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    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Mar 27, 2009, 06:18 AM
    Neglect leading to death
    My son, David, was in an abusive marriage to a Chinese national, living in Southampton. He suffered mental abuse in the marriage. He was a quiet, inoffensive, intelligent lad. He had a degree in law. He did not drink alcohol, use drugs or even bad language. He was healthy and physically strong. They were married for ten years. As the marriage progressed, the abuse got in on him, he developed mental health problems, and eventually suffered a number of breakdowns and hospital admissions. He was last discharged from hospital two days after Christmas (2008) and came straight home to us. We were anxious to have him away from his wife as we considered him at risk when living with her, and were hoping to have him with us for at least six months to assist a full recovery. End of Feb 2009, we had to attend our daughter's wedding in Thailand. He went home on our departure. Within days of his return he was found dead in his bed, without any apparent cause.
    His wife had just months before acquired her UK passport and within weeks applied for a divorce. In the early years of their marriage he had used his legal skills to build up a portfolio of five apartments, they lived in one and the others were let.
    When he returned to his apartment, Thurs 26th Feb, she moved out. She made a short visit on the Friday, and Saturday. He pleaded with her to stay and said he would starve himself if she left. He used to phone her on average 3/4 times a day. She did not visit until the following Wednesday at which time she said she found him in bed deceased. She told us that she had a bad feeling on the Monday and felt he had died, but did not visit him because her friend was unwell. He was under the care of Southampton Dept of Psychiatry, who had a home help team who in the past would visit him, sometimes twice daily, to check on his condition. They operated a 24 hour helpline and would impress on us the importance of keeping a close eye on him and be sure to telephone them if we had any concern whatever re his health. Before his marriage he was a young healthy lad. At the end he was a broken man.
    Is there any law of neglect in the UK that would apply in this instance. I know there have been many cases of neglect in the courts involving children.
    We are awaiting the results of toxicology/histology reports and have not ruled out foul play. His wife had already made criminal threats against another member of our family.
    I thank you for reading this and would appreciate any light you might throw onto this tragic event.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #2

    Mar 27, 2009, 10:05 AM

    I don't believe you can do anything until all the reports are back and then, because he was an adult, I believe the burden of proof would be overwhelming. I don't see a lawsuit here.

    I have no idea why, when he was threatening to starve himself, a mental health worker didn't step in.

    I think you are also going to be very hard pressed to prove that this marriage caused his mental breakdown. Many people live good, happy, productive lives and then begin to have mental problems for no obvious reasons.

    I am sorry for your loss and maybe the wife had some responsibility but he was an adult (as I said), I don't see that other adults stepped in and got guardianship nor was it suggested and I don't see her being held responsible.

    It is a LOT different if you don't feed or clothe your child - your son was an adult and she was not his mother.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #3

    Mar 27, 2009, 03:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryhoulihan View Post
    we are awaiting the results of toxicology/histology reports and have not ruled out foul play. his wife had already made criminal threats against another member of our family.
    Hello gerry:

    My condolences... I cannot imagine the pain of losing a son.

    Does this mean there was autopsy, or were tissue samples taken? Are the police involved? What is there take on it? If there wasn't an autopsy, can you order one. People don't just die of no apparent reason. They may not FIND the reason, but there IS a reason.

    Yes, I'm a suspicious SOB. Sounds like you are too.

    excon
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #4

    Mar 28, 2009, 06:27 AM
    [QUOTE=Comments on this post
    gerryhoulihan agrees: balanced and professional.[/QUOTE]




    Thank you - this is a touchy subject for me. I also lost a son.

    Please come back and let us know how this works out for you and yours.
    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Mar 28, 2009, 07:39 AM

