[arcura]

TUT317,
What frightens me most about such thinking is the ultra radials of and in any party.
Saddly to me it seems that both major parties these days is run by ultra radicals AND...
Unfortunately we have some Christian denominations who appear to be run the same way.
With not enough Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeCanada76]

I as some of you know have been brought up Roman Catholic.

There are many things within the catholic church that I enjoy and some of the masses are amazing.

At the same time. I was brought up that everything was sin, that we had to confess our sins at all times. As a young child being forced to go to confession on a weekly basis. Here I am as a child thinking okay what am I going to say to the priest? I felt like I had to make up things or feel that no matter what I did, I was always needing to confess something.

Now there are many ceremonies part of the church or even rituals and beliefs of the church that actually go against Gods teachings.

I will list some,

First: Communion. We are told you have to go through all this processes to be accepted at the table or the front for communion. That children are only allowed to be blessed but now allowed to receive it.

Who exactly did Jesus welcome first and said who would be excepted in the kingdom of God, Children. So children according to the Catholic church are not aloud to receive the host? Or be welcomed along with everyone else.

Also Jesus, did not ask are you protestant, catholic, Anglican, or so forth. He welcomed ALL to the table to eat with him. All are accepted to come to Jesus. Catholic church thinks that only Catholics that are baptized and went through communion are welcomed up to receive the host but everyone else is told they can take a flying leap because they do not belong there. Wrong again. All denominations, all people who want to receive the host and believe in the gathering should be welcomed, period.

So in my own opinion the catholic rigid teachings are against Gods teaching of love and acceptance.

Recent experience with my son, he wants to be excepted and seen everybody else receive the bread except for him. It actually seriously hurt him. He should be part of the gathering of the table no matter what.

I understand the Catholics all to well. Being in church having women go to confession and then come out and talk and gossip about other people within the church because somebody might not be standing or sitting or doing whatever anybody else is doing.

I think we need to worship God. In whatever way the spirit leads us, but not the way somebody or body dictates to us.

Also we are taught the church community is very important and that within the church is where the people gather is the church.

Yet when my wife and I got married. We wanted to get married outside, by the ocean. We were told that the catholic church and specifically the priest said that is not allowed. The church, the building and the people inside the church is what makes it the community.

Although, in my mind it is not about the church, it is not about the building. It is about the peoples hearts and minds and souls and where they gather or come together should not matter.

Another thing is confession, you confess to a priest. Confessions of any kind should be brought to God. Priest or the Pope have no authority or spirit or mind to bring it to God for us. It should be up to each individual to bring their confessions to God and God alone.

Jesus is the head of the church, not the priest, not the pope. That simple really.

My mother got divorced years ago. The divorce was for legit reasons. Father had affairs and was a drunk. So years later, legally divorced. She went to the Catholic church to get married to my step father and the church refused to allow it and did not recognize her divorce. Now if you want to go by according to what the bible says in certain circumstances divorce is allowed. She was not allowed to get married. So she ended up getting married in the baptist church because they recognized her marriage.

Also my aunt had a child, she was not married. They did not want to baptize the baby because it was a baby out of wed lock and they were not going to recognize the baby as a catholic or even baptize the baby.

I also feel that each church is different depending on the priest and church. Catholic denominations are not all the same and have sin differences within different catholic churches as well as Anglican and baptist , etc...

Now in ending, You all hope. Just kidding. It does not matter what church or denomination or group you go with or attend or believe in there is no 100 percent correctness. It does not matter what denomination I went to, it does not seem that my Idea of God, and my Belief in God, and my Experience with God fits any ONE denomination or religion because guess what? Religion and denominations are ALL man made.

IMPERFECT. Now there are certain situations that I believe are right and some are wrong. I try to listen to my spirit within that God gave me to direct my life. We do have that within each of us I believe.

I do my best not to judge, but have seen lots of judgments made especially from fellow Catholics.

It is not wonder why Catholics have such a reputation. By the way just because somebody goes to church once a week does not make them any better then somebody else that does not go all the time. Or not at all. Many former Catholics believe that they know God within their hearts and souls and have formed their own opinions and thoughts about life and what God is all about.

I think I am done.

Joe

[JudyKayTee]

First of all, I didn't use gender that would identify anybody, I simply said 'writer'. I'll be happy to discuss this, it's not BAD; it simply typifies the type of 'liberalism' I was discussing. If you want to continue I will.

JoeT

Unfortunately for you, JoeT, I copied your post before you went back and edited it (and quoted it in my original response to you). Now you say you "didn't use gender that would identify anybbody. [I] simply said 'writer'."

Here's what you said (pre edit): One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of 'one religion is as good as another'."

Would you like a moderator to look up your post before the change was made?

