[tomder55]

From document provided 'The Word seen from Rome'

"These ecclesial communities, which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'Churches' in the proper sense."

I need some clarification . I was under the impression that the Protestant congregations do not consider themselves "churches" anyway.

[speechlesstx]

I need some clarification . I was under the impression that the Protestant congregations do not consider themselves "churches" anyway.

Hmmm, I never knew that... I can't recall ever thinking we weren't the church, part of the Body of Christ.

[speechlesstx]

Ok, I'll give my two cents now. First I want to highlight a point tom made:

We are one in the Spirit and the Lord.

Amen to that.

I have no problem with a church remaining true to their faith, their doctrine, traditions, etc. in fact it should be expected. But isn't it a bit contradictory to press for a stated goal of unity while also telling us we're "defective" or "deficient"? Note these excerpts, first from Vatican II...

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects"

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body"

"For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation."

"the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace"

From the current document:

"Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted"

"“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects"

"According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense."

How does it promote unity to say we are "deficient," "suffer from defects," "not blessed with that unity," "deprived," cannot be called "churches" and we can only "benefit fully" through the Catholic church? And for the record, I'm not too keen on any church that makes a claim of exclusivity, i.e. the "one, true church". In other words, tell me where we disagree and let's discuss things, but don't tell me I'm a brother in Christ while telling me I'm "deficient" because I'm not a part of your church. That is the sort of thing that divides, not unites, and all sides are guilty.

I never knew the Catholic church growing up though I had many a Catholic friend. It was news to me some years later to learn I needed the Catholic church to "benefit fully" from God's grace. I hope it isn't news to my Catholic friends that we've been fully benefiting from the grace of God just fine without Roman Catholicism. I admit we as a church aren't perfect, but I don't believe there is a church today that is perfect. There were imperfections, divisions and doctrinal errors in the earliest church if you believe the bible - what makes anyone think it just got better the further removed we get from that early church?

What I do know is this, "whereas I was blind, now I see." Isn't that enough?

Steve

[tomder55]

Steve ;don't feel too offended . I haven't when I've been called non-Christian or worse by some Christians because we practice in their view non-essential traditions.

The Catholic Church considers Protestants to be the "separated brethren" because of the view that it is the Catholic Church which is the church that Jesus established, and not the Protestant denominations.The Protestant Reformation is seen as a schismatic movement which created disunity in Christ's church . Ecumenicalism has been a goal stated in the Catachism for a long time .

855
The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."

Further it is clear from the Catachism 817;818;819 that we consider non-Catholic Christians as brothers

817
In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271


818
"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers.. . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272


819
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

[speechlesstx]

Steve ;don't feel too offended . I haven't when I've been called non-Christian or worse by some Christians because we practice in their view non-essential traditions.

Ah tom, I'm not offended, it just seems a bit contradictory to press for unity and calling us 'brethren' while basically telling us we're 'lesser' at the same time. But hey, I know we've both been called worse :)

I understand the Catholic Church's view, but I sometimes wonder if the Catholic Church understands things from our perspective - just as many a non-Catholic misunderstands the Catholic doctrine.

I used to be one of those that took a limited understanding of Catholic doctrine and thought, "that's just not right." However, the more I learned of true Catholicism, the more I realized that in spite of our differences there was no justification for that kind of nonsense directed at Catholics and Catholicism.

But back to wondering if Catholics understand our perspective... as I said before I knew nothing of Catholicism until long after I became a believer. I'm a child of God now and that's all that matters as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that's the proper - and biblical - view. There's an old southern gospel song I remember hearing that puts it rather simply:

It's not what's over the door
Of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of God,
And a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing He's lookin' for
Can't you see that it's what's in your heart
And not what's over the door

Of course if one wants to make fun of the nonsense that does exist in the church there's another old song I remember...

Funny thing happened on the way to Church last Sunday,
Billows of smoke came rollin' from the door.
I ran up to tell the leading Deacon
Something should be done, 'cause the Church is on fire for sure.
(And he said)

Chorus:

That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

Well, we were back in Church the very next Sunday
In a tent bought and paid for by the building fund.
I stood up to tell the congregation
"There's a tornado coming, everybody run!" (And they said)

That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

We had an open-air meeting the very next Sunday
When the trumpets sounded, and the clouds were rolled away.
I stood up to tell the congregation
"Lift up your heads, the Lord has come today........" (And they said)

That's a point well put, and a timely suggestion.
We'll bring it up, at the very next meeting
Of the board of Deacons, a week from Tuesday.
I don't know why, it's just Church policy
At the First Nazametha, Bapticostal, 7th day Orthodox, Lutheterian,
Non-Denominational Church of Our Lady of the Mind.

I think I've been to that church, which is why I'm now a Frisbeetarian; we believe when you die, your soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there. :D

[Tessy777]

speechlesstx agrees: Tessy, I'm not upset - as someone once said, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Right?.

Ahhh! Steve... now them's beuteeful words!! Lol

[tomder55]

it just seems a bit contradictory to press for unity and calling us 'brethren' while basically telling us we're 'lesser' at the same time.

I agree ,and furthermore being a member of' Voice of the Faithful 'I am not adverse to the idea of reviewing doctine that doesn't make sense anymore or is in need of modification.

[speechlesstx]

I agree ,and furthermore being a member of' Voice of the Faithful 'I am not adverse to the idea of reveiwing doctine that doesn't make sense anymore or is in need of modification.

Amen my brother :)