And you post to other people texts like "... just like your total lack of intelligence"

:D

The debate that is occurring is apples versus oranges.

Science is based on logic. Credibility is contingent on written words of proof. This is left-brained stuff, it's like math, lists. Procedures. Got that? Great.

Magic is a right-brained activity. Thinking in images, visualization of the desired outcome, is very difficult to document. Magical journals tell the story however. Recording what a spell was for, when it was done, can be used to record the results, or lack of them as well.

Your attacks sarnian, lead me to believe that the female, right-brained psyche frightens you. But then, I have no proof.

Yet you keep refusing to accept that magic can't be done over the internet and do do it for yourself. You want magic to be like it is on TV. You want me to say some cute nursery rhymes and expect to be a billionaire tomorrow or to fall in love with some super model. Well, you can keep watching TV because that's not how real magic works. You keep asking for proof and yet you won't understand that it CAN'T BE DONE OVER THE INTERNET. Once you accept that then maybe you should do a little reading and try some magic for yourself. After all, they say that the best experiences are your own.

HA! I'm looking for attention? This is coming from the person who randomly adds their two cents on a conversation that had nothing to do with them at all... yet I'm the one who needs attention. What I don't understand is if you don't believe in magic then you shouldn't have posted anything.

Thank you. But no matter what any of us say, Sarnian won't accept it. He seems to think that magic can be proven over the internet. Even if magic did work like it did on TV (like on Charmed or Buffy) and I casted one right now, how would Sarnian know? So still, he wouldn't get his proof. But as "scientific" as his mind is he doesn't understand that. Oh well.

Hmmm, with out reading anything, I'm going to say, that all depends on what you considre magic, magik, to be?

What you are saying about magic being a casting of a spell, the "like attracting like", is no different from, Preying to GOD/S, Meditation, Self-affrimation, and even the scientifically tested (evidence does suggest that the imagination can effect reality, but it's under investigation.) idea that our very imagination can have direct effect on the body and possibly the environment, though we are not moving at all.

In my understanding, "all are one, and one is all." - Led-Zeppelin Stairway to heaven.
These ideas are the same thing, just different words. "...A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet."- Juliet in the Tragity Rommeo + Juliet.

So, whether you call it, divine intervention, slef affirmation, self discovery, magic/ magik, or The power of imagination, it all does the same thing in the end. Brings us closer to our desired goals and intentions, it all does.

Peace and kindness to all.

Haha, scientific Proof? Can any one in fact prove that I have billions of organismes in my body?

Can any one show me that we are going around the sun? Yes I mean via the internet. And no not by referring me to some usuless journal, or posted theories. I want cold hard evidence in my hand. It's not possible to do is it? You'd have to take me to outer space and show me. Other wise you would have to teach me some hugely long mathamatical calutaion system.

Science is still only subjective, in that it's only true in the moment you test it. Things change.

The Center
Also
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=15528

This is exactly what I'm saying. But don't say it too loud in front of scientific people ( I won't say names) they'll just keep asking for PROOF PROOF PROOF. They want you to show them over the internet.

I guess you don't believe in gravity then.

I do believe in gravity, but if I didn't believe in it and I wanted it to be proven, I'd go and see for myself... unlike Sarnian who keeps asking for others to do it for him which just displays his laziness. I know gravity exists, I throw something up in the air, it comes back down. Gravity... wait... did I just conduct an experiment... ON MY OWN!! Omg omg omg, don't tell Sarnian... I should have asked you to do it for me.

I don't think he/she is being lazy. sarnian just wants scientific proof. It just makes more sense when things are proven with scientific facts. Even if you see it for yourself. Also we don't know how to conduct an experiment using magic so how are we going to know? I'm not saying that I don't believe you. I just want to know what you do exactly when you do magic.

NeedKarma I think the important part is that you have not done the research only taken aonthers word for it. I did say, "And no, not by refering me to some usuless journal, or posted theories." In other words, show me the mathamatical equations how they work and why it is that the sun is the center of the galaxy. And with out, using some one else's theories, make up the theory on your own.

Then show me how. That's what I was trying to get at, any one can go look up on a web site some one else's work, but I want to see it work for me, not siad that this is how it works, that is just some useless info, wasted words on a page really.

Can you reconstruct that theory with out looking at it, and prove it's true? :confused:

What is gravity, where does it come from? CAn you prove it's existence? With out taking form aother's theory, once again, recreate it but with out having read it prior to making it.

Sieriously, can you go from scratch, and write me a working model of how gravity works, with mathimatical equations, and important details that you discovered on your own?

If not, it's just hear say, subjective story tellings, of one's "belief", of how things work. Proof, is only relative in the situation it's used. Things change you know.

