[clinton mccoy]

It is pointless to try and compare the Church in the 1500 and 1600 to the church today, during many years the church was not only a religious body but also a civil government authority that was contoling a major part of the world. So often church courts of the time had little to do with religion, and more as a control for reasons of government.

The action of church leaders of that time, did not often follow the bible. With that the actions of anyone 500 years ago has little if any bearing on what is right and wrong today

I know that. I made a statement that the church have backed many doctrines based on what the situations of the time. Some of those decisions could not have came from Gods knowlegde, but what man felt was right. I was asked to name one, I did. My point is that the church is capable of making mistakes-it is my belief that the Omnipotent does not. So because we learn something in church doesn't make it 100% right. That was my other point.

[De Maria]

Galileo's support for the heliocentric theory got him into trouble with the Roman Catholic Church. In 1633 the Inquisition convicted him of heresy and forced him to recant (publicly withdraw) his support of Copernicus. They sentenced him to life imprisonment, but because of his advanced age allowed him serve his term under house arrest at his villa in Arcetri outside of Florence. Please excuse my spelling.

You might want to read this article. It was written by a nonCatholic interested in the subject:

Wil Milan is an astrophotographer based in Arizona.Though he is not a Catholic, he takes great interest in the history of astronomy. Some of his work can be seen on the World Wide Web at (site under reconstruction -- please return at a later date).

Twisting the Knife

How Galileo Brought His Troubles with the Church on Himself

By Wil Milan



If you ask people what Galileo Galilei is famous for, most will say that he invented the telescope, used it to prove the earth goes around the sun, and that the Catholic Church condemned him for his discoveries. That much is common knowledge, no?

In fact, none of those things is true...

TWISTING THE KNIFE (This Rock: November-December 1999)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[clinton mccoy]

You might want to read this article. It was written by a nonCatholic interested in the subject:

Wil Milan is an astrophotographer based in Arizona.Though he is not a Catholic, he takes great interest in the history of astronomy. Some of his work can be seen on the World Wide Web at (site under reconstruction -- please return at a later date).



TWISTING THE KNIFE (This Rock: November-December 1999)

Sincerely,

De Maria

There were men in the church that supported him, yes I know that, but not the church as an institution. We are talking about the institution.
I like chatting with you.

You might want to read this article. It was written by a nonCatholic interested in the subject:

Wil Milan is an astrophotographer based in Arizona.Though he is not a Catholic, he takes great interest in the history of astronomy. Some of his work can be seen on the World Wide Web at (site under reconstruction -- please return at a later date).



TWISTING THE KNIFE (This Rock: November-December 1999)

Sincerely,

De Maria

According to the two articles you have advised me to read your point of view seems to be right. I can admit that. But there are 150 articles that will say you are wrong. Is the majority always right we know that is not always true. But what can we go by for now. God does not make them mistakes man does. My point, we can put too much faith in institutional beliefs, instead of trying to understand God on a personal level. Many believe that we can not understand without the institution. I have a different understanding, as you can probably tell.

[De Maria]

According to the two articles you have advised me to read your point of view seems to be right. I can admit that.

Thanks. I admire that.

But there are 150 articles that will say you are wrong. Is the majority always right we know that is not always true.

Agree.

But what can we go by for now. God does not make them mistakes man does. My point, we can put too much faith in institutional beliefs, instead of trying to understand God on a personal level.

As I understand the purpose of the Institution which we are speaking of, the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ put her on this earth in order to help us understand God on a personal level.

Many believe that we can not understand without the institution. I have a different understanding, as you can probably tell.

Yes.

Thanks for sharing your views.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[savedsinner7]

But doesn't God know everyone's destiny from the day they are born?

He allows free choice. What He has planned for us and what we choose may not be the same. If we choose in line with His will for us then we get the blessings He has prepared. If our choices are not in line with His will, then He holds back the gifts He wanted to give. Premarital sex is definitely not in His will.