Another person who cannot defend what he posts and/or shifts position. Even worse you've denied that you said what you said - for whatever reason.

- on the religion board.

I rest my case.

[JoeT777]

Unfortunately for you, JoeT, I copied your post before you went back and edited it (and quoted it in my original reponse to you). Now you say you "didn't use gender that would identify anybbody. [I] simply said 'writer'."

Here's what you said (pre edit): One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of 'one religion is as good as another'."

Would you like a moderator to look up your post before the change was made?

Another person who cannot defend what he posts and/or shifts position. Even worse you've denied that you said what you said - for whatever reason.

- on the religion board.

I rest my case.

It snowed here, quite a strange event for this area. In my usual morning fog, I didn't notice until I was half way to the car and found myself boot deep in snow. Southerners have no idea what to do with snow; so I'm quite lost this morning. I've heard that if you get snow on your person, you turn into a frozen pillar of ice, or something like that.

If you'll notice, 'she' was in reference to the Roman Catholic Church, not to any individual. One of the comments was that Catholicism was no problem as long as we kept our views within the Church. I took it that the writer was suggesting a 'quarantine' of reason being that (my words) Catholic Truth only applies to Catholics; thus we should keep it to ourselves.

I edited out my observation out of respect for you; I apologize for being thoughtless. This is especially true knowing that that while most non-Catholics don't mind criticizing Catholicism they find it offensive when the worm turns.

My intent was to show how 'liberalism' works in contemporary thought.

I can, and I'm more than willing, to defend my case; I just want to make sure you're really willing to take 'push back' from a Catholic.


JoeT

[JudyKayTee]

Quite frankly, I'm out of here - I find it less than honest to substantially amend a post AFTER it's been answered. In my eyes this is very similar to deliberately misquoting anyone.

I (obviously) "didn't notice" that your reference to "she" was in regard to the Catholic Church - and I don't know why you didn't simply say that from the beginning instead of dancing this dance.

[JoeT777]

Quite frankly, I'm out of here - I find it less than honest to substantially amend a post AFTER it's been answered. In my eyes this is very similar to deliberately misquoting anyone.

I (obviously) "didn't notice" that your reference to "she" was in regard to the Catholic Church - and I don't know why you didn't simply say that from the beginning instead of dancing this dance.

Quite frankly, it was so obvious I didn't think I needed to point it out.

JoeT

[ebaines]

jenjeru: I must question the basis of this entire thread. Your hypothesis is that people raised in the Roman Catholic church are more inclined to leave the church of their upbringing than are people raised in other Christian denominations - meaning Protestants - but you base this solely on personal observation So I would ask you two questions:

1. Is you sample biased by where you happen to live? I would guess that if you live in a neighborhood with a large RC population you'll get different set of results that if you live in an area with few RC's.

2. How do you count Protestants who grew up in one denominaton but are now members of another? In your analysis do they count as having "left"? If not, then your sampling method is invalid. Take me for example: my parents both grew up as Methodists, but moved to a town town that had only one protestant church - it was New England Congregational, so if you weren't Roman Catholic or Jewish that's where you went, and that's the church I was raised in. Then I moved away and married a girl who is Episcopalean, and that's the church we have attended for 25 years and our kids grew up in. Meanwhile my parents moved to Florida and joined the local Presbyterian Church. So I ask - does this mean my family has "left" the church 4 times? That's certainly not how we feel. So how would you count me in your poll?

[TUT317]

TUT317,
What frightens me most about such thinking is the ultra radials of and in any party.
Saddly to me it seems that both major parties these days is run by ultra radicals AND...
Unfortunately we have some Christian denominations who appear to be run the same way.
With not enough Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes I agree with that. The problem is that Pallen ignores or fails to see the importance of separating church and state. This is the basis of any liberal philosophy.

The problem is that if we reject Liberalism then we have very few alternatives other than some type of autocratic government.

Regards

Tut

[Fr_Chuck]

What importance of separating, the church was to be protected FROM the government, not separated from it.

[jenjeru]

jenjeru: I must question the basis of this entire thread. Your hypothesis is that people raised in the Roman Catholic church are more inlcined to leave the church of their upbringing than are people raised in other Christian denominations - meaning Protestants - but you base this solely on personal observation So I would ask you two questions:

1. Is you sample biased by where you happen to live? I would guess that if you live in a neighborhood with a large RC population you'll get different set of results that if you live in an area with few RC's.

