[Wondergirl]

today the talk is more about internal and external consistency of objects.

Who says that?

[arcura]

TUT317,
I do agree with most ofn what you said but I do have trouble with what you said thus, "today the talk is more about internal and external consistency of objects."
I have no idea what you are saying.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[TUT317]

Who says that?

Sorry Fred and Wondergirl, it's not talked about in theology. I should restrict my comments to theology. I will try and do so in the future.

Regards

Tut

[I Newton]

The Catholic Church is an ‘agreeable – but’ religion.

Yes God is one, BUT he is three (and this is not in the Bible)
Yes Jesus is the only way to salvation, BUT so is Mary (not in the Bible)
No you should not bow to images, BUT you can if it helps you concentrate (not in the Bible)
No you should not kill another person and especially not a brother, BUT if your brother lives in a country that your government does not agree with and goes to war against, you should certainly kill your brother (not in the Bible)
No you should not call priests by the title ‘father’, BUT it is okay if it is done out of respect (not in the Bible)

Wondergirl said
>Catholics AND Protestants don't believe the above<

What part do they not believe wondergirl?
That God is 3 in 1 ?
Salvation can be gained through Mary?
It is okay to bow to images?
It is okay to kill a fellow Catholic if you are at war with their country?
It is okay to call your priest father?

Which one exactly of the above do we Catholics not believe wondergirl?

Tut said
>I am just wondering if this philosophy/theology is part of any particular religious denomination?<

To which are you referring?

The fact that Jesus was the first of God’s creation, or that Jesus IS God?

[TUT317]

Tut said
>I am just wondering if this philosophy/theology is part of any particular religious denomination?<

To which are you referring?

The fact that Jesus was the first of God’s creation, or that Jesus IS God?

Hello Mr. Newton,

I'm not sure. But I know for sure that you are not Catholic and I am absolutely sure you are not Anglican. Are you some other institutionalised religion.

Usually theology is the product of some type religious tradition.

Regards


Tut

[I Newton]

This is a question I usually avoid as much as possible as it strats the abuse and spin off conversations that bog discussions down.

I was actually baptised Church of England for some strange reason, as the rest of my entire family are Catholic, and then of course I was raised Catholic and I do not even think I have set fut in a church of England church, but I could be wrong.

My problem started when I began studying the Bible and asking questions.

Rather than amswers and support from anyone at all I received looks down noses, abuse and bannishment from family gatherings.

What is really upsetting is none of them know anything of the Bible, they are just doing what Fr Slime Bag is telling them to do.

They have never bothered to pick up a Bible, my parents and Grand parents tell me they were alwys encouraged neve to bother with the Bible as it just causes problems.

So, virtually none of my family and friends know anything and yet they make out I am the one in the wrong for studying the Bible and have the nerve to question what our family has done for years.

Do my beliefs differ from other Catholics? You bet. I am not at all impressed with the conduct of the church fathers and how we are to just do as they tell us.

And I am really not impressed that they offer no teaching of the Bible at all except what the church says.

[TUT317]

"My problem started when I began studying the Bible and asking questions".

Fair enough, I don't see a problem with this. Now I can see where you are coming from.

Regards

Tut

[Wondergirl]

And I am really not impressed that they offer no teaching of the Bible at all except what the church says.

Your study of the Bible is personal and totally independent from any church body or religious group?

[I Newton]

I do not know if any church uses the King James Bible and the Strong's Concordance as their primary study guide, but as far as I know... no.

The Bible is too hard for me to read cover to cover, (Though I have now done it 3 times) so I started studying it by subject, I would look up all the words I thoght might be related to marriage and went to every scri[ture in the Bible that cobered the subject so as to gain a full understanding on what God requires on that matter.

I then studied every single subject I could think of.

I do like any encyclopedias I can get my hands on, so I can get a view on what they say on particualar subjects.

I only really started to learn amazing things when I started studying just the Bible.

I now have a passionate dislike for any organised religion.

You cannot trust anyone. You have to be on the watch to find out what it is they are truly after. Is it money, power, prestige, position, political, etc.

