[jlisenbe]

On what?

[Wondergirl]

On what?

You had said, God can bless and use anyone willing to trust Him and be obedient.

Please elaborate.

[jlisenbe]

Trust and obedience in the Bible are close to synonymous. Does “trust and disobey” sound right?

[Wondergirl]

Trust and obedience in the Bible are close to synonymous. Does “trust and disobey” sound right?

A non answer. What's your definition of obedience? (No, trust and obedience aren't synonymous, even in the Bible.) So...I must obey the Ten Commandments or God will punish me somehow?

[jlisenbe]

Of course it's an answer. You asked me to elaborate on my concept of obedience. We cannot say we trust God if we are then disobedient. They are vitally connected.

You really want a definition of "obedience"? You don't know what it means?

I would say it means to comply, or to obey. To do what one is told to do. Is that somehow revolutionary?

(No, trust and obedience aren't synonymous, even in the Bible.)

I did not say they were synonymous. I said they were close to it. Obedience follows trust.

So...I must obey the Ten Commandments or God will punish me somehow?

He will punish the Christian in the same way that a parent punishes a disobedient child.

[Wondergirl]

If we love one another, obdience isn't an issue.

[jlisenbe]

To love one another is to obey what God said to do. Obedience is at the very core of it. And then we must consider that God sets out what it means to genuinely love someone.

[Wondergirl]

To love one another is to obey what God said to do. Obedience is at the very core of it. And then we must consider that God sets out what it means to genuinely love someone.

You're making loving each other too difficult and unwieldy.

[Athos]

For the record, I am not a fundamentalist.

For the record, fundie Jl believes in talking snakes and a monstrous god who slaughters all humanity and then sends the majority of new humans to his private torture chamber to burn without ceasing in a fiery pit for all eternity.

Pray tell, exactly what flavor of Christianity is that?

[jlisenbe]

You're making loving each other too difficult and unwieldy.

Love is oftentimes sweet and pleasant, but it is at times difficult. Was the cross easy or difficult? It's really selfishness that comes easily.

Love is far more than a feeling. In the story of the Good Samaritan, did the actions of the Samaritan man look easy? I spoke on that just a few weeks ago. The priest and Levite took the very much easier path of doing nothing. The Samaritan man's actions were, for him, difficult and inconvenient, and largely unrelated to his feelings. There is oftentimes a sweetness in love, to be sure, but that can come and go. The unselfish actions of love are the constant.

How about loving your enemies? That is typically difficult. When Corie Ten Boom went back to Germany to preach the Gospel, she said that was difficult for her.


Will be on the sidewalk advocating for life today. Catch up with you guys later. Have a good day.

[Wondergirl]

To love because we are told to do so becomes "I must" and "I have to". Or we can thumb our noses at God and say, "No, thanks, am not willing to love [this person] or [that one]". After all, we have free will, right? But if we don't love, how are we punished? Hellfire? After all, disobedience demands punishment.

No, obedience and love do not work well together. We do not love God and other people in an attempt to avoid punishment. God loves us, and His love shines through us and is reflected off us onto others. We love others, not from our own efforts, but because He loved us first and has shown us what agape is.

[jlisenbe]

No, obedience and love do not work well together. We do not love God and other people in an attempt to avoid punishment.

No one said we did. I certainly haven't.

God loves us, and His love shines through us and is reflected off us onto others. We love others, not from our own efforts, but because He loved us first and has shown us what agape is.

That sounds very noble and lovely. The problem is, it does not always work that way in the real world. Was it God's love shining through you and reflecting off you when you took such great delight in calling Donald Trump fat, stupid, and no doubt other pejoratives which you used? Or when you have said "non-loving" things about me, or stood by silently and approvingly while others did? Is that how it works for you?

No, there are times when your description is accurate, but there are other times when love is difficult and inconvenient. That's why Jesus said it was a "commandment" to love God and to love your neighbor. Commandments are clearly there to be obeyed. When it's pleasant, then that's wonderful, but when it's not, and sometimes it's not, then we do it because our Father tells us to and in trusting Him, we accept His commandment. To pretend that love always just "shines through us" effortlessly is to live in a fantasy world.