[Aussieman]

Ah, this is one of those questions that can never be answered as none of us can stand up and say 'This is what God wants!'
Without being rude I think it is arrogant to stand up and say you know what God is thinking.
A lot of the problems in the world come from people arguing and going to war over what they claim God said and wants them to do.
Follow your own conscience and spiritual path.

[clinton mccoy]

He allows free choice. What He has planned for us and what we choose may not be the same. If we choose in line with His will for us then we get the blessings He has prepared. If our choices are not in line with His will, then He holds back the gifts He wanted to give. Premarital sex is definitely not in His will.

Any sin is against Gods will. So can anyone gain Gods favor and keep it? I do not think God takes his blessing from us. I think it is us who turns our back On God. Will God not bless you if you have a child out of wedlock I do not think so. Will he let you see the consequences of your action, more than likely.

[clinton mccoy]

Ah, this is one of those questions that can never be answered as none of us can stand up and say 'This is what God wants!'
Without being rude I think it is arrogant to stand up and say you know what God is thinking.
A lot of the problems in the world come from people arguing and going to war over what they claim God said and wants them to do.
Follow your own conscience and spiritual path.

I like your answer, and I agree, but it is fun to hear people trying!!

[mstkay76]

Ah, this is one of those questions that can never be answered as none of us can stand up and say 'This is what God wants!'
Without being rude I think it is arrogant to stand up and say you know what God is thinking.
A lot of the problems in the world come from people arguing and going to war over what they claim God said and wants them to do.
Follow your own conscience and spiritual path.

^^^ GREAT ANSWER!!

There were many prime examples in the Bible, favored men of God, whom of which had relations outside of their marriage (s), had relations prior to marriage, had children out of wedlock, etc. and they were not punished by God nor society at the time.

The church and society have since demonized sexual relations.

When someone, anyone, suggests the church can teach you I call BULL! The BIBLE and ONLY the Bible can teach you. If you ask questions of man (human) you are likely to get opinion and their understanding. As we know humans are fallible thus their opinions and understandings are subject to being incorrect.

Your best course of action is to read EVERY word of the Bible from cover to cover, in order, without missing one word and to do this over and over again in order to gain understanding of the whole, rather than looking to one or two scriptures without considering their context to gain perspective as that can only lead you further astray.

(apologies for the run-on sentence... )

Best wishes.

[Fr_Chuck]

Actually sex outside of marriage has long been wrong to society and has always been against Gods rules. It is often that they were punished by God in various ways, perhaps not lighting from heaven but for sure they lost favor in many ways, It is often their turning from their sin and asking forgiveness that got them back in God's grace.

And yes it is very easy to know and find God's will, it is called the Bible, it elss us what God wants and what is right and wrong in our life.

And yes the church can teach you, it does so by helping you understand the bible, since one has to know the customs and traditions of the varoius times to fully understand, And since most people do not know greek or hewbrew they need skilled and trained people to help them understand many thinga.

[clinton mccoy]

Actually sex outside of marriage has long been wrong to society and has always been against Gods rules. It is often that they were punished by God in various ways, perhaps not lighting from heaven but for sure they lost favor in many ways, It is often thier turning from thier sin and asking forgiveness that got them back in God's grace.

And yes it is very easy to know and find God's will, it is called the Bible, it elss us what God wants and what is right and wrong in our life.

And yes the church can teach you, it does so by helping you understnad the bible, since one has to know the customs and traditions of the varoius times to fully understand, And since most people do not know greek or hewbrew they need skilled and trained people to help them understand many thinga.

Using a Greek and Hebrew concordance will more than likely give you different view of what the bible says, than the standard church version. Most churches understand this, so they tell you don't read anything but the bible for info. About God. I believe that if it is the truth no matter where you look it will remain the truth. Truth does not mind investigation a lie does.

[mstkay76]

Chuck,

While I respect your opinions, I obviously do not agree with them and as a human it is my right - just as it is yours to disagree with me.

