[adam7gur]

Did your father give birth to you?

Yes he did.

[I Newton]

Wondergirl, were you born without a father?

To humanise the birth experience of the Word is disrespectful.

God gave birth to the Word in that he created him.

This is a site moderated by Catholics and anyone who asks the tough questions is branded anti-Catholic so they can feel justified in deleting posted questions.

Protestants are welcome to post as long as they can be kept in line.

Legitimate questions that are put to catholics are locked very quick in deed.

Adam7gur is right

Jesus is a god

The Father is the only true God because he created Jesus and gives Jesus life.

Jesus is a god because he is of the same substance as the Father.

But that does not make him equal to the Father.

Yes there is an order in the... trinity as washbur says, and that is because The Father is Greater than The Son because the Father is the true God... The Father is the Son's God.. . The Son is Never the Father's God.

This is al very simple unless you try and squeeze the pagan triune god into the equation.

I dodge no issue.

It is my questions thare are deleted.

[classyT]

classyT,
In this case we are in the same class.
That is.....
A friend of Jesus is a freind of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Check it out FRED!! You are now a CHRISTIANITY EXPERT!. how COOL is that? (course you are wrong a lot :D) But CONGRATS... whoo and the hoo for you.

[classyT]

Let me ask this! When was the Son of God born? No doubt God has a Son and if He has a Son then at some point the Son was born somehow. When was that?
It is written that the name of the Son is the Word and it is written that in the beginning was the Word, so what is this beginning? It is simply the beginning of everything and in that beginning was the Word, so God's Son was born before the beginning of everything as it is written that everything was made by the Word and for the Word and nothing that is made is made without the Word. So God's Son, the Word was born before time was created because the Word created time and that makes the Word, God's only begotten,out of time, eternal.
I do not agree with the concept of all persons coexisting.I believe that there was a time before time when God was all alone when there was nothing else but Him.He was alone and silent, this source of Life was alone and silent and at one point He spoke, His voice was heard and the Word was born. Why did God name His Son the Word? Why not something else like the Power? Because His Son is the actual manifestation of God speaking.Imagine this never ending source of Life exploding from within and sparkling Life through His Word. He spoke and His Son,the Word was born.
This explains why the Son says that the Father is greater than Him and this is not a statement that comes out of respect, this is the actual truth. The Son could never be without the Father, but the Father was before the Son.
Even in nature a son comes after the father even though the son is being kept in the father's bosom through his sperm that gives life.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was whe Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. John 1:14.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

This is what he told the Jews who questioned him John 8:58
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" And incidentally they totally got what he was saying... they picked up stones to kill him for saying he was GOD.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the one who spoke this world into existence. ( Let US make man in OUR own imagine) He always was,always will be... he IS God. He was NEVER created. He said himself he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. I don't say I understand it.. I just believe it.

God in three persons... blessed trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All equal.

[I Newton]

Well, I must admit, I did not know the Bible account stated that "they totally got what he was saying."

I find it interesting how we Catholics look at what enemies of Jesus deduced and argue that they were right.

Why is it we Catholics like what the Sanhedrin and Jews that wanted to kill Jesus believed?

Here is a little secret, the Bible does not say they were right.

I am not overly interested in rushing in to make the same mistakes as the Jews... are you?

Jesu said "US" and "OUR" so he was not alone.

Was he speaking to God, or was he speaking to all the angels?

This is no way near 'proof' of a Triune god.

>he IS God. He was NEVER created<
So you say, but the Bible never says is God and it says he was begotten, so your opinion is contrary to the Bible.

>He said himself he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. I don't say I understand it.. I just believe it. <
Saying he is the first and the last does not mean he is in fact God.

The best scripture you have is John 1:1 which contradicts itself straight away anyway, so it is not reliable.

Adam7's explanation is easy to understand because it is real
You do not understand your explanation because it is fake.

It is so fake there is no point in discussing it, none of you understand it, none of you can agree completely on what it is, and none of you can understand how Jesus is in subjection to God, is begotten, talks to God, etc etc etc

The belief is based purely on ancient pagan teachings that have been squeezed into the Bible where only a dozen or so scriptures can be twisted to support the idea.

