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    Hill Country Texas Gal's Avatar
    Hill Country Texas Gal Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jun 12, 2007, 03:36 PM
    Trane, Carrier or? ; R410A or R22?
    Help. I live in a home with two A/C-Heat pump units that are around 15-16 years old. Since we moved in 10 years ago, we have had yearly problems with at least one of the systems or both. The outside box (condensor/compressor?) was replaced, the system would freeze, Freon would be low at least yearly, coils were replaced 3 times, the electric box on the outside part fried and finally, the compressor (or condensor) blew. Now, I know that the probable problem was that the company that did all the work must not have done the job well and the fact that freon needed to be added often was enough sign that there was a leak that needed to be fixed as well as being the cause for freezing and the eventual blow up of the unit.

    Now, I have done a lot of research (no help from Consumer reports on brand names since the reliability has a lot to do with installation) and have learned several things such as (not to buy a unit too big or too small due to work amount and cycling, a variable speed may be the best option for my house and scrolling compressors may be more reliable. Also, it is important to use a qualified installer who has NATE trained technicians.

    The unit that is out is a 3 ton for my upstairs and is a Carrier. I had a company (that has an excellent reputation) come measure and I was told that the 3 ton is the correct size. They service all brands however install only Ruud and Trane.

    This company has informed me that the best options for my home in the South Central Texas Hill country (north of San Antonio which is humid and hot) is a Trane 16i or 19i (which has a 10 year parts & LABOR warranty) is my best bet as well as recommending the clean effects electronic Air Cleaner. I am not sold on the air cleaner idea and am confused about the 16i vs the 19i. The 16i uses the R410 A refrigerant and the 19i uses the R22 refrigerant (which I hear will be no longer used for A/C's manufactured after 2010). The difference in Seer is minimal for the two and the 16i is actually a tiny bit better in the heating efficiency but the cost is a bigger difference between the two.

    I have no idea which way to go (especially if the life of one is 12-15 years and has a 10 year warranty) but can't help feel that I should go with the newer refrigerant on the 16i. Then, this brings me to another issue. I hear that Carrier was the first to use the R410 refrigerant which they named Puron and this causes me to feel that they have more experience with it and that the risk of the unit breaking down may be less. I read online by a contractor in Florida:
    "Carrier comes with a 10 year parts and labor, 10 year lightning guarantee, 10 year rust through guarantee (handy in humid and salty climates), 25% guaranteed savings or carrier will pay you the difference, and 100% money-back satisfaction guarantee and in florida cfad dealer can offer a $1200 dollar instant rebate, it is not a mail in like tranes."
    This makes me think that I should be shopping for a Carrier.

    Please advise. My 4 kids bedrooms are upstairs and for now, they are sleeping all over the house and making a mess downstairs. I can't take this much longer but can't afford to make a wrong financial decision (especially with one going to college this August out of state... sigh).
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
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    #2

    Jun 12, 2007, 05:14 PM
    Buy the Carrier. But I will ad that the life of the unit is actually determined by the quality of the install. Good install lasts long time. Bad install much less.
    hvacservicetech_07's Avatar
    hvacservicetech_07 Posts: 1,083, Reputation: 75
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    #3

    Jun 12, 2007, 08:04 PM
    Go with the system with the best warranty, every brand is pretty close in qaulity thease days, in my opinion, Hire a well known company to complete the work, sometimes saving a few bucks can hurt you in the long run.
    Hill Country Texas Gal's Avatar
    Hill Country Texas Gal Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #4

    Jun 12, 2007, 08:08 PM
    HVAC1000, Do all Carriers use the Puron (R410A)?
    hvacservicetech_07's Avatar
    hvacservicetech_07 Posts: 1,083, Reputation: 75
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    #5

    Jun 12, 2007, 08:13 PM
    Like most brands they use both, they are slowly phaseing R22 out.
    Hill Country Texas Gal's Avatar
    Hill Country Texas Gal Posts: 3, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Jun 12, 2007, 08:18 PM
    From your personal experience since this refrigerant has been available, how do you feel about each refrigerant?
    hvacservicetech_07's Avatar
    hvacservicetech_07 Posts: 1,083, Reputation: 75
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    #7

