[ordinaryguy]

I will no longer knowingly respond to infidels

We should be so lucky. But I'm afraid the key word is "knowingly".

[talaniman]

Every one is an infidel, who disagrees with the stuff she spouts. Islamic radicals are like that too, hmmmm, I guess she is a christian radical.

[Allheart]

Is it safe to come out now ? :).

I thank you one and all for the love and support shown. You all lifted me up. You truly did and I thank you.

( I hope no one minds my attempt at a little chuckle. I have a tendency to do that when things get difficult. Isn't that little guy too cute?)

[HistorianChick]

All right, I admit, I've stayed out of this thread simply because of the conflict that I knew was inevitable... and judging by the rapidly growing pages on the Answer forum, I knew I wasn't wrong. But alas, here I am...

I read the first couple this morning, then skimmed the next few, then ultimately hit #9, and here I am.

I just have a question...

The OP asked "can a non-Christian do good in the sight of God? why or why not?", right?

Somehow this has veered off from the OP and tragically gone the way of "what is good" rather than "can they do it."

To the Christians on here (and I am one of your number), how can what's been going on here be classified as "good?"

"...whatsoever things are true, ...honest, ...just, ...pure, ...lovely, ...of a good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phil 4:8

I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.

"Good" without being tempered with grace can become sadly misunderstood.... and ultimately termed "bad."

[lobrobster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobsterI was not directing it to anyone, and honestly I don't really see the ranting and raving in this thread, but did you ever come across those that have the bible in one hand, and scream that those who don't accept Jesus are going to hell, that gays are doomed. But it's not done in a loving way, it's done in an angry way. That is what I was referring to.

Yes, I've seen those people and now understand what you mean. They do seem to be preaching out of anger rather than compassion for the 'infidels'. But I honestly don't think their mindset is too far removed from someone like skygem who stubbornly (and foolishly), thinks he is right, everyone else is wrong, and that's all there is to it. It is this type of closed minded, bigoted thinking that spawns the hate you see from those preachers you talk about.

I am sorry that I wasn't understanding your thoughts. I don't gladly accept what is in store for non-believers, I honestly don't even let my mind go there.

Please forgive me, but why is it that you don't let your mind go there? Could it be because you understand all too well that this eternal torture chamber your god has set up for the rest of humanity is morally apprehensible? I think you SHOULD let your mind go there! You should FORCE yourself to really think about it logically. Only then can you realize the absurdity of such an arrogant belief. I apologize for calling it arrogant Allheart, but what other word describes such a self righteous and privileged belief that has only YOUR religion being exactly right and enjoying eternal bliss, while everyone else burns in hell for eternity?

[Allheart]

Yes, I've seen those people and now understand what you mean. They do seem to be preaching out of anger rather than compassion for the 'infidels'. But I honestly don't think their mindset is too far removed from someone like skygem. He stubbornly (and foolishly) thinks he is right, everyone else is wrong, and that's all there is to it. It is this type of closed minded, bigoted thinking that spawns the hate that you see from those preachers you talk about.




Please forgive me, but why is it that you don't let your mind go there? Could it be because you understand all too well that this eternal torture chamber your god has set up for over half the people who ever lived, is morally apprehensible? I think you SHOULD let your mind go there! You should FORCE yourself to really think about it logically. Only then can you realize the absurdity of such an arrogant belief. I apologize for calling it arrogant Allheart, but what other word describes such a self righteous and privileged view that has only YOUR religion going to eternal bliss and everyone else burning in hell for eternity?

Hi Lob -

I just will keep this brief as I am sometimes take things internally too deeply and it kills me to cause any upset and makes me so sad and sometimes overwhelms me and it seems the more I try to explain the worse I seem to be understood.

The reason my mind doesn't go there, is :

1) I am too imperfect... I have way too much to correct... I need to be more loving, caring, giving, kind, compassionate, understanding, unselfish... before I can even think looking over to my "neighbor" and in a way stand in judgement of them.

That is what I meant. I am to imperfect to dare take a peak at someone else and tell them there future. And I know some will Say... "God said......." Yes, he did and he was speaking to me a sinner. I am a sinner. Period.

That is what I meant. And lob I know you don't mean any harm at all I can tell.

