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AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 07:28 AM

Hey guys,

I've always found toilet problems to be pretty easy to solve, but this one has me stumped... In a nutshell, the flapper closes way too soon and the toilet therefore does not flush completely, unless you hold the flusher down. I have set the slack in the chain to 1/4 inch, the flapper opens up as far as it possibly can (when the flusher is depressed, the top of the flapper is right up against the tube thingy), the valve is set so that the tank fills as high as it possibly can, no other mechanical problems are evident (at least to me as a layman), and all the parts inside the tank are brand new... (this is at my girlfriend's apartment and the landlord recently swapped everything out, hoping that the problem would be resolved). I don't know how old the toilet itself is, but it looks reasonably "current" (i.e. it doesn't look like it's 50 or 100 years old, or anything.)

Any thoughts on what to check? I know this may be hard to resolve sight unseen, so I'm happy to take some pics or email some video, if need be!

Thanks in advance!

Allen

ballengerb1 · Jun 5, 2007, 07:43 AM

Lets look at that flapper. When you flush the flapper must flip up enough to allow its little compartment to drain and water in it. It needs to trap a bubble of air so it will float and not shut off too early. Also stick your finger into the bubble chamber and make sure there is no debris or rubber disc preventing the air chamber from filling. You can buy a universal flapper replacement for about $3 at most stores.

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Lets look at that flapper. When you flush the flapper must flip up enough to allow its little compartment to drain and water in it. It needs to trap a bubble of air so it will float and not shut off too early. Also stick your finger into the bubble chamber and make sure there is no debris or rubber disc preventing the air chamber from filling. Yoiu can buy a universal flapper replacement for about $3 at most stores.

Thank you, I didn't know to look for that! I can tell you that the flapper flips up as much as it possibly can and that it's brand new so a replacement shouldn't be necessary (in theory), but perhaps this information will allow me to find the problem... I'll keep u posted!

ballengerb1 · Jun 5, 2007, 07:57 AM

Is the ballcock allowing the tank to fill to within 1/2" below the overflow tube? You need the tank filled that high, there is usually a "WaterLevel" line somewhere in the tank.

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Is the ballcock allowing the tank to fill to within 1/2" below the overflow tube? You need the tank filled that high, there is usually a "WaterLevel" line somewhere in the tank.

I'll double-check that, but I did make sure that the valve was set to fill the tank as high as possible, and I even added water from the sink to see if the increased level helped the problem. (It didn't! :) )

Thanks!

ballengerb1 · Jun 5, 2007, 08:17 AM

OK if the tank is full and the toilet does not flush properly then it has nothing to do with the flapper. If the tank is fullthe fallper has done its job so lets forget about it. Now your toilet gets a full does of water and still doesn't fully flush. Many things can cause this but start with insuring there is not debris or blockage. Got rubber gloves? Put your finger inside the 1" hole down in the lowest part of the toilet. O know this isn't how you want to spend your week but try it. This hole acts like a jet to start the siphon that pull all waste down. Plunge the bowl a few times, if you still have a problem we may discuss rodding with a closet rodder or removing the toilet and inspecting the wax seal and more rodding. Back to you Allen.

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

OK if the tank is full and the toilet does not flush properly then it has nothing to do with the flapper. If the tank is fullthe fallper has done its job so lets forget about it. Now your toilet gets a full does of water and still doesn't fully flush. Many things can cause this but start with insuring there is not debris or blockage. Got rubber gloves?? Put your finger inside the 1" hole down in the lowest part of the toilet. O know this isn't how you want to spend your week but try it. This hole acts like a jet to start the siphon that pull all waste down. Plunge the bowl a few times, if you still have a problem we may discuss rodding with a closet rodder or removing the toilet and inspecting the wax seal and more rodding. Back to you Allen.

Well, let me first tell you why I was blaming the flapper:

If you hold the flapper down for an extra few seconds, the toilet flushes perfectly. If there were blockage, I would think that the toilet would never flush properly, even with the flusher held down.
The toilet begins to flush properly when the flusher is first depressed, but the flushing process instantly stops as soon as the flapper falls (which occurs prior to all the water in the bowl draining--which is the real problem).