    Jun 12, 2007, 08:25 PM
    In my opinion, 410a is new and like any refrigerant it has it flaws, it runs high pressures and the oil that is used is more acceptable to moisture, for this reason, the lines must be brazed and needs to be properly vacumed down. If installed right, either system will work fine for you, even though R22 is slowly going away, it will be around for many years. It all comes back to installation, find the BEST warranty, a good contractor with a good rep.
    Ron Natali's Avatar
    Ron Natali Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Jul 15, 2008, 07:16 PM
    I had a Trane 19i installed a year ago and I would not recommend anything else. My electric bill has dropped 50% and the dual compressor is unbelievable in quietness and it uses F22 which I am very familiar with. I selected the 19i for that very reason. R410 has some issues which I did not like. Two concerns are the higher pressures and the fact that if you do have a leak, you may have to purge all the R410 out since it is a blend with different leak rates so the blend will not be the correct percentages after you lose some freon. In my opinion, the 19i is the best on the market - super quiet and cost effective. It's rather expensive to have installed but worth the money. I also purchased a 10 year parts and labor on everything.
    wmproop's Avatar
    wmproop Posts: 3,749, Reputation: 91
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    #9

    Jul 15, 2008, 08:07 PM
    (quote). The 16i uses the R410 A refrigerant and the 19i uses the R22 refrigerant (which I hear will be no longer used for A/C's manufactured after 2010).

    If its put in right the freon will out last the equipment,, (it doesn`t wear out ),if you decide the r22 should`n make a difference in your dicission
    AirZonehvacr's Avatar
    AirZonehvacr Posts: 13, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Aug 10, 2008, 08:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Natali
    I had a Trane 19i installed a year ago and I would not recommend anything else. My electric bill has dropped 50% and the dual compressor is unbelievable in quietness and it uses F22 which I am very familar with. I selected the 19i for that very reason. R410 has some issues which I did not like. Two concerns are the higher pressures and the fact that if you do have a leak, you may have to purge all the R410 out since it is a blend with different leak rates so the blend will not be the correct percentages after you lose some freon. In my opinion, the 19i is the best on the market - super quiet and cost effective. It's rather expensive to have installed but worth the money. I also purchased a 10 year parts and labor on everything.
    ISCEON 59
    R417A
    Advantages
    • The only HFC based R-22 replacement that is compatible with both synthetic and mineral oils (MO,AB,POE).
    • Proven compatibility with all standard equipment components and materials used in R-22 manufactured systems.
    • Suitable for use in scroll, screw, rotary and reciprocating compressors.
    • Closely matches R-22's operational pressures.
    • Can be used in a wide range of traditional R-22 temperature applications, and beyond, while providing adequate oil return and system capacity.
    • Avoids the need for unnecessary oil changes and only requires minor system adjustments or modifications.
    • Zero ODP (ozone depletion potential) HFC refrigerant.
    • Improved COP (coefficient of performance), NU-22 has a lower global warming impact compared to R22, as indicated by NU-22's TEWI (total equivalent warming impact) measurement.
    • Non-toxic and non-flammable (ASHRAE classification A1).
    • Compatible with all standard refrigerant oils, NU-22 can drastically reduce the level of waste oil handling and disposal normally associated with using refrigerants requiring an oil change.
    Performance Specs:
    Boiling point
    -41.8°C (-43.2°F)
    Critical temperature
    90.5°C (194.9°F)
    Critical pressure
    559 psia
    Density (saturated vapor)
    @ boiling point temp.
    0.2447 lb/cf
    Density liquid @ 25°C (77°F)
    72.85 lb/cf
    Heat of vaporization
    @ boiling point temp.
    89.42 BTU/lb
    Quality Specs:
    Max. moisture
    0.001%vol
    Max. non-condensable
    1.5%vol
    High boiling impurities
    0.01%vol
    Safety Specs:
    ASHRAE designation
    R417A
    ASHRAE safety classification
    A1
    Max recommended exposure limits
    1000 ppm
    Refrigerant - NU22 (R417A)
    Part
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
    Heating & Air Conditioning Expert
     
    #11

    Aug 10, 2008, 09:11 PM
    We had a request to use the NU-22 replacement refrigerant in equipment (refrigerated compressed air dryers). After checking with Copeland Corporation, I discovered that they will not authorize the use of this blend in their compressors. They claim that it washes the lubricants from the bearing surfaces, leading to bearing failure.

