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GLEBUS75 · May 5, 2007, 05:39 PM

Hi, all.

Check engine light just came on on my Civic and Autozone guy tested it and told me it showed misfire error code.
Car acted a little weird on start since I bought it a month ago, especially in the mornings and after it sat for a while: looked like engine was either flooded, or it worked on 2 or 3 cylinders, I heard knocking in the right part of the engine. A lot of white smoke came out of the muffler. But it managed to start after 15-20 seconds and pick up RPMs, knocking disappeared. Car runs great when hot, no problem at all, RPMs are pretty stable, no white/black smoke.
I thought it was ICM (ignitor), but then I read one posting saying that "no spark and fluctuating RPMs are characteristics of bad ICM". I got spark, though.

Car has 127,000 miles, when I bought it I changed fuel and air filters, oil, spark plugs and ignition wires.

1.6 engine, no V-tec.

Can someone lend me a good advice?

Thanks!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 5, 2007, 05:48 PM

A misfire code is often a sign that spark plugs (NGK only) and/or coil needs replacing. I normally recommend replacing igniters and coils at 120,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes first. These are problematic components on Hondas, along with main relays. You should also consider replacing the rotor and distributor cap, if you haven't already.

White smoke is often an indication of antifreeze being burned. You may have a warped head or blown head gasket. Run a compression check on each cylinder and observe how the pressure builds.

GLEBUS75 · May 5, 2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

A misfire code is often a sign that spark plugs (NGK only) and/or coil needs replacing. I normally recommend replacing igniters and coils at 120,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes first. These are problematic components on Hondas, along with main relays. You should also consider replacing the rotor and distributor cap, if you haven't already.

White smoke is often an indication of antifreeze being burned. You may have a warped head or blown head gasket. Run a compression check on each cylinder and observe how the pressure builds.

Thanks, txgreasemonkey! I will replace ignitor and coil. Do you have to take off distributor off the engine to replace ignitor? Ignitor seems inaccessible when distributor is on the engine.

Speaking of white smoke, it comes out only when the car is cold. Does it mean anything?

Thanks again.

TxGreaseMonkey · May 6, 2007, 06:36 AM

Here's how to replace the igniter and coil, without having to remove the distributor from the engine:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post265896

GLEBUS75 · May 10, 2007, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Here's how to replace the igniter and coil, without having to remove the distributor from the engine:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post265896

Hi, Meister txgreasemonkey!

Just wanted to come back to you and let you know my progress.

I decided to replace coil, dist. cap and rotor first - less expensive than to get also a new ignotor.

So last night I did that and it started remarkably good. I shut it down and restarted a couple of times with intervals about 10 min in between. Worked like a clock - no with smoke, no knocking in the engine. I thought I solved the problem (with your help, of course :-) )

But this morning it would not start at all!! What in the world could possibly happen overnight!? I smell gas out of the pipe, fuel pump buzzing, relays clicking, no MIL comes on. I have not checked if I have spark or not - was running to work in the morning.

Txgreasemonkey, any ideas on the possible cause? It is just weird...

Thanks a lot again!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 10, 2007, 08:04 AM

My feeling is that your igniter is not firing when the ECM wants it to. Therefore, I would replace the igniter. Check out the prices on RockAuto.com. Remember, you may have spark, but if the igniter doesn't fire when it's supposed to your car will start and run erratically. I think your igniter is breaking down.

The gas smell is because the spark plugs aren't firing. Try and substitute a known good igniter, just so you know that this is your problem. I keep a spare igniter with me in my car. This component is the cause of many problems people experience with cars today, regardless of make.

What specific no. was the original misfire code?

Many AutoZone stores can check igniters for free!

I don't really believe in doing this, but you could probably force your car to throw a code by trying to start it and have the starter motor crank away for 20 seconds.

