The difference is that when our ancestors ventured outside their cave they were risking their own life, maybe that of their family, not potentially that of the whole planet.

It is precisely because technology is so advanced and can create such massive changes, for good or otherwise, that we have to exert more care in assessing the likely outcomes.

Tom you think it inevietable that humans will invent their own utopic future where more billions can live in comfort and security provided by technology and anything our mind can conceive. I see our actions as the sorcerer's apprentice at work. Having a little knowledge and trying to prove how smart we are.

Where will you be when the crops collapse, when the soil fails to produce. This is the scenario we already face because of inappropriate technology and trying to perpetuate the green revolution is pure madness. The world is over populated and GM crops will not solve that problem. You think that because someone opposes your view they are living in the past. Not all of the past was bad. How many viable alternatives have been destroyed by big business in order to profit? And yes I do live BC "before collapse". Go ahead Tom plow the plains to produce your crops and watch the soil blow away. Is this the future or the past or just a warning about interfering with what you don't understand

I knew this would end up back to Malthus.

Sometimes simple is better:

Natural selection - Hawaii News - Staradvertiser.com

What's the cost of his basil compared to commercially grown ?
I already said I organically grow seasonal veggies. It is labor intensive and if I tried to sell it on the market I'd lose my shirt at market prices.
Further ,most people do not want to become farmers .They want to walk into stores and pick their produce off the shelf.
In a couple years when his crop fails due to a disease or drought make sure you post that too.
Here in the US I can find plenty of stores that cater to sustainable farming . The goods in these stores are uncompetively priced and the typical consumer will not be willing to pay the increased price ,regardless of the debatable perception of it being healthier.
Face the facts ,this is the 21st century . Few want to go back to quaint visions of pre-industrial agrarian societies (that in reality were a tough existence) . It's great that this guy can get by on selling naturally grown basil. It doesn't convince me at all that is the future model . I think it will aways serve a niche.

Look Tom we know that commercial growers can produce a cheaper product, the question is at what cost to each of us. They produce more by lacing the product with chemicals, they prolong the life of the product just long enough for you to buy it and in the end what you pay for is crap. Tom would say it costs too much to produce it yourself, too much effort. Truth is we are too lazy

Nope ,not too lazy... too busy doing our own living..

Do you live on a farm that is self sustaining ? No . You do your thing and buy groceries from a store that is purchasing them from some place far away from where you live. Yes the transport of the goods has to be a consideration. Locally grown produce is only good to a point. Self sustained farming is something that is regional . You are living in a pre-industrial fantasy. But what you neglect to say is that in reality ,it was a harsh existence ,and many people were not able to obtain the food they needed .

Tom you miss the obvious, people survived very well when all they had was locally grown produce. What we have right now is a post industrial fantasy which is unsustainable. We have allowed the cities to expand and swallow the prime agricultural land that surrounded them. Now we have a justification for transporting food from far away and even internationally. Tom I don't want to eat Oranges grown in California or Apples from China. I don't need Vietnamese Shrimp and Fish and yet all these things are freely available in my local supermarket which is far away from a large city.

Nope people starved... all it took was one crop failure or plague .
I on the other hand would happily eat Aussie wheat if the US crop was destroyed. I'd rather eat South American produce than have South Americans come here to work for American farmers who can only compete by screwing the South American worker.

As he is using what he calls rubbish as a fertiliser, and is using less water and not buying chemicals, and his yield is greater than conventional farming, I would have thought his prices would be competitive. This is not what is generally thought of as organic farming, although it can be organic, this is sustainable farming using what is available locally at low cost.

Tom I'm not talking about an emergency situation, but about trade, the trade in cheap food. So you want to eat South American produce rather than what is produced locally. Why don't you pay the premium for locally produced food then your farmers won't have to screw the labour, but they will anyway. I pay the premium for Aussie Prawns and Fish and for local fruit. I'm not saying I don't buy some imported items but not when they are outright competing on price with local produce

Good for you . A lot of the elites would agree with you . But for folks who cannot afford to pay premium for locally grown organic/sustainable foods ,the choice is commercially grown products from distant places ,or hunger.

You still give me preindustial fantasies instead of 21st century reality.You have already said that you want fewer people and I guess your's is a means to that end .

You can get just so much from a good thing
You can linger too long in your dreams
Say goodbye to the oldies but goodies
'Cause the good old days weren't always good
And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems
(Billy Joel)

Recent UN report cites studies which show small-scale eco farms outperform conventional farming - ditch the GM and the chemical fertilisers and still double the crop yields... This isn't the past - it's the future if done right.

http://www.srfood.org/images/stories...port-pr_en.pdf

It'll never happen . It will be at best a niche business.

Believe it or not ,most people do not want to grow their own food ,or pay the prices that to cover the costs of maintaining 'organic farming'. Growing a garden (where I've adopted many of the organic and so called sustainable methods ) is a hobby to me ,not a full time occupation. I don't have to concern myself with a high loss due to bug or critter infestation. I don't starve if my tomatoes have a blight. I can run to the store to buy some. I don't starve and picking all those damn weeds is exercise I need.

Mark Bittman in the New York Slimes admitted that in his basically favorable review.
Agro-ecology and related methods are going to require resources too, but they're more in the form of labor, both intellectual--much research remains to be done--and physical: the world will need more farmers, and quite possibly less mechanization.
Huh. Sustainable Farming Can Feed the World? - NYTimes.com

It's fanciful utopian thinking. The
3rd world if anything is modernizing ,and that means more people are leaving the farms . Nobody picks crops if they have better alternatives.
It is also fanciful beyond belief that urban populations of millions of people will be fed by small farms in proximity to the cities.
Where I live ,and where many others like me live , the climate is not suitable for farming most of the crops we consume. Food has to be grown where it grows best ;and it has to be produced in mass quantites, in such a way that it is transportable long distances to the market place.
That means people in NY can eat Florida Oranges ,or Chilian Oranges ,and we in turn trade our production to other places in return .

You know Tom, you are right, and the welfare state has caused the problem but the polies are starting to hit back. Tony Abbott, you remember him, the budgiesmuggler from down under, and leader of the opposition to the little red fox, anyway he has proposed removing the dole, that's unemployment to those north of the southern oscilliation, from any region where jobs are on offer and unfilled, which of course is regional fruit and veg growing areas and as well as removing disability from anyone who even looks like they can work. You get it, no wheelchair no disability, he wants to do this to solve the labour shortage, but he might even be working on the Labor shortage in NSW with a policy like that

So how's that locally grown organic farming working out ?

Associated Press

Tom we don't have the beautiful climate that makes that all possible, it is a utopian dream and I wouldn't pay a premium because it just isn't that much better and there are too many snonks cheating in the labeling anyway. There is organic and there is commercial and you just can't mix the two as Germany has shown. This isn't news you know, there are problems in many places whether it is China, Vietnam or Germany
http://www.smh.com.au/business/wooli...511-1eiax.html