Probably not.


Illegals using fire to clear border (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20070618-051221-2641r.htm)

By Jerry Seper
June 18, 2007

U.S. Border Patrol agents seeking to secure the nation's border in some of the country's most pristine national forests are being targeted by illegal aliens, who are using intentionally set fires to burn agents out of observation posts and patrol routes.

The wildfires also have resulted in the destruction of valuable natural and cultural resources in the National Forest System and pose an ongoing threat to visitors, residents and responding firefighters, according to federal law enforcement authorities and others.

In the Coronado National Forest in Arizona, with 60 miles of land along the U.S.-Mexico border, U.S. Forest Service firefighters sent in to battle fires or clear wild land fire areas are required to be escorted by armed law enforcement officers.

Armed smugglers of aliens and drugs have walked through the middle of active firefighting operations, the authorities said.

The Border Patrol's Tucson, Ariz. sector, which encompasses most of the Coronado National Forest, has the highest incidence of cross-border violators in the nation. Nearly 500,000 illegal aliens were apprehended last year -- more than 30,000 a month. In addition, nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana, with a street value of $200 million, was seized as it was hauled through the Coronado National Forest.

Last month, the Border Patrol -- in a single operation targeting illegal aliens causing what Forest Service officials called "significant damage" to the Coronado National Forest -- apprehended more than 300 illegals along just a three-mile section of Arizona-Mexico border and confiscated 600 pounds of marijuana in a 10-day period.

At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation in an effort to burn the agents out, according to a Forest Service report. The fires were extinguished, and no one was arrested.

Wildfires are being set by alien and drug smugglers, authorities said, to create a diversion in an attempt to gain undetected access across the border. The fires correspond to a dramatic rise in assaults against Border Patrol agents -- up more than 100 percent over last year.

"Criminal activity by both illegal immigrants and citizens in forests near the border is a threat to members of the public trying to use their public lands and to our employees trying to manage these lands," Tina J. Terrell, a Forest Service supervisor told a House subcommittee in May.

She said law enforcement personnel have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. Because of the remoteness of the area, she said, timely assistance from other law enforcement agencies is not always possible and communications limitations and active interference with radio frequencies in Mexico create additional safety risks.

"Even normal enforcement duties bring our officers in regular contact with cross-border violators," she said. "Our officers risk their lives every day to enforce the law in these remote federally managed lands."

Let's hear it from you environmentalist/global warming activists. Are you going to let these illegals come in and destroy our valuable forests? Yeah, yeah, if we'd just let 'em all in our forests wouldn't get burned up because of our futile, inhumane effort to stop illegals from coming to America for a better life. THEY DON"T CARE! Did you get that "criminal activity" bit, threatening, assaulting, shooting at and ramming the vehicles of the people trying to protect you? Is this is the kind of people you want in your own back yard?

Two words... HELL NO!

I honestly do not think that the illegal aliens should be free to wonder into the US but I think the government could to A LOT more in order to keep them from destroying our forests! Something is honestly not adding up with this situation and more needs to be done because the cost to our environment is a price that is too much to pay and these aliens know this! I believe that it is a lose, lose situation as of right now, but if more could be done to keep these people away from our border then all would be better. That's my simple input!

Where is Al Gore when you need him? I agree with you - 1000000% - where is the Sierra Club or the Nature Conservancy Club or any of those clubs? For illegals to deliberately set fire and destroy wildlife habitat, wildlife, endanger lives, etc. what is there to stop them?

Doing the backburning Americans won't do . I wonder if the illegals have found solidarity with the Earth Liberation Front. Actually the enviro-wackos are more concerned with the impact of a fence on the red-bordered pixie butterfly.

MySA.com: Environment | Water (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/environment/stories/MYSA061907.01A.border_environment.3564eb7.html)

A Forest Service supervisor told a House Appropriations subcommittee last month that the border patrol have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. But we have agents who fight back in prison.WorldNetDaily: Border Patrol agents sentenced to prison (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52545)

Meanwhile the Senate continues to push for total blanket amnesty while offering empty promises to secure the border, which the President has bizarrely stated will be funded by raising $4.4 billion in funding from fines collected from illegals caught entering the US. So you see ;the enforcement solution to the problem can be found in perpetrating the problem. Makes sense to me !

Doing the backburning Americans won't do

That was brilliant :D


A Forest Service supervisor told a House Appropriations subcommittee last month that the border patrol have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators. But we have agents who fight back in prison.WorldNetDaily: Border Patrol agents sentenced to prison (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52545)

Yeah, that's how we treat our agent of year nominees for shooting a smuggling illegal alien in the butt - or at least that's what his momma said happened.


Meanwhile the Senate continues to push for total blanket amnesty while offering empty promises to secure the border, which the President has bizarrely stated will be funded by raising $4.4 billion in funding from fines collected from illegals caught entering the US. So you see ;the enforcement solution to the problem can be found in perpetrating the problem. Makes sense to me !