GLEBUS75 · May 12, 2007, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

My feeling is that your igniter is not firing when the ECM wants it to. Therefore, I would replace the igniter. Check out the prices on RockAuto.com. Remember, you may have spark, but if the igniter doesn't fire when it's supposed to your car will start and run erratically. I think your igniter is breaking down.

The gas smell is because the spark plugs aren't firing. Try and substitute a known good igniter, just so you know that this is your problem. I keep a spare igniter with me in my car. This component is the cause of many problems people experience with cars today, regardless of make.

What specific no. was the original misfire code?

Many AutoZone stores can check igniters for free!

I don't really believe in doing this, but you could probably force your car to throw a code by trying to start it and have the starter motor crank away for 20 seconds.

Hi, txgreasemonkey!

I got a new Duralast ICM for $89 from Autozone (they could not test my old one cause they did could not find a power cord to a tester :D )

So I pu in a new one and no result - still won't start. I checked the spark - and I saw 2 or 3 weak sparks and then sparks disappeared. So I would say - no spark.
I tested all the fuses - they are good. Tested power to distributor - 12.3 V.

I put in my old ICM and coil back - same story. There is a chance, of course, that new ICM and new coil are no good, but I tested ICM with multi-meter and it showed significantly higher resistance between a pair of connectors (I don't remember which ones) than an old ICM. Both new and old coils tested OK on resistance.

I tried to start it with blue wire from ICM to tachometer disconnected (to test if tachometer is shorted) - no result.

Txgreasemonkey, I am almost desperate :-( I know there are ECM tests, but they seem complicated for me since I am not a mechanic or something.

Most frustrating about this is that it started great after I replaced coil. And next morning it was dead... :confused:

I will be grateful to any advice.

Thanks.

badpenny · May 12, 2007, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by GLEBUS75

Speaking of white smoke, it comes out only when the car is cold. does it mean anything?

This is a non-issue at this time. Condensation collects inside the exhaust system as the system cools down.

Keep an eye on it, if it is doing this when the system is hot, or completely warmed,(any other time other than startup) this is a sign of a bad headgasket, and needs to be replaced, before it does damage.

TxGreaseMonkey · May 12, 2007, 10:33 AM

Answer these 3 basic diagnostic questions for me:

1. When you turn the ignition switch to ON (not START), does the Check Engine Light (CEL) come on and then go off after 2 seconds? If not, the problem is with the ACG (ALT) (S) fuse, in the under-dash fuse/relay box; ECM (perform the K-Test, below); Main Relay; or the Ignition Switch. Perform tests in that order.

2. When the CEL goes out, do you hear and/or feel the Main Relay "click"? If not, repair or replace the Main Relay.

3. During the 2 second interval that the CEL is on, do you hear the fuel pump in the gas tank run? If not, check the fuel pump.

Answers:
1.
2.
3.

What was the original misfire code?
Have you tested the compression?

Next, I would run the K-Test below to test your ECM:

The K-Test: Remove the MAP Sensor connector and turn the ignition switch to ON (not start). Using a multimeter, check for 5 volts going between the MAP Sensor connector's reference wire (+) and ground. As you look at the connector, this is the socket on the right. Really press the black test lead into a cleaned main ECM ground on the thermostat housing. If the voltage is low, it's probably indicating ECM failure. Most failed ECMs will record a fraction of a volt.

GLEBUS75 · May 12, 2007, 11:01 AM

Txgreasemonkey,

Here's what's going on:

1. I turn the ignition ON
2. oil pressure, batt. And CEL light come on
3. after 2 second interval CEL goes off and main relay clicks

And YES, I hear the fuel pump running. And I also smell a lot of gas fumes out of the pipe after I crank it for some time.

Thanks.

EDIT: I don't know original misfire code - Autozone guy just told me it was 'misfire'.
I have not checked the pressure - don't have tools for that.

Can you please tell me where is MAP connector and thermostat? I have no clue - need to find Repair Manual, I guess...

