In response to a question asked by Sndbay

I believe that God created the universe, with the help of science, then he walked away. I don't believe that he bothers himself with his creation.

My reasoning is the suffering in the world, the hardship. If there was a caring God then he wouldn't allow his children to suffer the way they do.

Plagues, wars, tornadoes, murder, rape, illness. Too much proof that God doesn't care about us, but has washed his hands of his creation.

Most times, when I give the reason for my belief in Deism, I'm told that the suffering is part of his great plan, that the suffering will lead to eternal life. Well, to me that's just further proof that God doesn't care. Live in hell so you can go to heaven? Where's the love in that?

As for my belief. Let me describe Deism;

Want to know more?

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For once, Wickepedia is very accurate.

Altenweg

You seem to think that there is a choice. There is no rejection, no acceptance, it is what it is, nothing more nothing less. I see no proof that God intervenes, therefore I believe that God doesn't intervene.

You're lucky. You have life insurance, you have people that will care for your children, the little boy I spoke of doesn't. How can you not understand why I'm bringing this up? This little boy isn't just a story I made up, he's very real, he's at this moment trying his very best to survive. There are thousands more just like him. What I want to know is where is God. If he can cure cancer, like some of you claim, then certainly he can take care of this little boy. Why doesn't he, because he doesn't intervene.

Exactly! Every day we're learning more about how our world works, why things happen. Just like I said, there will be a scientific explanation for those supposed miraculous cures of cancer. Just because we haven't figured it out yet doesn't mean we won't.

I'm sorry but I still don't see any evidence that God intervenes. Everything you all have mentioned aren't miracles, they aren't proof. I wish they were but they're not.

Altenweg

If you have a point it sure would be nice for you to post it and not just try and egg me on by copying what I wrote.

I'm assuming that you don't have anything to say which is why you said nothing.

Truly, if you have something to add then I'd love to hear it. I think I've proven that I'm willing to listen, that if something sounds logical I will consider it. So far nothing has sounded logical, at least not to me, but your post makes no sense at all, it's just arguement and that's not why I'm here.

If that's what you want then please find another playground, I'm not interested in getting into a fight.

Wondergirl

You said you walked away from a totaled car. I wondered why you don't consider that a miracle.
But you can't be with that child and control him every minute of his or her life, so condoms can be left wrapped/unused and birth control pills not taken because "I want a baby to love" or "they're too much trouble." Or are you going to chaperone every date until the wedding day? You do your best to parent, but it still comes down to the fact that the child has free will and can make his own decisions that wouldn't have been your decisions. God gave us the Ten Commandments as a rule book, and Jesus told us to treat each other in the ways we would want that person to treat us. But we still do our own thing and make our own choices.

Altenweg

Where did I say that?

I was in a car wreck, a four car pile up, I didn't walk away without a scratch, in fact I feel pain from that accident every day. It wrecked my back, there's nothing they can do. It also made my collar bone drop down and now it's squishing the muscle between the collar bone and first rib. I can't feel my left arm, it constantly feels like it's asleep, numbness. Only an operation can fix it and it's not an operation the doctors want to perform, it's too dangerous, could leave me without use of my arm period. Right now I have use of it, I just can't feel it.

So no, I don't consider that a miracle, I also don't remember mentioning it here. I think you're all thinking of someone else.

Wondergirl

I'm sorry. I'm wrong. Inthebox had said that in the same box as when he pulled down your post. He posted in the box and also under it.

But even regarding the actual accident you were in, you could have been killed -- and you weren't. (And I'm sorry to hear of the pain you're in.)

Now what about my second paragraph above, that as a parent you finally give your child free will and trust him to make the right choices? Or be with him every day and every minute to make sure he does the right thing.

elscarta

Altenweg, the point in my last posting was that you accused us of wanting to have it both ways, ie when it suited our argument God intervenes, but when it didn't God doesn't intervene implying that we should be consistent.

But then in the same posting you were inconsistent in dismissing an unexplainable cure of cancer with an appeal to a future explanation being found, but demanding an explanation for an "unexplainable" absence of God in that boy's life.

Coupled with this was your dismissive comment that a very real and powerful moment in my life when God spoke to me was just my conscience speaking to me, treating me as if I was stupid not to know my own conscience.

Sorry that I let this get the better of me.

Altenweg

I never said that you're stupid. If you took it that way then I'm very sorry, that's not how I intended it.

As for letting it get the better of you, I understand that completely, I'm in that boat too often myself.

At this point of the discussion I think it's best that we just agree to disagree. Obviously we're starting to get to each other, but not in a good way. I have no desire to turn this into a fight, Christians against Deist, I'm outnumbered.

We've all had the chance to voice our beliefs and the reasons for them. At this point we're just going around in circles, repeating ourselves, getting nowhere.

I still believe that Deism is the right choice for me, but I will keep an open mind. I also believe that anyone's choice, no matter what it is, is the right choice. If it brings you peace then who am I to say you're wrong?

Thank you all for joining in the discussion, I value you input and thoughts.

Take care.

Alty.

elscarta

Hi Altenweg,
since my last post I have been thinking about your request for proof that miracles occur. I remembered a story that I was told when I was young about a man who had a gaping wound in his leg with a three cm piece of bone clearly missing and the ends of the bone dead.

Searching the internet I found out that the man's name was Pierre de RUDDER.

Case 1 in this link is a full description of what happened.

Also I found the following book on the internet

Medical proof of the miraculous : a clinical study

which goes into great detail examining this miracle (and others) showing why it is impossible to explain except as a divine miracle.

Some of the points are:
- 3 cm bone regenerated near instantaneously
- not enough phosphorus in the body to create that much bone
- dead bone tissue at end of each part of the break no longer there

please take the time to read the links and then let me know what you think.

Altenweg

Hi Elscarta,

I'll take a look. Give me a few days, it's been pretty nuts here right now. I just started a new job and I'm juggling all the kid stuff as well. Homework is hard. Wait... aren't they supposed to be doing it? I may have to rethink this.

I will look at it but it may take some time. Give me until Monday, my time.