[adam7gur]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was whe Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. John 1:14.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us

This is what he told the Jews who questioned him John 8:58
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" And incidently they totally got what he was saying...they picked up stones to kill him for saying he was GOD.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the one who spoke this world into existance. ( Let US make man in OUR own imagine) He always was,always will be....he IS God. He was NEVER created. He said himself he is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. I don't say I understand it..i just believe it.

God in three persons...blessed trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. all equal.

I never said that the Word was created, I said that He was born, begotten, the only begotten Son of God.If the Father and the Son are totally equal why did the Son say that His Father is greater than Him? Why is the Son praying to the Father and why is not the Father praying to the Son if they are equal in that sense?Yes He was killed because He made Himself equal to God and in that sense He is equal to God because the Son of God cannot be anything less than a God, but He is a God only because the Father begotten Him and that happened way before the incarnation of the Son. He was not created like you and I , but He was begotten by God and only God Himself.
So you think that God is the sum of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit like 1+1+1=1? To me it is more like that the Father is the source of every number let's say and every number that comes out of Him has his substance so in that sense they are equal,but the source of anything is greater than any kind of amount that comes out of that source.
What is a river without its spring? Yes the river and its spring are of the same substance but which comes first? Is it the river that gives life to the spring or is it the other way around? The Father is the Spring of Life and His Son is the River of Life.
This is not hard to understand although I know that it is hard to let go of what we think we know even though we cannot explain it. When you know, you believe and when you believe you can explain. How can you believe something that you do not know and how can you say that you believe something when you cannot explain it?
In the name of Jesus Christ, the great I AM, may we come to the fullness of His knowledge, Amen!

[I Newton]

The agument is pointless.

They will not listen to reason because to them, God is mysterious.

They do not know what he is, they do not understand what he is.

They will reply to you that when Jesus said the father is greater than I he was on earth at a time when he was actually lower than his father.

BUT they will completely ignore the fact that they say that Jesus saying "the Father and I are one" is proof they are the same, (ignoring that Jesus was on earth at the time)

They do not care what the Bible says Adam. They only care what their churches tell them. If the church is contrary to the Bible, they choose the church over the Bible.

With reasoning like that, they will not learn.

They know it is not true, because they are completely confused by it, but there is no way in the world they will even want to admit it to themselves in the fear that they are somehow denying God.

They will completely ignore thousands of scriptures that show the triune god to be false while focusing only on the dozen or so scriptures that support such an idea.

Remember Adam, they believe that if they take on the view or rituals of other religions, it is then a Christian ritual because the power of God clenses the ritual.

You cannot argue with that kind of logic Adam.

These are people who are taught that God accepts them no matter what they do or think or what religion they follow.

They think God does not care if they know who or what he is.

They think God does not care if they think it is right or wrong to kill.

They think God does not care if they bow down and do acts of worship to statues or not.

Or if they pray to dead people.

Or if they give each other lofty titles forbidden in the Bible

Or if they think there are other ways other than Jesus for salvation.

Their belief is not logical and so will never respond to logic Adam.

They believe the Bible is too hard to understand and so need to pay someone money to tell them what it means.

They believe God moves in mysterious ways.

Hence, they will believe anything.

[Wondergirl]

Yes he did.

No, he didn't. Your father did not give birth to you. Your mother gave birth to you. Your father needed a woman in order to create you. God chose Mary as the mother for His Son.

[dwashbur]

What is the one thing that makes someone a father or a son if not the fact that the first gave birth to the second?

I see what you're saying. My big problem with it is that it's way too anthropomorphic (basically, creating God in our own image). The terms "father" and "son" within the godhead are terms of position and function, not necessarily of essence.

[cdad]

The agument is pointless.

They will not listen to reason because to them, God is mysterious.

They do not know what he is, they do not understand what he is.

They will reply to you that when Jesus said the father is greater than I he was on earth at a time when he was actually lower than his father.

BUT they will completely ignore the fact that they say that Jesus saying "the Father and I are one" is proof they are the same, (ignoring that Jesus was on earth at the time)

They do not care waht the Bible says Adam. They only care what their churches tell them. If the church is contrary to the Bible, they choose the church over the Bible.