Makes as much sense as raising the cigarette tax by a dollar a pack to raise funds for education while trying to get everyone to quite smoking.

Hello its:

The people coming over our border today must be pretty desperate. It's real dangerous down there. Certainly, there's some undesirable's amongst them.

But the fact of the matter is, MOST of 'em just want blow your leaves.

I suppose it's the job of the right wing to monger fear. You're doing a good job. Hell, you got the left wing doing it too. I guess I'm odd man out. S'cool. I'm used to that designation.

excon

PS> I can't believe me and George Bush agree... Will wonders never cease?

Cheap labor/cheap votes that is the essence of the open border argument

You know where I stand on this issue, excon. Do you really need me to go though it again? I can if you wish...

Elliot

Hello again, its:

I read today that people in the West and the Southwest along the border feel much differently than do those on the East coast.

I hope they solve the problem. Nobody is going to like the fix, but I'm really going to hate their inability/unwillingness to fix it. It's a BIG problem. If they can't fix it, throw 'em out - ALL of 'em.

excon

So "at least five" small brush fires were set by people trying to run across the border to distract the guards and this was considered new worthy? Must have been a slow day.

So "at least five" small brush fires were set by people trying to run across the border to distract the guards and this was considered new worthy? Must have been a slow day.

Apparently you missed the rest of the story. "At least five fires were set below a Border Patrol observation post during the operation" in a 10 day period last month. It gives no indication of the true scope of this problem, and it also mentions [I]"law enforcement personnel have been assaulted, threatened with weapons and shot at, and their vehicles have been rammed by cross-border violators," "more than 30,000" illegals a month apprehended in the Tuscon sector alone, and "nearly 100,000 pounds of marijuana" confiscated last year, over 8000 lbs per month.

That's not newsworthy??

Meh, it's been a known problem since forever. Building a fence and beefing up security is only a stop gap solution. The US really should focus on why they are coming in illegally and help strengthen the south american economy for a permanent solution.

Until such time as that happens how can any of this be surprising or newsworthy. People will do anything to get in it seems.

Until such time as that happens how can any of this be surprising or newsworthy. People will do anything to get in it seems.

First, it's more newsworthy than Paris Hilton going to jail, and they will do anything - apparently they're stepping it up.

No one is arguing Paris Hilton deserves news time here.. . at least not me I mean. And I don't actually think they are stepping anything up, it's just that now that there's more border guards and patrol stations it's being noticed more and they are catching more people / drugs.

Again, it would be impossible to stop everyone so it's about time to focus on why they are wanting to escape from their rhome countries.

it's about time to focus on why they are wanting to escape from thier rhome countries.

Now that I'll buy. But then that would mean these other countries actually taking responsibility for their own woes.

Burning down what--forests? I am familiar with that area's geography and all there is desert, semi desert bushes and sage grass and cactuses. These were stopping illegals from what? From walking? Something seems rather strange about this. I would think that such vegetation could be cunningly used as cover. But maybe that's just me I guess. Maybe I am not as addicted to making a run for it across open spaces while under fire from border security and unscrupulous vigilante groups as these illegals are and so would spoil all the fun by not burning down my cover. In any case, why are you complaining now? Now with all the vegetation gone, you have a clear shot at any man woman or child stupid enough to chance it. So it should be easy pickings for you. Better than a turkey shoot I would think with the added benefit of doing your country a much needed service.

I think general McArthurs' solution to the border problem in Korea would appeal to many patriotic Americans. He suggested setting up a radiation barrier between north and South along the 38th parallel via setting off a series of atom bomb explosions. Of course Truman spoiled all the fun by firing him on the spot. But maybe if you lobby for it you might be able to get Bush to set things in motion along those lines. Actually, by proclaiming the border between Mex and USA a nuclear test area, we could do that legally. Would have to evacuate a large portion of America citizens but the payoff would be grand--no more illegals!

Burning down what--forests? I am familiar with that area's geography and all there is desert, semi desert bushes and sage grass and cactuses. These were stopping illegals from what? From walking?

The Coronado National Forest (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado/) There really are trees and such there else they wouldn't call it a forest.

The Coronado National Forest (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coronado/) There really are trees and such there else they wouldn't call it a forest.


Thanks for pointing this out. I had based my view on my memory of maps I have looked at and apparently the maps I looked at did not show a forest at the border between the USA and Mexico. But I stand corrected, and will check be before making such assertions in the future. In any case, there definitely is a problem that needs to be remedied in relation to that geographical area.

Also, in no way do I approve of people entering a country illegally and causing damage to property or smuggling drugs across. It is a real shame that this is happening and in my opinion the Mexican government should take a more active part in finding a solution to the problem.

