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toddbailey · Dec 14, 2012, 07:07 PM

I'm sort of caught between a rock and a hard spot. Dept of L&I won't provide any assistance on what is an acceptable installation until after they come out an inspect the installation.

How the heck can I do a installation that meets code requirements if the people doing the inspections won't or can't comment.

Any advice?

stanfortyman · Dec 15, 2012, 07:23 AM

It's not their job to teach you how to do the install. Their job is to check that it is done correctly once installed.

I for one like very much the fact that they will not teach you. It is not their place. You should know what you are doing before you even begin.
A PV install is not exactly a DIY project IMO.

toddbailey · Dec 15, 2012, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

It's not their job to teach you how to do the install. Their job is to check that it is done correctly once installed.

I for one like very much the fact that they will not teach you. It is not their place. You should know what you are doing before you even begin.
A PV install is not exactly a DIY project IMO.

I don't expect them to teach but at least they can share what they want to see in a install.

For example do they want a master cutoff switch, do they want a 4 ft, 6 or 8 ft grounding rod.

Really simple yes/no questions...

stanfortyman · Dec 15, 2012, 11:44 AM

for example do they want a master cutoff switch, do they want a 4 ft, 6 or 8 ft grounding rod.

Things like this are right in the code book.
If you are doing an install like this finding them should be no problem.

stanfortyman · Dec 15, 2012, 11:45 AM

Suggestion: Go out and look at professional PV installs in your area. Study them and determine whether you could do the same job.

toddbailey · Dec 15, 2012, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

Suggestion: Go out and look at professional PV installs in your area. Study them and determine whether you could do the same job.

Lol, I'm sure a home owners would love the idea of me driving up to their house with ladder in tow climbing on to the roof and walking around.

I just downloaded a newer copy of the nec book, I'll check it out and see if it provides the answers I'm looking for.

toddbailey · Dec 15, 2012, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by toddbailey

Lol, I'm sure a home owners would love the idea of me driving up to their house with ladder in tow climbing on to the roof and walking around.

I just downloaded a newer copy of the nec book, I'll check it out and see if it provides the answers I'm looking for.

After 45 minutes of reading the nec book I found the answer to the grounding rod question, 1 down a dozen more to go. Sheesh a simple yes/no answer from L&I would have saved almost an hour, but if that'sthe game they want to play so be it...

stanfortyman · Dec 15, 2012, 01:23 PM

Lol, I'm sure a home owners would love the idea of me driving up to their house with ladder in tow climbing on to the roof and walking around.

That was not my point. You can't tell much from looking at the panels.
I was talking about the equipment on the ground.

stanfortyman · Dec 15, 2012, 01:25 PM

Sheesh a simple yes/no answer from L&I would have saved almost an hour, but if that'sthe game they want to play so be it...

True, but I do not feel comfortable giving advice to someone who is IMO doing a job well over their head. Sorry. It's a personal thing.

Maybe someone else will be along. There are plenty of knowledgeable guys here.

toddbailey · Dec 15, 2012, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

True, but I do not feel comfortable giving advice to someone who is IMO doing a job well over their head. Sorry. It's a personal thing.

Maybe someone else will be along. There are plenty of knowledgeable guys here.

I think you underestimate my abilities. This project was a walk in the park compared to wiring in a genset transfer switch, a new load center, wiring a hot tub, and rv power connection or replacing a majority of the building wiring.

donf · Dec 15, 2012, 09:31 PM

Todd,

If you say so, it must be true. So I guess that makes the rest of us nothing more then bags of rocks. No insult to the bags intended.

Just curious, how did you get through all those projects with the NEC in hand and not know what AHJ stands for (Article 90)?

toddbailey · Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 PM

I am a strong believer that one needs to be self sufficient.

I'd rather learn how to do something than rely on (ie: pay) someone else.
A little knowledge goes a longway. I've also had a room mate 20 years ago who was a union electrician who taught me a lot. Between then and now I refer to a book titled "Wiring simplified" that has been quite helpful in determining wire sizes for a specific length and amp capacity. Only recently have I started reading the NEC code book, late at night and 5 pages later I'm fast a sleep. Not exactly a best seller that you can't put down...

In my opinion, contrary to popular belief it's not rocket science to running 3 or 4 wires through conduit. At least for your basic 120/240 vac single phase residential projects. Industral multi phase, hi voltage hi amperage stuff I'll leave for the professionals.

In any event our government agencies are heavily burdened with more important issues.
I didn't feel it necessary to invite them out just to tell me a project's wiring was acceptable.

Until now

The only reason I need to get the Country involved for this project is the installation must pass code inspection in order to have the utility company come out and install a net metering and qualify for regional production credits.

From my readings so far, I've been able to determine grounding requirements, a master cut-off switch at both panel level and at ground level. It also appears that I need a sub panel to house individual breakers for each branch.