With reasoning like that, they will not learn.

They know it is not true, because they are completely confused by it, but there is no way in the world they will even want to admit it to themselves in the fear that they are somehow denying God.

They will completely ignore thousands of scriptures that show the triune god to be false while focusing only on the dozen or so scriptures that support such an idea.

Remember Adam, they believe that if they take on the view or rituals of other religions, it is then a Christian ritual because the power of God clenses the ritual.

You cannot argue with that kind of logic Adam.

These are people who are taught that God accepts them no matter what they do or think or what religion they follow.

They think God does not care if they know who or what he is.

They think God does not care if they think it is right or wrong to kill.

They think God does not care if they bow down and do acts of worship to statues or not.

Or if they pray to dead people.

Or if they give eachother lofty titles forbidden in the Bible

Or if they think there are other ways other than Jesus for salvation.

Their belief is not logical and so will never respond to logic Adam.

They believe the Bible is too hard to understand and so need to pay someone money to tell them what it means.

They believe God moves in mysterious ways.

Hence, they will believe anything.

I find it really sad how much you don't know and how much your leaving out to understand. Maybe some day you can figure it all out for us. But for now you need to start studying A lot more to even get a glimpse as to where things are and where they are headed.

[adam7gur]

No, he didn't. Your father did not give birth to you. Your mother gave birth to you. Your father needed a woman in order to create you. God chose Mary as the mother for His Son.

Well this is the point, God's Son was before His incarnation.He was even before Mary was taking her form in her mother's body. Actually it was God's Son who gave life to Mary because everything was made by the Word and for the Word and the name of the Son of God is the Word of God. His incarnation is not the moment that He was born.He did not come to existence at that point, He was in the beginning with God and He was God.
Don't you know that both man and woman are made in His image?So where does a woman's ability to give birth come from if not from the very character of God?Why do you find it hard to understand that the Father could give birth then to His Son?

[adam7gur]

I see what you're saying. My big problem with it is that it's way too anthropomorphic (basically, creating God in our own image). The terms "father" and "son" within the godhead are terms of position and function, not necessarily of essence.

There is nothing in the human nature except sin that is strange to God's character.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
When you read those words coming out of the mouth of God what do you sense? Are those words to describe a position or a function or are they to describe the very close relationship between those two persons? This is a way for a father to speak about his son and if you are a father you know how it feels. To understand what I am trying to say think of how repulsive someone feels when he says to his son you are not my son, and now think how much love is hidden behind the words Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, and I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son!

[TUT317]

I see what you're saying. My big problem with it is that it's way too anthropomorphic (basically, creating God in our own image). The terms "father" and "son" within the godhead are terms of position and function, not necessarily of essence.

Hi dwash,

Yes, this is pretty much the problem with this theory, Applying causation to a non material entity creates many problems.

If anything exists it is necessary that something exists. Something potentially existing does not mean that it actually exists. If we are all the product of being 'created' by God rather than 'created' by both parents then we have a problem of potentiality and actuality.

Actuality in this world is explained by cause and effect. Our mothers actually give birth to us. It is possible to argue that our fathers potentially give birth to us. However this line of reasoning forces us to say that future generations actually exist.

Regards

Tut

[I Newton]

Califdadof3
>I find it really sad how much you don't know and how much your leaving out to understand. Maybe some day you can figure it all out for us. But for now you need to start studying A lot more to even get a glimpse as to where things are and where they are headed.<

So you say, yet you do not understand your triune god, you do not understand how saints hear prayers, you do not understand the Lord’s Prayer, you do not understand how it is okay to call priests by the title ‘father’, etc etc.

If you are Catholic, your church claims to be the authority on Christianity, yet explains nothing.

All it does is tells you what it teaches but does not say how the teaching agrees with the Bible. It will mention small pieces of scripture and then carry on with pages of philosophy.

All it offers is “but”.