However, on our side, it doesn't help to permit unscrupulous vigilante groups to take part in border patrols. That's where rape happens and the message sent to those trying to get is across that they are considered less than human. Unfortunately, Humans treated like that arm themselves for self protection and are far more desperate to get out of the danger zone by any means possible than those who can count on being treated humanely if caught. In short, two wrongs don't make a right. So that is also something we can work on as well.


Here is an article I found historically informative:


The Bracero Program
By Oscar


The Mexican migrant worker has been the foundation for the development of the rich American agricultural industry, and the El Paso-Ciudad Juárez border region has played a key role in this historic movement. One of the most significant contributions to the growth of the agricultural economy was the creation of theBracero Program in which more than 4 million Mexican farm laborers came to work the fields of this nation. The braceros converted the agricultural fields of America into the most productive in the planet.

Mexican peasants were hard-working, highly skilled agricultural laborers. Yet, despite the fact that two million peasants lost their lives in the Mexican Revolution of 1910, the government failed to provide them the resources needed to improve their lives. By the late thirties, when the crop fields began yielding insufficient harvest and employment became scarce, the peasant was forced to look for other means of survival.

The occurrence of this grave situation coincided with the emergence of a demand in manual labor in the U.S. brought about by World War II. On August 4, 1942, the U.S. and the Mexican government instituted the Bracero program. Thousands of impoverished Mexicans abandoned their rural communities and headed north to work as braceros.

The majority of the braceros were experienced farm laborers who came from places such as "la Comarca Lagunera," Coahuila, and other important agricultural regions of México. They stopped working their land and growing food for their families with the illusion that they would be able to earn a vast amount of money on the other side of the border.

Huge numbers of bracero candidates arrived by train to the northern border. Their arrival altered the social environment and economy of many border towns. Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, across from El Paso, Texas, became a historic recruitment site and substantial gathering point for the agricultural labor force.

The following note illustrates the movement:

"More than 80,000 braceros pass through the El Paso Center annually. They're part of an army of 350,000 or more that marches across the border each year to help plant, cultivate and harvest cotton and other crops throughout the United States".
(El Paso Herald Post, April 28, 1956)

The bracero contracts were controlled by independent farmers associations and the "Farm Bureau." The contracts were in English and the braceros would sign them without understanding their full rights and the conditions of employment. When the contracts expired, the braceros were required to turn in their permits and return to México. The braceros could return to their native lands in case of an emergency, only with written permission from their boss.

The braceros labored tirelessly thinning sugar beets, picking cucumbers and tomatoes, and weeding and picking cotton. The braceros, a very experienced farm labor, became the foundation for the development of North American agriculture.

Despite their enormous contribution to the American economy, the braceros suffered harassment and oppression from extremist groups and racist authorities.
By the 60's, an excess of "illegal" agricultural workers along with the introduction of the mechanical cotton harvester, destroyed the practicality and attractiveness of the bracero program. The program under which more than three million Mexicans entered the U.S. to labor in the agricultural fields ended in 1964. The U.S. Department of Labor officer in charge of the program, Lee G. Williams, had described it as a system of "legalized slavery."

I hate to think what would happen if a "guest program" is implemented.

Hispanic Business Forums - Minuteman Project in Arizona (http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyJ7VRX1GvVcBFj1rCqMX;_ylu=X3oDMTBvdmM3bGl xBHBndANhdl93ZWJfcmVzdWx0BHNlYwNzcg--/SIG=131q5l4gh/EXP=1182701397/**http%3a//www.hispanicbusiness.com/forum/topic.asp%3fTOPIC_ID=1694%26whichpage=2)

Also, in no way do I approve of people entering a country illegally and causing damage to property or smuggling drugs across. It is a real shame that this is happening and in my opinion the Mexican government should take a more active part in finding a solution to the problem.

Actually I do believe that the new President is more than willing to try . But President Calderon does have an even worse situation on his own side of the border . The Zetas are systematically taking over all the border towns . Which by the way is also an additional argument for a fence and beefed up border security on our side of the border... the militarization of the border on the Mexican side .


However, on our side, it doesn't help to permit unscrupulous vigilante groups to take part in border patrols. That's where rape happens and the message sent to those trying to get is across that they are considered less than human.

I assume you are referring to the unarmed Minute Men movement. They pose no risk to border crossers except that they are additional eyes on the border. I have seen no reports of rapes by the group .The Minutemen report sightings of illegals once they’ve crossed into America to the border patrol . They don’t rob, assault, rape, or murder.

I agree with you fully about the Z-visa guest worker idea being floated in the comprehensive Bush-Kennedy -McCain bill . The Bracero program was exploitive ;not any different than the illegal hiring of the illegal alien today.In fact ; the program actually caused more gaps in the farm labor market than it filled by lowering the prevailing wage, resulting in U.S. workers exiting to nonfarm jobs and thus led to more farm labor shortages and more Braceros.. a vicious cycle .In fact it was even worse because this legal exploitation of the workers meant that they had to pay 10% of their meager wages to the Mexican government ,a theft that was never returned to them .