    Thank you Judy KayTee for showing such interest. I will make contact with you again when we know more. The inquest is set for June 3rd.
    I am very sorry to learn that you too lost a son. It is most horrible. The immensity of the event is impossible to grasp. Sometimes it is as if nothing has happened and everything around us is normal and we are enjoying ourselves, followed by the sickening reality. And much more. You have had the experience so I need not elaborate. I hope you and he will be re-united again. I would like to think that too, but do not hold any religious beliefs.
    There were a lot more factors to those in the original text. I kept it brief for the website. I have forwarded six pages of submission (that too, an abbreviated text) to the Coroners office in Southampton and they have given this to the Det Sergeant assigned to the case. We hope that his wife is charged with some form of neglect, or more, depending on what turns up. She was a Chinese National. She married him in order to get a UK passport. She is very driven, has a large ego and a problem with "face" that seems to be so important to Chinese. Her treatment of him was vile, and he was totally devoted to her. He was a fine healthy, strong lad before she got to work on him. She received her UK passport a few months ago and then filed for divorce. She was so malicious that she even refused to show him her UK passport. Some years ago, Davids brother offended her. She threatened for some time to have someone from the Chinese underworld in the UK to have both his legs broken. Davids brother is an actuary in the City, and was an object of envy for her. David made an attempt on his life, March, two years ago. She quickly summoned the services and he was saved. At that stage she did not have the passport, and of course, for insurance purposes, a suicide would not be good. She now stands to inherit five properties (mortgaged). His wife would know perfectly well what to do in such an emergency. She visited him briefly on the Saturday. He used to phone her 3/4 times every day. She told us she had the feeling he was dead on the following Monday, but did not visit until late the following Wednesday because "her friend was unwell". He was under the care of the Dept of Psychiatry, home help team, who were always very sensitive to his needs. We all were clearly made aware by them of the importance of contacting them immediately (on a 24 hour hotline) if he showed any worrying signs whatever. She told us that on the Saturday he threatened to starve himself if she left him. She left on the Saturday and did not return until the following Wednesday, and despite the fact that the phone calls from him would have ceased, did nothing, not even a phone call to the services. Also, her behaviour towards us afterwards was most inappropriate, given the circumstances.
    It is very difficult to give so many details and at the same time keep this reasonably brief.

    Anyway, JudyKayTee, I will contact you again and let you know how this turns out.

    I do realise that I am driven by this, and even if we achieve a successful outcome, it will not bring our David back to us.

    Thanks again and take care of yourself.

    Cheers,

    Gerry
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #6

    Mar 28, 2009, 07:43 AM

    You are clear on your loss and clear on your intentions - nothing will bring your son back, of course, but it sounds like he needs someone to speak for him - and that person is you.

    And part of the tragedy of losing a child is because it's nature's law (or I always thought it was) that our children bury US, not the other way around.

    Again - let us know how it plays out. And hopefully, if this is some sort of Black Widow pattern, you can stop her behavior and spare another family. And sometimes that's all that matters.

    Peace.
    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #7

    Mar 28, 2009, 07:53 AM

    Thank you so much JudyKayTee, you are so right. I would gladly take his place, and I will continue to give it my best for him, albeit after the event. Take care
    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    May 5, 2009, 01:57 AM
    Revoking a newly gained UK passport
    A Chinese national has recently attained her UK passport by virtue of her marriage to an EU national. They have been married for ten years. She systematically subjected him to severe mental abuse, his health broke down and he died in mysterious circumstances just over eight weeks ago. She attained her UK passport within the last twelve months. They had acquired five apartments over this period, lived in one apartment and rented out the other five. They received significant amounts of rents from the lettings in cash. This part of their income was not declared for tax purposes.

    If convicted of tax fraud, could this result in the revocation of her UK passport, as she would have been complicit in crime before the Passport was issued.
    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    Jun 20, 2009, 07:21 AM
    Murder without a trace
    Is it possible for a person to be murdered leaving no detectable cause of death?

    I have a good reason for asking this. My son was in a very unhappy marriage to a very cruel Chinese national, living in Southampton. Initially he was a cheerful healthy young man with a law degree and a bright future. He succeeded in acquiring a portfolio of five apartments. His wife and her family treated him very badly. His mental health deteriorated resulting in increasingly frequent admissions to hospital with mental breakdowns. It got so bad that I had to take him back home for his own protection. Unfortunately, my wife and I had to take a trip to Thailand for two weeks to attend our daughters wedding. David decided to go back to Southampton to his wife and return back to us when we returned. David returned to Southampton on Thurs 26th Feb 2009. We departed for Thailand 27th. We never heard from David again. On the following Wednesday, we received word that David was dead. The police interviewed his wife on two occasions but did no more investigating. The inquest, June 3rd, returned an open verdict. There was a toxicology/histology report. There was no trace whatever of how he died. The police assumed that in the absence of any signs, that he died of Sudden Arrhythmia Death Syndrome. The coroner contradicted this and said that a SADS did leave small traces. He did not instruct the police to investigate further. His wife some month previously had obtained her UK passport, deserted David and teamed up with new house mates (in one of David's apartments). One of them is an ex Russian military man and his Lithuanian girl friend.