As you can imagine, all religious people do not appreciate my comments, and because I am, or used to be Catholic, they are the main ones I talk to.

It's a bit hard talking to Protestants when I do not fully understand what they do.

[classyT]

Well, I must admit, I did not know the Bible account stated that "they totally got what he was saying."

I find it interesting how we Catholics look at what enemies of Jesus deduced and argue that they were right.

Why is it we Catholics like what the Sanhedrin and Jews that wanted to kill Jesus believed?

Here is a little secret, the Bible does not say they were right.

I am not overly interested in rushing in to make the same mistakes as the Jews ... are you?

Jesu said "US" and "OUR" so he was not alone.

Was he speaking to God, or was he speaking to all the angels?

This is no way near 'proof' of a Triune god.

>he IS God. He was NEVER created<
So you say, but the Bible never says is God and it says he was begotten, so your opinion is contrary to the Bible.

>He said himself he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. I don't say I understand it..i just believe it. <
Saying he is the first and the last does not mean he is in fact God.

The best scripture you have is John 1:1 which contradicts itself straight away anyway, so it is not reliable.

Adam7's explanation is easy to understand because it is real
You do not understand your explanation because it is fake.

It is so fake there is no point in discussing it, none of you understand it, none of you can agree completely on what it is, and none of you can understand how Jesus is in subjection to God, is begotten, talks to God, etc etc etc

The belief is based purely on ancient pagan teachings that have been squeezed into the Bible where only a dozen or so scriptures can be twisted to support the idea.

I Newton,

I never once said the bible stated : "they totally got what he was saying."

When Jesus was speaking to these Jews and they were questioning how he could possibly know ABRAHAM... he said plain and simply: " Before Abraham was...I AM". It was their REACTION to this bold statement that sent them into a rage because the very next verse says that they picked up stones to stone him. Therefore, we can use our brains and figure it out. Jesus claims he knew abraham... these Jews question how?? And he tells them : before Abraham was even born.. I AM. The very next verse says: Then they took up stones to cast at him. John 5:59 It ain't rocket science.. they totally GOT what Jesus had said. I'm sorry if you don't.

While Jesus was on this earth, he was fully man, and fully God. He was our model. The bible says this: Phillipians 2: 5 Let this mind be in YOU which was also in Christ Jesus: ( Paul then goes on to explain what this mind is) verse 6. Who ( Jesus) being in the form of God (he is God)thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God: verse 7 BUT made himself of no reputation and took upon himsefl the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. 8. and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obdedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore GOD also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jeuss every knee should bow of things in heaven, and things in earth and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of the Father.

Why didn't Jesus think it was NOT robbery to be equal with God.( psst I'll give you a hint)... Because He was the person in the God head. The Father, Son, Holy spirit.

The reason he prayed to the Father, and obeyed the Father while he was a man on this earth is because THAT was his mission. He became a servant and died to save mankind. He was our model.

But he most definitely is equal with God the Father... and one day EVERY tongue will confess and every Knee will bow to Him... WHY? Because he is GOD.

As far as PROOF of anything... I have none. Other than the bible which is my ONLY authority. I have faith and I believe every word in it. If it contradicts itself then we are all sunk. For what should we even know what to believe? If some of it is untrue. It takes comparing scripture with scripture, it takes the Holy spriit and rightly dividing the word of truth to understand it. And if you need me to back my last paragraph up with the bible.. I can do that to. And that is all I have to say about THAT Mr. I Newton. :)

[dwashbur]

I do not know if any church uses the King James Bible and the Strong's Concordance as their primary study guide, but as far as I know ... no.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If that's all you use, then the things you've presented are perfect examples of how not to use a concordance.

[I Newton]

>I never once said the bible stated : "they totally got what he was saying."<
No you did not, but you make the assumption so positively that the Jews who tried to kill Jesus were right, and I was simply pointing out that the Bible assumes nothing of the sort.

>John 5:59 … he said plain and simply: " Before Abraham was...I AM". It was their REACTION to this bold statement that sent them into a rage … we can use our brains … It ain't rocket science.. they totally GOT what Jesus had said. I'm sorry if you don't.<
Yes, so you say.

