In response to a question asked by Sndbay

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;

Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate.

sndbay

Altenweg,

By your own admission you reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, and can determine using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for faith.

So let me say that I am not unsympathic to your experiences in life. I, myself have experienced the lost of my father, and my first husband by cancer. My sister, and I have both, experience sexual lust by evil gain. Both reacting in a similar determined matter to your own, in thinking it was bettter not to tell anyone.
I reason the delusion of thoughts we share, as a lack of knowledge (age fact) in what discipine for each individual should be. And that fact does give the assailant reason to think nothing will be said to stop them.

I would like reason for what has caused our public to lightly put their foot down, and treat the offensive behavior as only perhaps less then normal. What has by all previous experience shown the results of rape should be measured more lightely then the death penalty of an infant by a rape victim. Most usually this reasoning is tipped one way and the other, rather then by a straight line of discernment. (right or wrong)

Tell me by reasoning, if we gave the death penalty to the assailant would it engage a more likely assumption to not risk ing their own life?

My point being that the reasoning that you have found more comfort with rather then surrendering to the will of God, is likely to be God's all knowing ability in permitting us to reap what we have sown.

I have walked both sides of right and wrong,(we all do) and I am not proud of the hurt and pain my path has done, and has suffered. And I believe that is why we needed Christ for our forgiveness. I trust NOW in the One Baptism that gives me a conscience toward God's Will being done. And I pray to never hurt or cause pain for anyone.. that evil will bow down and flee from me.

Because by all reasoning we have all done things we are not pleased to look back on.


Altenweg, you have, and are what you believe "That God has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life "


God does permit you what your heart believes

ETWolverine

Altenweg,

Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?

Why would he create this emmense, incredibly intricate and complex universe, and then walk away from it completely?

Why would the "Watchmaker" make the most incredible watch ever built, and never use it, look at it, check it, wind it, repair it, keep it shiny or show it to others?

That's the part that gets me most about Deism... the idea that a super-intelligent being with ultimate powers could and did create a universe, just to walk away from it after doing so... for absolutely no discernable purpose.

Elliot

cadillac59

This points to one of the questions I've raised before, namely why what we think ought to be so must be so? There are many things about the natural world that just don't seem right, that make us cringe and want to rebel. But not liking the way things are doesn't change reality. Why have so many human tragedies happened just when they did? For example, why did AIDS hit the gay community when it did destroying the lives of about half the gay men in my generation? How could something like that happen? That it seemed impossible or crazy at the time didn't change the fact that it happened.

So the point is that not liking the idea of an indifferent god, perhaps a deist version of god, has no logical connection to whether that god does or doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

elscarta

But then this can also be applied to many of your previous statements in many other threasds regarding the non existance of a caring God. Just because you don't like the idea of a caring God who allows suffering for reasons which are beyond our understanding has no logical connection to whether that God does, or doesn't exist!

cadillac59

I agree. Which is why I ask that the argument move beyond the childish "It just doesn't seem right" level.

But that doesn't mean you cannot ask better questions like this one of Bertrand Russell's: If you were granted omniscience, omnipotence and millions upon millions of years in which to perfect your world, do you really think the best you could come up with would be the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan?

ohsohappy

I found this and sent this in a message, what do you make of this article?

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin - Yahoo! News

elscarta

But Altenweg gives as the main reason for her believing in Deism "is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do." This is at the same "It just doesn't seem right" level and so Elliot's question "Can you explain WHY G-d would do such a thing?" is valid and needs to be asnwered.

I disagree that this is a better question. It argues that an omniscient and omnipotent God should be able to create a perfect world, and since the world is far from perfect, even after millions upon millions of years, therefore an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot exist. But really what it argues is that "If the ultimate goal of an omniscient and omnipotent God is a perfect world then since the world is far from perfect even after millions upon millions of years such a God has had more than enough time to create a perfect world and therefore cannot exist."

Two problems I see with this question are:
How do we know what are the ultimate goal(s) of an omniscient and omnipotent God?
Millions upon millions of years is infinitesimally small compared to eternity so what is an appropriate time frame for achieving the ultimate goal(s)?

NeedKarma

That falls right into the "religion is based on faith no facts" argument. If the timeline is long enough then no one will ever the "intended" result.

elscarta

Not so, I was just trying to point out that God is outside of time and therefore not subject to the same time constraints as we are. Also while it has been nearly 15 billion years since the beginning of the universe, it has not been very long that we have been able to think about God, and our relationship with God is one of the other possible ultimate goals.

NeedKarma

I guess my point is that you can promise the masses pretty much anything if it's never going to happen in their lifetime.