[dwashbur]

• Συγχαρητήρια

Χαίρε, αδελφέ

(greetings, brother!)

we are both Christians… Not only, you are undoubtedly a better one than I am

I agree we're both Christians, but don't bet the farm on that last part!

[Athos]

Dear Athos (are you a relative of Aramis or Portos?)

Thank you for your fine piece of wisdom! It is obvious to me now I have let myself being involved into a silly debate as you point out. However, one of my many faults, defects or flaws is that I tend to dislike being defeated in any intelectual debate of sorts.

However, the danger of further debating on this subject is gone. Common sense -which happens to be less common than most people think- has come back aided by the fact I have been able to trace down some of the credentials my previous opponent has.

With the end result I have sent him a thread which you may see, if you wish, right here.

I am sorry for the valuable minutes you have lost trying to understand how 2 perfectly normal people have been able to waste so much time on something "silly" as tattoos!

Gromitt82

Yes, my "Athos" refers to the 3 Musketeers. Some time ago, one of the more erudite members here thought it referred to Mt. Athos - the peninsula jutting out into the Aegean Sea and inhabited by Orthodox monks.

A good friend of mine who was a Trappist monk, Basil Pennington - now deceased - spent a year on Mt. Athos and wrote an interesting book about his experience.

As an educated European from Spain, you may be aware of Basil who was translated into many languages. If not, Mt. Athos would not be unfamiliar to you.

I note that Catalan is your original language. Thomas Merton was born in a Catalan-speaking area of France just north of the Pyrenees.

I hope that you will continue to post here from time to time. Like many internet boards, intelligence is a prized, sometimes rare, commodity.

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

[gromitt82]

Χαίρε, αδελφέ

(greetings, brother!)



I agree we're both Christians, but don't bet the farm on that last part!

Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ, Dave,

What matters, I think, is that we are both on the same boat and even it may have different decks or stateroom classes, we are ALL hoping to arrive one day to the same Harbor
It is undoubtedly there where our many questions will at last be answered and where we should ALL be speaking the same language, hopefully Aramaic!
Regards
Claude

PS: How do you write "thank you very much" in Aramaic?

[gromitt82]

Yes, my "Athos" refers to the 3 Musketeers. Some time ago, one of the more erudite members here thought it referred to Mt. Athos - the peninsula jutting out into the Aegean Sea and inhabited by Orthodox monks.

A good friend of mine who was a Trappist monk, Basil Pennington - now deceased - spent a year on Mt. Athos and wrote an interesting book about his experience.

As an educated European from Spain, you may be aware of Basil who was translated into many languages. If not, Mt. Athos would not be unfamiliar to you.

I note that Catalan is your original language. Thomas Merton was born in a Catalan-speaking area of France just north of the Pyrenees.

I hope that you will continue to post here from time to time. Like many internet boards, intelligence is a prized, sometimes rare, commodity.

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

Well, probably said member was more knowledgeable in Geography than in Literature. I am sure that in Spain, most of those who know the names of the 3 Musketeers (who, as you know, were actually 4) is because they have seen the movie where Gene Kelly was playing the role of D’Artagnan, but few have actually read the splendid novel of Alexandre Dumas, Sr. and its sequels: “twenty years after” and “the Vicomte of Bragelonne”.

As for Mt. Athos, or the “Holy Mountain”, as many Greeks like to commonly refer to it, unfortunately I have never been there, even though I have been close to it, on my way to Thessaloniki (the administrative capital of Macedonia and Thrace). Problem is that I was always on business and could not spare the time to visit some of the monasteries.

I have always been very interested in the Orthodox branch of Christianity. I hope the Pope will not read this but I would say that a little bit more true “ecumenism “on our side would not hurt anybody and would most probably please our “Big Boss”…

But, alas! The high dignitaries of our RC Church are not necessarily exempt of a fair amount of arrogance…!

My wife’s cousin, the Archbishop of Tarragona, Dr. Joseph Pont I Gol (1907-1995) gave me a little book written by Dom. Basil Pennington, titled “Daily we follow Him: Learning Discipleship from Peter” and advised me to read it, which I have not yet. Not only, I am ashamed to say, that a few years ago, at a Book Fair, in Barcelona, a bought another book by him “La oración centrante” (Centering Prayer), which is sleeping, next to the other, somewhere in my library. It is a shame to see the amount of books I have I will never read because my eyes are getting more tired, every year!

When I was “young and handsome” I had to travel all over the world to earn a living, so I read mostly on planes and in hotel rooms. I kept buying books, though, for I always thought that a good book is a “man’s most loyal friend”.