Yes God is one, BUT he is three (and this is not in the Bible)
Yes Jesus is the only way to salvation, BUT so is Mary (not in the Bible)
No you should not bow to images, BUT you can if it helps you concentrate (not in the Bible)
No you should not kill another person and especially not a brother, BUT if your brother lives in a country that your government does not agree with and goes to war against, you should certainly kill your brother (not in the Bible)
No you should not call priests by the title ‘father’, BUT it is okay if it is done out of respect (not in the Bible)

I could go on and on, but it will not make any difference; because I ask such questions that will not be answered except for the odd pages and pages of philosophical religious ranting, I will be labelled anti-Catholic so it makes it easy for some to sleep at night.

And then they say ‘I’ do not know much.



And back on the subject, I wonder how it is some people think God could not create Jesus.

Do they think it is impossible for God to do this, or is it because it goes against what they have been told?

Jesus was the first of all creation.

Before Jesus, Yahweh was alone.

Then Jesus, with the power given to him from his father Yahweh, created all other things.

Yahweh is the only true God.

Jesus is obviously a god, who receives his power from HIS God, Yahweh.

Does anyone deny that Jesus is A god?

Most go even further and say he is not just A god, he is THE God.

He may well be part of the God 'family' but Yahweh he obviously is not.

Are there other gods? Does Yahweh even allow us to have other gods?

Did Yahweh give the title of gods to mere humans?

If even God Yahweh and Jesus can say that mere men are gods, why is it so hard for some people to accpet that Jesus is a god?

Because it is absolutely unacceptable in the relm of their pagan triune god.

But it is black and white in the Bible.

[Wondergirl]

Yes God is one, BUT he is three (and this is not in the Bible)
Yes Jesus is the only way to salvation, BUT so is Mary (not in the Bible)
No you should not bow to images, BUT you can if it helps you concentrate (not in the Bible)
No you should not kill another person and especially not a brother, BUT if your brother lives in a country that your government does not agree with and goes to war against, you should certainly kill your brother (not in the Bible)
No you should not call priests by the title 'father', BUT it is okay if it is done out of respect (not in the Bible)

What are earth are you reading or hearing, and who is filling your head with these ideas? (P.S. I'm Protestant. Catholics AND Protestants don't believe the above.)

[cdad]

Newton what you don't understand is what your spewing as truth isn't. Can you point to where it might say that if someone were to pray to Mary that she is the way to the light?

No, That wasn't in anything I was taught. Where are you getting your ideas from? Im sure you just can't be making things up.

[dwashbur]

There is nothing in the human nature except sin that is strange to God's character.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
When you read those words coming out of the mouth of God what do you sense? Are those words to describe a position or a function or are they to describe the very close relationship between those two persons? [snip]

Neither; in context, they describe the Incarnation. So that verse has nothing to do with their pre-incarnate relationship.

[TUT317]

And back on the subject, I wonder how it is some people think God could not create Jesus.

Do they think it is impossible for God to do this, or is it because it goes against what they have been told?

Jesus was the first of all creation.

Before Jesus, Yahweh was alone.

Then Jesus, with the power given to him from his father Yahweh, created all other things.

Yahweh is the only true God.

Jesus is obviously a god, who receives his power from HIS God, Yahweh.

Does anyone deny that Jesus is A god?

Most go even further and say he is not just A god, he is THE God.

He may well be part of the God 'family' but Yahweh he obviously is not.

Are there other gods? Does Yahweh even allow us to have other gods?

Did Yahweh give the title of gods to mere humans?

If even God Yahweh and Jesus can say that mere men are gods, why is it so hard for some people to accpet that Jesus is a god?

Because it is absolutely unacceptable in the relm of their pagan triune god.

But it is black and white in the Bible.

Hi Mr. Newton,

I am just wondering if this philosophy/theology is part of any particular religious denomination?


Regards

Tut

[arcura]

I do believe that the son of God was born of the virgin Mary.
Before that he was known as the WORD of God.
As the bible tells us the Word became flesh in the form of Jesus the son of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[TUT317]

Just a point of clarification. A couple of people might think that the doctrine of the Trinity is to be understood as some type of mathematical relationship, usually expressed along the lines of 1+1+1=

Rather, it is to be understood as an investigation into the nature of substance. The study of the various categories which, on the face of it appear distinct are actually one and the same.

Relationship does come into it, but today the talk is more about internal and external consistency of objects.

Tut