2. How do you count Protestants who grew up in one denominaton but are now members of another? In your analysis do they count as having "left"? If not, then your sampling method is invalid. Take me for example: my parents both grew up as Methodists, but moved to a town town that had only one protestant church - it was New England Congregational, so if you weren't Roman Catholic or Jewish that's where you went, and that's the church I was raised in. Then I moved away and married a girl who is Episcopalean, and that's the church we have attended for 25 years and our kids grew up in. Meanwhile my parents moved to Florida and joined the local Presbyterian Church. So I ask - does this mean my family has "left" the church 4 times? That's certainly not how we feel. So how do you count me in your poll?

ebaines,

That is a very good point... allow me to clarify.

First, to be clear, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, I attended Catholic school for many years along with most of my very large family, so for most of my life I was surrounded by a very small community with similar beliefs. It wasn't a necessarily bad or good experience, it was just all that I knew (even though outside of my Catholic community, the town in which I grew up was predominantly Protestant.)

I left the Catholic faith in what could probably be considered a fit of teenage angst, but it was mostly that in my heart I disagreed with many of the points that others have brought up in this thread.

So when I say "leaving" the faith, I mean faith completely as a result of overwhelming negative feelings towards the religion... not switching denominations (as in your example of Methodist to Presbyterian, etc.) or even religions (I know of many converts to Judaism and Islam as well).

Once I decided to be done with religion, I never thought that it would come up again until I went to the Vatican two years ago and it struck an odd chord with me so I started on a two-year long project to try and wrestle with my issues that just happen to stem from my Catholic upbringing. I have found that my blindness in simply rejecting faith is just as ignorant as blindly believing. (If you interested in that aspect, here is more about my project.. About Project Jerusalem)

I ask this question because through trying to wrestle with the implications of my upbringing and questioning others, I have found a common trend in Catholics later rejecting their faith. By sampling people, I am not merely referring to the area I grew up in, but wide surveys in various places of the United States as well as in Jerusalem (where I traveled three months ago in order to interview religious leaders of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). I mentioned geography because as you said in your post, sometimes religious affiliation (or denomination affiliation) is based on geography rather that a conscious effort to join one specific religion.

I know what it was about Catholicism that turned me away, but I'm curious as to what it is for others, many of which have expressed their opinions to me over the course of my project.

[TUT317]

What importance of seperating, the church was to be protected FROM the government, not seperated from it.

Hi Fr Chuck,

The separating of church and government was designed to highlight the distinction between secular matters and matters of faith. Government takes care of secular matters and the church takes care of religious matters. Such matters are accounted for in what is know as the social contract.

Thomas Hobbes in his, 'Leviathan' started the ball rolling. Basically Hobbes would say that it is irrelevant as to whether there is a Protestant monarch or a Catholic monarch. If the government forces everyone to be Protestant because that is what the monarch desires then so be it.
For Hobbes this is preferable to living in a state of total warfare where life is,"nasty, brutish and short".

The idea of social contract first came in when Hobbes claims that citizens should give up their freedoms, religious or otherwise and agree to obey the sovereign power.

Since Hobbes' time the social contract theory has been much refined and today religious freedoms are part of that contract.

The idea of separating church and state actually guarantees religious freedom. Not separating them actually takes away this freedom.

It is the opposite to what you would think.

Regards

Tut

[arcura]

Jesushelper76,
It is obvious to me that you do NOT well understand why the Church teaches and why it does as it does.
Priests DO have the authority from Jesus Himself to forgive sins. Like all else with The Church that is based on Holy Scripture.
Your mother COULD have remarried in The Church IF she had had her former marriage dissolved via an annulment.
I know because I've seen it done.
A marriage CAN take place outside the Church building.
My sister-in-law was married on a ranch by a Catholic Priest.
Permission to do that was obtained from the Bishop.
There are several very good reasons what a child must be prepared to receive Christ in the Eucharist.
One is that a person MUST be worthy to partake.
There is much more about all this regarding your post.
I suggest that you contact a good Catholic apologist who has the time to help you fully understand you CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC FAITH.
You are like many who leave The Church, they don't understand it and that all of Catholic teaching IS biblically based.
I'm a convert and needed to fully understand Catholicism before I would join it. That is why I say that anyone who fully understands The Catholic Church will never leave it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

The idea of separating church and state actually guarantees religious freedom. Not separating them actually takes away this freedom.

No it doesn’t.

[TUT317]

No it doesn’t.

I see... Would you like the state to decide on our religious practices?

[arcura]

TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.
Although there ARE some people who do want to abuse that and harm or hinder certain religious practices or beliefs,
Some want all religions to be abolished or stopped from practicing.
Those are the ultra radical secularists who insist that religion offends them.
They are not bothered by the fact that their attitude offends me and millions of other people.
Maybe we should sue them for offending us??
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeCanada76]

Also there are many practices that do go against God, and Gods teaching.

I have been reading the bible and yes the whole bible many times over since the young age of 9 on my own.

I have been to many different churches.

