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    mjpfl's Avatar
    mjpfl Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jun 7, 2009, 11:45 PM
    Red guard over sheetrock in shower?
    We hired a contractor to redo our master bath and are now involved in a dispute. Mostly due to him using regular sheetrock with redguard waterproofing membrane over it in our shower... our community adheres to the 2006 IBC and we KNOW this is against code and that the manufacturer of redguard doesn't recommend their product used in this manner. He is still twisting the language to say he is correct in using these products. Is there anyplace that it's written by experts that this is NOT the way you build a shower to last? Thanks!
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
    Home Repair & Remodeling Expert
     
    #2

    Jun 8, 2009, 07:47 AM

    Yes, your building inspector. If your town follows the 2006 code have your inspector come out and look at the job. I am not 100% certain but I think there are several membranes that can be applied over regular drywall but I never do showers that way. I always go with Hardiebacker board.
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
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    #3

    Jun 8, 2009, 09:09 AM
    Hi all...

    Redgard is pretty darn clear about the fact that it is to be used ONLY over cement applications...

    Check out this link for more specific info.:

    Custom Building Products :: Architects & Specification Writers :: Page Not Found

    The telephone number to the makers of redgard is also available at this link. You can always call them to be sure... ;)

    Sheetrock, blueboard, green board, paperless board are not allowed with this waterproofing membrane.

    Let me know if you need more info...

    MARK
    Bljack's Avatar
    Bljack Posts: 245, Reputation: 28
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    #4

    Jun 8, 2009, 11:16 AM
    Well, your contractor is an arse wipe. There are two shower construction methods accepted by industry standards for use with waterproofing membranes, B421 and B422, "Shower receptors, wood or metal studs, solid backing, bonded waterproof membrane" and "Shower receptors, wood or metal studs, solid backing with integrated bonding flange, for bonded waterproof membranes", respectively. The specification gives no description to what material is used for the solid backing and both state "follow membrane manufacturer's instructions". The only one that allows the use of their membrane over regular sheetrock is Kerdi membrane from Schluter Systems. Each membrane manufacturer specifies in their installation literature the appropriate substrates, and for shower and bath walls, Redgard is not one of the substrates for wet ares. Custom BUilding products does cause a little confusion with their literature in that one states drywall is an acceptable substrate and one does not list sheetrock as an acceptable substrate. Redgard is appropriate on sheetrock when used as an added protection in areas not considered "wet" but where sealant failure could result in possible water damage, such as the surround for a soaking tub without a shower head or for the intersection for a coutertop/backsplash where both will be receiving tile or when used as a waterproofing membrane on a bath floor where it is often flashed up the walls a small amount to prevent water infiltration at any perimeter gapping.


    Custom makes some very good products, Redgard being one of them, but their warranty program is a bit different than most manufacturers because they also make cement boards. When you use all their and only their materials, you can get warranties extendeing up to lifetime on the installation. When you throw in a different manufacturer, then warranties typically only are given for one year. When your contractor does switch to cement board, make sure he either sticks with 1/2" wonder board or that you have him switch to a different waterproofing membrane manufacturer where you will get a lasting warranty on the installation. Laticrete's Hydroban over any manufacturer's cement board would be a good choice.

    One more thing, if this person is enough of a hack to think RG over SR is ok, he'll probably cut corners or use inferior methods throughout the installation. FInd out from him what materials he planned to use for setting the tile. IF this is a site built pan, did he use redgard as the pan liner and if so, did he embed a 12"x12" fiberglass mesh over the flange, embedded in the redgard?" If it's a pan with a conventional liner, did he do it as 2 mud layers, the first being a sloped bed then the liner installed, and then the setting bed of mortar? If so, and he used sheetrock, then my guess is it's fastened through the liner at the bottom of the sheetrock which means you get to start all over again. How about curb construction? How about is there a bench?

    You got me worried for you.
    mjpfl's Avatar
    mjpfl Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Jun 8, 2009, 11:36 AM
    [B]I'm worried for me too :)

    The bad news is it is all DONE. He convinced us redguard was the 'new thing' when it was being installed and they went ahead with it. I have no idea how the shower pan was constructed but I think they redguarded it too. You can see the shower pan from the basement (by taking out a drop ceiling panel) and you can see it has a screw through it and a CUT in the corner of it!

    You're absolutely correct about the red guard literature. Did they change it recently to leave out gypsum? What they say when you talk to technical support is that it is OK to use over gypsum, but gypsum is NOT OK in a shower!