Um, yes I did spell Prey, and in Praying to GOD/S "wrong", and yes that is actually pretty funny.:p;)

But like I was saying, "all are one, and one is all." Led-Zeppelin Stairway to heaven.
Ever hear of Mitochondria? Cell Organelles: Mitochondria Since people of science seem so set on Proof, and seem to take other's words for it, here read learn. I don't know much about it and don't know if it's really true, but aparently they are like the fabled Midichlorines of the Star wars movies. Some say that George L. was not far off from them. We don't really know much about how these, Mitochondria react with our brains, so how do we know we can't control them and use "Jedi" like powers? We still know very little about life, and evenless about the nature of things... :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJYU...e=channel_page

Now to any one who noticed that I made a comment about "what would happen if you took one hemasphere out of a person's head?" There is a case where this has bin done, as far as I know any way. Judge for yourself, can a person live with half a brian?
YouTube - Brain Plasticity (Warning, its sad. Poor little girl. Show some RESPECT, please. She deserves that.)

So, how will this affect her, we don't really know, on account she had issues to begin with, and we can not compare her to "socially accepted Norms." She is a girl of her own class and with a massive reduction of her brain. It maybe that she keeps the mentaliy of a young girl, or maybe she is A savaunt (is that how you spell it?), with almost no capability in an opposite function. For example, one side of the brain, right we'll say, is usually responsible for more spacial tasks, and controls the left side of the body. This little girl looses that hemasphere of the brain, and relies entirely on her left hemaspfere to do both the jobs of the Left and right. How does the brain do it, well "cerebral relastate". Think of every part of your brain having a kind of plots of land where ideas, and other functions will take place. So everything on the right moves to the left, thus the probablity of the left side functioning shrinking is high; but not absolute. Remember, there is only so much room on the left side to take the rest of the right side's functions. Note, the fact that the brain can adapte like this, is called Nuero plasticity.
I'm sure I made mistakes, but the point is, that the world, exsistance is not really stable, there for, we can only really draw up conclutions of probability, not absolute. If you think anything is absolute, you are assuming Much... No?

Still we don't know why these things happen as they do, we just do. Kind of like Medications for a mental illness. We know how the brian/ body will react in general terms, but we don't know why really. It's a Trial and error process.

Yes one can. Just one drip of blood or a small snip of tissue under a microscope will be enough to prove that.

Yes one can, but that depends on your willingness to accept that proof. A couple of (officially confirmed as true) photo's of the solar system will do. Or if you give it a year, just the sun seemingly moving between the 2 tropics proves that.

Science is in it's core nothing more than explaining everything we see around us, and if possible complete with valid support. That 'things change' is no reason to suggest that previous(ly) things are no longer true.
The only real totally subjective thinking is (in belief, in gods, in magic, or in fill-in whatever suits you). Any belief is without valid support. It is the essence of belief, and therefore subject to fair questioning of it's validity.

I do not claim anything, you do. You claim, so it is up to you to prove your claim.
I am not lazy. Besides that : as I do not claim anything, it is not up to me to prove either in favor or against magic. Either you can not prove your invalid claims, or you are too lazy to prove your claim that magic is real.
It does not require a degree in rocket science to understand that.

Ok, the whole prove it part, you missed the idea. I have never actually used a microscope on myself nor any one else, I've seen pictures that claim these things, but how do I know they are true. I do of course leave their ability to be valid open, but until I get to find our for sure I can't simply trust one's words. I wanted some one to give me a working theory, they make themselves and prove, then to show me how it works. Other wise everything you show me is Subjective in my head imaginative evidence. In fact, everything we see is in our head and is amatter of interpretation, so yes I agree with you there.

Once again, Proof. I don't want it from some where on the net, I want some one to prove it by recreating the theory, but with out looking at it... See, you 'd have to figure it out on your own, then try explaining it to me... Other wise it's just here say.

Science is a product of Philosophy, an explaining or investigating of life. Every thing is apart of life, no? We are made of so many things, elements, chemicals, cells, bacteria, Mitochondria, etc. Just because we can reproduce the same out come 100% of the time, doesn't mean that there will be atime that it is prooven wrong. There for, it must be subjective. Only relevant in the moment it's being prooven. "Nothing is forever." See the paradox, if nothing is forever, then are we nothing, is everything nothing? :confused:

IF I pick up a book and it rests in my hand, palm up opened flat, am I touching the book, is it touching me?
Really, think about it, we never ever touch anything, there is always that small space between us and the other object. The reason we feel is due to transference of energy.

So how can we say we know anything 100%. Objective Supporting Evidence seems to be only a conclution of probability...

No?

That you have never done that does not mean it is not true. It is up to you to correct yourself on that point, if you really want to know if that is true or not. If you want you can obtain the evidence you were referring to, though only in the way it is available.
That the evidence may not be 100% to your specifications does not qualify it's validity.

The entire topic discussion here has been related to the wild claim that magic is real.
However that is a claim which can not be supported by any valid evidence, so it is a belief.

I posted an earlier response to what I usually do when I cast spells. However, I'm no where near an authority on Wiccan/Ceremonial magic so I suggest looking for rituals on the internet or take an hour or so and go to Borders or Barnes & Noble and flip through a book or two there. They will detail in explicit content on how to do magic.