Why is there belief in purgatory?

Wondergirl · Mar 26, 2009, 08:59 AM

Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

Wondergirl · Mar 26, 2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

I fear that you did not read past the first paragraph.

Ya caught me! I'm at work -- read the first, then skimmed the rest so I wouldn't get fired for not cataloging books.

Tj3 · Mar 26, 2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJ

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

I don't care about denomination specific teachings, but let's look at your other arguments:

Quote:

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Christians have no such concern:

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself pirged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

Quote:

It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV

This does not even need explanation. This has absolutely nothing to do with purgatory. The topic is about men using sound judgment - see verse 57.

Quote:

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.

Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.

Quote:

Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.

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Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:

2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV

JoeT777 · Mar 26, 2009, 06:28 PM

I understand this question is to go beyond ‘proof’ of Purgatory and seems to be asking why Catholics want to believe in purgatory.

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish. (Cf. Lv 21:17-23, 22:21) Futher, God demands of us a perfect love, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart” (Deu 6:5-6). The New Testament echoes this very same requirement for one’s entire love to be directed to God.

Even our works are to be tested for the love of God. The Holy Father John Paul II said that the “Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

Others here have rightly pointed out that Christ is man’s intercessor functioning as the high priest sacrificing himself as compensation for our sins. (Cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). “He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).” Being presented to God upon on death we are called to “cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.”

In our worldly endeavors, we come into contact with sin. Sin is a moral evil that stains the soul, and afflicts the heart. But, those of us who merit entering into a communion with God are blessed to with the fullness of eternal life are united with the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant through purgatory’s purification.

“The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where ‘men will weep and gnash their teeth'” (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

Source: L'Osservatore Romano Weekly Edition in English Heaven: 28 July 1999, 7 Hell: 4 August 1999, 7 Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7

JoeT

arcura · Mar 26, 2009, 06:44 PM

Wondergirl
The Catholic Church teaches about purgatory because...
1. Holy Scripture indicates the existence of Purgatory.
2. The earliest Christians prayed for the dead in Purgatory.
The writings on the walls of the catacombs under Rome where the early Christians hid form their persecutors and worshipped there give testimony to that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Mar 26, 2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Some, not all by any stretch of the imagination, believe that purgatory is a state of being” wherein Christ “removes…the remnants of imperfection” It is this grace whereby the soul is cleansed of sin and the effects of sin. Our faith holds, like the Jews, that to be in the presence of God one must be sacrificially clean without blemish.

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

JoeT777 · Mar 26, 2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

But again,

Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV

Notice that Jesus by Himself purged the sins of those who are saved. It is past tense because after He completed the work on the cross, it says that He sat down.

From my perspective, when God did it all, finished the job, purged all my sins, that was good enough for me. Why would you think that you need to (or indeed even could) pay for sins already purged by Jesus on the cross?

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

JoeT

arcura · Mar 26, 2009, 07:24 PM

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Tj3 · Mar 26, 2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

The opening proposition confines us to the question of ” Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?” How does your response relate to the question?

Because, if Jesus purged our sins on the cross, then why would you want to believe in something which is not scriptural and which is not required?

Tj3 · Mar 26, 2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

Fred,

Some place does not perfect us. Jesus took care of that on the cross:

Heb 10:12-14
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Wondergirl · Mar 26, 2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
We do not have to pay for sins purged.
We need to have our sinful nature purged, cleaned.
Please read the excellent answers on why Purgatory previously give here again.
The explanation is there.
Fred

So Jesus' death on the cross was just not enough to take away all sins.