[JoeT777]

The Tim LaHay's celebrated Left Behind series follow the essence of John Darby's theological beliefs of multiple 2nd comings of Christ. Theories in this vein require 3 to 5returns of Christ. Where in scripture does it talk about the 3rd or 4th “Second coming of Christ”? Of course there are also multiple versions of just how this will happen. We've got pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist. If the Bible “interprets itself,” how then do we discern which theories are “self-evident”. I don't want to be left behind, or do I!

And, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know that it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but the last "last day". Scriptures don't say the last day just before the last day, or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ's return will be on “THE LAST DAY.”

We do know the 2nd coming will be like the days of Noah, they (the bad guys) will be making marry up till the last day (Matt 24:36-38). In Noah's day it was those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). So, it was bad guys who were taken up in Matthew's gospel. A real contradiction left by Darby- and LaHay wants to "take up" the good guys?


JoeT

[Galveston1]

The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.

[450donn]

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional.
Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go. In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact. No where does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time

[JoeT777]

Galveston1:

The bad guys died. The ready guys had a way of escape.

But it was the good guys that inherited the earth, good guy are the ones that established a kingdom on earth.

We will get into all the Scripture on the subject shortly, I expect.

No doubt.
************************************************** ************************
************************************************** ************************
450donn:

Joe,
First off you must realize and understand that the Left Behind series of books is totally fictional.

I assumed everybody understood this. But, one of its selling points is that it is a fictional portrait based on the Darby theories.

Second the bible does say that Jesus will return as you saw him go.

I wasn’t implying that, “Jesus will return as you saw him go”.

In other words in the clouds. The rapture will take place that is a fact.

Nowhere does it say that Jesus will set foot back on earth until the battle of Armageddon. Which will be a very very short battle. Then he will sit in judgment of

But it only says that Christ will return “on the last day.” Your rendition could only be scripturally correct if we hold that the battle of Armageddon and the tribulation occur on the last day.

ALL people both living and those that were dead. Those found worthy will be with him forever. Those not found worthy will be cast into the lake of fire with the false profit and his cronies for 1000 years. So in summary, Jesus return to earth will happen only one time

How do you get a thousand years?

JoeT

[450donn]

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.

[revdrgade]

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air... with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God... forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

[JoeT777]

Please reread the book of Revelation.
Not sure about anybodies theories, but in the last book of the Bible it is pretty clear about the last days of the earth as we know it. With a great shout he(Jesus) will call his church home. This I believe will be the start of the last days. There will be a period of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. Again, how long, who knows, and I really don't care as I do not plan to be here. I believe that the signing of the peace treaty between Isreal and the rest of the world will be the actual starting point of the 7 years
On the last day Jesus and his army, the saints that were raptured, the angles and all of the heavenly hosts will return for the great final battle at Armageddon. At this time the earth will quake and all of the enemy will be defeated in the blink of an eye. Think of the mother of all nuclear bombs going off and killing millions at one time. That is how it appears in my mind. Then Jesus will establish his kingdom and all the people of the earth that ever lived will be judged. Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years. So how long does this all take? Don't know, and as far as I am concerned it really does not matter...

In the Apocalypse there are only two Christ figures depicted. One of the Christ figures had already appeared in history as of the writing of the Apocalypse. This Christ figure established his Kingdom on earth. That leaves only one, just one, (or 2-1) Christ figures left to appear; the Christ that promised to appear on the last day.

There is nothing in the Apocalypse that would presuppose a linear time line?

From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan?

as long as I am with my Lord. I am more worried about doing the Lords work while I am still here on earth.

Good. You might want to read John chapter 6.

John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world…55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

I agree with what I believe you to be saying.

There is only ONE Last Day and at that time the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave with their new bodies and we who are still here on earth will be changed and meet the Lord in the air ...with those who died in our past.

At that time the present heavens and earth will dissolve and our Lord will create a new heavens and earth which is no longer under God's consignment to futility/vanity. And all the saints before us, with us and those after us will dwell there in God....forever.

The other matters, such as the date, time, new bodies, features of the earth, the fate of the unbeliever, etc. are not clearly spoken of that we should make any doctrine one against another. They are just as much "shadows" as the the OT Temple, sacrifices, laws, etc were shadows to the people of that time.

We have enough knowledge (which "puffs up") to have sure hope. We are told to look forward to the time and unfolding whenever God secretly chooses. And we are to spend our time in ministry to others and stay alert in our hope, faith and love as God has told to do.

Maranatha!

Revdgrade:

Great response. I don’t think I could quibble too much. I might suggest that meeting Christ in the air is intended metaphorically for going forward to meet Christ as was the custom in that day.

JoeT

[Akoue]

"Also remember that to God a day is as a thousand years."

I'm not sure how useful this is. When in Scripture is a day a period lasting, let's say, roughly 24 hours, and when in Scripture is a day a period lasting 1000 years? Because if a day is always a thousand years, whoa! Jesus was in Galilee A LOT longer than I thought. And it just seems discourteous of the Bible to use it one way in Revelation and another way throughout the rest of the NT--without ever letting us know that.

[450donn]

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

[JoeT777]

Donn:

OK Joe, I now see where you are getting your theory about a "third" coming. . From your response, I gather you believe the rapture will come first, then the second coming, then for the third coming, Christ will defeat satan? The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture. That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. The problem is that Christ does not land on earth at the rapture.

