[ItsUp2Me]

As I understand, God was the beginning and God is the end, i.e, Alpha and Omega (Revelations 8:1). The period in question is called time.
However, as I understand, eternity has no beginning, nor does it have an end. Thus, it existed before the beginning of time and will continue after the end of time.

To put it another way, take a pencil and a blank sheet of paper. Place the point of the pencil on the paper and draw a circle, which is to extend the point 360 degrees back to its point of origin. We call the initial point the beginning of the circle and the reconnecting point the end of the circle. Yet when we look at it there is no beginning nor is there an end. We have created a continuous loop. But have we? I say no. We have created nothing but a mere tracing of the circle. It was there before we placed the pencil at the initial point. We could not see it, but we conceived of it. There was no beginning or end. This is the same as eternity. Time was the period that it took to trace from point A to point B. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to it as point A to point Z, or Alpha to Omega. This is the period God deals with--Alpha to Omega.

Now, back to my original question: what was there before Alpha and Omega?

[Wondergirl]

Now.

[TUT317]

As I understand, God was the beginning and God is the end, i.e, Alpha and Omega (Revelations 8:1). The period in question is called time.
However, as I understand, eternity has no beginning, nor does it have an end. Thus, it existed before the beginning of time and will continue after the end of time.

To put it another way, take a pencil and a blank sheet of paper. Place the point of the pencil on the paper and draw a circle, which is to extend the point 360 degrees back to its point of origin. We call the initial point the beginning of the circle and the reconnecting point the end of the circle. Yet when we look at it there is no beginning nor is there an end. We have created a continuous loop. But have we? I say no. We have created nothing but a mere tracing of the circle. It was there before we placed the pencil at the initial point. We could not see it, but we conceived of it. There was no beginning or end. This is the same as eternity. Time was the period that it took to trace from point A to point B. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to it as point A to point Z, or Alpha to Omega. This is the period God deals with--Alpha to Omega.

Now, back to my original question: what was there before Alpha and Omega?

Hi ItsUp2Me,

Immanuel Kant in his,"Critique of Pure Reason" answers most of your questions.

The sticking point is time. Time and Space represent things as they appear to us not as they actually are. These could be called things-for-us and things-in-themselves. Time and space are the glasses we are forced to wear. We cannot remove the glasses and see what eternity looks like(things-in-themselves). In other words we are forced to look at everything in terms of experience, with the glasses on (things-for-us).

When you talk about the concept of a circle or the concept of eternity the important word is CONCEPT. There is nothing in this world we can point to and say, that is an example of eternity.In the same way we are unable to point to the circle that isn't there( even though it is a concept). Because these concepts are conceived in the mind and not necessarily based in experience they are know as apriori (prior to experience)

Now this does not mean that experience is just experience. Kant would say that experience has an apriori aspect to it as well. The world we are all so familiar with is the result of something we are presented with and the result of apriori conditions supplied by the mind.

In other words, mind and experience come together to give what we understand. We have no choice in the matter. It would be good if we could neatly divide mind and experience and look at things in light of this division. It would be interesting to see what eternity looks like. But according to Kant this is not possible for us mere humans.

[Wondergirl]

There is nothing in this world we can point to and say, that is an example of eternity.

Ye, there is. An example of eternity is a cat sitting peacefully on his brisket in the sun with his eyes closed.

[TUT317]

Hi Wondergirl,

What is a cat's brisket??

[Wondergirl]

Hi Wondergirl,

What is a cat's brisket????

Please use the Merriam-Webster online dictionary to look up the word "brisket," or read several of the books in The Cat Who... series of mysteries by Lilian Jackson Braun.

When you eat a brisket of beef or corned beef, what body part is it from?

[TUT317]

Hello again Wondergirl,


Oh I see, he is lying on his side contemplating eternity. The other alternative is that he could be lying there for an eternity. If your cats lie there for an eternity then they would end up with very sore briskets.
If cats can contemplate eternity we can never know anything about it. All we can do is observe their behaviour, brisket and all.

[Wondergirl]

Oh I see, he is lying on his side contemplating eternity. The other alternative is that he could be lying there for an eternity. If your cats lie there for an eternity then they would end up with very sore briskets.

No, he is not lying on his side.

He isn't contemplating anything, even eternity. He is in the Moment, the Now. There is no Past or Future, just Now.

Look at my avatar. I've changed it to Lady Jane Grey sitting on her brisket.

[TUT317]

Hi wondergirl

Interesting isn't it. When a cat is on her side she is lying on her brisket, but when she is on her sternum she is sitting on her brisket.
When you get to may age; you see one brisket you've seen them all.

[Wondergirl]

Hi wondergirl

Interesting isn't it. When a cat is on her side she is lying on her brisket, but when she is on her sternum she is sitting on her brisket.
When you get to may age; you see one brisket you've seen them all.

When a cat is lying on its side, it is lying on its side, not its brisket. If she were lying on her sternum, she would be tipped forward with her face touching the floor.

You must not be a cat person or an anatomy person.

[Maggie 3]

God the Father, God the Son, and
God the Spirit. They have no beginning or no end. That's the way it is .

Maggie 3

[rockie100]

Col 1:15, 16 Calls Jesus the first-born of all creation. Indicating Jesus did have a beginning.

[TUT317]

God the Father, God the Son, and
God the Spirit. They have no beginning or no end. That's the way it is .

Maggie 3

Hello Maggie 3

My understanding of ItsUp2Me's original question seemed to show confusion about the nature of time. As far as I can tell there was a belief that there are two types of time. In this regard time seems to create a popular illusion. There is the time we normally experience and a special category of time reserved for, 'higher realities'.

