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    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Jan 2, 2009, 09:53 AM
    Install second floor bathroom drain and vent
    Hello,

    I am taking on the challenge of installing a toilet and sink on the second level of my house and wanted to confirm the best options for sewage lines. It's an older house and I'll be causing quite a bit of damage to existing walls/floors so want the best solution before I go ahead with this. I also believe the current plumbing is not correct so if I'm getting into it I figure I could put everything to right at the same time.

    Attached is a sketch; the red pipes are the proposed new bathroom and black is the current drain system. From what I've read, there is a wet vent option which I think this is similar to but feel there's a reason I can't do this but I don't know why.

    I'll leave it at that and look forward to your suggestions.

    Thanks in advance,
    Andrew


    21boat's Avatar
    21boat Posts: 2,441, Reputation: 212
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    #2

    Jan 2, 2009, 10:21 AM

    The old days was wet vents but its really a no no for good reasons. What you have drawn is a wet vent.
    Your drawing is perfect for the sink draining and venting. You should add another 2" line off the 3' main and send that to old vent above to vent W.C
    Note when you tie in the new sink Y it in the three for same direction of flow

    Signer 21 boat

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    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Jan 2, 2009, 12:08 PM
    Thanks Signer 21 Boat,

    You mentioned wet vents are not the best choice - can you explain why and what should be done instead? I didn't know if the issue would be the upstairs flooding the lower level as it runs past.

    Also, the lower level lacks the venting I believe is required. What are the issues that can arise from the current installation?

    Regards,
    Andrew
    21boat's Avatar
    21boat Posts: 2,441, Reputation: 212
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    #4

    Jan 2, 2009, 01:29 PM
    Wet venting can create slow drainage lines especially on toilets where solids are involved. Sinks draining slow clog up the traps more. The lower level is vented on the 3" stack pipe and that helps it. The drainage lines will vacuum with all things running at once. Scenario washing machine is pumping water and now the dishwasher is going and some one is taking a shower and the toilet get flushed on the third floor. This can easily gamm things up.
    In the old days kit sink bath sink bath tub toilet washing machine.

    New days washing machine, down stairs toilet. Kit dishwasher, kit sink. Half bath, bath tub, bath sink, bath toilet master bath sink, master sink, master toilet.
    This last sentences is why not to wet vent.
    Your system is at its max that's why the new bath has to be vented.
    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Jan 2, 2009, 03:03 PM
    You've been very helpful and I appreciate your time to explain.

    If you have a moment I have more questions; is there a distance from the stack a toilet should be? The new toilet will be about 24" from the stack making it tight to fit connections for both the sink drain and the vent. (I've added the extra vent to the drawing but it's not to scale.)

    Also, the upstairs is a lower roof and it would make my life easier if I am allowed to have a drop in the vent from the sink side? There wouldn't be a risk of water build up as it connects to the stack (see drawing). But, I don't want to cut corners if it's going to cause headaches in the future.




    Thanks again.
    21boat's Avatar
    21boat Posts: 2,441, Reputation: 212
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    #6

    Jan 2, 2009, 03:13 PM

    Yes there is a set distance for a vent on a closet flange it has to be vented within 5 feet of the flange. Your drawing Looks good to vent the toilet. You can wiggle the vents as much as you want. The basic here A VENT must drain like a drainage sewer line. And as long as its 48" above the sink traps you can tie in at that level so slope away Looks good.

    Signed 21 boat

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    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
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    #7

    Jan 2, 2009, 04:28 PM
    21boat...

    Got to disagree with you on the wet venting...

    I've been wet venting my plumbing fixtures when allowed for over 26 years now... all throughout New England area... never had more issues when compared to individually vented systems..? My guess is that wet venting is not allowed in your area..yes?

    I know Tom has been wet venting for almost 50 years. I will agree that individual vents are nice, but wet vents have their place as well.

    When it comes to a lavatory that only requires an 1.5" drain and it is increased to 2" for wet vent for toilet then I think wet vent is great here!

    Agledhill... check to see if wet venting of plumbing fixtures is allowed in your area... just call plumbing inspector and ask him... let us know.. ok?

    Thanks guys...

    MARK
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #8

    Jan 2, 2009, 04:43 PM
    Wet venting can create slow drainage lines especially on toilets where solids are involved. Sinks draining slow clog up the traps more
    I have to disagree with 21 boat on wet vents. The plumbers and designers have put down thousands of wet vented bathrooms in my area over the decades with none of the problems that you describe. Andrew, unless you live in a area, such as the West Coast under UPC you may wet vent your fixtures. In my area the vent to the right is overkill and really doesn't add to any venting issue.
    The drainage lines will vacuum with all things running at once. Scenario washing machine is pumping water and now the dishwasher is going and some one is taking a shower and the toilet get flushed on the third floor. This can easily gamm things up.
    Ahh! The old, if every fixture in the house is drained at the same time. How often, in your house, is every fixture flushed, operated and drained all in the same instant? Let's get real here. Wet vents work! No question there.
    How we install a bathroom in my area is toilet connects to the stack. Lavatory connects to the toilet drain line and wet vents it with the lav vent through roof. If you have room for a shower enclosure then the shower drain will connect to the lavatory drain where it will be wet vented also. I can't count the number of units we have piped like that with no call backs. Of course if the downstairs fixtures drain into the same stack the upper fixtures use then the downstairs fixtures will have to be vented. But you would have to vent them anyhow if you wish to use the stack for the upper bath. It may be you will be allowed to use AAVs in place of normal vents downstairs. More questions? Click on back. Tom
    21boat's Avatar
    21boat Posts: 2,441, Reputation: 212
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    #9