I looked for John 5:59 and could not find it, so I looked at all of John 5. Let us look at what I did find, shall we.

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
(Were the Jews right here too, did Jesus break the Sabbath?)

Was it as you said the fact that he said he was before Abaraham that made them angry? Not at all; it was for breaking the Sabbath. And if you want to follow in their understanding, you too must believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Did Jesus correct them about breaking the Sabbath? By your reasoning then, the murderous Jews were right.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(Did Jesus say he was God?)

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(The murderous Jews who decided that Jesus broke the Sabbath certainly decided that Jesus was saying he was equal to God, and you do the same thing)

And you even go one step further than the murderous Jews, you claim that not only is he equal to God, you say he IS God.

Let’s imagine for a moment that Jesus was equal to God, there is still a big difference between being equal and being one and the same. You must be using a great deal of brain power on this one.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
(The Son can do nothing but what he SEES the Father do. How much brain power does it take to think that this means Jesus IS God?)

Just stop for a moment and think a bit.

Do you still hold fast that the murderous Jews were right?
Do you still hold fast to even going further than the Jews and claim it is easy to see that Jesus IS God?

Okay, let’s continue

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
(The Father loves the Son and SHOWS him what he is doing – Still think this proves Jesus IS God?)

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(The Father GIVES life to the Son – Still think this proves Jesus IS God?)

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Jesus can do nothing on his own, he does what he is told, and does not do what HE wants but what his Father wants – Still think this means Jesus IS God?)

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
(If Jesus was God he would be baring witness of himself so his witness would not be true)

So the Trinity is not true. In Jesus’ own words if he were God his witness would not be true because he would be witnessing about himself.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape
(If Jesus WAS God, they would have heard his voice and seen his shape)

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
(You believe your church, you do not believe the writings)

God gave Jesus life
God tells Jesus what to do
Jesus obeys God
Jesus can do nothing without God
God is Jesus’ Father
Jesus is God’s son
God highly exulted Jesus when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.
God gave Jesus a name higher than anyone else in heaven, when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.
God gave Jesus the Revelation, when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.

And after all this, what is your stand?
> But he most definitely is equal with God the Father... and one day EVERY tongue will confess and every Knee will bow to Him... WHY? Because he is GOD. <

You must have to use a great deal of brain power to believe what your church tells you.

>As far as PROOF of anything... I have none. Other than the bible which is my ONLY authority.<
That is very interesting.

>And if you need me to back my last paragraph up with the bible.. I can do that to. And that is all I have to say about THAT Mr. I Newton<
Good for you Classy T

Keep up the good work.

[Wondergirl]

So the Trinity is not true. In Jesus' own words if he were God his witness would not be true because he would be witnessing about himself.

The Trinity is a central doctrine of Christianity. In order for humankind to be rescued from eternal damnation, God had to put his divinity alongside humanity so that Jesus could be born as True God and True Man, live a perfect life, and die on the cross as our substitute. His Resurrection was the exclamation point at the end of the redemption story.

God gave Jesus life
God tells Jesus what to do
Jesus obeys God
Jesus can do nothing without God
God is Jesus' Father
Jesus is God's son

Yes, Jesus who was born in Bethlehem of a human mother. Yes, Jesus who put his divinity alongside being human.

God highly exulted Jesus when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.
God gave Jesus a name higher than anyone else in heaven, when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.
God gave Jesus the Revelation, when he was in heaven after he was on earth, so was no longer a man.

After the Resurrection, Jesus triumphantly reclaimed His position in Heaven, His position as one of the Trinity, His position as God.

[paraclete]

I don't think we were ever expected to understand the complex relationships of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or why they are both separate entities and one at the same time and I think it is too simplistic to say Jesus is the physical manifestation. Jesus existed alongside the Father from the beginning and took human form, I think this is perhaps the hardest part to understand.

[Wondergirl]

I don"t think we were ever expected to understand the complex relationships of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit or why they are both seperate entities and one at the same time and I think it is too simplistic to say Jesus is the physical manifestation. Jesus existed alongside the Father from the beginning and took human form, I think this is perhaps the hardest part to understand.

