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arcura · Mar 19, 2009, 02:19 PM

Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.
:confused:So, what biblical evidence is there for that? :confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

450donn · Mar 19, 2009, 02:52 PM

None!

arcura · Mar 19, 2009, 04:05 PM

Don,
Wrong,
One is that being a Christian you are referred to in the bible as a saint.
If someone asks you to pray to God for them would you refuse?
I think not.
I know that I would pray for them.
And there are other biblical indications of saint anctivies along those lines.
I want to know all that there are.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

450donn · Mar 20, 2009, 06:55 AM

Fred,
Sorry, I all this time have understood that the Catholic Church had to vote a person into saint hood. And then you were free to pray to/through them. If that is not what you were referring to then I apologize for not understanding.
In my Bible the concordance shows 8 times where the word saint is used.
Ps16:3, Da 7:22,Mt 27:52, Ac26:10, Ro8:27, ICo 6:2, Eph 2:19 and Rev 14:12.
None of which tell you to pray through anybody.

arcura · Mar 20, 2009, 05:35 PM

450donn, Yes the Catholic Church does say that certain people have become heavenly saints, and Jesus gave the power to do that to The Church.
I was referring to all saints.
Jesus Himself told us to pray for each other.
That means that He told us to be intermediaries for others.
Also look at what God told Job's friends to do about prayer.
He told them to ask Job to pray for them.
Jesus IS the supreme mediator.
When I pray to God, who is a trinity, for you and others I pray to The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The same when any saint prayes to God for us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

450donn · Mar 22, 2009, 09:27 AM

If you pray to Jesus or the holy spirit, how then do you reconcile that against MT 6? Where Jesus himself taught the disciples how to pray. OUR FATHER...

arcura · Mar 22, 2009, 02:58 PM

Donn.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all three beings in one God.
When you pray to one they all hear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay · Mar 23, 2009, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

donn.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all three beings in one God.
When you pray to one they all hear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe Christ taught us to pray to The Father. Just as He has shown us to do in ensample to His praying to The Father (Mt Olive) It is also written in scripture, and spoken to us by Christ. Christ said we could ask anything in His name to the Father...

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Christ has said ask in my name, and it will be given...This shows that Christ is the principle of power, yet Christ still gives all glory to The Father.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:15-16 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:20-21
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Originally Posted by arcura

Several denominations believe that it is OK (and even encouraged) to ask Saints to pray for us.

According to scripture a saint would be like Mose's brother Aaron. Of course he is no longer living.
Levit 11:43 references where after the law is respectfully unclean such as Aaron (psalms 106:16)

Who would you consider a saint? I consider a saint those in Christ (Phl 4:21)

Another example of saints are the angels... and we do not pray to angels!

captainpecan · Mar 23, 2009, 02:37 PM

I am not a religious person, but I am very spiritual. To be honest, the bible can be interpreted in so many different ways, you can pretty much put whatever meaning you want to it. But when you step back and look at the whole picture, it makes reference everywhere that god is in all of us, in everything, everywhere. My opinion is that when it comes to praying, it's the belief, and feelings behind what you are saying and asking for that is important. Not where you do it, or if you have someone do it for you. In other words, it's what you personally feel or believe that gets your thoughts and feeling projected. If you believe in your heart, you must speak through a saint, then your at absolutely right. On the other hand, if you believe in your heart that god is listening if you pray in your own bedroom, then you are also absolutely right.

I am however not good at quoting the bible, but this is how I view things, and how I really believe it is meant to be interpreted.

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 06:35 PM

If they are alive, plenty

If they are no longer alive - none. In fact scripture says that if they are dead, it is an abomination in the eyes of God to communicate with them.

arcura · Mar 23, 2009, 07:20 PM

sndbay
The Saints are NOT dead. Jesus said so.
The bodies of some are dead but they are alive in Christ in heaven Just like Moses and Elijah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay
The Saints are NOT dead. Jesus said so.
The bodies of some are dead but they are alive in Christ in heaven Just like Moses and Elijah.

Fred,

The word used in Deuteronomy is condemning speaking to the dead refers to being dead in the flesh.

BTW, as for Moses, what did God say about him?

Josh 1:1-2
1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, saying: 2 "Moses My servant is dead.
NKJV

Are you telling us that Moses, a servant of God, was not a saint?

arcura · Mar 23, 2009, 07:45 PM

Tj3,
I believe what Jesus said about that.
And that is that God is the God of the living, not the dead and Jesus was referring to people who HAD past this life.
"have you not read what was said to you by God,
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Thanks,

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I believe what Jesus said about that.
And that is that God is the God of the living, not the dead and Jesus was referring to people who HAD past this life.
"have you not read what was said to you by God,
'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Thanks,

Have you not read what God's word says about the dead saints?

Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
NKJV

arcura · Mar 23, 2009, 08:13 PM

The,
I have said whay I have said.
I believe what Jesus said.
Take it or forget it.

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tje,
I hace said whay I have said.
I believe what Jesus said.
Take it or forget it.

You can believe what you wish whether it is in scripture.

arcura · Mar 23, 2009, 08:33 PM

Tj3,
'What I believe is in Scripture as I quoted from Matthew 22.
Thanks

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
'What I believe is in Scripture as I quoted from Matthew 22.
Thanks

Which you took out of context. That passage is refuting those who deny the resurrection of the dead. It does not say that that we can ignore the prohibition against speaking to those who are dead in the flesh.

Matt 22:23-32
23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
NKJV

I note that you say that you accept this verse taken out of context, but you apparently do not accept these verses:

Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints.
NKJV

Josh 1:1-2
1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' assistant, saying: 2 "Moses My servant is dead.
NKJV

arcura · Mar 23, 2009, 09:58 PM

Tj3,
What Jesus said is clear.
Those dead of the body are alive in the Lord God.
Yes the living saints will die of the body but live in the Lord God.
If you don't mind (or even if you do) I'll believe what Jesus said.

Tj3 · Mar 23, 2009, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
What Jesus said is clear.
Those dead of the body are alive in the Lord God.
Yes the living saints will die of the body but live in the Lord God.
If you don't mind (or even if you do) I'll believe what Jesus said.

Then believe what he said in context. And believe other parts of the Bible. Believe what God says when He says when He condemns communicating with those who are dead in the flesh. You cannot take verses out of context (even out of the local context in the paragraph) and then claim that you believe what the Bible says.