[Allheart]

Alright, I admit, I've stayed out of this thread simply because of the conflict that I knew was inevitable.... and judging by the rapidly growing pages on the Answer forum, I knew I wasn't wrong. But alas, here I am...

I read the first couple this morning, then skimmed the next few, then ultimately hit #9, and here I am.

I just have a question....

The OP asked "can a non-Christian do good in the sight of God? why or why not?", right?

Somehow this has veered off from the OP and tragically gone the way of "what is good" rather than "can they do it."

To the Christians on here (and I am one of your number), how can what's been going on here be classified as "good?"

"...whatsoever things are true, ...honest, ...just, ...pure, ...lovely, ...of a good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Phil 4:8

I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.

"Good" without being tempered with grace can become sadly misunderstood.... and ultimately termed "bad."

HC - you are such a wise girl and all of what you said is so very true.

[lobrobster]

Hi Lob -

I just will keep this brief as I am sometimes take things internally too deeply and it kills me to cause any upset and makes me so sad and sometimes overwhelms me and it seems the more I try to explain the worse I seem to be understood.

The reason my mind doesn't go there, is :

1) I am too imperfect ....I have way too much to correct.....I need to be more loving, caring, giving, kind, compassionate, understanding, unselfish.....before I can even think looking over to my "neighbor" and in a way stand in judgement of them.

That is what I meant. I am to imperfect to dare take a peak at someone else and tell them there future. And I know some will Say...."God said......." Yes, he did and he was speaking to me a sinner. I am a sinner. Period.

That is what I meant. And lob I know you don't mean any harm at all I can tell.

Allheart, please don't ever worry about upsetting me. I only ask that you be honest (with me, as well as yourself), in what you say, and I can never be upset at that. I still don't quite understand...

You say you need to be more loving, caring, kind, compassionate, understanding, and unselfish. Doesn't this demand that you think about all the eternally tortured souls?

If you haven't guessed it already, I used to be a Christian. It was exactly these types of problems/questions why I simply couldn't bring myself to believe anymore. I couldn't reconcile how a loving God could ever allow such an appalling fate for everyone else who didn't hold the same beliefs of my religion.

I couldn't accept many of the responses to this OP. Why a non-Christian couldn't do good in the sight of a loving compassionate God. It just didn't make any sense.

[Allheart]

Lob - First, of course I believe, God is pleased when any of us do good, ( Including non-Christians)

2) Please, I am being honest. Some people may question my sincerity but in my heart I am being honest as I can possibly be. I know I may appear to be a scambled egg :). That's because I am. Meaning, sometimes a lot of people don't get me and I am usually odd girl out. Sometimes it is so lonely and I wonder why sometimes I think so different. My husband loves me very much, but gets very frustrated with my views and heart sometimes. He thinks I see good too much and gets very frustrated as he's still not sure where I came from :).

Anyway, to be very honest, I don't often think about eternal tortured souls. My mind may wonder there and do you mean when someone first tells me they do not believe in God, do I worry for them, yes I do and my heart is sad and I feel love for them and hope that they once again will feel God's love. Yes I do. But in no way do I feel superior to them. Feeling that way, I'm sorry to me is a sin.

See, it's not that my religion is superior to anyone. I think all religions are roads to God. I have said that many times.

Now I am Catholic, is what I believe and some of what I say here would they disagree with me... probably... some of it... but they would still love me :)

[lobrobster]

Now I am Catholic, is what I beleive and some of what I say here would they disagree with me....probably...some of it...but they would still love me :)

I was raised in the Catholic faith as well. I'm sorry for trying to pin you down, but I'm sooo confused!

Imagine in the basement of your church people were being hideously tortured. How could you attend mass at this church every Sunday with a smile on your face knowing what was happening below in the basement? You seem like a nice person and I'm betting your conscience wouldn't allow you to. So why can you not apply this same logic when it comes to heaven and hell? You can't possibly think it's morally right that over half the people who have ever lived will be tortured forever and ever until the end of time.

[Allheart]

No I don't think you are pinning me down or doing it harshly. You actually are helping me sort through my own beleifs.

I think the reason that I don't hit the panic button when someone tells me they don't believe in God, is because, in my heart I know that God is a loving God and this person standing in front of me, who I do love as my brother or sister, will someday open their hearts to God.

