[tbecker]

We just bought our house in April. The plumbing has worked fine until recently. I'm trying to locate the main source of our problem and figure out how extensive it is. The shower and tub drains in the bathrooms have been backing up recently, leaving a brown gritty substance. The sink drain in the bathroom slows down and the toilets bubble? (gurgle?). One of the bathrooms floods a bit and I'm not sure where the water comes from whether the toilet or the bathtub, but the water is clear on the floor. The problem has not seemed to affect the kitchen sink but today the washer caused the problem to worsen. Previously we had a plumber come out. He snaked the line from the front of the house to the sewer, but encountered a blockage he couldn't pass and told us that most likely we had tree roots in the line and would have to replace it. He said this could cost !$3000 which we can't afford right now. The house is concrete slab with an addition. The main slab has about a 4in step to the second slab of the addition and the previous owners tiled over the floors. We have noticed a little line of what looked like moisture along this joint since we bought the house but with the recent plumbing problems the line has gotten longer and the grout used on the vertical part of the step indicates it is aborping water. The house was supposedly replumbed and we have found a PVC water line along part of the front of the house. I'm not sure what the rest of the plumbing looks like. We have also had a lot of rain lately and the city has been working in our neighborhood to put drainage in and recently notified us they would be "smoking" the pipes looking for problems. When we checked the vents on the roof one of the vents looked like it spilt off into two sections as if it might be cracked, but our flash light wasn't strong enough to tell for sure. I am concerned that maybe there is a broken pipe under the concrete slab or that there may be many small problems but I don't know for sure where to focus or if there is a temporary "fix" that might be available. Any help you can give would be much appreciated.

[fredg]

Hi,
I was born and raised in FL, in a house built in the 40's. The water pipes were the old "lead pipes", heavy, threaded, long before plastic pipes were even available. This kind of pipe, if that's what you have under the cement, are probably clogged up, and rusted by now!
I am sure others will post some ideas, but it does seem as if you are going to have to spend some money to fix it.
I do wish you the best.

[labman]

Don't add lead piping to your worries. The gray stuff in common use in the 40's and 50's and even today is galvanized, not lead. Lead doesn't rust, just slowly poisons people. Not sure when it went out of use for anything except chemical labs. Unfortunately, galvanized does rust. If Wilma didn't blow him away, Tom will be answering. He has 40 years experience fixing problems like yours in Florida. I usually leave the plumbing questions to him, but wanted to reassure you on the lead. If where they come up out of the slab, your water pipes are copper, you have less to worry about.

The city smoke test is to find down spouts and floor drains connected to the sanitary sewers, a common practice in the past, now banned. Hope yours aren't because they could force you into immediate, expensive repairs.

You might try a specialized drain cleaner before spending $3000 on a new sewer line. Others and I like Roto-Router. Each specialty deals best with certain problems.

[speedball1]

Greetings from another 50 year old slab house in Sarasota,

You have cast iron or Terra-Cotta drainage and unless you have a home that's been repiped , galvanized water pipes. The "brown gritty stuff" you see is most likely dirt that's found its way into your pipes. You didn't say how much cable the plumber put out before he ran into but it's my guess that you'll find that the grout joint at the city raiser,( where your sewer connects to the city sewer) has shrunk allowing roots to get in and clog the line. If that's the case you may not have to dig up the entire sewer line, just the raiser.
The reason that you're noticing moisture is that the line's loaded up with water and may just be seeping out of a lead joint, If a cast iron sewer) or cement if Terra Cotta. I wouldn't worry too much about that until I resolved the blockage. You asked for some relief because a $3,000 sewer redo wasn't feasible at this time. I may be able to help with the root problem
For immediate relief and to kill the existing roots and prevent further growth you can purchase RootX or Robics Foaming Root Killer that contain Dichlobrnic.
A less expensive way would be to call around to garden supply stores and ask for fine grain Copper Sulphate. Put a 1/2 pound in your toilet and flush it down. Repeat in 6 months.
Good luck, Tom

[tbecker]

Thanks so much I really appreciate it. We'll go ahead try the root method. The plumber didn't take much time doing the snaking. When he encountered the blockage he basically stopped. He went about about 12+ feet so it might be the sewer connection. Reading some of the other posts on the forum, I think we might try snaking it again and going slow or calling in roto rooter. Thanks

[newbiehomeowner]

Tom Suggested a root killer... supposing that the root is the "root" of the blockage... and now the root killer kills the root blockage, does the remaining dead root dissolve away to clear the blockage? The reason I ask, is that I may be in the same boat as well with 3 trees that are near where I believe my septic tank to be.. one is a Canary Island Date Palm... which really doesn't have an extensive root system , one is a chinaberry tree, and the other is a very mature pink grapefruit tree.
On another note, of the re-plumbing, this old house.. was replumbed as well with a slab bypass of PEC vinyl tubing... without the metal bands which require a 99 dollar crimping tool... Is it true that most of the problems with under the slab copper piping leaks are caused by microscopic or even pinhole leaks caused by years of lightening strikes finding their way to ground?
Thanks
Neil

[speedball1]

(1)Tom Suggested a root killer....supposing that the root is the "root" of the blockage...and now the root killer kills the root blockage, does the remaining dead root dissolve away to clear the blockage?

