[BuriedThrice]

I'm in a frustrating spot. To get you to understand where I'm coming from I have to add as much detail as possible in my story. Please try and stick with it if you plan to give me feedback. I could really use help with this.

A short background:
I met a girl, (we'll call her) Lulu, while traveling out west in the summer of 2011. She was very cool and we hit it off immediately. We only hung out for three days on that trip. Six months after that trip, however, I began attending college. It turns out she goes to the same small liberal arts college. We got to talking and got really close that first semester. By the end of the semester we had been getting physical and gradually we began to feel things for each other. We talked a lot over that summer (I started school in January and it ended in May) and we got even closer, sending each other essay length emails back and forth, sharing music and movie recommendations and personal stories.

That summer I did some more traveling and there were some personal conflicts arising within me that I was trying to deal with. I spent some time volunteering on a farm out west and I did a lot of thinking about my potential relationship with her. I thought to myself that maybe her and I should slow down. Her and I had only had a week together before summer break began and so I thought that we should get back to school and feel things out a little bit before we decided to commit to something more serious. (As a philosophy major) I needed to know certainly what my feelings were for her. Turns out she was under the assumption that we were already official from the moment that we had been physical despite me having told her after our first time that I wasn't necessarily looking for something.

Here is where the mess begins:
Upon returning for the next semester her and I were on the rocks. She was devastated by my decision to slow down and feel it out. She believed we were well past that and didn't need the time to think about anything. I knew certainly how I felt for her as I friend at the time and I didn't want to do anything that would ruin that relationship. Around this time I begin talking to a new dorm resident, (we'll call him) Mike. He and I hit it off. We'd play ping-pong together, rag on each other, watch movies and play video games. We even had similar tastes in music. He seemed pretty cool. Eventually he started hanging out with my group of friends and was always knocking on my door to hang out. However, it didn't take long for me to notice tension between Mike and Lulu. Around that time, my best friend from home came to visit and he also thought their tension was weird. From what I knew, she had been giving him private massages because he had a shoulder injury and her job on campus is a bodyworker for athletes (Mike played basketball).

Over fall break he came into my room one afternoon to see what I was up to. We ended up getting into a conversation about girls. He apparently had been with A LOT of girls on campus and was giving me advice about how to get girls. I wasn't totally interested but I found it interesting. He then began to ask about Lulu and said he knew about our past. I immediately perked up and thought it was weird that he knew so much including details of our first encounters. Turns out, Lulu, told him almost everything, including our summer ordeal, over a massage. I didn't like that one bit. I like my privacy. He began to ask me where my relationship with Lulu stood and I gave him very brief answers. He started talking to me about how awesome her massages were and how she knows what she's doing with her hands. He asked me what I liked about her body and I told him. He agreed and said that she did have a nice body. Then he qualified all of this by saying, "Don't worry, I wouldn't do anything with a friend's girl." At this point I thought it was incredibly random of him to say that when my mind was nowhere in that ballpark. He ended the conversation by saying "And by the way, she told me not to tell you anything." That was the extent of our conversation that morning. But this was just the beginning.

As the semester progressed he began to slip little things in here and there about naked massages and happy endings and described an encounter with a women who sounded like Lulu. I began to feel extremely uncomfortable with Mike and Lulu in the same room. It always seemed that he was putting me down or leading me astray or messing with me psychologically and like she was enjoying being around him more than me. Mind you, this whole semester her and I are still attempting to start a relationship and it feels good, but it also feels hot and cold at times. I put up with this for a whole month and it might have gone on longer had I stayed sober the night before it all broke open.

The night before I confronted her, he and I were playing ping-pong when Lulu walked into the lounge. She sat down and Mike asked her if he could have "that same type of massage as last time." She replied, "you mean the one that didn't happen? maybe soon, but I don't know." That conversation made me uncomfortable so I left and made the excuse that I had homework to do. Instead, I went to go and smoke weed with a friend. I don't drink or smoke but I thought I would try it at least once in my life and this friend of mine wasn't coming back to campus next semester. I went for it. The feeling was weird but what it did for me was help me put together all the pieces of what Mike had been telling me and what Lulu had displaying to me in her interactions with him. SHE MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING WITH HIM DURING A MASSAGE.

The next day, I confronted her about it and she was shocked and all over the place. She denied anything happening. We talked for about 3-4 hours that night and she said she couldn't remember anything that happened with Mike and didn't understand why he was saying those things. Instead of answering my questions she stumbled over her words and continually affirmed her love for me. At one point she even accused me of cheating which I never have and she knows me better than that to think that I could. Her body language, her voice, and her words betrayed everything that she tried to convey. I didn't believe her and I wasn't about to continue my friendship with her.