    Better check with Copeland and all other compressor mfg. first.


    R407C is a perfect R22 replacement
    As an HFC it will need oil change to POE
    Other than that it's a drop in
    Also, it has been approved as R22 replacement
    By Copeland, Carrier, Tecumseh
    (unlike NU22 which is not approved,
    Plus its cheaper than NU22)


    NU22 A or B , neither currently approved by OEM's
    R407C has extensive usage as an R22 replacemnt in
    Europe. Not pushed here as R22 is still cheap. R407c
    Is cheaper than NU22A/Nu22B.


    That is a nu-22 ad you posted. The manufacturer will always say it is good stuff. LOL.
    AirZonehvacr's Avatar
    AirZonehvacr Posts: 13, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Aug 11, 2008, 05:18 AM
    Einstein had a open mind and was a great inventor, closed minds never learn.
    NU22 (R417A)
    NU22 is quickly becoming the most practically accepted solution to the phasing out challenge of HCFC-22. Availability ensured, this product has been designed as a blend consisting of three separate pure HFC/ HC refrigerants (R125/ 134a/ 600) all mass-produced by a variety of companies worldwide. With R22 similar operating characteristics, NU22 is ideal for new or existing R22 systems. A direct drop-in replacement, this product does not require any expensive system modifications, oil changes, product specific charging tools, instruments or retrofit equipment. Ideal for use in low, medium and high temperature systems, NU22 is the serviceman's single source when it comes to replacing all your R22 equipment applications. Used both as an OEM and service replacement, NU-22 will dramatically assist in the removal of HCFCs from the industry cycle
    • Compatible with all standard refrigerant oils.
    • ASHRAE Designated.
    • R22 like operating characteristics.
    • Exceptionally Low TEWI.
    10% Energy Reduction Over R22.
    • Zero Ozone Depletion.
    • No Expensive Retrofits.
    • Can Be Topped Off Repeatedly.
    • ASHRAE Rated A1.
    Non Toxic - Non Flammable
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
    Heating & Air Conditioning Expert
     
    #13

    Aug 11, 2008, 06:16 AM
    Another ad for a unproven product. You can use it all you want but it will never go into my units. LOL

    There are billions of pounds of R-22 left and any price increase is because of inflation not supply and demand. R-22 is proven by a very long track record.

    Yes R-22 will eventually run out OR get to expensive but that will be on he federal mandate date of the year 2020. That's 12 years away. Equipment manufactures will stop making R-22 new units much sooner. By then it will be better to buy the R-410 equipment and be done with it.

    Just purchased 4 virgin 30 pound cylinders for the University. Paid $157.63 for each 30 pound cylinder. Still cheap if you ask me.

    NU-22 or as it is better known as R-422B

    Einstein had a open mind and was a great inventor closed minds never learn

    Correct about Einstein but you forgot to mention all his failures.

    NU-R22B or R-422B is OK as a experimental refrigerant but unlike Einstein I chose to take the safe road since I would not want one of my customers/accounts to be used as a experiment with possible failure's.

    Best to go from R-22 directly to R-410 instead of experimenting.

    I hope you sell that NU-22.
    Side note: Just the facts below.

    “If something is not broken, don't fix it” is an expression we have
    all heard. With new retrofit refrigerants on the market it may be
    applicable when it comes to HVAC-R retrofits. If a system is working
    well with R-22 or R-502, why change the refrigerant? Well, in
    the case of R-502, it's easy: R-502 is a CFC that has not been produced
    for many years, so it is expensive and scarce. In the case
    of R-22, since it is relatively inexpensive compared to
    R-502, the reasons are more complicated and may have to do
    with corporate mandates, customer perception, planning for HCFC
    phaseout, or in some cases, a lack of information.


