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    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #1

    Dec 26, 2005, 01:29 PM
    In the beginning...
    I direct these questions to Christians, but any may answer. As a preface to your answer please tell me if you are or are not a Christian. FYI, I am a Christian.

    1. Do you believe in evolution?

    2. Do you believe in the "gap theory?"

    3. Do you believe the 6 days of creation were 24 hour days or longer periods?

    You may answer one, two, or all three of these questions if you desire. I am very interested in your answers and why you believe as you do.

    Thank you,

    Phil Debenham
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #2

    Dec 26, 2005, 02:05 PM
    Answers to question
    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    I direct these questions to Christians, but any may answer. As a preface to your answer please tell me if you are or are not a Christian. FYI, I am a Christian.

    1. Do you believe in evolution?

    2. Do you believe in the "gap theory?"

    3. Do you believe the 6 days of creation were 24 hour days or longer periods of time?

    You may answer one, two, or all three of these questions if you desire. I am very interested in your answers and why you believe as you do.

    Thank you,

    nham

    1. Only to the point that things within its species evolves slightly.

    2. gap, sorry not up on that one, but I believe in a young earth idea not the old earth. If the earth is that old, which I don't believe it is, the only result was adam and eve was in the garden a lot longer than I would have believed

    3. Yes, God created the time, day and night, so why not
    Phil Debe
    nymphetamine's Avatar
    nymphetamine Posts: 900, Reputation: 109
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    #3

    Dec 26, 2005, 02:29 PM
    I am a child of God.

    1. My answer to that would be about the same as chucks.

    2. What is the gap theory?

    3. I guess it could have been a whole day. I wasn't there.
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #4

    Dec 26, 2005, 05:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    1. Only to the point that things within its species evolves slightly.

    2. gap, sorry not up on that one, but I believe in a young earth idea not the old earth. If the earth is that old, which I don't beleive it is, the only result was adam and eve was in the garden alot longer than I would have beleived

    3. Yes, God created the time, day and night, so why not
    Phil Debe
    Fr. Chuck,

    1. While changes within the kinds is often referred to as "evolution," but that is not truly evolution in the Darwinian molecules to man sense of the term. I agree that there are changes within a kind, but not changes from one kind to another.

    2. The gap theory is a theological invention which states that there is a gap of an indeterminate period between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The theory was developed to account for the so called geologic ages which set the earth as millions of years old.

    3. There are many good theologians who believe that the days of creation stand for ages rather than normal days. Like you, I disagree with them.

    Thanks for your reply,

    Phil Debenham

    PS: While you did not state it, I assume you to be a Christian.
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #5

    Dec 26, 2005, 05:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by crankiebabie
    I am a child of God.

    1. My answer to that would be about the same as chucks.

    2. What is the gap theory?

    3. I guess it could have been a whole day. I wasnt there.
    Crankiebabie,

    I am afraid that I do not understand what you mean by "I am a child of God."

    Please see my response to Fr. Chuck on questions 1 and 2. As to question 3, I know you weren't there. My question concerned your undersanding of the word "day" in Genesis 1. Perhaps you should read it before attempting an opinion?

    Thank you,

    Phil Debenham
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #6

    Dec 26, 2005, 08:05 PM
    I hope I don't sound rude, as that is not my intention at all, but why do you need people to tell you whether they are a Christian or not? Just curious, because the questions you're asking about the gap theory, 6 days of creation... are based on the Judeo-Christian Bible anyhow. Orthodox Jews and I imagine many Muslims believe similar things (since their scriptures are similar), but people of faiths that don't use this Bible would believe their own creation stories rather than those of Genesis. And of course atheists wouldn't believe in any kind of divine intervention at all. But maybe I'm missing the point? I don't know, just curious... hope you aren't offended.
    nymphetamine's Avatar
    nymphetamine Posts: 900, Reputation: 109
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    #7

    Dec 26, 2005, 08:48 PM
    Well I mean just that I am a child of God. But, if I must put a lable on it then you could call me a Christian. From what I can remember being told is the days back then were not 24 hr days but I think the days were shorter or were they longer? Im really not a bible reader for certain reasons but I guess I better get to studying because I don't know too much about genesis except for some things were created and god took a lunch break on the sabbath.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #8

    Dec 26, 2005, 09:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by crankiebabie
    I dont know too much about genesis except for some things were created and god took a lunch break on the sabbath.
    LOLL! That's great, haha! I was feeling kind of blah tonight and that's really funny!

    Genesis actually covers a LOT of ground... creation, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the story of Noah's Ark, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Esau... and a bit of Joseph and his coat of many colors I think too. But then after Exodus (which has stuff on Moses and Egypt) it gets pretty dull... all those laws in Leviticus really put me to sleep.