It's called a mystery. No one has ever been able to adequately understand or explain it. Some have said the Trinity is like an apple -- the core, the flesh, and the skin -- three separate things with different purposes but all identifiable as "apple." Others have said the Trinity is like a woman who can have three functions as a daughter, a wife, and a mother, but still be only one person.

[Fr_Chuck]

And one does not have to "know" or worry about it, if we accept Christ as our Savior, know he died for our sins. Then we are saved. Too often we get so caught up in the meaning of one word, or as we have seen in the last pages, taking one verse out of context and confusing meanings often of translations.

The Bible is clear that Jesus was the Son of God, and that there was a Father ( Jesus prayed to him) And that Jesus sent his spirit to the early church. So the bible gives us all the main players. It is how they fit together exactly is what we don't know. My opinion it is beyond our ability to understand and accept. Man has always been bad about this, they try to force things to fit within their level of understanding.

That is why the visions of John or others has been issues to me, since they have to try and explain with their education level and with the knowledge of that day, what they are seeing.

[dwashbur]

It's called a mystery. No one has ever been able to adequately understand or explain it. Some have said the Trinity is like an apple -- the core, the flesh, and the skin -- three separate things with diferent purposes but all identifiable as "apple." Others have said the Trinity is like a woman who can have three functions as a daughter, a wife, and a mother, but still be only one person.

I pointed out to I Newton several times that Jesus didn't contradict the people when they accused him of calling himself God, but Newton refuses to address that fact. Instead he chooses to sidestep and go back to name-calling ("murderous Jews" to give just one example).

If Almighty God, creator of the universe, was fully comprehensible by our finite minds, he wouldn't be worthy of the title, much less of our worship. The fact that we can't grasp his nature shouldn't come as any surprise; it's sort of in the job description. The analogies WG gave are good as far as they go; another one I've seen is an egg, which consists of shell, white and yolk yet it's one egg. But all analogies break down at some point. It makes more sense, if we are being honest with ourselves and our human frailty, to admit we can't understand it. But it's something God has revealed about himself, so why not acknowledge it?

[arcura]

TUT317,
You have made an excellent point.
I best like the one that is each of us are a trinity on one person of body mind and spirit.
Each has its own functions but relies on the others to be one complete being.
But like you say that is somewhat good but still inadequate in comparison to God's Trinity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

We can all come up with wonderful philosophical explanations of how an egg has three parts etc. but that does not mean anything at all.

The reason all you people are having so much trouble understanding the reality of Yahweh and Jesus is pure and simply because you cannot reasonably explain how your god fits into John 5

You have such strong faith that what you have been told is true while what you read cannot possibly be true.

Wodergirl said
>The Trinity is a central doctrine of Christianity.<
Yes it is, but it was not taught by Moses or Jesus.

>Yes, Jesus who was born in Bethlehem of a human mother<
Yet you ignore that Jesus is in subjection to Yahweh while he is in heaven, AFTER he was on earth. So he logically is not God Yahweh.

>After the Resurrection, Jesus triumphantly reclaimed His position in Heaven, His position as one of the Trinity, His position as God.<
So you say, yet the Bible says nothing of the sort. They are words YOU have put in there, which is also against Jesus command not to ad to the books.

Paraclete said
>I don"t think we were ever expected to understand the complex relationships of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.<
On the contrary, Jesus said he has fully explained his Father Yahweh and even the use of Father and Son says more about the true relationship. Even if Jesus were equal to Yahweh and yet not God the relationship would be Brother, not Father and Son.

>Jesus existed alongside the Father from the beginning and took human form, I think this is perhaps the hardest part to understand.<
Nothing hard about it at all.

Jesus is God Yahweh’s Son.
Jesus learns from his Father Yahweh over Billions of years being with him.
Yahweh places Jesus life into a human woman.
Jesus is killed and returns to heaven where he remain in subjection to his Father Yahweh

What is so hard? Unless of course you want to go against the Bible and try and believe that Jesus is his own father.

Wondergirl said
>It's called a mystery.<
Mmmm, is it now?