    And this guy is a "master remodelor" certified so by our local home builder's association!
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
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    #6

    Jun 8, 2009, 12:24 PM

    Again, ask your building inspector to inspect the project. They will require this "master remodeler" to work according to the code your town adopted. You don't have to argue with this guy let the inspector have a smack at him.
    mjpfl's Avatar
    mjpfl Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Jun 8, 2009, 01:33 PM
    Actually, the building inspector doesn't seem to deal in 'enforcement'. They referred us to the homebuilder's licensure board, which was the latest step I took -- filing a grievance there. If everyone just did what they were supposed to do!
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
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    #8

    Jun 8, 2009, 01:38 PM

    Your building inspector needs to reread his job description. The one I work with issues stop work orders all the time and has the ability to suspend the contractors privileges.
    Bljack's Avatar
    Bljack Posts: 245, Reputation: 28
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    #9

    Jun 9, 2009, 07:08 AM
    What's done is done. If all courses of action to see this completed correctly fail, then make it fail within it's warranty period you got from this hack. Loosen the escutcheon plate over the diverter and let the water dribble down the wall. The sheetrock will be done with in no time flat. ;)

    Who knows, truth be told, in theory, and with 100% certainty on the coverage at the proper mils and fabric re enforcement in the corners, etc, etc, it should work. The two tcna methods I listed above also state that the membrane must have upc acceptance which Redgard does. Kerdi is the only approved method for waterproofing over regular sheetrock, because Schluter has the documentaion to prove it works and has received approval for it's use. Schluter has a trick, where they thinset kerdi to the inside of a cardboard box, fill it with ice water and drink bottles. I saw Custom do the same gimmick at a trade show with Redgard to show off it's waterproofing abilities. Hack job, yes, and good luck with it. DOn't hesitate to use the shower, if you are afraid of it falling apart, it never will fial in time to have him redo the whole thing on his dime. Use it as normal and push on the walls maybe once a week, looking for soft spots. Failure will show as a soft spot probably long before your tile and grout will start falling out.
    mjpfl's Avatar
    mjpfl Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Jun 9, 2009, 08:27 AM
    Thanks for everyone's answers and concern. This bathroom has SO much wrong with it -- just very poor workmanship from the framing to the cabinets to the paint -- but the major things are the code violations -- the sheetrock shower, the compromised shower pan, the subflooring 'notched' around the wall. He has been made aware of these things and has opted to allow us $1000 off the price so we can 'get these punch list items fixed'... what?? If anyone in Birmingham, Alabama wants a name to put on their 'do not call list' for contractors, let me know! As a woman, I tend to question what motivates people to do these things... isn't it just as easy to do it right?? What did he gain by doing this shower construction this way? Was it negligence? Stupidity? Fraud?? His argument (one of them) is that the 'bathroom is beautiful'... yes, it is beautiful, like snow white's poison apple! It's rotten at the core and if you look closely at the SURFACE, it's not too great either! We spent a lot of money with a designer, beautiful materials and high end plumbing fixtures and those are the things that are RIGHT about this project.. his workmanship and choice of construction methods are what's WRONG. It WILL have to be ripped out -- and we've been dealing with this since last August. We will have to go through the whole process again and it's our MASTER bathroom, ugh. Hopefully we will be able to make HIM take responsibility for it.
    rgwenick1's Avatar
    rgwenick1 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #11

    Nov 3, 2009, 06:51 PM
    Chapter 7 2006 IRC, speaks clearly to this. Drywall SHALL not be used in wet location , building officials have every right to stop non-compliant work!
    Bljack's Avatar
    Bljack Posts: 245, Reputation: 28
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    #12

    Nov 5, 2009, 05:55 PM
    Drywall SHALL not be used in wet location , building officials have every right to stop non-compliant work!
    That's a yes but... drywall as defined by astm blah blah blah. There's glass mat and fiber reinforced gypsum panels both approved as backings for tile in wet areas. Kerdi is about the best method and is approved for wet areas with regular sheetrock as it's solid backing in such areas, even in commercial steam room applications. I'd love to meet a building inspector who really did know code and stopped things when he saw things that were wrong. I'd certainly show up on a job with a shower liner flat on the floor a whole lot less often. Unless an inspector sees lamp wire coming from the circuit box or only 10 screws per sheet of drywall, or a joist cut almost in half to accommodate a soil pipe, they are not likely to say a thing. I wish it were not the case and the hacks out there know it.

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