    Anyway thanks for making me laugh. :)
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #9

    Dec 26, 2005, 10:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by orange
    I hope I don't sound rude, as that is not my intention at all, but why do you need people to tell you whether they are a Christian or not? Just curious, because the questions you're asking about the gap theory, 6 days of creation... are based on the Judeo-Christian Bible anyhow. Orthodox Jews and I imagine many Muslims believe similar things (since their scriptures are similar), but people of faiths that don't use this Bible would believe their own creation stories rather than those of Genesis. And of course atheists wouldn't believe in any kind of divine intervention at all. But maybe I'm missing the point?? I don't know, just curious... hope you aren't offended.
    This simple reason for telling me whether you are a Christian or not is so that I may understand where you are coming from prior to reading your answer. If you are not Christian (perhaps I should have included the Jewish faith as well) then I know right off the bat that you do not hold the book of Genesis as the word of God. It was not meant to judge another, but to understand ones bias and, therefore, better understand their answers. We all have biases. I am a Christian. Therefore you, knowing my faith, will know that I approach the subject of evolution from a particular bias. Consequently you will better understand my viewpoint.

    Questions 2 and 3 concern the bible. Knowing how one views the bible is to better understand that persons answer.

    As I said at the beginning of the question, this question is directed at Christians, primarily. Christians today have been "evolutionized." That is to say that their belief systems, by and large, have been influenced by the religion of science. I am interesed in understanding those who have been "evolutionized."

    I pray that I have not offended you, I certainly did not mean to.

    Phil Debenham
    rkim291968's Avatar
    rkim291968 Posts: 261, Reputation: 34
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    #10

    Dec 26, 2005, 10:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    I direct these questions to Christians, but any may answer. As a preface to your answer please tell me if you are or are not a Christian. FYI, I am a Christian.

    1. Do you believe in evolution?

    2. Do you believe in the "gap theory?"

    3. Do you believe the 6 days of creation were 24 hour days or longer periods of time?

    You may answer one, two, or all three of these questions if you desire. I am very interested in your answers and why you believe as you do.

    Thank you,

    Phil Debenham

    1 for me. I used to be a Christian but no longer.
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #11

    Dec 26, 2005, 10:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by rkim291968
    1 for me. I used to be a Christian but no longer.
    So what are you now?
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #12

    Dec 26, 2005, 10:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    I pray that I have not offended you, I certainly did not mean to.

    Phil Debenham
    Oh no that's cool... I'm not offended. I just didn't really understand why you were asking... I thought maybe you were doing a survey or something! ;) But I get it now.

    To answer your question, it's a little complicated in my case. I was born to Jewish parents, but went into permanent foster care at age 4. So, I lived in a variety of different homes over the years, some Jewish, some Christian, some agnostic... some really conservative and some really liberal. Then I've tried out a few religions on my own as an adult, but never really stuck to anything. I'm 26 now, and I consider myself an agnostic, although I celebrate Jewish holidays.

    I spent 2 years in an evangelical Christian home and was sent to the school that was run by my foster parent's church. We learned all about the creation story, etc, but even then (I was 9-11 at the time), I wondered if the story of how God created the world was really true or not. It didn't seem logical to me. I've always leaned towards the scientific explanations, and I really believe that the creation story is a just a story that was told in a way that would make sense to ancient / primitive people, so that they would know where they came from. Right now I don't know what I believe about God, but I do think there is some kind of Higher Being that created things, but I also believe in evolution at the same time... like, I think evolution really happened (is happening!) but that if there is a God, he/she had a hand in starting it. I don't have any trouble putting the two together like that. Actually I don't understand what's wrong with believing in both evolution and that God created the world. They don't have to be mutually exclusive, in my mind anyway...

    I hadn't heard of the gap theory, but with my way of thinking, it's not really relevant, because I don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve anyway. And of course I don't believe in 6 days of creation, either. Again, my belief is that it was just a way of explaining the world to ancient people.
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #13

    Dec 27, 2005, 05:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    I direct these questions to Christians, but any may answer. As a preface to your answer please tell me if you are or are not a Christian. FYI, I am a Christian.

    1. Do you believe in evolution?

    2. Do you believe in the "gap theory?"

    3. Do you believe the 6 days of creation were 24 hour days or longer periods of time?

    You may answer one, two, or all three of these questions if you desire. I am very interested in your answers and why you believe as you do.

    Thank you,

    Phil Debenham
    I, also am Christian.

    1. I believe in some of evolution - that life forms can and do adapt to their environment over time.

    2 & 3. I am confident that Genesis is not all to be taken literally, but am also not confident that we can ever know what is and what is not literal.

    For me, it's 95% surety that the 6 days of creation were not 24 hour periods.
    phildebenham's Avatar
    phildebenham Posts: 95, Reputation: 9
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    #14

    Dec 27, 2005, 08:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by rickj
    I, also am Christian.

