[jamlove]

Hello all, hope you can offer some trade secrets and help me out here...

This weekend I helped a friend add a light fixture in his remodeled basement. The project was simple and straightforward (ha ha ha). A hole in the wall exposed a modern 12/2 line feeding an outlet. We removed the outlet, and used that supply line as the power to the switch, which controlled the new fixture.

After wiring everything, I turned the power back on and tested the light. It did not work.

Turned the power back off and double-checked all my wiring. Everything looked OK. So I turned the power back on, and asked my friend if he was sure that outlet we'd removed DID work. He said yes. But I thought I should test for voltage at my new switch. Since my voltmeter is lent out, I did an ill-advised test: touching hot to ground with power on.

The first test, hot to ground, NOTHING happened. I thought "oh, we don't have power here after all". But then I tried hot to Neutral, and it sparked and popped the breaker.

So now I knew:
1) the circuit, even though it has a ground wire, is not properly grounded.
2) we DO have voltage at our switch, so the light fixture must be messed up.

Anyway, I turned power back off, rewired my light fixture (flourescent) again, and found that my neutral wasn't on as good as it should've been. Probably why it didn't work. I twisted it on much better, knowing it would work now.

Turned the breaker back on: nothing.

But NOW, the outlet and lights on the same circuit weren't working either! They had been before we started.

So I thought: I've blown the breaker. It must be old and that was its last trip.

Went and bought a new breaker. These are modern Seimens breakers, but note: the house was originally Knob & tube, and some of it is still there.

The new breaker did not work, but after installing it we discovered another outlet on the same branch (hadn't checked it before) which WAS working.

So now we did a THOROUGH survey of the whole basement room, mapping the whole branch. We found that there are a total of 4 outlets and 2 fixtures (including my new one) on this branch. Only one outlet, the one closest to the power panel, is working. The others are dead.

This is where it got UGLY. I started cutting exploratory holes in the walls, since this basement was totally finished out. I discovered what you've probably just guessed: Junction Boxes hidden under the drywall! Junctions from old knob & tube ALUMINUM wire to newer 12/2. This renovation appears to have been done years before the basement was finished.

Anyway, after cutting seven holes in the walls and tracing as far as I could, I found the box where two lines exit: one goes to the working outlet on the branch, and the other exits toward the side of the room with all the non-working stuff.

The best part: We CANNOT access that box. It's an old exterior light, which is now covered by vinyl siding!! And I can't reach it from the interior, it's in a crevice.

Here's another fun thing about the remaining three non-working outlets: One is wired BACKWARDS, and all three are TERMINATIONS. That is, each of their boxes only has one set of wires coming in. THis means they are not connected in series, but rather a kind of hub-and-spoke type of thing... they must have multiple other hidden Junction boxes!!


MY QUESTION: (Help!) how do I find out what went wrong?

When I shorted the circuit, I blew something OTHER than the breaker. This worries me because it's not supposed to happen that way, right?

With the evidence I've found so far, it's clear that somebody was lazy, inexperienced, and DID NOT get a permit to do the electrical work. There's no way it would have passed... there are Free-Floating wires up in the ceiling, terminated with nipples, just laying there going to nothing. There are ungrounded circuits. Hidden inaccessible J-boxes.

Anyway: do I just need to keep cutting holes until I've exposed EVERY junction box, then open them all and find out what melted or popped off or what? Is there a trick?

Or, should I take this opportunity to rip all this junk out and run a brand new 12/2 all the way to the panel?

NOTE: I was worried about a shared neutral being blown out someplace not even on this branch... but everything else in the house currently WORKS. No other branches seem to have been affected (although a lot of them seem to be wired in a similar way)

Any tricks of the trade are really appreciated, and I thank you for reading all of this. I figured you guys must run into this sort of thing regularly.

Many thanks,

James

[tkrussell]

Sounds like someone had a typical basement, with junction boxes all over, then someone decided to cover all these boxes with sheetrock, and vinyl siding.

No, sorry, I have no tricks, besides not buryng junction boxes. Covering a box containing splices is a sure fire guarantee that something will fail.

Your best bet is like you stated:
Or, should I take this opportunity to rip all this junk out and run a brand new 12/2 all the way to the panel?

All the buried boxes and mis-wired devices need to go.

Wish I could be of more help, but sounds like you have a real mess.

[jamlove]

Thanks for the input tkrussell. You think I'm on the right track though, right? I mean, the short-out that happened, you think that popped a bad splice apart inside a junction box, or melted a wire, or something like that? Am I unaware of something else that I should be looking for?

I thought, if all the outlets were wired in series, that maybe the surge would have burnt one of them or something. But all outlets on this branch are terminations, so I don't see how that could be the cause.

My plan is to clean up as much of this as I practically can, and leave it to my friend to decide if he wants to rip ALL the drywall out and start clean.

Thanks again, looks like I have my work cut out for me.

My friend and I agree, though, that we're happy this problem was exposed now, rather than by something more disastrous. At least that's what we're telling ourselves to feel better! :)

[bhayne]

If you decide to replace the wiring go with a 15A breaker and wire with standared #14 gauge! Not only is it standard, it is easier to work with and less expensive.

