As Valinor's Sorrow pointed out, such an opinion requires that we reject parts of the Bible we choose to disagree with. Those of us who accept the whole Bible as God's word are not free to pick and choose add delete or otherwise blatantly msinterpret for or own convenience.
Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I feel that Valinor at least admits that he isn't relying on the Bible as his final authority. In contrast, to do as Valinor does and to say that one depends on the Bible as his final authority is irrational and some might even dare to call it hypocritical.
BTW
I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?
But of course here we probably will draw the line won't we?
It's when we are told by the Bible that God draws the line that irks us.
But the truth of the matter is that some people don't deserve to be forgiven, and never will deserve to be forgiven because they prefer sin. This is a very basic Christian biblical doctrine and ignorance of it only shows that we need to become more conversant with the Bible.
Philippians 3:18-20 (New King James Version)
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
I don't think there is a circumstance when you shouldn't forgive. I thought God commanded us to forgive others as He forgives us?
Sometimes I think it's up to God to forgive certain injustices. What happens when (God forbid) your brother gets murdered and his case goes in the cold file.
Do you think you would feel sorry for people then? for evil people? Need to forgive them? WHEN they get the lethal dose, and the family's there THAT'S when they will probably forgive them.
I'm thankful I don't have anyone to forgive at this time.
I'm not saying that people don't deserve to be punished but from a personal point of view I don't think you can hold on to the pain, etc and truely begin to heal if you don't forgive. I think you can start to heal, but to be healed, I believe forgiveness may play a part. I don't think you can forgive when someone else wants you to, but you do it on your own time.
I believe that you must answer for what you have done on earth and in the afterlife. We all make choices and we have to live with the consequences. When we have to answer to God for them, He will decide whether or not He forgives us. This takes me to the multiple degrees of heaven that I believe in which is another topic.
I guess I believe that it is healthy for our spirit to forgive the deserving. If someone is going to continue to hurt you, you are right, they don't deserve your forgiveness. I think though if through our healing we come to the point we can forgive then we should.
If I were to continue to hurt someone I would not be worthy of forgiveness until my actions had changed and I was sincere in my heart.
Starman, I will have to read a little more into your link.
I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?
No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this.
This is why I was so careful to seperate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.
By being seperate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it. Here is how I do it: the action may be wrong, but I am not sure the person is. I am very much of the camp "hate the sin but love the sinner". I view it as they are making a terrible mistake. A mistake they don't know they are making or so far refuse to acknowlege. A mistake they are willing to make again and again, even. But none the less, a mistake. I do know what mistakes are like.
They are sick and seem trapped in a sickness I confess I don't fully understand even with the incredible front row seat I have had. There are a great number of books written about this and the best one, I think, is People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck, a very religious man in his own right.
Most importantly I don't know what happens when they meet with God. Maybe they repent in a flash of understanding and remorse so huge it would shock me. Maybe not. I do know what repenting and remorse are like. But I clearly won't be privy to that. So I don't know what is truly in their hearts and in not knowing, I realised I needed to default to the side of forgiveness, just in case. I stay out of the judgement of "deserve" or not as it pertains to the whole person. Not my job!
But that doesn't stop me from having thoughts about whether an action is wrong or not, not in the slightest. In fact, I have lots of opinions about which actions may be right or wrong (as you have probably noticed LOL) Nor does it stop me from deciding if someone is trustworthy or not either, by the evidence of those actions. That is my job! To take care of me and not be exposed to harm.
So please don't count me among those who would let slide anything destructive or sanction releasing dangerous people. I am 100% for personal accountiblity for every single thing each of us does. I would have consequences match the crime but it would really be more like conditions matching the sickness. And that would call for prison too.
It may seem odd that forgiveness is needed for someone who actions were so wrong it sent them to prison, but I would ask you this, if not for them, then for who? The one who forgives. Anything less and I think you are attempting to play God.
PS - I have compiled these ideas from a great many books, some of which are religious texts. Sorry this is so long but its hard to explain shortened.
Now you can see why I was so interested in some of your ideas, Starman - it is a great discussion that I hope you are enjoying as much as I am.
When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them b/c they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?
VS-When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them b/c they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?
Thank you for the permission Pumpkin....
Of course you love them, but you don't forgive them because they are "so far gone". You forgive them because they are making a mistake, they are caught in a sickness called addiction and you need the release. And you don't know how it will turn out. But in the meantime, yes all they think about is their next fix. It is what addicts do... until they hit bottom and seek help. I know about this because I work in the recovery profession. That is the profession for which I traded in my graphic design career a decade ago.
Now, speaking of "so far gone" I would like you to know that I believe as long as they are alive, there is hope it will turn out differently. But again meanwhile you need to protect yourself against them since an active addict is capable of great harm. Sounds like you know that part already so I am relieved you do. It is tough loving someone you can't trust, I know.
You do not have to "watch" either, especially if its in any way pulling you down to some unsafe place emotionally. You can turn them over to the care of God and keep a spiritually safe distance, for your sake. And talk about the pain with friends who understand. If you think you don't have any friends like that specifically, well then know that I am one here and there are undoubtedly others too! More would be found at your local Al-Anon, if your area has that. I hope this helps. (hug)
I am really glad you shared that and you are not alone
No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this.
This is why I was so careful to separate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.
By being separate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it.
I only said that God doesn't always forgive and am being understood as saying that we should not forgive and that we should set ourselves up as judges. Well, I agree with you that only God determines our destiny because he alone can read the heart. So the scripture I cited was meant only to support the fact that God doesn't always forgive. The other conclusions are just based on a misunderstanding of what my purpose was.
BTW
Armageddon proves that God doesn't always forgive.
I agree with Valinors in that even when we forgive it may be essential for us to "protect" ourselves.
I'd like to add to what VS and pumpkin were saying. I think you must know something is a sin for you to be held accountable. There are many examples of parents passing on their perverted thoughts of racism and prejudices. Humans for the most part only know what they are taught. Most of the rest is pure instinct. If one does not know whether by ignorance, mental inabilities, addictions, etc then I'm not sure they will be held accountable. This is why I believe God will be the judge. Only He knows for sure anyone's knowledge and mental state. Only He can judge.
I don't think that by us forgiving we are being judges. I think judging means deciding guilt and punishment. I believe for the most part we can tell if we have been wrong or done wrong. We do not get to hand out the punishments personally. Maybe it does fall to a group of peers and maybe that is wrong, but so is chaos which would occur if we did nothing to keep criminals at bay.
Then there is the destruction of the people because of the flood. Were they not warned? Are we not warned about Armageddon? We have to take responsibility. We are not perfect, but good people, and good people do get hurt.
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