    1. I believe in some of evolution - that life forms can and do adapt to their environment over time.

    2 & 3. I am confident that Genesis is not all to be taken literally, but am also not confident that we can ever know what is and what is not literal.

    For me, it's 95% surety that the 6 days of creation were not 24 hour periods.
    Rickj,

    Thank you for your reply. I would very much like to discuss this with you. I will tell you up front that I disagree with you nearly completely on your answer. Please do not take that to mean I am hostile toward you, I am not. However, I do desire to understand your point of view, and in the process of that I shall share mine and the reasons for it.

    Your statement on question #1 I believe I agree with. If it means that there are changes within a kind, but not changes from one kind to another. That is, there is natural selection within kinds. I do not, however, believe in Dawinian or neo-Darwinian "molecules to man" evolution. Do you agree with that?

    Clearly we disagree in our answers to questions 2 and 3. Would you please explain a little why you believe that Genesis is not to be taken literally? And also why you think the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1 should not be taken literally?

    I look forward to your response,

    Phil Debenham
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #15

    Dec 27, 2005, 08:58 AM
    I never take offense to one disagreeing with me :D

    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    Your statement on question #1 I believe I agree with. If it means that there are changes within a kind, but not changes from one kind to another. That is, there is natural selection within kinds. I do not, however, believe in Dawinian or neo-Darwinian "molecules to man" evolution. Do you agree with that?
    You and I are in full agreement there.

    Quote Originally Posted by phildebenham
    rickj,
    Would you please expalin a little why you believe that Genesis is not to be taken literally? And also why you think the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1 should not be taken literally?
    It's not that I believe Genesis "is not to be taken literally", it's just that I recognize that there are many different types of writings in the Bible: Poetry, Parable, History, Genealogy, Illustrations, Alliterations, Similie, Metaphor, etc... so recognize that it is not every author's attempt, in every single section, to give a historic factual account of something.

    I am firmly convinced that God could have created the Universe in six 24-hour periods... but if I take that literally, then I should also be able to take literally the timeline from Creation to Noah, and the genealogy from Noah to Christ... and therefore put creation at only about 6000 years old.

    I do believe that the laws of nature that we observe (which, yes, were "set up" by God) show that the Universe is much, much older than this.

    ... so if that is true, then there must be something about the creation story - or the timeline - that must not be literal.

    That, really, would be the "short version" of my answer.

    Am I making sense?
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #16

    Dec 27, 2005, 09:35 AM
    Let me add some Scriptural references.

    1. Christ's words
    "that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8; cf. Ps. 90:4)

    2. light was created on the first day, but the sun was not created till the fourth day (Gen. 1:3, 16),

    3. Adam was told he would die the same "day" as he ate of the tree, yet he lived to be 930 years old (Gen. 2:17, 5:5).

    No, these things do not address the issue specifically, but show how difficult things would be if we took every jot and tittle literally...
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #17

    Dec 27, 2005, 10:02 AM
    Rickj, your answers are right on, and you explain them so well! This is basically what I believe too, although I'm not sure what I think about God at this point.
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #18

    Dec 27, 2005, 10:08 AM
    What do you mean "what I think about God?"

    Do you mean whether there is a God or not?

    I think it's much easier to believe that the Universe was created than
    1. It all sprang up out of nothing, or that somehow
    2. It has always been.

    Anything with design has a designer.

    So, in short, I think that it requires more faith to be an Atheist than it does to be a Theist.
    orange's Avatar
    orange Posts: 1,364, Reputation: 197
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    #19

    Dec 27, 2005, 10:28 AM
    No, I think there's a God, I'm not sure Who or What... if that makes any sense. I'm sort in a questioning stage. And I would consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. Atheists are SURE there is no God and I could never be sure of that! I agree with you totally on that point.

    I guess it's more a question of what RELIGION I should belong to, rather than whether I believe in God. Actually if I was going to be Christian though, I would likely be Catholic because of the time I spent in a Catholic boarding school, which was very good for me. I admired the nuns and I was treated well. I liked the mass and the various customs, and it gives me a feeling of "nostagia" whenever I go to an RC Church (which is not often though! ). But I wouldn't feel right at this point, actually becoming a Catholic, just based on my "nice" feelings. I want to have faith, and I'm not sure it's there.

    I'm sure a lot of my confusion has to do with the way I was raised... nothing was permanent for me. But hopefully I will sort it out eventually!
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #20

    Dec 27, 2005, 10:35 AM
    Let me, then, have you consider these this:

    The Apostles and early Christians who risked horrible, horrible deaths to proclaim what Christ did, taught and said He was were either

    1. delusional,
    2. liars, or
    3. telling folks about accurate events.

    I believe that a logical and historical look at each of these options shows the near impossibility of the first two.

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