    In any case, other than doing nothing, a refrigerant retrofit
    sounds like an easy and inexpensive alternative. What's easier
    than just removing the old refrigerant, and replacing it with a
    new one without really changing anything in the system?
    The refrigerants NU-22® (ASHRAE R-417A) and OneShot®
    (R-422) promise to be just that in a campaign of magazine
    ads, on the web and in presentations. However, be careful!
    Our refrigerants lab, located at our U.S. Research Center, King
    of Prussia, PA, has tested both refrigerants. Using commonly
    available air conditioning and refrigeration equipment in environmentally
    controlled chambers with a wide variety of alternative
    refrigerants compared to R-22, we have found most
    of the claims to be somewhat exaggerated.


    First, a drop in implies that no oil change is necessary. When
    we tested NU-22® and OneShot® with mineral oil, the oil typically
    used with R-22 and R-502, and monitored its level in the compressor
    through a sight-glass, we observed the oil level dropped
    below the compressor's OEM recommended minimum. Running a
    compressor with low oil for extended periods could lead
    to excessive wear and/or irreversible damage. Oil levels stayed
    within appropriate limits when the systems were run with R-22
    and mineral oil, or when the oil was switched to a POE. In our
    opinion, not only is an oil change from mineral oil to POE recommended,
    it is required to avoid compressor damage.

    System capacity (the ability of a system to remove heat and
    cool the particular application) also suffered in our tests despite
    claims of improved performance by the manufacturer of NU-22®
    and OneShot®. Figure 1 shows a comparison of the capacity of
    these two refrigerants against R-22. On average, NU-22® has a
    26.9% lower capacity than R-22, and OneShot® is below R-404A,
    the standard R-502 OEM replacement, by an average of 19.1%,
    and even below R-22 by 24.7%. Efficiency data, measured as
    coefficient of performance (COP) also suffered with values 14.8%
    lower than R-22 for NU-22® and up to 15% lower than R-404A for
    OneShot®.


    Our test results have shown poor mineral oil compatibility
    and sacrifices in both capacity and efficiency for NU-22® refrigerant
    and OneShot® refrigerant. In our opinion, they are NOT “dropin”
    refrigerants and should be used with an understanding of
    their limitations.

    For more information, please contact our technical manager,
    Gus Rolotti, at [email protected]
    buzmusic's Avatar
    buzmusic Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
    New Member
     
    #14

    Nov 5, 2009, 11:49 AM
    No Advertising
    KC13's Avatar
    KC13 Posts: 2,556, Reputation: 99
    Ultra Member
     
    #15

    Nov 5, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Advances in technology always come with "growing pains" (see Windows Vista, etc.). Carrier and Bryant are years ahead of their competition when it comes to the R-410A market. Yes, there have been problems along the way, but they have taken steps to improve the quality of their products while addressing the issues of reliability and environmental safety. I have been working with Bryant's R-410A products since they were first introduced, and felt confident enough to install one in my home almost 3 years ago. It has performed wonderfully and significantly reduced my energy bills over that span. As mentioned previously, proper installation is critical to ensure a long, trouble-free service life of the system. Carrier and Bryant introduced tin-plated indoor coils about 2 years ago to address the issue of indoor coil failure due to formicary corrosion. They stand behind these coils with a 10-year warranty out-of-the-box, exclusive of any extended parts and/or labor warranty. To my knowledge, no other manufacturer offers a standard warranty of this type on indoor coil components. I'll admit that I'm not one to quickly embrace new technology, but in my book Carrier's and Bryant's R-410A products have demonstrated the ability to stand the test of time. I would be reluctant to "jump on board" with respect to the R-22 replacements, but that's just me. When they have been around as long as Puron with good results, I may change my position on them.
    hvac1000's Avatar
    hvac1000 Posts: 14,540, Reputation: 435
    Heating & Air Conditioning Expert
     
    #16

    Nov 5, 2009, 07:49 PM
    This 2008 post got you. LOL
    KC13's Avatar
    KC13 Posts: 2,556, Reputation: 99
    Ultra Member
     
    #17

    Nov 5, 2009, 07:53 PM
    No, I was just checking to see if you were paying attention. :p Good job.
    shlong's Avatar
    shlong Posts: 6, Reputation: 1
    New Member
     
    #18

    Oct 26, 2011, 09:40 AM
    Hey guys its shlong

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