Spare time was, obviously, devoted to my wife and sons, whom I could not see as much as I wanted. When I retired, I started to devour books but then I became involved in other tasks such as helping another bishop, friend of mine, to translate St. Thomas Aquinas, or investigating the origin of my language. So, here I am, losing sight but still surrounded by hundreds of loyal friends… and by my wife, the same one, after 61 years of happy marriage.

Re. rapist monk Thomas Merton I became acquainted with his well gained reputation, during our yearly visits to Prades, where he was born.

In the mid fifties, while General Franco was ruling in Spain, one of the world’s most famous cellists, Pau Casals, was an ardent supporter of the Republican government in the exile. Casals had vowed never to return to Spain until our democracy could not be restored. So he settled in the town of Prades (Prada de Conflent, in French) because if was so close to the Catalonia he loved, and because he, like many Catalans supporters of its utopian independence, Prades is also part of North Catalonia, which stretches all over the Roussillon (Dept. of Pyrenees Orientales).

During the month of August, Casals used to organize periodical concerts in Prades, which were attended by thousands (us, for instance) and were a true joy to listen to (especially, when he played J.S.Bach)...

And this is why I became acquainted with Fr. Thomas Merton.

I may only add, that since Casals passed away in Puerto Rico (his mother was a Portoricain) almost every year, in summer time, Prades celebrates the Pau Casals festival, which, reputed cellists like Matislaw Rostropovich (1927-2007), use to also attend.

Prades is a beautiful part of the French side of the Pyrenees, close to another interesting little town, the mysterious Rennes-le-Chateau, whose history I may refer some other time to.

Best regards
Gromitt82

[dwashbur]

I trust that you and Dwashbur, another excellent contributor here, will not now flame on who is the most humble. :)

I suppose we could start such a banter, just to irritate you :D

[cutiec]

I don't think it is a sin I think it is a sin to damage your vody and get other things but to repersent your religion is a different thing

[samdarwen]

Lord have Mercy on our souls
Jesus Christ was crucified and the Crucifixion was a tool used thousands of years so I am not sure why is the cross a simple to Christianity unless we believe in King Constantine’s dream more than three hundred years on the Crucifixion, however; it is not the question
If you a human like us, then we all are sinner, after all, we just humans. Now; a tattoo today is a sign of culture in some places and not necessary a bad thing and even when God asked the Jews not to mark themselves at the time of the killings which God send his angels to do on his behalf; he asked them to mark their houses with blood (a Scurfy). Now I am not sure why something beautiful like that could be a sin when it do not harm your body which is the reason why it was not a likely thing back in the time, because today there is since and medical treatments so no longer tattoos hurt our bodies. I would understand it back then where people were hurt when did that and infection and even maybe death happen, but today? No!
A tattoo of a cross is your choice but I hope it is something you see beautiful not a sign of religious because a sign of religious is more than a cross; it is what we do, not what we say….

Be blessed

Sam

[jp12345]

Ok, look. What does it matter?

I hope you all realize that all sins are the same to Gods eyes.
What if I told you yes? What would you do?
If you would just not get them,
Explain why you lied the last time if you knew it was wrong?
Everyone sins AT LEAST 1 time in their life (except Jesus).
So if you know that you repented and God forgave you,
Why would you care if it's a sin? Wouldn't God
Forgive you anyway?
I'm not saying you have to get tattoos. It's graffiti on the temple of God.
That's like saying "Is lying a sin?"
If somebody said yes, would you never lie for the rest of your life? I doubt it for 99% of you, unless you're Abraham Lincoln or somebody that never lied.

[bear04]

I am also Baptist. Before I got mine I read some of the verses people have quoted on here. If I based my decision on these verses I would not shave since the verse before Leviticus 19:28 (19:27) says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard". I believe there is also a verse that says not to mix what you plant in your crops or materials you make your clothes out of. It boils down to personal conviction. Between you and God. A lot of people, Pastors and others, pull out 1 verse to back up their personal beliefs. They don't like tattoo's or body piercings so they find something to back that up. Also, I hope whoever is saying a tattoo is a sin does not have any body piercings, including earrings. It is between you and God. Nobody else. Anyone else is just passing on their personal feelings as truths. Probably the same people saying electric guitars and drums have no place in a church...

