In response to a question asked by Sndbay

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;

Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate.

cadillac59

Yes, I see the point. But what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what? Are we to worship god merely because he is more powerful than anything else in our world? Are we not to hold him to the same moral standards of everyone else? If not, then why not? These are particularly important questions I recall Bertrand Russell asking but ones I see rarely addressed.

Another excellent reason to embrace deism: if god is not good but does not intervene in human affairs it really doesn't matter.

Altenweg

Hi Elliot,

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you, for some reason I wasn't getting notifications for this thread.

No, I don't know why God created the world and walked away. I don't even know if he did. My belief in Deism is just that, belief. Yes, it is a belief that I based on research but not research that definitely points to Deism. There is no absolute proof that my belief is right, it's just my belief.

Having said that, my answer is based on that belief, not on fact, because there are no facts, not for Deism or any other belief.

Why would God create something as wonderful as this world and then walk away? Well, he's God, a God. Why would I build a bird house and then never watch it to see who comes to use it? Because I can. Why would I start an ant farm then leave it alone to see what happens? Because I can. Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.

There simply isn't any evidence that a loving, caring God exists. Belief in God is just that, belief. To base that belief on a man written book is at least as questionable as my belief. There simply isn't any proof.

Deism makes sense to me. I can keep the belief in God while also making sense of the hardship in this world, the lack of proof that God really does care. In a lot of ways I have the best of both worlds, but I know most of you don't see it that way.

If none of this makes sense please forgive me, I ran out of coffee this morning so I'm drinking tea. It simply doesn't have the same kick.

Altenweg

My question is as simply as yours.

Why would God allow all the suffering?

No one has ever been able to answer this questions sufficiently. All I ever hear as a response to this question is that we're supposed to suffer in order to gain eternal life in heaven.

That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.

I live my life differently. You see, I only have to answer to myself and my family, to the people around me. I'm not perfect, but I don't rely on a God for forgiveness of my sins, therefore I do my best not to sin in the first place. No, I don't always succeed, but I don't always fail either.

elscarta

Let me answer this question with another question. How much do you value your freedom to make your own decisions about anything and everything in your life, your beliefs, thoughts, actions etc?

Free will necessitates a world where suffering is possible, as one of the possible choices that can be made is the hurting of other people.

I'm not saying that free will is the only reason or cause of suffering, just that it is part of it.

You also have mentioned in a previous post, some of the suffering that you have been through in your life. In what way has this suffering affected you, besides changing your belief about God? Has it made you a stronger person, more protective of your family?

Altenweg

My suffering has made me a hard person in many ways. I've put a protective shell around my heart that very few can penetrate. Sadly, I've been told I'm not as tough as I think I am.

The only thing that my suffering has done is made me weary of everything around me. My daughter is 7 years old now, two years older then I was when I was molested. My husband and I don't go out without the kids, there's only one person I trust to watch them and he lives 1 hour away and works most weekends. I'm overly protective in a lot of ways, but I know what monsters lurk in shadows, I won't allow myself to let my guard down. No one is above suspicion, I will not let my children become victims.

I know that one day I will die of cancer. It's inevitable. The sad thing is, both my husband and I have passed those genes to our kids. Both sets of parents died of this disease and it's likely my children will lose their parents to this disease as well.

Yes, my suffering has made me stronger, but I wouldn't wish that "strength" on anyone. What I learned is the worst lesson of all. I found the strength to survive, because I had to, but I'm not a better person for it, not at all.

xoxaprilwine

We can ultimately believe anything and have right to but how can you believe without some sort of faith even if it is blind and not timed? No proof; just faith - to some it is next to impossible and so believe in the theory of logic's, facts – science and to others books and idols. Some believe in both science and universe theories. I am Catholic and I did look into other religions and found that I couldn't be anything more then Catholic in the end. Every religion has rituals, beliefs and some are wonderful to experience. I researched tid-bits into Buddhism, Hinduism, Law of Attraction, Lutheran, Christian and Spiritualist (New Movement), oh and of course the Divinity tools available by psychics (which is like Mediumship, Tarots…etc).

Just my words and thoughts to this wonderful exchange of ideas, being Catholic, and as you all know, as per the Bible, God did create the world and rested on the seventh day (Sunday or Sabbath Day – day of rest/holiness). Since Eve bit the apple then sin began (temptation). It states that we are all born in sin. If we are born sinful then so is the world we live in. God was not impressed and ended up burning a city down, condemned the wicked/pagans etc. Later he flooded the world and washed the sins of man away. After this, he said that he would never flood the world again or interfere with mankind because he loved his creation. He also made us special from all the creatures and gave us the ability to advance (we advanced technologically and scientifically) and that we each have spirit (Life after Death). We have come to the place in life we are; all the good and bad because of the mass movement of ideas and intentions. We also have our history in which we document and learn from and continue to educate new generations in hope that they will succeed where previous have failed. We all live here with purpose. We have choice.