If you use #12 gauge for lighting, I can assure you that if someone wants to modify things in the future, they'll see the #12 and think, "what was the guy thinking?". Then the modifications will be done with #14 not realizing that it is supplied by a 20A breaker!

[jamlove]

Follow up:

Last night I continued cutting holes in the wall, following the bad circuit, until I came to another hidden junction box. Inside here, I discovered what I thought I would: a splice had popped loose. The fine citizen who installed these splices DID NOT twist the wires together! They simply lined up three wires, screwed a nipple on, then wrapped the whole thing five times in electrical tape!

I could see evidence of an arc, which probably happened when I shorted the circuit. The wire was blackened but not melted. Looked like the shock of the arc had been just enough to dislodge this splice.

I think we were very lucky to have exposed this problem. I think that splice could have easily arced again, causing a fire.

The other thing I discovered: It was wired backwards! Hot to neutral, vice versa. This had not been evident before, because the only thing on the circuit was some incandescent lights. But with our new installation of a fluorescent, which does care, it became clear that the wires were wrong.

I opted not to replace the entire branch, YET. The homeowner, my friend, will make that call based on what he sees. But at the very least, we're leaving those junction boxes exposed when we patch the drywall.


QUESTION: Would you guys be concerned enough by that splice method, (and knowing it surely was done the same way in multiple other j-boxes), to go through the odyssey of removing all drywall, finding them all, and correcting them?

I feel like other splices like this could certainly fail in the same way, or worse, arc and cause a fire. There's no telling how many of them are in this remodeled basement.

All suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

[tkrussell]

Sounds like the connector was a small barrel about 1/4" long with a set screw in the side. These did not need the wires twisted. And typicall were wrapped with tape. Sounds like someone tried their best.

Trying to give a small amount of confidence in the splices, however, any buried splice is worth worry.

Better if all the boxes are covered with blank plates. Much worse if the splices are not covered.

Considering this is a basement, and juding the total amount of serious problems, I can only suggest all the wiring be exposed and repair all the splices, and miswires.

This place is an accident waiting to happen. Yes the cost can be, who knows, say $1000.00. Is the home worth that? Or someone's life?


Excellent job of exposing this, understanding the problems, and showing someone's criminal lack of respect for electrical wiring.

[jamlove]

TK, Yes I've seen those small barrel type connectors, but no, these guys used the common plastic nipples (with metal threading inside) without twisting the copper wires together. Ugh!

I'll pass your advice on to my friend. While he won't be excited, he'll surely respect the fact that it's better to fix it now!

Thanks again,

James

[bhayne]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Just a word of advice.

I've got a 40yr house and one receptacle doesn't work. It's a lot cheaper to blank it off and use another one than drill holes and tear my living room apart trying to find the source.

And if I started checking out all the other receptacles for problems, my wife would think I'm crazy. And if I paid an electrician $1000 to troubleshoot a non-existing problem, I'd be devorced!

If you suggested to me what you did to your friend our friendship would be over. BTW, what does your friend think of his demolished basement over a faulty receptacle? I can bet if he's married, his wife wants you gone!

[jamlove]

Quite the contrary, bhayne. My friend is extremely happy to have a very dangerous fire hazard located and removed from his home before it caused a tragedy.

[andrewcocke]

I have to agree with jamlove. When something like this happens to me, even if its not really dangerous, I will lie in bed at night wondering what it could be. I like to have a complete understanding of how my house works.

Case in point, had I not taken the time to rip all of the insulation down from my basement ceiling, because I suspected faulty wiring, I would have never discovered a 20 AMP breaker, feeding a #14 wire, which ran behind the said insulation, where on top of that, sat a splice right against my wooden subfloor with NO junctionbox. This splice used no wirenuts, just regular walmart electrical tape, out of this went a wire which fed the lights of the entire ground floor of the house, an air conditoner receptacle, washing machine, and TV set. I corrected this immediately.

As far as my wife goes, she is cool with my repairs. If she had a problem with it, she is free to leave. I always figured most women liked men who took pride in a job well done, and enjoyed having a man who kept an orderly house, properly maintained, even if it does mean tearing into a wall once in a while. Personaly, she loves it when I get all filthy working on a job, I think it turns her on. As long as its not sewer or drain related. :)

[bhayne]

When your bent on finding a problem, you probably will. The most likely place is in the mirror!

[labman]

How long has your friend been in the house? I don't know how long you have to find stuff and go back on the seller, but the seller is responsible to have everything meet at least the code in effect when it was installed. Much of what you describe never met code. The flip side to this, is you can live, and maybe die, with something, but be forced to pay to correct it when you sell. Your friend may need to talk to the lawyer that handled the closing on the house. He may be able to bring in the best electrical contractor in the area, and send the bill to whoever he bought the house from. Otherwise, he might be advised to let you straighten stuff out now while you are willing to work cheap and TK to advise you.

You have been around long enough to have seen my recommendations of a voltage detector. Among other things, you can trace hot wires through drywall with it. There are several brands. I have a GB Instruments GVD-505A, less than $15 at Home Depot. Touch it to a hot wire, and the end glows red.

[bhayne]

Since you have tampered with it, you have no recourse. It's your baby now!