You know what Gods love goes so much deeper.

I also noticed you fail to pick away the part of the answer about Catholics not allowing other denominations or even children take part in communion.

When Jesus would welcome everyone at his table that wants to come, but Catholics and other denominations goes against that very thought. Jesus said become like children they will be the first to enter the kingdom. Yet children are not welcomed to receive the host. Guess what that is wrong and not right and against the teachings of the bible.


Please do not underestimate my understanding of the catholic church. Considering I have been in a catholic church all my life.

You and many others can not rap around the idea that maybe all is not right. You know what, God would not really look down here and really think that an argument over such things is actually worth it do you.

In the greatest commandment Jesus left us is to LOVE one another. Not to make judgments on one another. That God is the only judge.

Now I will go on for some more examples.

Homosexuality, and Abortion which are one of the two biggest debates in any church.

Are we to judge somebody that is living the lifestyle as a homosexual, the answer is no. It is not up to us.

Are we to judge somebody who has an abortion. No we are not. It is not up to us.

Especially when the church catholic church had a situation where a nine year old got raped by her father and she ended up getting pregnant with twins. I think she ended up having an abortion. Does the church have a right to sit their and tell the mother and child that she is going to be condemned to hell for going through with the procedure. I think not.

I am against abortion, I do not believe in it, but every single person has to make up their own individual mind about what is right and wrong and God will judge their heart, not you or me.

As far as homosexuality is it right to judge no. What we are supposed to do, is show Gods love to one another. Not just because you agree with certain people, but also show love towards others that you might think is living the wrong way but we need to embrace each other with love no matter what are differences are.

No one should feel excluded from the church because of their sexual history because quite frankly everybody has sinned in one manner or another. None of us are perfect. None of us have a right to judge.

We can say we do not believe in this lifestyle, that we do not believe it is right. Same as abortion in my eyes can be considered murder, but how can you sit there and judge a 9 year old of murder when she was a victim herself.

Okay as far as my mother she should have been allowed to be married in the church anyway. She was legally divorced. She got remarried what some 20 years later.

How about my aunt that they did not want to baptize their child because the child was out of wedlock.

I will say it again. That people treat and follow around the pope like a star, like an idol. How much did God love his idols?

Priests and teachers and anyone can become an idol to somebody but we need to look at God. Within our spirit let God talk to our hearts and not have it dictated to us by any church.

ALL DENOMINATIONS OR CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OR RELIGIONS ARE NOT 100 PERCENT CORRECT IN ANYTHING. IT IS ALL MAN MADE.

Simple really.

[arcura]

Jesushelper76,
There are very good sound reason why other deniominations and children are not aloud to take communion and I DID mention that a person musst ne wee prepared to take it.
The reason is that the bible says that a person should NOT partake of the body and blood of Jesus if they are unworthy.
That is why The Church tries its best to be sure that a person who partakes is worthy and that they receive itin a worthy proper manner.
As I said before, everything The Church teaches and DOES IS based on Holy Scripture; EVERYTHING!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeCanada76]

A Child is not worthy?? I think children are more worthy then adults to receive the host.

Nope not all scripture based. NO NOT EVERYTHING. Sorry but you need to understand the church, catholic church specifically does not have it right. All Right, and no it is not ALL scripture based.

If that was the case you would see ALL the children receive the host and other judgmental and no it all adults would have to take a back seat.

Is any of us worthy, Think not. See what I mean. Your arguments for, fall flat.

[TUT317]

[QUOTE=arcura;2219145]TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.

Hi Fred,

I see what you are getting at now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Regards

Tut

[rosemcs]

Jesushelper, from what planet are you speaking of that all children are worthy? Have you hung around children lately? (You are talking to a sub teacher here.) It really depends on which child and most children behave greatly on how their parents raise them, the parent being the one that is responsible for their example.

By worthy in the Catholic Church, it means that they have been baptized and do not have the stain of mortal sin on the soul. This is what is meant by total communion with the Church. One is having a relationship with Christ, who is head of the Church, and therefore abides by what He has established. Once again, I say from my previous post, that if one does not want to follow the rules, why would one even want to stay in that religion? (I don't say this for you, just in general, as a theoretical question.)

Let's switch it around a bit and say that an outsider to the Catholic Faith (or to any religion) can not get offended by not being accepted (ie. Being able to receive Holy Communion), if that person does not accept the teachings anyway... either you are for or against. One could compare it to having to accept any code of conduct in the freemasons, boy scouts, military, you name it. You belong if you accept the teachings (rules, code, etc). Otherwise, why bother being in that group?


I have nothing against you, and love your name... this post is getting off topic, but maybe jenjuru will gain some perspective from it. I believe that we are opening up a whole new range of topics with these discussions.