[sdrose]

I've gotten conflicting advice from different electricians. We have a 40 year-old house with original 100 amp panel. It's about 1800 sf. I think we have the usual demands for a family of 4, 2 tv's, stereo, 3 laptops, printer, washer, dishwasher, plus a pool pump and filter (no heat or spa), etc. Some professionals have told us that replacing with a new 100 amp panel, others have said we need to upgrade. We have occasional dimming of lights, frequent trips of the breaker on a particular circuit. Last straw was Christmas night when the lights went out in the dining room just as we sat down to dinner. That switch now seems to be dead.

I should state that I am not a DIY person and am pretty much ignorant of all things electrical. Thanks for any advice.

Julia
San Diego

[tkrussell]

To do a proper load calculation , need to know type of heat, wattage of any electric heat, size of any air conditioning, any other major electric appliances, such as water heater, dryer, range. Without knowing those items, I would only be guessing.

The problems you mention could be isolated issues.

Lights flickering, could be an appliance, such as a refrigerator on a lighting circuit, or could be a loose connection in a circuit, panel, meter, or at the utiilty. One circuit tripping most likely is an overload, but need to know what is on the circuit.

You too vague with the symptoms and what is affected for anyone here to be certain to the cause. Of course, that is why you called in a pro, several apparently, and getting conflicting advice.

Unfortunately, not all electricians are created equal. Some are more knowledgeable than others, some are more into selling the most for more bucks. I realize it is difficult to weed out the nonsense and just get the truth.

A 40 year old home will have a few issues with poor connections, worn out fuses or breakers, etc. Some electricians may not see the worth of trying to diagnosis the problems, think just change the service will solve everything. Some may think, and you may agree, to spend a few hours to checking out the problems will only rack up billable hours, and just end up thinking changing the service will be the solution. You end up paying for labor hours that could be for nothng.

So, I am sure I said everything you already have experienced.

Where do you go from here? You need to make a judgement on which electrician to believe, and trust. Sometimes a call to the local inspector for a referral, Better Business Bureau, Borad of Consumer Protection in your city or state, can help determine which contractor to use.

If you can provide the detail needed, we can do a load calc here to size the service. If you can provide more details about the symptoms, and what is affected, perhaps we can arrive at what the problems are.

This is the best I can offer to get started helping you.

[stanfortyman]

I'll add that regardless of the load calculation I would NEVER suggest a 100A service replacement on a house that big. Yes, it's not really BIG, but it is big enough and well used enough to not even consider replacing a 100a with a 100a IMO.

Also, the things you describe will NOT typically be solved with a service replacement or upgrade. These are likely branch circuit issues. A service upgrade will allow you future expansion to do almost anything you want.

[sdrose]

Thanks so much for such quick responses. I appreciate all the input.

Our heat, water heater, stovetop, and dryer are all gas. We don't have A/C. We have an electric wall oven that doesn't get a lot of use. We have a 1000 watt microwave, a coffeemaker, and espresso machine, all get frequent use. With 3 females in the house, we have hair dryers and other electric hair appliances going on almost a daily basis.

I'm inclined to the "more is better" school, so am leaning toward upgrading. But it's definitely more expensive and involved (trenching from the street to the box, permits, etc.) which is why I'm here. If it makes any difference, we have a Zinsco panel and parts are getting harder to find. Thanks again!

[KISS]

I gues syou know about this: Zinsco Sylvania Kearney Electrical Panel and Circuit Breaker Hazards, Failures, Inspection, Detection, Repair, Replacement - Sylvania Zinsco circuit breakers and panel hazards

You may be able to take a two part upgrade. Upgrade the service panel to 200 A, but replace the main breaker to 100 A. Might cost you $150-$200 incremental cost. Just save the 200 A breaker.

Then do the rest of the upgrade at a later time. Talk to your electrician. You could also put a fused disconnect, again changing the rating of the breaker and upgrading later.

It really depends on the setup.

The Zinsco panel has to go.

GFCI breakers are relatively expensive and a new breaker which is extremely expensive is goingto be required in the 2009 code for just about every circuit in a house. It's a combination GFCI and ARC fault breaker.

GFCI - trips on leakage currents (kitchens, baths and outside are usual locations)

AFCI's are arc fault breakers. It looks for a "spark signature" ad trips based on that. Was required in living room and bedroom spaces

Since your panel is Zinsco, your problems may well be related to that.

[tkrussell]

While I agree with Stan, any new service change should be no smaller than a 200 amp, that is a general statement, and the particular situation needs to be considered.

Since you have an underground service entrance, upgrading to 200 amp would be expensive, as you mention, due to trenching, new underground cable, etc.

This of course, assumes the existing feeder is only sized for 100 amp. Something to look at, what size is the existing feeder? It may be large enough already to handle 200 amp.

If not, then at least change out the panel, new meter, etc with new 100 amp equipment. Appears that your 100 amp service is sufficient for your home.