    Jan 2, 2009, 05:14 PM
    Wet venting here not allowed for a 20 years or so. I think it because of our very old home and all S traps and under size black iron vents. My city is a fanatic about sewer gas and went vent may suck a trap out IE sewer gas. Here the flange has to have a detected 2" vent. I could not count the chase ways and soffits we build for venting. They also don't allow the cheater vents you can tuck up under a vanity to help S traps out. You can get them here in the big box stores but don't get caught putting one in. when the suburbs was going CPVC the city wouldn't allow it and us contractors years to get them to approve it and then it was single dwelling only. The other was if a home was made into two 2 fl apartments had to now be 3' iron no hub and fire caulked. The schedule 40 DWV PVC is considered a fire chase to second floor Nothing against the Mennonites and Germans here but it's a Tiff town for change
    Well I was in a different ocean I see
    Thanks Massplummer and Speedball Well I was apparently off for another towns
    At least I skewed it in the right direction and over did in a good way no chance of failure for intended use.
    Thanks for overseaing my post
    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Jan 3, 2009, 09:36 AM
    Thanks again guys... now I am a little more uncertain so have reposted the complete picture of my current plumbing in black and proposed/suggested in red. (I see the site updates the picture from the original so I won't add again to this response, see original post)

    Wet venting appears to be allowed but with conditions which I am having trouble understanding. I'll post the page from the code book for reference. I've also shown the approximate distance of fixtures as the upper bath will be directly above the lower and I'm not sure if this changes things.

    I appreciate it's a lot of work and not easy but do want to complete the job correctly.

    And again, thanks for all your input.

    Andrew

    massplumber2008's Avatar
    massplumber2008 Posts: 12,832, Reputation: 1212
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    #11

    Jan 3, 2009, 09:50 AM
    Agledhill...

    You're all set here, Andrew.

    You can wet vent the toilet with a 2" wet vent that will pick up the lavatory...just like you have drawn...EXCEPT remove the extra 2" vent.

    See my copy of your pic. Below. Be sure to use a 3"x2" WYE fitting off the 3" drain line to toilet and also be sure to roll the fitting above the center line just a bit...OK??

    All pipes pitch at 1/4" per foot. Vent pipes also pitch back TOWARD DRAIN at about 1/4" per foot.

    Let us know if need more here...

    MARK
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    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #12

    Jan 3, 2009, 10:41 AM

    Move that 2" toilet vent BEFORE sink drain attaches in front of the toilet and you should be fine. Leave all other above-the-floor vents the way they are.

    ( As far as the "legality" of wet vent goes (boat21 comment)... well, let's not open can of worms... again... :D )
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    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #13

    Jan 3, 2009, 10:44 AM

    Thanks Mark,

    The only issue I was trying to 'sneak' around was the upper vent is at ceiling level; in my 1.5 level home so there's no attic above and to get over the bathroom door and under the roof, my pipe would slope down towards the stack. I'll examine to figure the exact measurements to confirm.

    I did note the 1/4" rule and understand your comment about 'roll' for the WYE fitting. Thanks.

    Regards,
    Andrew
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #14

    Jan 3, 2009, 10:54 AM

    Before Marks comes back: If you have no ceiling than combine two new vents at 48" above the floor and run them directly through the roof...
    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #15

    Jan 4, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Hi again,

    I've been getting into the reno and found the current stack is very difficult to access but do have the space to run a second pipe from the new bathroom to the basement.

    What I am wondering is how that changes the venting requirements? I have updated the drawings to show changes.

    Thanks again,
    Andrew
    Milo Dolezal's Avatar
    Milo Dolezal Posts: 7,192, Reputation: 523
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    #16

    Jan 4, 2009, 11:48 AM

    It won't change too much: combine all new vents below the ceiling than run one pipe all the way above the roof.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #17

    Jan 4, 2009, 11:52 AM
    In my earlier post I said
    In my area the vent to the right is overkill and really doesn't add to any venting issue.
    and now even Milo agrees with me. Thanks Milo! Now, about those downstairs traps you've drawn in.(see image) All this chit-chat about the up stairs venting but I don't see a single word about the two "S traps to say nothing about not a single vent raising outta the first floor or basement. That leaves five unvented fixtures to say nothing about discharging a major fixture past unvented minor ones. I would also increase the drain lines on the first floor bath to 2" from 1 1/2" and If you plan on discharging the washer into the laundry sink I would certainly increase that to 2" also and for Gods sake vent the laundry sink along with everything else.
    agledhill's Avatar
    agledhill Posts: 7, Reputation: 1
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    #18

    Jan 4, 2009, 12:04 PM
    Ya, I figured the lower level was an issue. These old houses are such a pain sometimes.

    So, In order to vent the laundry I have to run a 2" pipe to the roof level? And your saying I should do same for sink, bath and kitchen?

    Andrew
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #19

    Jan 4, 2009, 04:54 PM
    So, In order to vent the laundry I have to run a 2" pipe to the roof level? And your saying I should do same for sink, bath and kitchen?
    If you want to stay within code you'll have to cut a vent in the laundry sink and change out those "S" traps for "P" traps. The laundry vent can be tied back to the first floor lavatory vent 6 or more inches over the flood rim and run up and tie(revent) back to the upstairs lavatory vent 6 or more inches over that lavatory flood rim. The kitchen vent will have to be run up to the attic and revent back to a existing roof vent.
    That's if you wish to bring your vhouse up to code. However, I'm a great believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it":. Has your drainage been working without any problems. Back in Wisconsin, where my father had his shop, there were plenty of older homes that did just fine , thank you, without the first vent, All had "S" traps.
    Will this job b e permitted and inspected? Regards, Tom

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