[classyT]

I am also Baptist. Before I got mine I read some of the verses people have quoted on here. If I based my decision on these verses I would not shave since the verse before Leviticus 19:28 (19:27) says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard". I believe there is also a verse that says not to mix what you plant in your crops or materials you make your clothes out of. It boils down to personal conviction. Between you and God. A lot of people, Pastors and others, pull out 1 verse to back up their personal beliefs. They don't like tattoo's or body piercings so they find something to back that up. Also, I hope whoever is saying a tattoo is a sin does not have any body piercings, including earrings. It is between you and God. Nobody else. Anyone else is just passing on their personal feelings as truths. Probably the same people saying electric guitars and drums have no place in a church...

Unbelievable that people still mix law with Grace. It is embarrassing at best. Having said that... we are to be in this world not OF this world. As long as I don't look like I belong to this present world in how I speak, what I listen to... or what I chose to look like as a Christian it is all good. We are called to be salt and light. I would no more wear long dresses and covering on my head to make someone thirsty for Christ than I would put a tattoo of a snake down my arms. I want people to see Christ... not self. BOTH are self. But that's just me.

[nicholsjj]

I will be making my first post on here even though I am sure that the OP has already maade the choice on whether or not to get the tattoo. I only want to point out one thing that has never been talked about in any conversation that I have looked at on if getting a tattoo is a sin. In Leviticus 19:28 the verse states that A person should not put marks on them for those that are dead. Well JESUS IS RISEN! (I put that in caps because it is the most important thing in my sinful life.) Is Jesus has risen then he Defeated death so therefore IMO getting a tattoo to honor Jesus victory at Calvary is not in violation of Leviticus 19:28. This is just strictly my opinion as I am not God nor do I even deserve interperting his word.(I only will because I am filled with the Holy Spirt to Guide me). I just want to add this to Remind people that Jesus DEFEATED death so I feel that it is OK.

With Love, Forgivness, and Peace
nicholsjj

[samevans-roland]

The original manuscript has the word torrah in it over fifty times torrah can mean rules or instructions, pretty much I believe the bible is a guideline to a better life, but some people take it so hardcore that a war starts over religion yet again. To answer the question no I think its fine to get a tattoo of a cross for god gave you the power of free will, your not going to hell just cause you got a tattoo, and if people judge you at your church remember the bible says those who judge shall be judged

[russellmcbean]

A tattoo marks the skin, not the soul. Mine is a reminder of God's grace to me a sinner. And in the world when people ask me what it means I tell them the truth. Yes a cross hangs upside down on my chest, but it is for the reminder I am not worthy to bare His mark, and the cool part is when I see it on my chest it is upright a constant reminder of His love and mercy. The broken angel wing represents sin and desire and it leading to death, the full wing wrapping around me represent God's protection. The feathers have bible verses in them and the sword is on fire because His word is living.

If I could take a picture and post it on here I would.

Much love to my brothers and sisters, and remember God chose all the people not just the ones with clean skin and pure hearts. True repentance is key, as He told us "go and sin no more"

[biblesire]

Read text in context, leviticus was moses teaching the israelites laws from god, its not relevant to present times.
If you think it is then you should try and follow other leviticus verses which say you shouldn't trim sides of your beard or wear clothes with two types of material example cotton and polyester on same clothes.
I'm baptist and I have a tattoo and its I know its fine to have it because of READING TEXT IN CONTEXT

[anillaK7]

It's true Leviticus 19 says not to mark yourself. If you believe in following the letter of the law, you cannot get a tattoo. 6 verses after God tell us not to eat meat that isn't kosher.

I'm guessing somewhere along the line, our astute christian ancestors realized bacon was just too tasty to continue following that foney bologna old jewish "custom".

The moral of my story is - if you wear cotton blends and eat pork, you're already going to hell. Might as well show Jesus and everyone else how much you love him while you're doing it with your cross tattoo.

[classyT]

It's true Leviticus 19 says not to mark yourself. If you believe in following the letter of the law, you cannot get a tattoo. 6 verses after God tell us not to eat meat that isn't kosher.

I'm guessing somewhere along the line, our astute christian ancestors realized bacon was just too tasty to continue following that foney bologna old jewish "custom".

The moral of my story is - if you wear cotton blends and eat pork, you're already going to hell. Might as well show Jesus and everyone else how much you love him while you're doing it with your cross tattoo.