Oh joy more money to spend...

stanfortyman · Dec 16, 2012, 06:11 AM

I think you underestimate my abilities.

A little knowledge goes a longway. I've also had a room mate 20 years ago who was a union electrician who taught me a lot. Between then and now I refer to a book titled "Wiring simplified" that has been quite helpful in determining wire sizes for a specific length and amp capacity. Only recently have I started reading the NEC code book, late at night and 5 pages later I'm fast a sleep. Not exactly a best seller that you can't put down...

Oh, OK. This changes everything. LOL

In my opinion, contrary to popular belief it's not rocket science to running 3 or 4 wires through conduit.

I think you underestimate the complexity of a proper PV install.

IMO the old "it's not rocket science" jab is funny at best and totally ignorant at worst. No, it's obviously not rocket science, but quite a bit of electrical wiring, even lowly residential, is a bit more complex than most lay folks know. At least to do a safe code complaint job.

toddbailey · Dec 16, 2012, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

Oh, OK. This changes everything. LOL

I think you underestimate the complexity of a proper PV install.

IMO the old "it's not rocket science" jab is funny at best and totally ignorant at worst. No, it's obviously not rocket science, but quite a bit of electrical wiring, even lowly residential, is a bit more complex than most lay folks know. At least to do a safe code complaint job.

My point exactly, It's one thing to run wires and another to do so and have the Inspector sign off on the project. The Nec2011 ebook provides a fair bit of information in areas I wouldn't have bothered with. L&I did offer to respond to any code related questions so like the TV show Jeopardy, I'll have to ask in a different manner.

Actually the rocket science quip is partly incorrect, rocket science has a lot to do with physics, as does design of power systems. It help to understand why you can't run 100 amps through a 14 gauge wire or why there is a voltage drop
Across a length of wire etc.

But in reality, a pv install is still connecting a branch circuit through a series of boxes that ultimately end up at the main breaker box.

My take is Nec is highly concerned with grounding and rightly so as 200 ft of alumium racking makes for an attractive lighting rod, and insuring the correct wire sizes are used, the system is properly fused, labeled, and in case of a fire event, the system can be de-energized quickly.

All these issues didn't really get a lot of attention until spending time reading.

Since grounding is a big concern, I wonder how much more it will cost to oversize the ground wiring, instead of 100 ft of #6 use #4 on the rack to earth connection and use #8 instead of #10 going from inverters trunk ground to main panel.

With the cost of copper these days, I'm sure a small fortune.
The main panel already has #4 as a ground (alumium), so any additional grounding can't hurt. At least in theory...

Will it make any difference and will the inspectors care?

shuntripper · Dec 16, 2012, 10:21 AM

Oversizing your ground isn't what inspectors are worried about, undersized is their concern, remember that the code is a set of minimum standards for a safe installation.

6AWG copper is the smallest you may use without a raceway (pipe)

My personal preference is all copper grounds, aluminum has maintenance issues

toddbailey · Dec 16, 2012, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by shuntripper

Oversizing your ground isn't what inspectors are worried about, undersized is their concern, remember that the code is a set of minimum standards for a safe installation.

6AWG copper is the smallest you may use without a raceway (pipe)

my personal preference is all copper grounds, aluminum has maintenance issues

The house uses all copper except for the main feed from the utility, conductors are apx 5/8 inch, the ground lead, also aluminum appears to be #4 or about 3/8. 200 amp service.

I'll be using all copper wiring, I'm not even sure you can buy small gauge alumium house wire any more.
At least I haven't seen it and wouldn't buy it even if I could

I'm also considering installing lighting rods. I'm sure the insurance company will love that idea.

shuntripper · Dec 16, 2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by toddbailey

The house uses all copper except for the main feed from the utility, conductors are apx 5/8 inch, the ground lead, also aluminum appears to be #4 or about 3/8. 200 amp service.

I'll be using all copper wiring, I'm not even sure you can buy small gauge alumium house wire any more.
At least I haven't seen it and wouldn't buy it even if I could

I'm also considering installing lighting rods. I'm sure the insurance company will love that idea.

Might be a good idea to ask the insurance company if lightning rods will help you at all, on the premium I mean.
I do know that there are code requirements for them also. Ask your local inspector which version they have adopted. By that I mean, some counties here are still on the 2004 NEC.

toddbailey · Dec 16, 2012, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by shuntripper

might be a good idea to ask the insurance company if lightning rods will help you at all, on the premium I mean.
I do know that there are code requirements for them also. Ask your local inspector which version they have adopted. By that I mean, some counties here are still on the 2004 NEC.

I'm more concerned about 'what if' rather than saving a few bucks a year.

I'm pretty sure the insurance carrier (foremost) is going to say "Oh that's nice, but no savings can be offered"

I'll shoot an email to L&I but I'm pretty sure Wa state/King Country is using the 2011 code book.