It's true that she didn't technically cheat since we weren't together, but it's practically an unwritten rule that when you're pursuing something with someone you only have eyes for them. It shows your commitment to wanting something that will last. And really, had she been forthcoming with something happening, I probably could have taken time, gotten over it, and we'd have that all behind us. But she continually denied for weeks when questioned and couldn't give me details about the various massages she gave him. We were close to cementing a relationship and so this revelation rocked both our worlds.

Almost three weeks later, however, when I brought it up again (we were speaking less frequently now to take time and think about things) she said she would answer my questions. I asked her if she had done anything with Mike and what the massages were like; what did they do and what did they talk about. She told me that she massaged Mike twice, but couldn't remember if there was a third occasion. She told me that the massages were fully clothed and that she didn't work on his lower body, only his back and shoulders. She told me that she told him too much about our relationship because she thought that he and I were close and that she could trust him. She told me that their conversation eventually led to the topic of sex and during that conversation kept repeating to her that they were adults when she was hesitant about answering. She told me that he talked about how to bang girls and make them orgasm and she shared personal information about her sexual past and how she has never had an orgasm. This to me was crossing a line and I wasn't comfortable with it. She said it was all that happened and that the second massage consisted of less talking. Still, things didn't feel right. If it was this innocent I couldn't understand why it took her so long to tell me this. I had a feeling she was trying to make it seem like less happened so that we could move past it but it wasn't working for me.

She kept telling me that she thought we should go and talk to Mike together but I didn't think an encounter like that would be fruitful. If she had something to hide and he was in on it, then I wouldn't trust the answers I would get. So we never talked as a group and instead she approached him on her own one day to tell him that she didn't trust him and that they couldn't be friends anymore. Apparently, I was told that Mike's reaction was very bad having stormed out of the room they were in. But she didn't tell me the whole conversation they had and would add missing details later on in the relationship that would confirm that she was being dishonest about his reaction. A week after their talk, I saw Mike from afar and he began laughing at me.

She eventually stopped talking to Mike and ignored him whenever he was around. She deleted him from Facebook and told me that she didn't want to keep talking about the situation and that if we did, her and I would have to stop talking altogether. I decided that I would overlook my intuitions and suspicion and try a relationship with her. Throughout a five month relationship, I tried unsuccessfully to shake the thought that she was lying. I couldn't and currently we are in a bad place.

There are more details to add but this has gotten so long already and I'm not even sure if anyone will read this. But if you do, I could really use some advice. I want to trust her, but I can't and I feel like the only way I can is if she admits to something more having happened because I believe certainly that something did yet she continues to deny. I hate looking like a fool and everyone that I've told all this too believes that she did something and is trying to cover it up. Please help, I do love this girl as a friend and a confidant and I'd like her to be in my life in some way but right now I'm not sure that I can handle that.

[joypulv]

Oh please.
Why are you asking total strangers when you have already had feedback from people at school?
Where is this unwritten rule that says she has to be dedicated to you when you are 'technically not together?'
If you are so interested in her, why don't you trust her, and why do you put her through the wringer?
If you are so uncertain and even unwilling a lot of the time to be committed to the relationship, why do you have these one sided expectations?
If someone says they are telling the truth and you don't believe it, why do you keep going, like a torture camp, getting them to admit something whether it's true or not?
And last but not least, what the heck does '(As a philosophy major) I needed to know certainly what my feelings were for her.' mean?

Your story is much too long and too full of yourself, and it's all based on assumptions that no one can determine the truth of. So all of it is moot. You are building a tower on shifting sand.

[smkanand]

Are you really philosophy student? Because your level of maturity not showing that. The girl is over you. You better leave her and end this in proper way. And next time make it official after getting intimate with someone.

[BuriedThrice]

Oh please.
Why are you asking total strangers when you have already had feedback from people at school?
Where is this unwritten rule that says she has to be dedicated to you when you are 'technically not together?'
If you are so interested in her, why don't you trust her, and why do you put her through the wringer?
If you are so uncertain and even unwilling a lot of the time to be committed to the relationship, why do you have these one sided expectations?
If someone says they are telling the truth and you don't believe it, why do you keep going, like a torture camp, getting them to admit something whether it's true or not?
And last but not least, what the heck does '(As a philosophy major) I needed to know certainly what my feelings were for her.' mean?

Your story is much too long and too full of yourself, and it's all based on assumptions that no one can determine the truth of. So all of it is moot. You are building a tower on shifting sand.

