "most high"-another title.

Worshipping in the Temple
... appeared to Abram, and said unto him, ('aaniy Eel-Shaday) I am the Almighty God; walk before me... "And he was priest of Eel Elyown' the most high God...
rivkah.org/030130.htm

Thanks for that.
Fred

Well, in Hebrew,"JEHOVAH" is derived from the root of the verb to be, but is a combination of future, present, and past, in one word. I'm not familiar with any other word in Hebrew wich has this combination. This is, as far as I know, to make us acknowledge the eternity of our GOD, and also, to make us keep in mind that he is the CREATOR of ALL - he made everything BE!
millie


It is 'probable' that yahvew is from the Hebrew root 'to be' but after that your explanation is theological not linguistic.

All verbs have the same characterstic as the verb 'to be' unless they are accompanied by a modifier. Introducting a theological element into linguistic simply because that is how we like to think about language does not necessarily lead us to truth.

The nearest we can get to the answer Moses got when he asked who he should say sent him is;

"Tell them that he who is sent you." It does no violence to the Hebrew or to the sense of it to render it as "tell them the living god sent you." To live is to be.

From the Hebrew it seems evident that the name of the god of israel is not known. Yahveh means 'the self-existent one,' and so forth, but it is a description, not a name. Likewise, Elohim means "the gods." It is a masculine plural and echoes many Old Testament passages which speak of multiple deities.

The word Elohim is not unique to God and its pluraity it that of majesty and is not necessarily to be taken literally. The word is even applied to people, who are not trinities but who are worshipped, to idols, and even to angels.

Abarim Publications'

Biblical Name Vault
—meaning, origin and etymology of the name Elohim—
www.abarim-publications.com/Arie/Names/Elohim.html

Yahweh had a son.
Allah did not.
Therefore Allah is not the same god as Yahweh who is the one true God.
That is what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura

Yahweh had a son.
Allah did not.
Therefore Allah is not the same god as Yahweh who is the one true God.
That is what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura


Yet they claim to worship the same God described in the OT and the NT.
They view Jesus as a great prophet and say that the promised helper Jesus mentioned and which Christians say is the holy spirit is really Mohammed. I don't understand how they can say that Jesus was a great prophet and say he was lying about his identity at the same time. Maybe someone more familiar with the Muslim religion can explain it.

This has turned into an interesting discussion.
Of course I believe in the one true God who is a triune being; three persons in one being.
That leaves Allah as he is thought to be (as one person one being) out of my belief system and not God nor the person Abraham believed in.
By the way Jesus Christ (the Word of God also known as God the son) prayed to God the Father.
And since I am thoroughly satisfied with that belief, other discussions are interesting to me but not influential.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The expression "God the Son" isn't found in the Bible. Abraham, believed that God is one and passed that belief down to his descendants the they have always retained that original view. In fact, the trinitarian concept, which is alien to them, is one of the reasons they don't accept Jesus as Messiah.

BTW
I too find the discussions interesting but not influential in my belief that Jesus is not God almighty and that the Israelite view of God as one is the correct one.

In the name of God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirt.
Jesus is God the Son.
He even said so and agreed to it when Thomas called Him God. It is in the Bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

In the name of God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirt.
Jesus is God the Son.
He even said so and agreed to it when Thomas called Him God. It is in the Bible
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

First, I am not judging your status before God. So please don't interpret my comments in that way. But as you know, not all Christians understand those scriptures the way you explain them. If I say "In the name of decency I send you to correct the situation!". What I mean is for the sake of decency. I don't mean that decency is a literal person. In reference to Thomas, we who are not trinitarians understand Thomas was exclaiming. Just as one would say "My God! Did you see that?" to someone.