    This woman has displayed no emotion whatever. She now has her UK passport, she will inherit five apartments, and due to the coroners verdict, will quite likely benefit from life and mortgage insurance, and will achieve millionaire status. Nice work for an economic migrant.

    David was never unwell in his life, apart from the problems in recent times described above. He worked out and was well built, though extremely gentle and good living. I am convinced that there was foul play. The local police were bragging to us about how good they are but at the same time doing nothing. They say they cannot investigate without evidence. I told them that if they want evidence they must look for it. I know their minds are fixed and they will not do anything, no matter what I say.

    It is for the above reason that I am asking the question, can a person be killed without leaving any trace of a cause of death?
    Stratmando's Avatar
    Stratmando Posts: 11,188, Reputation: 508
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    #10

    Jun 20, 2009, 07:26 AM

    Wouldn't be the first time. Perhap she offered an attourney or someone of power an Apartment(building?).
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #11

    Jun 20, 2009, 07:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by gerryhoulihan View Post
    Is it possible for a person to be murdered leaving no detectable cause of death?
    Hello g:

    No. If the person doing the detecting, doesn't detect anything, that means the person isn't detecting very well.

    You, certainly, can hire a private doctor to determine the cause of death, and I would. Plus, once the real cause of death is determined, you can sue her, and I would.

    Can you make the cops do stuff they don't want to?? Nahhhh. I'll bet your cops hang out the doughnut shoppe just like ours do.

    excon
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #12

    Jun 20, 2009, 07:43 AM

    Hello again, g:

    Your story sounded familiar, so I looked back. We've spoken before about your son. However, you keep asking about his death as though you hope our advice is going to change.

    I want to know if you're DOING anything about it, or are you just sitting there getting more and more frustrated and depressed??

    I didn't look back to see what I advised you previously, but I can't imagine that my advice is any different today than it was then.

    excon
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #13

    Jun 20, 2009, 06:20 PM

    Dr Cyril Wecht is very good at finding cause of death. I would find one of the best to have an autopsy if it is possible for you to do so.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #14

    Jun 20, 2009, 06:33 PM

    There are 1000's of way to kill someone and in the end, while they may find most, it is finding , plus even if they find something, like air injected into a vien perhaps but even if they prove a reason, finding the who did it is another issue.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #15

    Jun 20, 2009, 06:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    finding the who did it is another issue.


    NCIS Cast - CBS.com
    Abby (Pauley Perrette) to the rescue :D
    twinkiedooter's Avatar
    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #16

    Jun 21, 2009, 01:46 PM

    Dr. Michael Boden and Dr. Cyril Wecht are two of the best forensic pathologists in the world. If you cannot afford their services possibly they could recommend someone over in Dublin or Ireland that could help you. Keep at this as there is no statute of limitations on murder. The body must be gone over literally with a fine tooth comb for any odd punctures. There are a lot of different compounds that can kill you over a period. Sounds like she used one on your son.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,966, Reputation: 6056
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    #17

    Jun 21, 2009, 02:18 PM

    I've merged your threads that all referenced your son's death. Its better to kep everything in one place.

    As noted, you need to hire an independent forensic pathologist to examine the body. That's the only way you will get anything done.
    gerryhoulihan's Avatar
    gerryhoulihan Posts: 23, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Jun 22, 2009, 01:26 AM
    Hi ScottGem,

    Thank you for your reply. I fear that you are correct. If the Autopsy, Toxicology, and Histology procedures were carried out to the same incompetent standard as the investigation and inquest, then it is not surprising that the results were zero on all counts.

    As a matter of fact, there was one trace found in the tox examination, a substance called DBZP. This is a corruption of a substance called BZP, a component in a party drug that is a weaker version of Ecstasy. The presence of this substance is impossible, and to me serves as another example of their extreme incompetence. David was in our care 24-7 since his discharge from hospital just after Christmas, and in hospital for six weeks prior to then. There is no way he could have taken this. This substance comes from New Zealand. We live in Ireland. The doctor said that the substance is harmless, and that they know nothing about it (there lies another contradiction, among many).

    David was extremely quiet living. He didn't party, his friends were widely spread and only visited occasionally, he only took a drink when I offered him one, he effectively did not even drink alcohol. His main activity was shopping, and he loved to holiday abroad, with me and/or his monster Chinese wife (despite her cruelty, he adored her).

    Real life is very complex, isn't it?

    Thanks also, for stitching all of those submissions together for me. I cannot drive this website very well.

    Cheers,

    Gerry

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