Oh yeah, I see it now. Christ does a touch-and-go landing on earth’s runway right after the end of verse 1 Thess 4:16 and just before 1 Thess 4:17.

But getting serious, it would seem to me that credible support be cited if I’m to take your comments in any way other than opinion. My faith looks to an authoritative guide to be based on tradition and scripture. You’ve offered none. Consequently, I would like to challenge you to provide support for your views, either scriptural, historical or through an apostolic tradition.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come-and-go on his second return? Nor can the 3rd coming of Christ be located in scripture. Why because the next, and last, coming of Christ comes on THE LAST DAY. In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

That is a calling home of his church ( the believers) so therefore it is not really a "second coming" then. Then only second coming ( when Christ) sets foot on earth and actually takes control happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation at the battle of Armageddon. At least that is how I understand and interpert the scriptures. But I am only a lowly layman and others of far greater knowledge who I have read feel this is how the Bible spells it out.

No He isn’t calling home His church, Christ stated quite plainly, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6: 55) Christ is calling those who “eat” his flesh, and “drinks” his blood; in other words those who are worthy to partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist are being called.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

There can be no 1,000-year reign because when the kingdom of the world becomes Christ’s, He begins His reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15) Remember the dead in Christ are raised in 1 Thess 4 along with the living in Christ. And when does this occur, when death is destroyed (Cf. 1 Cor 15:23-26) which occurs on the LAST DAY. Now where, in the time line, would you suggest we place a 1,000-year reign?

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?
What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.
I firmly believe that there will be NO rapture as it is being taught.
There will be but ONE return of Jesus Christ to thus planet which includes the atmosphere with clouds, plains, mountains, meadows and much water.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Joe,
I understand that "the Last Day" is the last day of this age which started with the Advent of the Messiah.
The age following this one is the Messianic age which will last about 1000 years.
Those are years of peace.
So IF all the good guys are raptured why are the bad guys who are left behind given a 1000 years of peace?

Excellent point Fred. You snuck up on me with this one! It goes to prove my point, to rapture is to rupture Scriptures.

What did they do to earn or warrant that with the good guys having had to live through this world of wars, rapes, murders, and all the other nasty terrible things we humans have inflicted on each other.
Something is very wrong with that picture.

Which is another well made point; Christ's coming is to save those dead or alive in Him, not punish them.

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Thanks.
I just added my 2 cents worth to your excellent post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.

[JoeT777]

Don:

In return you'll have to forgive me for making this rather brief; I'm between meetings and only have a moment.

Joe,
Without having my bible in front of me to quite chapter and verse I have to go on memory, so lease bare with me.
"I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY. "
Here is a clear example of the "rapture" taking place. 1 Thessalonians is speaking about the church ( the believers) coming to meet him in the clouds. In John it is referring to the last (Judgment) day and so those non believers that are/were dead will rise at that time to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.
It is plane that we disagree on whether a rapture takes place or not Many bible scolars believe in the "rapture" of the church and that it will happen fairly soon as almost everyone is in agreement that we are in the last days. People like Grant Jefferies who have spent a life time studying bible prophesy are convinced of it and have written several good books on the subject. There are also many many famous preachers out there today that believe it. If your church does not believe and preach this subject, and you are comfortable with that, then great. Personally I find comfort in that knowledge Jesus will take his church away from the earth sometime in the future. That time will start a great calamity when millions of people simply disappear from the face of the earth. This will usher in a time of great trouble and will likely see the rise of the antichrist and the false profit to fill the void left by the churches disappearance. Personally like I do not believe that the church of Christ will be around for the tribulation. At least not as we know it today.
Bottom line I guess is that we will soon know one way or the other and on that glorious day it will not matter.

Apparently, I failed to make my point clear.1 Thess 4 calls for both the dead in Christ to rise and the living in Christ to rise. In John 6, among other things, Christ discusses what it takes for the dead in Christ to be risen (not the living). Christ specifically states in John 6:55 and John 6:35 that this will occur on the last day. Consequently, there is no room in the time line for a touch and go 2nd coming of Christ.

Many Preaches teach many things, not all of which is “right.” Putting that aside, if we hold the Scriptures to a certain standard as “the word of God” then shouldn't those things we perceive to be true based on Scripture be supported in that same Scripture. Just because it feels good doesn't make it good. Christ didn't come to make us comfortable.

JoeT

[450donn]

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don

[classyT]

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.

[JoeT777]

The second coming will be when he sets his feet down on the EARTH. The rapture is NOT the second coming. He is simply picking up his bride.

Ok, I’ve got to ask the same questions I asked Don. Don suggested that the 1st of the 2nd coming was a touch-and-go, so are you suggesting that your 1st of the 2nd coming is a flyby? Where does scripture allude to this?

Thus far, I haven’t seen anything but opinion.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

AHHHHH, I now see where you are basing your arguments.
The Rapture
We have a fundamental difference of opinions and neither of us will convince the other.
God bless you.
Don

The Catholic faith does hold the "LaHaye Rapture" in a dim light. Beyond the simple misinterpretation of Scripture, the problem is that it introduces a multitude of errors. But, this isn’t simply Catholic opinion; many Protestants hold a similar view.

Obviously a Catholic can be “taken up” at the 2nd coming. But, Scripture only allows for one 2nd coming. It’s my understanding that most Catholics would find it odd to reason for a rapture to avoid tribulations. Because as Christ tells us in Matthew 16: 24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For he that will save his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall find it.

JoeT