As for God not caring, he does care, care enough not to destroy us but let us destroy ourselves. Yes, in the Catholic religion, God should be loved, respected and feared. We are destructive and unfortunately everyone gets hurt. But the pain we experience here is a test of faith it is apart of the great plan and those that suffer will not suffer but be rewarded with the promise of God - Heaven. The plagues and everything in the Revolutions can be interpreted many, many ways and our end could just be our own demise. As it goes for natural disasters…there is talk about the sun having explosions on the surface (which there is a technical name for but I am NO scientist), earth shifting, poles melting, us utilizing natural resources (jungles, forests, coal, oil, crops – land) the ozone layer being depleted because of garbage, pollution and testing nuclear bombs? The Gay community was plagued by AIDS, the general public was plagued by AIDS, expecting mothers, those committing in unnatural sex (bestiality, child molestation, prostitution…everything) all mankind is infected by STI’s and AID’s and every other plague because of these sins and because we are at the bottom of the food chain (after viruses)…and Because of God? Or because of us as mankind? Look at T.V., Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, Steve Wilkos…and so on and so on…why shouldn’t we be destroyed? We even thrive off of other peoples failures! But still there are some very wonderful things about our world and that is what we should all focus on and preserve. Like a expectant mother, giving life, a flower blooming in the spring, the compassion, family and good people. It looks really bleak but there is good. God exists in you if you believe he does…have faith that he does. He also exists if you do and live honestly…that is the proof – the good in us; the beauty of the world around us physically and how much joy and peace we feel just from one moment...maybe a moment you will carry with you and go to when things just are not going right...its the one experience that keeps you going. But God does know we are doomed...the beauty of it is his patience and ability to forgive as well as our ability to repent and reject sin.

As it goes for the concept of “what if the goals of an omniscient and omnipotent god are not good? What if god is not good? Then what?” It is not the goals of God but the goals of man. Here we can choose to follow the Laws of God but we have no choice but to follow the Law of Man. We are always trying to invent, make life easy, advance technologically, learn, evolve and experience the world and the universe and thus equip ourselves with knowledge tools (space rockets) to obtain the means of understanding our world and that surrounding it. It is the documented history of technology, wars, hardships, misunderstandings or human error, intelligence versus the ego and hate (which is actually fear) which leads to religious debates, genocide, racists, sexists, wars, politics, law, law enforcement, control and weapons. I kind of lean to the fact that we are trying to create a perfect world but we fail to look at the fact that being imperfect is a beautiful thing…look at everything we can share and learn. I don’t know…maybe I am out of line, I just like to point out our own flaws instead of blaming someone, something or everything or anything for our mistakes.

As it goes for the “Book”, honestly, it is listed in time line from apostles to profits, to people like you and me that tell a story. Could it have been based on facts? Or has it been told so many times that is changed from Old to New Testament and Revised? Should we believe? Has the truth been lost? What validation do we need? Where did it originate from and why? We could ask questions or we can have faith in what is being said is true? Our choice. What I do believe is the Bible holds lessons and actually a lot of it is common sense about how we should treat each other, I go by that, but I also have a special relationship with God as well. So from each individual to another it will differ…here is another one, note that there are some remarks that are sexist in the bible like when men talk about God a woman should not discuss it between men – she should hold her tongue (this is why priests are men and not women). Also, that a man should not have sex with us when we are on our period because we are sinful then…as well as 6 weeks after birth. Eve bit the apple so her punishment is ours. Like if one person breaks man made Law then new Laws become evolved to add preventive measures - just because one person carries a gun and commits a crime an innocent, law abiding citizen can not carry a gun because of what someone else done (which of course I don't agree with carrying a gun)...maybe a bad example but I know you got the point. A lot of interesting stuff and in some way it does make sense but again, we choose. History, what a lovely concept but we are slowly getting smarter…that is if we stop being driven by fear and take responsibility. We know that is the impossible.

So as brothers and sisters we should believe and have faith in God, even a deist believes in something – it might not be the Virgin Mary or Jesus Christ but you believe in God. If he created the Universe and everything in it, you, then you should believe in him and trust that he will not destroy something he created nor ignore it…he will and has endowed us to be sinful and to make choices. He hears our prayers but if he solved everything for us then what could we possibly learn? What mankind does to mankind effects everyone and we are to blame ourselves. No one can tell you what not or what to believe in. Unfortunately, everyone defends their faith but we should do everything with love and compassion. Maybe religion is constructed to breed fear in misbehavior of what is morally right? But then again, people are entitled to believe and they also are entitled not to. Maybe I am an idealist or a humanitarian…my thoughts.

Yes I type really fast - hehe

elscarta

Regarding the ant farm, do you know of anyone who has started an ant farm and then left them all to die from starvation as this would be the end result if you were to just walk away from it? Also what would that say about the morality of the person who did it? (If you don't think it is a problem to do it to insects then imagine doing the same to mice or cats etc)

xoxaprilwine

Of course they are going to die, they have no natural resources...we do. We where given everything for survival...poor ants they are in a glass relying on the owner to provide.

Altenweg

Okay, the ant farm was a bad example. The bird house is more apt.

Having said that, I have built a bird house, a really nice one I might add, and then walked away. I assume that birds have lived in it, they may even enjoy it. I don't know because I never checked. I built it for the birds, not so that I could nurture and care for them, but because I wanted to build it. What they do with it now that it's built is up to them and none of my concern. I'm just the creator.

In your post you seem to think that God is moral. Of course I have a problem with people who harm any living thing, except flies and mosquitos, they're fair game. The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?

I'm actually being far kinder to the idea of God then you are. You see, I believe in the bird house where you actually do believe in the ant farm. The only difference is, in your ant farm he doesn't walk away, he's actually very involved, sees their pain and does nothing about it.

xoxaprilwine

In death there is rebirth. I am sorry for your suffering. I have been told by many elders that the closer you are to death; the closer you become to God. Only when you can face death; you can truly live. You are truly a remarkable person.