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    jlarsen's Avatar
    jlarsen Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
    New Member
     
    #1

    May 19, 2009, 11:49 AM
    Water Meter Malfunction
    Help! Our private water company says we used 240,000 gallons of water in 30 days. We live in Phoenix, AZ (desert). There's no standing water on the ground, plumbers have verified we don't have any leaks, the meter was read correctly, we were home (just the 2 of us) all month so no-one stole the water. Is it possible for a 15 year old meter to just advance 240,000 gallons when the water did not go through the meter? The water company is replacing a lot of pipes in the streets on their side of the meter. Could all this construction cause our meter to malfunction? We need help. The bill is almost $900. Thanks
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #2

    May 19, 2009, 12:01 PM

    At that rate the meter would have to have 5.5 gallons of water going through it ever minute of every hour for 24 hours a day for the entire 30 days. That is close to the amount of water that will go through a full 3/4 inch pipe at the city water pressure rate.

    I think you will get a hugh reduction on your bill, if not ask that they get that meter tested and show you the results.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #3

    May 19, 2009, 12:19 PM

    The water meter is fine. The problem is that the water meter counts air as water.

    The utility has to pro-rate your water bill based on previous use. The construction is the likely cause of the problem.

    There are air eliminators that can be installed before the meter.

    PS: Hire a smarter plumber
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
    Senior Plumbing Expert
     
    #4

    May 19, 2009, 01:52 PM
    I'm definitely confused here all...

    Wouldn't a faucet or pipe have to be open past the meter for the meter to register water or air...especially 240,000 gallons? This would mean that a faucet or pipe was open for a lonnnggg time in jlarsen's house letting air out from the system..? I don't know guys... but I'm not buying it... ;)

    How often did you have to go without water as they worked on these pipe jlarsen? Did they drain the pipes down from your house by opening faucets in the house and then close them and purge the lines after they worked on the lines?

    Although I am sure that you would have noticed this... I wonder if it is possible that the water department hooked onto your outside faucet and then ran hoses to feed other neighbors or equipment or something else weird like that. I have seen this done many times in my area, but they usually drop the meter for time of construction and then bill using average usage per month. I know this is far-fetched, but I just can't think of anything else that makes sense here.

    After that I want to know what the water department thinks about the figure letmetellu posted... 5.5 g.p.m every minute of every day for 24 hours a day for 30 days..?

    Let us know more here...

    MARK
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
    Home Repair & Remodeling Expert
     
    #5

    May 19, 2009, 01:57 PM

    If I were to cut my main supply I'd be lucky to get 5.5 gpm for 30 days.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #6

    May 20, 2009, 06:56 AM
    My bet's on a meter malfunction. My meter gave me a excessive reading one month.
    I complained and had them replace the meter. The next months reading was normal.
    I then took the readings back into the Water Department and demanded a adjustments on my water bill. They didn't like it but the numbers don't lie. So you did call and have them install a new meter and check the old one out didn't you?
    Let's hear back from you. Tom
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #7

    May 20, 2009, 07:39 AM

    Water company usually knows your Average per day, per Month. If you call them and present them with the problem, they should adjust your water bill to your Average.

    In my area, DWP adjusts your bill even when you had - let's say - break in water main on your property and as result, meter registered lots of water "usage" before the leak got discovered and fixed.
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
    Senior Plumbing Expert
     
    #8

    May 20, 2009, 07:42 AM
    Hey Milo... in my area they tell you... "if your meter measured it...you pay for it period (both water and then 3 times water = sewer)"... broken pipe, running toilets, floods or not!

    Nice to know some water companies can be reasonable... ;)

    Hopefully, Jlarsen's company is like yours!

    I'm thinkin' faulty meter as well, Tom!
    jlarsen's Avatar
    jlarsen Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
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    #9

    May 21, 2009, 06:58 AM
    Thanks for all the responses - the private water company says we have to pay the bill. Period! The meter was tested and it tested within allowable ranges. A new meter has been put on and it is accurate. Pretty frustrating that I'm having to prove what might have happened. I'm being told that it's almost impossible for a meter to surge ahead like this. Does anyone know about air going through the meter instead of water? Registering that much (240,000 gallons), wouldn't we have noticed air coming out of the faucets in the house? Regarding the construction - water pipes are breaking throughout the subdivision - the pipes that go from the main line under the street to the individual meters. The pipes have not burst directly in front of our house. Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the help. Oh, the local ABC news station came to the house yesterday and they're going to do a story on this.
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #10

    May 21, 2009, 07:52 AM

    Involvement of TV station may help you in this situation. I am sure your water company doesn't want to get bad publicity. You could also contact local Consumer Protection Agency who could look into this matter on your behalf. Let us know how it got resolved. Thank you. Milo
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #11

    May 21, 2009, 09:16 AM

    If that's the case and there are a lot of water mains breaking then I truly believe that you have a water issue.

    The first thing you need to do is use the leak detection feature of the meter. Observe the dial with no taps running or even overnight. That will show that there is no leak.

    The meter was checked for calibration, so that eliminates the meter.

    Through process of elimination combined with the knowledge that there have been lots of mains breaking, I still believe air is the problem.

    Have something similar to this EASB-JR Air Separator - Bell & Gossett world leader in supplying the Heating/Ventilating/Air Conditioning (HVAC) industry.

    Installed by the water company, before and after the meter.

    If they will not do that, then ask for two meters for a trial.
    Arranged as METER + SEPARATOR + METER

    A side note:

    Pipes running underground in the house after the meter can cause flows that you cannot see, but the leak detection feature (small dial) of the meter will see it.

    I know I'm disagreeing with all of the plumbing experts.