Keep in mind, changing the panel and other related service equipment may or may not solve the issues you mentioned, certainly not the one circuit breaker that trips. Probably need a new circuit or two added to reduce the load on that one circuit. The flickering lighting may get eliminated by upgrading by eliminating a poor connection, may not if there is a motor load on a lighting circuit.

[tkrussell]

By the way,

GFCI breakers are relatively expensive and a new breaker which is extremely expensive is goingto be required in the 2009 code for just about every circuit in a house.

The National Electric Code is revised every three years,the next edition is due in 2011.

[johnmprince]

A 100 amp service can supply an easy 20,000 watts. If you ever draw 15,000 I'd be amazed. Do a little adding up of what you think is possible and I think that the thing to do is change the panel, at the most. I think your problems are branch circuit related, not the service.

[sdrose]

Thanks for all the input. I'll have to do a survey and add up our usage. You folks are a big help.

[Dan-the-Contractor]

I have been an electrician 30 years. Saying that one should never replace a 100A service with another 100A service and should always upgrade to a 200A service is NOT a good or useful statement.

If you are used to dealing with homes in an area with major tempurature differences between winter and summer and are mainly electric dependent a 200A service is generally called for.

Since the home in question is in San Diego with a mild climate the chances of a 1800sf home needing a 200A service are 50/50.

A particular breaker tripping on a branch circuit indicates that there is an overload or a short in that branch or in some cases a bad 15 or 20 amp breaker. A service uprade would certainly NOT usually be called for in that case.

Many opportunistic & unethical workmen and conrtractors will tell customers that they need an upgrade or panel
Chage where it is not so. Some even tell customers that they need to change out a Zinsco or FPE panel where it is not needed in every case.

I tell customers that any person of average intelligence can tell if the situation logically demands a new main panel or a larger one by using the information available.

[stanfortyman]

Wow Dan, some really bold statements from someone who claims to be a 30 year veteran electrician.

So you really and truly think an 1800 sq/ft home in So Cal is just fine with a 100A brand new service? I can safely assume you install quite a few sub-panels in your world.
A 100A panel typically will have 20-24 breakers/circuits. 100A 32 circuit panels are pretty rare.
If anything a 200A service will afford any future upgrades/improvements with no worry about panel space or service capacity.
For the SMALL difference in price a 200A service is far more economical that simply re-installing a 100A with the very real chance that a sub-panel will be needed in the future.
I hardly call this "opportunistic or unethical".

Another issues is resale. Homes with 100A services are typically called into question by realtors and home inspectors. This is not my doing, it is just how it is.


Also, the problems and dangers associated with FPE and Zinsco are many, documented and very real. If you do not know this or are not willing to acknowledge this I would say you are in the very small minority. For what reason I have no idea.
For you to suggest as much says a lot about your real world experience.

[Dan-the-Contractor]

1. I don't know your backround but will give you credit for having experience equal to mine.

My response was based upon a blanket statement that I saw that is inappropriate.
I don't know where you live and work. I am keeping in mind that our outlook and the basis for many choices can be very different based upon local conditions.

2. I completely agree with you about the space issue.
I always shoot for a reserve of 20-25 % of open breaker spaces wherever feasible to allow for addition of future circuits.

Older 100A service panels are usually smaller and allow for fewer circuits than the newer 100A versions.
200A rated panels can often be the best choice but are not always.

The cost difference can be considerable where the difficulty of instaling the larger 200A rated panels is much greater.

3. As regards your comment;
"Another issues is resale. Homes with 100A services are typically called into question by realtors and home inspectors. This is not my doing, it is just how it is."

In my experience I have VERY SELDOM heard any realtor or home inspector make a comment about a 100A service. Maybe it has do with where we live and work. I have lived and worked throughout central California.
In those cases where the size of the home indicates that it really should be supplied with a 200A main I have recommended that measure but home inspectors and realtors (here) just don't seem to give it a thought.

In a time when appliances are getting more efficient the advantages of 200A services are not always necessary.
In the PG&E utility area where I am the fees, delays and paperwork associated with moving up to a 200A supply are now much greater than they were a few years ago along with the cost to the customer.

4. I have seen and experienced the problems with Zinsco and FPE equipment since 1976. They are significant. I have researched the topics and associated reports and documentation. In most cases they are not some emergency that requires that they be replaced instantly or in every case. This is another place where blanket or absolute statements are not helpful or practical. I would suggest that using the words "generally recommend(ed)" would be a better way to express some things and not create an absolute statement.
Very sincerely,
Dan Bronson

[stanfortyman]

You make some valid points Dan. I don't agree with them all, but valid nonetheless.

I will say regarding the FPE/Zinsco issue. No one is saying this is always an "emergency" situation. I AM saying it IS always a good idea to recommend replacing ANY Zinsco or FPE panel.