I agree we are NOT under the law any longer. I am really really big on getting that. Having said that, we are in this world not of this world. Sometimes there are things even the sinful world looks down upon. Marking your bodies happens to be one of them for some people. Non Christians can think them ungodly and wrong. We are FREE in Christ Jesus... but sometimes it just isn't the best thing to do for a testimony. Is it a sin? NO. Is it STILL considered wrong.. by the world itself? Sometimes, yes it is. Whatsoever is done without faith is sin.(Romans) If someone doesn't have a conscience about it... for that person it is OK. For the ones that cannot do it in good faith... don't. All things are lawful for the Christian, all things are not expedient. Not my words... but the Apostle Paul.

[dwashbur]

I agree we are NOT under the law any longer. I am really really big on getting that. Having said that, we are in this world not of this world. Sometimes there are things even the sinful world looks down upon. Marking your bodies happens to be one of them for some people. Non Christians can think them ungodly and wrong. We are FREE in Christ Jesus...but sometimes it just isn't the best thing to do for a testimony. Is it a sin? NO. Is it STILL considered wrong..by the world itself? Sometimes, yes it is. Whatsoever is done without faith is sin.(Romans) If someone doesn't have a conscience about it... for that person it is ok. For the ones that cannot do it in good faith...don't. All things are lawful for the Christian, all things are not expedient. Not my words...but the Apostle Paul.

Well said.

[Timmmmmmm]

At that time in history (Leviticus), "marking" your body was a pagan practice. Their tattoos were VERY different than how we tattoo today. Not only was it pagan, it was not safe. That aside, we cannot live our lives against tattoos because it used to represent paganism. The wedding ring is originally pagan. The church steeple is from pagan origin. Almost all our holidays were originally pagan, including church buildings as well. Now, Christmas isn't viewed as pagan at all... we use it as a time to remember Christ's sacrifice. The church buildings aren't associated with other dieties; we worship the Lord there, and pray for His blessing. The wedding ring is perhaps one of the most sacred vows, often made in a church, before God. And God Himself said that marriage between a man and a woman is a beautiful thing... does it become un-beautiful because we have a piece of metal on our fingers? No. He said "make a joyful noise unto the Lord", he did not say "be perfect at singing; only sing hymns from Luther's timeframe." We are IN this world, not of it, so why do I hear all these Christians caring so much that the non-believers will look down on them? Don't they already?

If you are getting that tattoo to honour God, then it is to honour God, NOT because of what the world will think.
If you are getting that tattoo (or not) because of what the world will think, then it is not to honour God, but to appease the very people we should be making a ministry to.

I play Christian death metal. BOTH Christians AND non-Christians look down on it and me because of it, but I am spreading the Word of God the best I know how. Do you know why it doesn't get me down that Christians and non-believers look down on me? Because I am doing it for the Lord, not for man.

Look inside yourself; do you go to a church to worship God, or to practice Paganism? Why do you celebrate Christmas? Why do you wear that wedding band? Why are you getting that cross tattoo?

There are three categories:
1. Doing something that honours God.
2. Doing something that is neutral.
3. Doing something that is sinful.

Live your life accordingly and for God, not what people think of you. God warns about just going through the motions anyway.

[Sammy little]

Hi there. I attend church regularly and love the Lord and have wanted a tattoo for of the cross for over 20 years. However because the church has frowned on it I don't have one.
What a poor witness to let friends know we would love a tattoo but the church wouldn't like it.
Good people and bad people have tattoos. For me its about motive and we are accountable to God for our actions.
At 61 Im now going to have a tattoo of the cross and guess what? My relationship with God hasn't changed.

[freeman4]

Snippy07,

In the OT under the Law the Lord told the Jewish people not to mark on their bodies.
Check out Leviticus 19:28

"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

This is the verse that someone might use to suggest it is a SIN. BUT we are no longer under the law...we live on this side of the cross under Grace. You will find nothing in the NT to suggest it is a sin.

I think of this verse that Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10

"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

Personally I wouldn't have one although I don't think it is a sin. I guess I don't like what tattoo's represent to the world in general.

However ,any tattoo that would be dishonoring to the Lord...such as satanic symbols and sexual stuff..well I think it goes without saying would be wrong for a Christian to put on their body.

You say we are not under the Law. Why did Jesus say that one dotting of a I or one crossing of a t would not be taken from the Law until ALL be fulfilled.

People in Old Testament times kept a physical Law and when one would sin they would have to atone for that sin by a sacrifice. They had to physically show repentance.

Jesus was the last sacrifice and it was one time and for all. You are still under the Laws of God but they are now kept in the spirit. When one is broken go to Christ in prayer and He will take care of it, no physical sacrifice.

Do you Kill, steel, commit adultery, theses are still the Laws of God and they are not done away.