(2)Is it true that most of the problems with under the slab copper piping leaks are caused by microscopic or even pinhole leaks caused by years of lightening strikes finding their way to ground?
Thanks
Neil

(1)The root killer will kill the growth and eventually the roots will desolve and flush out into the main, however,the best way is to snake out and clear the line and then apply root killer to stop more intrusion.

(2) Lightning strikes huh? That's a new one on me. Pinhole leaks leaks are caused by galvanic current , electrolysis in the home or aggressive water.

[newbiehomeowner]

I didn't make this up... and found a reference to the article...
For Whatever its worth...

Lightning and Water Leaks

An article was published in the Orlando Sentinel on Sunday, June 23, 1996 titled "Leaky plumbing Linked to Lighting Strikes." Oddly enough, findings from the Orlando Utilities Commission in 1991 link pin hole leaks in copper water pipes to lightning strikes. This occurs much more frequently in plumbing that has a plastic line connecting the water meter to a home. PVC was used for this purpose starting in the early 1970's. Homes that have all metal piping appear less vulnerable. The theory is this: Lightning strikes the ground near a structure. An electrical charge travels through the ground until it hits a better conductor such as a home's buried metal plumbing or ground rod. The charge follows this until it hits a dead end like a plastic service line or other nonmetallic fitting that is a poor conductor of electricity. The charge then seeks other paths including water in the rest of the plumbing. It does this explosively like a "mini-lightning" strike and blows a tiny hole or holes in the copper pipe. Leaks can occur right away or may take up to a few months before making an appearance.

Although our house has all copper plumbing, after a lightning strike hit a tree in the front yard, a pin hole leak appeared in a copper water pipe in the wall that went to the water heater. It went unnoticed for a while until the day I was chasing a skink (small lizard) and it led me to the damp wall behind the heater. It had apparently found a nice source of water and was living under the heater.

In 1991, the OUC built an experimental house to study the effects of chemical and other kinds of copper corrosion. Extremely high levels of copper were found in the water after intense thunderstorms. Rings of glassy red crystals were found around the punctures in the copper pipe. OUC chief chemist **** Dunham was able to duplicate these crystals by heating copper and sand to a very high temperature in the lab. This provided further proof that it was lightning and not corrosion that caused the pin holes.

Hope you made it through the hurricane safely Tom.
Neil

[speedball1]

Thanks Neil,
Just shows you're never too old to learn. Most of the pin hole leaks I've found have been caused by electrolysis and checked by a AC volt meter. TThis is the first time that I've heard of lighting strikes causing pinhole leaks but the way it was explained it sounds very possible. Funny I haven't run into it out in the field since we run all our new water services in PVC and we are the lightning capital of the world. Wilma missed Sarasota and all we got was the outer bands.
Again thanks, tom

[newbiehomeowner]

Hello Tom and Labman in this continuing saga of slow flushing toilets and backing up washer drain, `pumped septic 45 days ago... just added root killer crystals, and 1/ 2 box of rid x , I was attempting to rent a motorized snake auger and a hand snake for the vent pipes but had difficulties and I was reading your earlier post... below...
speedball1Apr 29, 2004, 06:42 AM
Hey Star, A sunny hello from Florida. Lab man was right. I played hooky and spent the day at the beach. Sarasota's beautiful this time of year. Most RR men aren't regular plumbers. They just snake out the sewer line from the house to the street or the septic tank to remove roots. If you had tree roots in the sewer line to the septic tank then ALL of your fixtures would be affected. It sounds like you have a blockage in the branch line that drains the washer. This blockage will be located downstream from the vent in the branch line. Did the RR man run a snake down from the roof vent. Because if he didn't then you will still be left with the blockage. Get a man out there to run a snake down the vent and break up the clog and send it on through. Let me know how you make out. Cheers, Tom

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starfazMay 5, 2004, 11:50 AM
Hi Tom,

The RotoRooter (RR) guys came back out. They used a camera to check the drain line and the vent to the roof. The vent was OK, but the drain line was clogged about 50 feet out from the house. Apparently, the drain line didn't connect to the septic tank after all. It was a "graywater" line that ran independently. He said that in our area, it was OK, but in some places that was illegal. He connected the washer to the main septic tank line at the house, capped off the old "graywater" drain line and even pumped the septic tank. He did all of this for $200, which seemed cheap to me, but I didn't question it. Everything seems to be working fine so far and I'm glad I didn't have all the trees ripped out. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ADVICE!! Too many times people tell me things just to charge me more and I like having enough knowledge to tell when their lying, or not. Thanks again!

this problem sounds very similar with the way things have happened here...
I did, install a new toilet wax seal last weekend with no difficulties..
I will let you know how I make out...
I am fearing that when the septic pumping guy came out and suspected the drain field had collapsed or been intruded upon by roots... maybe it will be in need of replacing... the grapefruit tree roots have supposedly breeched the box , but I can dig to the roots and chop them out, nice sweet pink grapefruits, so the tree stays...
wish me luck