With the above two items in mind, do you still think it's not the flapper?

speedball1 · Jun 5, 2007, 11:21 AM

Did you cut the rubber ring off before you installed it/ if not there's your problem. It sounds like you've adjusted to OK but let me post this anyhow.
With the flapper seated the linkage wants to have 1/4" of play. Too much play and the flapper doesn't get pulled back enough giving you a short flush. Too tight and it lets water seep past the flapper. I adjust the chain by the link and if it needs fine tuning, I bend the flush lever rod a bit untill I have the desired play in the linkage. One more thing about a flapper. you will see where the old flapper hooks onto the base of the white overflow tube. On a older type with no hooks the flapper has a ring that slips down over the overflow tube to the seat. If your tank has hooks, take a sharp knife or scissors and cut the neoprene ring off on the marks provided and hook the flapper on the hooks. Leaving the ring on will interfere with the flush. The water level in your tank should be 3/8 to 1/2" below the top of the overflow tube when the tank's filled. Good luck, Tom

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 12:22 PM

Thanks Tom. I didn't do this install myself, but I will check for the ring. However, I'm not overly optimistic that this is the problem---all the tank parts were replaced as part of a complete Fluidmaster repair kit, including the flapper. I also observed that the flapper did lift all the way up without obstruction, so the top of the flapper was right up against the overflow tube. Still, I will double-check all this! :)

(BTW, nice to talk to you again... you had helped me years ago on that other "expert" site with a venting problem I had with a basement toilet pump.)

speedball1 · Jun 5, 2007, 02:24 PM

If the ring wasn't removed the flapper could lift all the way up and still be pulled down early to give you a short flush. Were you a old AskME poster?
Any how, glad ta see you! Cheers, tom

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by speedball1

If the ring wasn't removed the flapper could lift all the way up and still be pulled down early to give you a short flush. Were you a old AskME poster?
Any how, glad ta see ya! Cheers, tom

Gotcha... I will definitely check this out!

(Not an AskME poster; I had connected to you through allexperts. You had helped me diagnose and repair a venting problem in which a plumber had installed some kind of one-way valve on the vent line of an ejector pump where a natural vent should have been... )

letmetellu · Jun 5, 2007, 06:25 PM

Is it possible that you bought a flapper that is not right for your commode. If your commode is one of the new 1.6 gallons per flush you need a flapper that is made for a 1.6 gallon commode, if it is an older commode you need flapper for an older commode.

Now here is a trick you can try. Get a block of styrofoam about 1 1/2 inch square, slip the chain of the flapper through the center of the block of foam, slip it down to about one inch of the rubber flapper itself and put some kind of pin through the block and through the chain so that it will not slip up or down. This should give you flapper more float time and make it flush better. If it is not just right you can move the foam up or down.

Let me know if this works for you.

jopa · Jun 5, 2007, 06:40 PM

I have a tub spout with a diverter. It had to remain in the up position or it would leak down my basement. Now it leaks after yoy ake a shower. Help boyfriend

AllenB · Jun 5, 2007, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by letmetellu

Is it possible that you bought a flapper that is not right for your commode. If your commode is one of the new 1.6 gallons per flush you need a flapper that is made for a 1.6 gallon commode, if it is an older commode you need flapper for an older commode.

Now here is a trick you can try. Get a block of styrofoam about 1 1/2 inch square, slip the chain of the flapper through the center of the block of foam, slip it down to about one inch of the rubber flapper itself and put some kind of pin through the block and through the chain so that it will not slip up or down. This should give you flapper more float time and make it flush better. If it is not just right you can move the foam up or down.

Let me know if this works for you.

Interesting point re: the 1.6 gal flapper... Didn't know that there were different types... I will add this to my list of things to check next time I'm at my girlfriend's house (which is where the problem toilet is).

Regarding the styrofoam trick, I already tried it! (Put it all the way down so it's right on top of the flapper. It was a little bit better perhaps, but it still didn't solve the problem!)

Austin Nash · Jul 20, 2007, 07:51 AM

Ok, this may not have helped AllenB but it sure as heck helped me. I've had this SAME problem for over a year and just gave up trying to fix it after replacing everything. Googled this site, and 30 seconds later after cutting off the ring... bingo, we have a working toilet. THANK YOU!

AllenB · Jul 20, 2007, 08:40 AM

Yeah, unfortunately the "ring" solution didn't help me... (There was no ring :( ) I've been meaning to spend some more time investigating the problem before coming back here to the board, but the great summer weather we've been having, in addition to my frustration, has not helped motivate me to spend more time digging around in toilets :p

Glad it worked for you, Austin... I'll get back to this project soon...

arithon1162 · Nov 21, 2009, 09:48 PM

this one's easy- the flapper for the Fluidmaster has a function allowing you to increase or decrease the size of the air bubble. Just reach in, turn the bottom of the maroon flapper clockwise to "Max" (labeled on top of the flapper) and there will be a bigger air bubble = longer time before flapper closes shut.

hkstroud · Nov 22, 2009, 06:22 AM

arithon1162

Welcome to AMHD. Please check dates of post before responding. This one is over two years old.

Alex12345 · Aug 10, 2010, 11:47 AM

Thanks so much for the help. I cut the ring off mine and now it is flushing perfectly!

speedball1 · Aug 10, 2010, 11:51 AM

Thanks Alex, For the update. Tom