It does make me sad that their life could be so much easier having God's love in it. Does that mean my life goes better because I believe. No, it means that having Gods' love during the difficult time carries me through time in and time out (when I remember to give it all to him)

I guess my belief is that Our Loving Father would never damn someone who is a good person but has yet to accept God in their hearts. I believe that they will before the pass on and if they don't I do believe in purgatory, where they will be given a chance to love and serve the Lord and they will be able to see things differently. That is my belief.

Grant you, the Catholic Church would not agree with me, my Mom would put me on indefinite time out and there are a couple of nuns heading my way with huge yardsticks:eek:

So who do I think will be thrown away from God? - Rapist, Murders, molesters who have not repented. Those that evil has penetrated them so much, the only thing that remains is evil.

No, I do not pick what to believe in the Catholic Church. I love my religion as it is what gives me the vision to see God. But I also realize, the Church consist of humans, who are fallable. So I pray on all things and give great thought to all things (when I think) and be sure in my heart that I am in line with God's Will.

Thank you for this disccussion - you are helping me find my way a little more. Truly.

[lobrobster]

Please consider and be guided in that by what I have said above on that matter.

Anyone who would be guided by something you said, should have their head examined. I have nothing against those with faith, but you take intolerance to a new level. You wear your ignorance on your sleeve as though it were something to be proud of.

Yet, something puzzles me:

God's Word is indeed *infallible*. It's man's mis-interpretation and re-interpretation of it that I am concerned about.

Not a bad signature. Why not heed it yourself?

[speechlesstx]

I think we've not answered the original question, but simply defined that man is man... he is capable of good or bad, no matter what his spiritual state may be.

Actually, I thought I answered the question. Anyway, nice post HistorianChick :)

[speechlesstx]

HistorianChick agrees: LOL! Sorry... that was page 6... I had skipped to 9 by that time! :) Good answer, though!

No prob, I was just fishing for attention. Oops, was that 'bad?' :D

[MoonlitWaves]

Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God?

Yes

Why or why not?

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receieve the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those books, according to their works."

There are many other verses that say we will ALL, every one of us, will be judged based upon our works whether they are good or bad. Every one includes the saved and the unsaved. Since we will all be judged upon the good and the bad we did while we are living, it, in my mind, is very safe to say the unsaved will be judged upon the good they did as well. That would mean they can do good in God's eyes.

[bagel sandwich]

Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God? Why or why not?

Actually , none of us are truly good. In the Bible it states that the only one who can be truly called good is God. We are not good enough , not Christians , or otherwise.
We are all to do our best to follow Christ's example, but we will always fall short.
That is why Jesus died for us . He died to take our short comings (sins) upon himself , so that we could be forgiven and cleansed and live with him in Heaven when we pass away.
It is about being saved.

[SkyGem]

Actually , none of us are truly good. In the Bible it states that the only one who can be truly called good is God. We are not good enough , not Christians , or otherwise.
We are all to do our best to follow Christ's example, but we will always fall short.
That is why Jesus died for us . He died to take our short comings (sins) upon himself , so that we could be forgiven and cleansed and live with him in Heaven when we pass away.
It is about being saved.

You are exactly right! Jesus was/is without sin, we are not. And it IS about being Saved. That should be the goal of every human being on this planet -- to be able to take care of their soul and spirit once they are gone from this physical world because the world of Spirit, in Heaven, is eternal and forever, unlike this one where your life is truly very short by comparison. If one does not look after their own soul to want only the very best for it, who else will care enough to help them? Truly, no one else, except Jesus! And it makes Him very happy when people will accept Him as their Lord and Savior, thereby, assuring their Salvation in the Afterlife.

[talaniman]

I agree our time on earth is very short, and as humans we can at least do our best to do what's right, for ourselves and others. Falling short, is no reason not to keep trying.

[ineedhelpfast]

Of course when a man or woman does good in his or her own eyes it is good, but when God sees it is not good because no matter how many "good deeds" we do, the fact is that we were born in sin. But the thing is that he loved us even before we loved him. So while you continue to doubt and mock his followers he still loves you and longs for a relationship you.

[MoonlitWaves]

I agree that our good deeds is no where near good enough to save ourselves. We most definitely need Jesus for that salvation. And yes, the Bible does say that none is good but God, but this does not imply that we cannot do good. We most definitely can do good... not only what we as imperfect humans consider as good, but what God sees as good.