I cannot, nor can you, guarantee that any church will teach the word of God as it is supposed to be taught because those teachings are coming from fallible men/women. Whereas, if you take the time to learn the Bible (God's word) as a whole by reading it for yourself, you are taking lessons from the Creator Himself regardless of what language the book is in as it was divinely inspired.

And for the record, men were not punished for producing with their slaves nor were they expected to repent for such. It was accepted practice.

[clinton mccoy]

Chuck,

While I respect your opinions, I obviously do not agree with them and as a human it is my right - just as it is yours to disagree with me.

I cannot, nor can you, guarantee that any church will teach the word of God as it is supposed to be taught because those teachings are coming from fallible men/women. Whereas, if you take the time to learn the Bible (God's word) as a whole by reading it for yourself, you are taking lessons from the Creator Himself regardless of what language the book is in as it was divinely inspired.

And for the record, men were not punished for producing with their slaves nor were they expected to repent for such. It was accepted practice.

I agree with you 90%. The other 10% is that I do not believe every word in the bible to be true, because man has played apart in its making. For example some christain bibles have 73 books and some have 64. If it was Gods word it would probably remain consistent even with the passage of time. Now I believe that the moral concepts of the bible are constant.

[Fr_Chuck]

This is true but then 99 pecent of the populatoin is not going to look up greek or hewbrew texts, or books to translate, They are not going to read a dozen of books on the customs at various times of bible hisotry, esp those on the NEW TESTEMENT times, so they understand about the planting, even turning the other cheek that is so often misunderstood.
They try to view things under today's standards or view points of words.

But yes every denomination has some points where man has issues in it,

And the bible is not one book, but a collection, the differene is the protestant and catholic, and the inclusion of the additional books that are between the old and new testment, Even the protestant religions accept the other books as valid just not to the level of the other scripture.
And of course they contain little that would have any profound help in christianity and mans understnading of God's word.

[clinton mccoy]

This is true but then 99 pecent of the populatoin is not going to look up greek or hewbrew texts, or books to translate, They are not going to read a dozen of books on the customs at various times of bible hisotry, esp those on the NEW TESTEMENT times, so they understnad about the planting, even turning the other cheek that is so often misunderstood.
They try to view things under todays standards or view points of words.

But yes every denomination has some points where man has issues in it,

And the bible is not one book, but a collection, the differene is the protestant and catholic, and the inclusion of the additional books that are between the old and new testment, Even the protestant religions accept the other books as valid just not to the level of the other scripture.
And of course they contain little that would have any profound help in christianity and mans understnading of God's word.

You and I have started this conversation on another thread. Let us continue there. I think a few of use are taking away from the original question. If you don't think so we can continue here?

[De Maria]

God is interested in all.

2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The 8000 are now present with the Lord, whether that is good or bad depends on how they spent their life.

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

The Scriptures record that frequently man did not obey God.

It is because the Will of God is disregarded that the situation occurred in the first place. However, it is the parents obligation to pass on their faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Aussieman]

I see no one has mentioned that man has been given free will. This is given to him by God. Now I don't want to judge God :), but surely He knew what he was doing when He gave us free will. It is there to be exercised and which path you choose at any second of your day determines where you go and how you will live. This is the beauty of life.

[clinton mccoy]

I see no one has mentioned that man has been given free will. This is given to him by God. Now I don't want to judge God :), but surely He knew what he was doing when He gave us free will. It is there to be exercised and which path you choose at any second of your day determines where you go and how you will live. This is the beauty of life.

You did not read all post. It is not spelled out, but I am sure the point has been made.

[Aussieman]

You did not read all post. It is not spelled out, but I am sure the point has been made.

I was responding to the previous post about God's will and part of God's will is that he gave us choice and the ability to choose. This is what makes us human, part of His creation.

[clinton mccoy]

I was responding to the previous post about God's will and part of God's will is that he gave us choice and the ability to choose. This is what makes us human, part of His creation.

Ok I misunderstood, sorry. I do that sometimes:=)