Baptism of John, “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

Versus

Baptism of Christ, " baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

On another thread concerning baptism a few interesting questions came up:

1) Did Jesus’ baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John’s baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John’s baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John’s baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John’s baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT

Here is basically everything I believe about baptism.

What Does the Bible Say About Baptism? - AN OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL BAPTISM

How do you explain the contradiction that "Baptism does not save nor necessary for salvation," with Christ's warning to Nicodemus, "I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?"

JoeT

Thanks for the start of the thread, I seldom start them myself.

Yes I ask this but without going into denominational names ( and please lets not do that) I was required to be baptised about 4 times, I had to be into one church because I was as a infant, the next church did it "in Jesus name" but the next church did not accept baptisms by that church and they had to do it, using the works, Father , Son and Holy Spirit. Then another church required you be dunked three times at the saying of each word.

To each of them if you were not baptised by their formula they did not accept it. That is why I asked it, since about 1/3 or so of the denominations today I doubt would accept Jesus baptism, because it was not in his name or in the name of the trinity and John was not a member of any specific denomination ( some require it to be their denomination only)

It is necessary as a symbol of your faith but baptism itself does not save you.

Really, Dunked three times?

Add:But, would you consider each baptism valid, remitting all sins each time?

JoeT

You might have missed the point of my question. John 3 Christ tells Nicodemus that he MUST be baptized in order to get into the Kingdom of God. Doesn’t this contradict that’s baptism is a symbol? Christ said YOU MUST.

JoeT

Baptism is a spiritual thing Jesus was referring to like the condition of the repentant heart and his faith. Water baptism is the outward acknowledgment of the inner rebirth. So Jesus telling Nicodemus he has to be born again with the water and the spirit is a spiritual thing.
The actual dunking in the water is the ceremonial part of it.

Water baptism is clearly a FIGURE or TYPE of something which already took place in the heart of the believer the moment he/she was saved (1 Pet. 3:21). Water baptism is the ordinance representing the identification of the Christian with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are "crucified" (standing upright in water), you are "buried" (immersed into the water), and you are "resurrected into life" (raised out of the water). Water baptism then, is a picture of spiritual baptism as defined in Rom. 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13. It is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. A sinner is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is a visible testimony to that faith.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/DeMichele1.html

But he told the man twice - once figuratively; then flat out. He didn't say "be born upright". How could baptism be a visible testimony - it doesn't leave any marks like circumcision, which was an external testimony and an external grace. Isn't there anything internal in baptism? Does this mean you "faith" yourself into the Kingdom of God?

JoeT

Baptism is an internal repentance and turning away and then you follow it up with physical testimony of water baptism.
Why does there have to be some visible mark? It is a physical testimony to your inward faith.

Christ Himself requires it to enter the Kingdom of God, there are no exceptions indicated in the verse – there is no “less and except” so to speak; there is no “figuratively” spoken clause.

Acts 2:38 clearly indicates that its for the remission of sins as you stated; in Acts 22:16 Be baptized, and wash away thy sins : in Acts 5:25 sqq. Because "Christ loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word of life: that he might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.“ Not a spot or wrinkle, not actual sin or original sin washed away to be made holy: an infusion of supernatural graces that renders the recipient an adopted son of God. After all, what was Paul writing about in his epistle to the Romans.

JoeT

So Gods hand is too short if somebody accepts God and then dies within days before they are able to get baptised?

What has been learned in this for yourself? I ask this because I feel things happen again and again for us to gain our knowledge in what God is pressing as important. You obviously continued to questioned within your heart of faith each baptism, and trusted in man.

We should remember what Christ said about coming to HIM when we thirst (John 4:10)

Because it is also written traditions of man can spoil us (Col 2:8)

In Faith I rest upon Christ, knowing that in Baptism those who bear witness of what is taking place within our spirit, and body. Scripture tells us refer: Bear Withness in Heaven1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Bear Witness on Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Full Well Knowing
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This was shown in the Baptism of Christ (who was watching and who was pleased)
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

I share this with you in hopes of HIS words being the instruction of truth and faith, to follow HIM and deny yourself in following man.

`in Christ

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What I trust in this written word, is that One Baptism is as important as One Faith and One Lord.

One Lord ( Shepherd and Bishop of our souls)

One Faith (justified by the body and blood of Christ)

One Baptism (New man who put on the body of Christ) begotten again.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Those who do not have faith that they can not walk in newness of life(righteousness/a circumcised heart/ dead to sin) then they can be those who are double minded and do not rest in Christ and HIS worthyness to set us free from sin.

Christ blood on the cross voided out the curse of sin. No longer are we held to sin but at liberty to chose life with Christ in righteousness. (set Free) Rejoice in the law of Faith..

Should each dividual chose to walk in doubt and in sin, then they remain under the law. Being with the law that can bring them unto Christ when they do decide to circumcise their hearts in ONE Faith.

The fulness of Christ in what scripture refer in strong meat does not come to infants, and in fact the babes of this world will give suck to milk. Christ said to His mother cry for those that give suck, because those who are weak and not of fulness in Christ.

Hebrews 5:11 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I share this not to put a stumbling stone before anyone but to show that God is the power and dominion. It is trusting in Christ that we can rest, and Faith in Christ that sets us free.

How do you understand “freed from sin” Does this mean after baptism you are freed from original and actual sin; or once baptized there is no more sin; or once baptized sin committed isn't held against you?

JoeT

Col 1:1-2-3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Did you answer my question? Please explain if you did; I don't understand the relevance to the question.

JoeT

Liberty to walk in the spirit, and righteously.Kept by the power of God as it is written. (1 Peter 1:5)

Christ once and for all, paid the price on the cross to set us Free from the curse of Adam. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,and in baptism we are begotten again by Christ to be what God had created us to be, in HIS image .. Righteousness...


1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you believe the Word of scripture written in post #16?

So, are you saying that transgression is not acountable, otherwise what we know as 'once saved always saved'?

JoeT