    This link is even better guys:

    http://www.arivalves.com/US/US_PDF/N...8/UsC-M040.pdf

    This is an interesting read http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publi...s_DWFSOM67.pdf

    In the sense that it states that water meters typically slow down as they age.

    It also defines some of the principles that the water meter operates.

    That might show how either air or pressure surges can cause eroneous readings.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #12

    May 21, 2009, 12:40 PM
    I truly believe that you have a water issue.
    KISS, I'll give you the reasons I don't think it's either a water or a air issure if you'll tell me why you think it is.
    1) 240,00 gallons of water in 30 days just got to surface somewhere so it can be seen and even if it didn't the pressure drop in the OPs house couldn't be ignored.
    2) Private water company sez, "ya gotta pay up" even they got to know that the monthly ruseage is way out of line. Now would you trust then when they said the meter wasn't at fault?
    3)Mark nailed it when he pointed out that if it were air all the faucets in the house would sound like one humongous fart when turned on. No complaints either about lost pressure, (hidden leak) or air in the lines, ( no flatulence complaints either).
    By the process of elimination, what does that leave?
    Your turn! Regards, Tom
    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
    Senior Plumbing Expert
     
    #13

    May 21, 2009, 12:43 PM
    KISS,

    I don't see you disagreeing here... just presenting another perspective and we always appreciate that!

    It is certainly possible that there could be a leak in an underground pipe... but as jlarsen said, they have had plumbers confirm no leak... so we had to assume that they looked at the red needle (if present) already... or at least you hope they did... huh? Maybe they don't have a meter with needle.. maybe it's a meter without that feature?

    Anyway, if there are any pipes that go underground after the meter jlarsen then my best I would have to figure for underground leak, too...

    But as far as air... I still say you would have to have a faucet (or some other valve) open for air (or water) to register at the meter.

    Finally, I also think it is possible that the water department hooked onto their house and maybe fed other houses while they were at work (everyday) and forgot to disconnect the meter... maybe that, too... hmmm..? I would at least present it as a possibility and check with the foreman running the crews at that time.. see if it's possible..?

    Otherwise... faulty meter... needs to be tested by others... tough one here guys!

    Just thinking aloud...

    MARK
    jlarsen's Avatar
    jlarsen Posts: 4, Reputation: 1
    New Member
     
    #14

    May 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

    Wow - I'm very impressed with all the dialog and help you-all are giving me. Thanks. I think Massplumber2008 sums it up "tough one here guys". To answer/confirm some issues - yes, the meter had the small triangular dial and it was not moving at all when we got this bill. We have a new meter now and everyday for 20 days now it's been registering 300-400 gallons-our normal usage. This, I think, confirms - no leak - 'cause a leak of this magnitude wouldn't just stop would it? We don't think the water co. or anyone else hooked up to our outside faucet. 240,000 gallons would take quite a while to load up and we're not gone that much and the neighbors would have noticed something odd. There's a lot of older retired people on our street. I've talked to Sensus, the manufacturer of the meter, and they have said it's possible the mechanical meter somehow advanced forward - it's very, very rare, but it's possible. Guys, that's the only thing I'm coming up with that makes any sense. Have any of you ever heard of this happening? If so, how do you convince a water company that is what happened? I'll keep you-all posted on the ABC news station and what they decide. Thanks again.
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,378, Reputation: 2280
    Home Repair & Remodeling Expert
     
    #15

    May 21, 2009, 02:20 PM

    In Chicago the larger newspaper has a "Whats your problem" column and intervene for problems like this. Call your paper too.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
    Eternal Plumber
     
    #16

    May 21, 2009, 03:51 PM
    Have any of you ever heard of this happening? If so, how do you convince a water company that is what happened?
    As I said in a earlier post.
    " My meter gave me a excessive reading one month.
    I complained and had them replace the meter. The next months reading was normal.
    I then took the readings back into the Water Department and demanded a adjustments on my water bill. They didn't like it but the numbers don't lie."
    Good luck, Tom
    mygirlsdad77's Avatar
    mygirlsdad77 Posts: 5,713, Reputation: 339
    Plumbing Expert
     
    #17

    May 21, 2009, 03:56 PM

    Interested to know how this turns out.
    KISS's Avatar
    KISS Posts: 12,510, Reputation: 839
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    #18

    May 21, 2009, 04:45 PM

    I believe the utility has meters checking on branches, 240,000 gals is a lot of water to miss, but if their main broke then all bets are off.

    Maybe the burst is that one rare event.

    The type of meter matters too. Just think of a paddle wheel and, what if, someone hit it with a large pressure burst of air. Paddle wheels just keep on spinning.

    At least the meter manufacturer recognizes that there is a chance of a rare event. That's good.

    The farting makes sense too.

    I guess we have rupture of main causing a pressure burst AND, I suppose, you would have to have a tap open at the same time.
    mygirlsdad77's Avatar
    mygirlsdad77 Posts: 5,713, Reputation: 339
    Plumbing Expert
     
    #19

    May 22, 2009, 03:46 PM

    Kiss brings up a good question... What type of meter do you have, and how does the department read it, do they read the actuall meter, or do they have a scanning device that reads a senser.
    LCOhio's Avatar
    LCOhio Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
    New Member
     
    #20

    Oct 6, 2010, 01:29 PM
    I live in Ohio and our city installed the Sensus water meters which use the scanning devices for reading usage about 2 years ago. I have now have had 2 incidents of unexplainable, large bills ($1,000 & $600). I am at my wits end and trying to work with our water department is useless. I have talked to Sensus who indicated it is possible that, since these new meters are electronic/magnetic devices - they could be affected by some type of outside interence. I would really like to know if anyone has been successful in proving that these meters are capable of malfunctioning. I'm wondering if I need to put a letter to the editor in our local paper asking for others who have had this problem to contact me - maybe a class action law suit is in order...

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