Thank you!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 12, 2007, 11:34 AM

Ensure that the female connectors going to the ICM are tight. Also, ensure the main ECM ground on the thermostat housing is clean of all corrosion. If you do this, and you've installed a new ICM and coil, the only other thing it may be, in my mind, is a bad distributor. There may be a bad crankshaft position sensor, TDC sensor, or cylinder position sensor in the distributor; if so, you would have to replace the distributor housing. It may be time to try and force a code, by trying to start the car and let the starter motor crank for 20 seconds.

GLEBUS75 · May 12, 2007, 03:17 PM

Thanks, man! I will try to follow your advise. Can you tell me where is ECM main ground on the thermostat housing? Is it near ECM? Or near thermostat on the engine?

Thank you.

TxGreaseMonkey · May 12, 2007, 04:53 PM

The main ECM ground has 3 wires going to a solid brass connector, which is attached by a 10 mm bolt to the thermostat housing on the engine. Remove connector, clean with 240 grit abrasive cloth or steel wool, spray with WD-40 (or apply silicone dielectric grease), and reassemble.

TxGreaseMonkey · May 12, 2007, 05:18 PM

MAP Sensor is normally located on the firewall, just to the right of the fuel filter. It has a 3-P connector going to it. It also has a vacuum hose going to it from the throttle body. On your Civic, it may be located on top of the throttle body. Remove connector from sensor and run the K-Test.

GLEBUS75 · May 12, 2007, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

MAP Sensor is normally located on the firewall, just to the right of the fuel filter. It has a 3-P connector going to it. It also has a vacuum hose going to it from the throttle body. On your Civic, it may be located on top of the throttle body. Remove connector from sensor and run the K-Test.

Hi!

Cleaned ECM ground (was not that bad) and performed K-test. Got 4.83 V. Is that OK? Close to 5 V. I think I should not worry about ECM... :o

I did not mention first time, and I don't know if it matters, but when I replaced my coil first time, I confused 2 ignition wires EDIT: (from spark plugs to dictributor) and forgot to put in a leak cover into distributor. :rolleyes:

I reconnected ignition wires correctly and started it (leak cover was still off). Then I noticed leak cover is not in the distributor, and put it back in. Started great and next morning was dead as it is now...
Also noticed that 2 shifter position lights on the gauge assembly come on when I turn the ignition ON - "P" and "D". "D" goes out after about 5 sec. Is it normal? Can it prevent the car from starting if it is not normal?

What do you think?

Thanks!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 13, 2007, 12:02 PM

ECM looks fine, per K-Test. Not replacing the leak cover is not a biggy. Make sure all under-dash fuses are okay, when tested with a test light or multimeter. Particularly, check the ACG (ALT) (S) fuse. It may be fuse no. 24; however, check them all. Problem may be with sensors in the distributor or the MAP Sensor. Make sure all connectors in the distributor are clean and tight. Then, disconnect the BLU wire on the ICM, which goes to the tachometer, and try starting using the new coil and new ICM. If it does not start, force the ECM to throw a code, read it with a scan tool, and record it.

When you replaced the spark plugs, did you replace them with the exact NGK plugs that came in the car?

GLEBUS75 · May 13, 2007, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

ECM looks fine, per K-Test. Not replacing the leak cover is not a biggy. Make sure all under-dash fuses are okay, when tested with a test light or multimeter. Particularly, check the ACG (ALT) (S) fuse. It may be fuse no. 24; however, check them all. Problem may be with sensors in the distributor or the MAP Sensor. Make sure all connectors in the distributor are clean and tight. Then, disconnect the BLU wire on the ICM, which goes to the tachometer, and try starting using the new coil and new ICM. If it does not start, force the ECM to throw a code, read it with a scan tool, and record it.

When you replaced the spark plugs, did you replace them with the exact NGK plugs that came in the car?

All fuses (underhood and underdash) are good.
Connectors are good - clean and tight.