See if you can see what is called a mystery in the Bible.
I say your Triune god is a mystery, but Yahweh God is definitely no mystery.

>No one has ever been able to adequately understand or explain it.<
Because it is not true.

On the other hand, the truth will set you free.
The truth is easy to understand.
The truth is Timmothy knew the scriptures from childhood.
The truth is easy for even a child to understand.
Out of the mouth of babes … the truth

Only false teachings are hard to squeeze into the Bible.

Fr Chuck said
>And one does not have to "know" or worry about it.<
And yet the Trinity is supposed to be the … what was it … “central doctrine of Christianity”

No one has yet mentioned John 5. No one has tried to explain how the Triune God was suppose to fit into John 5 … A scripture that quoted not by me, but by Class T, so you cannot blame me.

>The Bible is clear that Jesus was the Son of God, and that there was a Father<
Yes, and no where does it say that Jesus was the Father.

>Man has always been bad about this, they try to force things to fit within their level of understanding.<
No force required, unless you try and force a false teaching into what is clearly a simple issue. THAT is what makes it hard for all of you.

Dwashbur said
>I pointed out to I Newton several times that Jesus didn't contradict the people when they accused him of calling himself God, but Newton refuses to address that fact. Instead he chooses to sidestep and go back to name-calling ("murderous Jews" to give just one example).<

Let’s look at the first part of your statement dwashbur:

Did you read the post that Classy made about John 5?

Are you still holding fast to your idea that Jesus did not contradict them?
Are you still holding fast to your idea that the Jews, sorry, murderous Jews were right?

Now to the second part of your statement:

I refused to address the fact … in what way may I ask? Have you bothered to read the posts?

Are you offended by me calling the Jews that wanted to murder Jesus as … murderous?

How is it you would like me to describe these men?

We know you would like to say that they were right; they were right in concluding that Jesus was saying he was in fact God.

Would you like to explain to us how the events of John 5 support your idea that it is perfectly clear that Jesus stated he is in fact God Yahweh and that the Jews were right in their deductions?

This discussion is quite stupid.

You people quoted John 5 as proof that Jesus said he was Yahweh.

I wrote John 5 on the post for you all.

None of you have even tried to explain how John 5 is worthy of your support behind it backing up your claim that Jesus is his own Father.

And of course I will go down as the bad goy in this discussion, probably get deleted, or in the least get the thread locked.

Have I avoided any issue?

Have ANY of you explained John 5, which YOU sited as proof?

Which is correct John 5, or your religions?

Is John 5 in complete agreement with your religion’s idea that Jesus is his own Father?

Why not?

Think about it.

[classyT]

I NEWTON,

I put the wrong chapter and verse down... my bad it was a typo.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. And then verse 59 the Jews picked up rocks to stone him... Check it out when you have time.

I already feel I explained John 5.

1 John 4:14 states: The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Jesus had a mission. He was to come here and redeem mankind. Notice it doesn't say the Father created the son so he could be the savior of the world. Notice it doesn't say the Father MADE the son so he could be the savior of the world. It says HE SENT HIM. :

Check it out once more for good measure:

Phillipians 2: 5 Let this mind be in YOU which was also in Christ Jesus: verse 6. Who being in the FORM of GOD thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God: verse 7 BUT made himself of no reputation and TOOK UPON HIMSELF the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. 8. and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obdedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore GOD also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jeuss every knee should bow of things in heaven, and things in earth and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of the Father.

This is what Paul is saying point blank, flat out... He is telling us to have the same attitude that Jesus had. And then he explains what that mind or attitude was... Humble, obedient servant...

Although Jesus was in the form of God and equal with God he DID NOT take advantage of this equality. INSTEAD HE ( JESUS) gave up His DIVINE right and took the humble position of a human being. He THEN CHOSE to humble himself by becoming obedient to the point of death on the Cross. FOR THIS REASON God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM and has given in a Name above EVERY NAME and one day EVERYONE will bow to JESUS and EVERYONE will confess that HE IS LORD.

This explains exactly why Jesus said what he did in John 5.

I NEWTON.I don't have a religion I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior and I do NOT avoid issues.
Just sos you know. :)