As I've said, details are missing in this story. When I write '(As a philosophy major)', I mean to say that I try to know things certainly and investigate to seek out truthful conclusions. She is a highly emotional person who becomes easily attached and I am more skeptical and detached. Not having much time together physically and doing most of the formative work over email it made it hard for me to really feel as though we had grown together over the summer. Yes, I was learning more about this woman, but that was all. I wanted to know if by spending time with her physically I could see myself in a relationship with her. Turns out I could!

Second, the "unwritten rule" is really her opinion. My opinion is that it is okay to act outside of what you're pursuing. My issue with it is that if she holds that opinion but doesn't stick to it than she is dishonest and that is really the whole crux of the matter. Dishonesty. All I've done is present her with the evidence and what I'd like to see from her is an answer that supports that instead of her brushing it aside and telling me that she doesn't want to keep talking about it.

Also, you say this whole spiel is full of myself, but I disagree on that point as well for these reasons: this is a forum for people who need help in relationships. I am presenting to you the information in a way that helps you to better help me. The point is you are helping ME! Like therapy, the analysand is presenting information about a situation from their point of view and it's a process of discovery. This also means that it will be egotistical, in a benign sense of the word. This isn't narcissism, it's the information from my perspective and so it will always sound full of myself; I've tried to be courteous to Lulu throughout the situation but when you're dealing with someone as emotional as she is, it's hard to take full responsibility. I made it clear to her countless times throughout the ordeal that she didn't have to put up with me and she consistently made the choice to stay. There are mind games being played by everyone in this game. We all have an ego to protect.

[tickle]

I can see why she doesn't want to talk about it. I wouldn't want to talk about it either. You are too verbose, really!

Its like an in depth study of everything going on in your mind.

[odinn7]

Time to get over yourself. If her and Mike did something, you weren't official anyway... you told her that. So then I ask, why does it bother you so much? Only because you are worried about how you may look to others... that's why.

I could maybe give you a pass for going on like this if you two were dating and all but you told her that it wasn't happening. So IF she did something, it was when nothing was happening with you two. Let it go.

Honestly, I have no idea why she is even dealing with you at this point. Your interrogation over something like this would make me tell you to take a hike.

[Cat1864]

You talked to Mike, too, and probably told him more than you are saying or you think you did. He probably read you the same way you are attempting to read Lulu and he played you like Eric Clapton plays guitar. He did the same thing to Lulu. I think she may have wised up to his manipulations while you still haven't.

She wasn't your girlfriend. She was your friend and playmate. She owed you no explanations or details of any sort especially if the details you are seeking were made up by someone else. There is no way she can make you happy unless she lies.

She may be 'emotional'. But from what you say and your posts on here, you are the exact opposite and come across as detached and difficult to reach. I can believe you shared long emails. It would be a great way for you to study every word she wrote and put your own spin on her thoughts and meanings. The problem is you are doing that in real life too. It isn't her thoughts you are paying attention to but your own spin on them.

Since you don't trust her. Let her go. She deserves better treatment. You are spreading rumors about her every time you ask another person about what they think. Is that how you think friends should behave?

I looked at your other threads and realize you have been hurt in the past. Don't allow yourself to fall into the trap of looking for flaws in relationships and possible girlfriends. I think you need to be certain you have let go of the past before trying to form a new relationship.

[joypulv]

I want to trust her,
But I can't
And I feel like the only way I can
Is if she admits to something more having happened
Because I believe certainly that something did
Yet she continues to deny.

Please show that to your philosophy professors for a good laugh.
Unless you haven't studied logic yet. Surely you have.

[BuriedThrice]

Just so you all know. She did cheat on me. In fact, she has been two-timing me for the past year with Mike. She has denied any wrongdoing in the face of irrefutable evidence and became overdramatic and made the decision to stop talking to me completely. I believe there are deeper issues on her part that she doesn't care to own up to.

And to "joypulv", you seem well versed in logic and that's great for you, unfortunately in the face of intuition, logic fails to fully address the circumstances of the situation. This is just an update for those telling me that I have been in the wrong.

[talaniman]

No one said you were wrong about her, most of us questioned why you put yourself through this emotional drama and dragged it out for so long when clearly you should not even been in this situation.

Thanks for the update though, as you finally got to the bottom of it.

[smashb2003]

I guess trusting your gut did pay off. Until that last post I was actually completely on her side and thought "this guy didn't even want to be with her until he heard this, he has no right to put her through this". I'm starting to lose hope in people!