If President Bush and former Mexican President Vincente Fox had their way ,a similar program would've already been instituted .We can disagree on how this issue can be resolved and at the same time agree that we are better than using indentured servitude .

Border Vigilantes

I am aware that there are law-abiding groups operating along the USA Mexican border. However, the ones involved are well-known racist hate groups in the USA which consider it their duty to stop the influx of refugees by any means possible. Also, that the incidents aren't reported prominently by the USA news media doesn't make the incidents either improbable or nonexistent. That there is definitely a problem is shown by the recent Discovery Channel documentary which focused precisely on this growing racist vigilante problem.

ARIZONA: Four vigilante border attacks in less than a month (http://www.aztlan.net/4_vigilante_attacks.htm)

Another Arizona legislator receives death threats from racist border vigilantes (http://www.aztlan.net/another_arizona_legislator_threaten.htm)

Border vigilante
suspected in the killing of three undocumented immigrants (http://www.aztlan.net/vigilantes_kill_3_immigrants.htm)\


It was during the discovery documentary that the rape incidents came to my attention.
The website below elaborates on the issue.

Sexual assaults rising at border | www.azstarnet.com ® (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/26759)



Militarization and Fence

If indeed the Mexican government militarizes its side of the border and in that manner obstructs its own safety pressure valve [immigration to te USA] it would probably
Provoke an armed revolution. In short, it would be solving one problem while
Increasing another. Because of this I doubt that militarization on the Mexican side will happen. In my opinion

For the 3 links to assault you cite articles from an Aztlan publication. Are you familiar with them and their goals ? Just look at their web site ; La Voz de Aztlan (http://www.aztlan.net/) ;it is a very agenda driven organization . It is possible these stories are true however in none of the cases are there collaboration by credible sources. Anyone can claim to have received "threats " as Rep. Konopnicki has . At worse what you are citing is fringe activity that should be treated as the lawless acts of criminals .

A closer reading of the last article shows that the rape attacks occurred South of the border by people smugglers.

The Zetas that I was referring to is a para-military group that is made up primarily of elite troops that have broken away from the Mexican military and are working primarily for drug runners . Given that and the infiltration of Hispanic gangs like Mara Salvatrucha 13 (MS-13) into the US via the border ,the case for beefing up the border becomes more compelling and more urgent.

Thanks for bringing the unnacceptability of the cited source to my attention. You are right, immigrants are victimized by criminals from both sides of the border. The reason I focus on our side of the border is because the other side is beyond our law enforcement jurisdiction and is primarily Mexico's responsibility. Below is an article referring to the activity some might view as merely fringe.

The Dallas News article comments on this disgraceful situation. Hope these sources are more acceptable.

Excerpt

Border rapes cause alarm

Recent attacks suggest pattern in crimes against immigrants

12:01 AM CDT on Monday, June 5, 2006By DAVID McLEMORE / The Dallas Morning News

SOURCE: Texas Department of Public Safety, Crime Reports
County Total number of reported rapes

2003

El Paso 323
Webb 61
Hidalgo 185
Texas 7,986

2004

El Paso 229
Webb 55
Hidalgo 196
Texas 8,401

But officials at headquarters in Washington estimated that the Border Patrol receives reports on about three to four rapes a day of illegal immigrants along the 2,000-mile border – or 1,040 to 1,460 a year.

"These are just the reported rapes along both sides of the border made to our agents during interviews with those apprehended," said Border Patrol spokeswoman Maria Valencia. "We don't know about those we don't apprehend. And for those we do, it's very unusual for an illegal immigrant to report a sexual assault."


BTW

I am not against beefing up the border as long as the beefing up isn't criminal itself.

Armed Vigilante Activities in Arizona
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Extremism_72/4255_72.asp

Thanks for the additional source . Link to the article is here : Texas Association Against Sexual Assault (TAASA) - Ending Sexual Violence in Texas (http://www.taasa.org/latest_news/article06212006.php)

Still I was responding to your original observation that :


... it doesn't help to permit unscrupulous vigilante groups to take part in border patrols. That's where rape happens and the message sent to those trying to get is across that they are considered less than human.

The article by McLemore clearly implicates
Smugglers - who extort thousands of dollars from immigrants to ferry them across the border - are teaming with criminals to rape and rob the immigrants along the way. ;and not unscrupulous vigilante groups.

Now I have no doubt that there are some small minority of Americans who have indeed become unscrupulous vigilantes .They should be treated as the criminals they are if they are indeed breaking the law. The content of your paragraph made it appear that the incidents of lawlessness by independent Americans patrolling the border is wide spread when in fact it is rare .