Kant argues that even though time and space are prior to experience, we cannot separate time and space from experience. Therefore, when we talk about religious matters they are always couched in the language of experience e.g.. Beginnings, ends, infinity.

As far as the trinity is concerned I don't see it being referred to in the original question.

[TUT317]

Col 1:15, 16 Calls Jesus the first-born of all creation. Indicating Jesus did have a beginning.

Hello rockie100,

I don't see this as a problem. Jesus was born a man therefore, he existed in time and space as we know it.

As far as creation is concerned Kant argues that if the world didn't have a beginning then for every moment in time an eternity would have lapsed.

[TUT317]

As I understand, God was the beginning and God is the end, i.e, Alpha and Omega (Revelations 8:1). The period in question is called time.
However, as I understand, eternity has no beginning, nor does it have an end. Thus, it existed before the beginning of time and will continue after the end of time.

To put it another way, take a pencil and a blank sheet of paper. Place the point of the pencil on the paper and draw a circle, which is to extend the point 360 degrees back to its point of origin. We call the initial point the beginning of the circle and the reconnecting point the end of the circle. Yet when we look at it there is no beginning nor is there an end. We have created a continuous loop. But have we? I say no. We have created nothing but a mere tracing of the circle. It was there before we placed the pencil at the initial point. We could not see it, but we conceived of it. There was no beginning or end. This is the same as eternity. Time was the period that it took to trace from point A to point B. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to it as point A to point Z, or Alpha to Omega. This is the period God deals with--Alpha to Omega.

Now, back to my original question: what was there before Alpha and Omega?

I would like to have another go at answering this question, but from a different angle.


As far as the period Alpha to Omega is concerned, this is pretty much self -evident. It is the time and space we are all familiar with and it is something that exist in front of us each day. We can move forward backwards up or down in a certain time frame. For example, I have an appointment at a certain location at at 2 pm in a certain building on the 3rd floor. This covers movement forwards, sideways and upwards and time as well. This is common sense. Well, Kant says that common sense is WRONG.

For Kant time and space is something that does not exist ,"out there".
Rather, it exists only in our minds. It is something that we necessarily impose on our experiences.

If Kant is wrong and time and space is an objective thing which exists independently of any person view then, ItsUp2Me's question regarding what existed before Alpha and Omega is a legitimate question.

On the other hand, if time and space is a concept of the mind, as Kant says, then ItsUp2Me's question is not legitimate. Things like beginning, end, infinity and eternity are things that cannot be determined by us.
We are wasting out time even thinking about them because we cannot shake off experience. In other words, our answers will always be couched in experience.

This is Kant's argument in three paragraphs... hmmm

[ItsUp2Me]

I think we might do well to put Kant aside for a time and attempt to do some original thinking about the matter of before and after Alpha and Omega.

Our thinking on such matters, whether its conceptual or otherwise, is an indication of the degree of our ungodliness. If man is made in the image of God he can never see or understand himself. He can look into a conceptual mirror and see what he perceives to be his own image and imagine that this is also the image of God. However, there's that fuzzy zone, the twilight zone if you please, between himself and the mirror. What does that space contain and what is its meaning? This would be a sort of inverse of the outside of Alpha and Omega concept. It is ungodly! Therefore, in polite society we must not think of it, and never should be discuss it. To do otherwise will label ourselves as ungodly to our fellows.

Your answer seemed to invite disagreement with Kant's "argument in three paragraphs." So there.
_______
ItsUp2Me

[Wondergirl]

If man is made in the image of God he can never see or understand himself. He can look into a conceptual mirror and see what he perceives to be his own image and imagine that this is also the image of God.

"Image of God" (Imago Dei) has nothing to do with physical appearance as what one would see in a mirror. It refers to God's own self-expression through humankind (and all that that means), and to God's love for humankind (and all that that means).

The very fact that man is made in the image of God means that he can understand himself. As Wikipedia so neatly puts it: "Humans differ from all other creatures because of the self-reflective, rational nature of their thought processes - their capacity for abstract, symbolic as well as concrete deliberation and decision-making. This capacity gives the human a centeredness and completeness which allows the possibility for self-actualization and participation in a sacred reality."

[ItsUp2Me]

Dear, I'm afraid you and I are operating on different wave lengths. Where I am coming from is a rather complex metaphorical platform situated outside the scheme of what we humans call reality. It's like we don't really exist as most people think they exist. We are more or less in a dream state, recalling our interactive life experiences from another existential state. I am not sure this adequately describes what I am attempting to communicate, but hopefully it will bring you some closer to the jest of my thinking.

[NeedKarma]

Dear, I'm afraid you and I are operating on different wave lengths. Where I am coming from is a rather complex metaphorical platform situated outside the scheme of what we humans call reality. It's like we don't really exist as most people think they exist. We are more or less in a dream state, recalling our interactive life experiences from another existential state. I am not sure this adequately describes what I am attempting to communicate, but hopefully it will bring you some closer to the jest of my thinking.

If you are in some alternate reality then there isn't any way for the rest of us to understand you perfectly.

[ItsUp2Me]

You are saying, then, that you do not understand the meaning of the term, metaphorical platform? This entire exchange is an exploratiion of a some great stroke of luck that we are all born of a cosmic uterine lottery making us different from anything we have previously imgined. I have chosen to embrace it and nurture the freedoms it represents as well as the responsibilities it requires. Granted, it is borderline insanity!