Tried to start with BLU wire off - won't start. Cranked for 20 seconds 2 times - CEL light did not come on. Does it mean there is no codes?

As for spark plugs , I don't have NGKs - got Autolite or something - checked by the catalog in the store if they fit my Honda. Do you think replacing spark plugs may solve the problem? It would be great :)

Thank you!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 13, 2007, 06:22 PM

Your ECM may have stored a code that only the scan tool can read. The CEL doesn't always go on for every possible code. It's possible the misfire code was a result of using Autolite plugs. I have never seen them work well in Hondas--they normally work best in Fords. Check the quality of spark for each plug. If you don't have a decent spark, then I suspect there's a problem with the MAP Sensor or one of the sensors inside the distributor. Most Honda distributor housings last between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. The bearing starts to go, because the grease wears out, and it's not long until the sensors are damaged.

Here's how to test for spark:

Remove a spark plug wire and attach it to a properly gapped spark plug, touch the plug to a convenient ground, and observe the spark, while someone cranks the engine. Look for a good, solid spark.

ICMs, coils, main relays, and distributor housings are weak links on many Hondas.

GLEBUS75 · May 15, 2007, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by txgreasemonkey

Your ECM may have stored a code that only the scan tool can read. The CEL doesn't always go on for every possible code. It's possible the misfire code was a result of using Autolite plugs. I have never seen them work well in Hondas--they normally work best in Fords. Check the quality of spark for each plug. If you don't have a decent spark, then I suspect there's a problem with the MAP Sensor or one of the sensors inside the distributor. Most Honda distributor housings last between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. The bearing starts to go, because the grease wears out, and it's not long until the sensors are damaged.

Here's how to test for spark:

Remove a spark plug wire and attach it to a properly gapped spark plug, touch the plug to a convenient ground, and observe the spark, while someone cranks the engine. Look for a good, solid spark.

ICMs, coils, main relays, and distributor housings are weak links on many Hondas.

Hi! I've got some progress, but the news are bad, I am afraid.

First of all, I put my old ICM back. New coil.
Cranked for 30 sec.
Scan tool did not read any codes. It just showed that pending code(s) is present and scan tool was not able to perform Catalyst Monitor and Oxygen Sensor Monitor tests.

Then pulled out old spark plugs. ALL OF THEM WHERE WET. One actually had some greenish fluid on it - a drop or two on the center electrode.

Tested spark with new NGK plug - I had spark, but is was not strong, I guess.

That was in the morning. I went to work and left engine with no plugs to dry out.

In the evening put in new NGK plugs. Cranked - won't start. Gas pedal all the way to the floor - IT STARTED!! LOTS OF WHITE SMOKE FIRST 3 MINUTES :-(, UNSIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF FLUID DRIPPING OUT OF THE EXHAUST PIPE.

I left it running for 5 min, shut it down, restarted well. Left it running longer - noticed it started to overheat :-( It did not do that before!! I touched both upper and lower hoses on the radiator - all hot. Shut engine down to avoid overheating.

Here are my thoughts. Previous owner hit the car in the front and replaced radiator. I believe they drove the car without coolant and overheated it before they replaced radiator. And now I guess all the coolant that was in there burned out through the cylinders ( bad gasket, maybe) and it is overheating.

Coolant in the cylinders was probably the reason it had a rough start in the first place and gave misfire code. There is no codes now though. At least for now.

I will get compression tester tomorrow and see what it shows. What should it be on Civics?

Any ideas? Thank you!

TxGreaseMonkey · May 15, 2007, 07:37 PM

Typical cylinder compression pressures are:

Normal 184 psi
Minimum 135 psi
Max. variation between cylinders 28 psi

You really should get a Haynes Manual for your year Civic and check the pressures.

Like we suspected early on, because of the white smoke, the head likely needs machining and the gasket replaced. Hopefully, the valves are OK. This is a job best left to Honda.