Okay, I wanted more opinions on this. My mom got this email and sent it to me:

I would rather say Happy whatever for each holiday then just say "Happy Holidays"
If people get so offended by saying "Merry Chirstmas" Dont they know that some people get offended if you say Happy Holidays? What do you guys think?

De Maria

Too cold.

This very country. Abortion is the law of the land. Most Christians believe abortion is murder of the unborn.

We, responsible Christians, will continue to work through the Political System and the Law to have that overturned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

NeedKarma

That's what I figured. Travelling and meeting people from different religions, beliefs, colours, races, ethicities, etc. truly broadens the horizon. Living in fear of change is like being in your own little prison.

Us non-religious persons are also working towards making sure that no one religion or theocracy dominates.

kp2171

several years ago, disappointed over the retail push to have christmas stuff out starting in late sept, early oct at the latest, my wife and i started calling the corporate holiday marathon Christhankoween.

now, every year, when the blinking lights and ornaments are being shelved next to the back to school clearance racks, we blandly and coldy say

"oh goody. its Christhankoween already."

=P

but then im an irritable, cranky, judgemental hack and it gives me another thing to complain about.

NeedKarma

Happy Festivus!

margog85

De Maria:

I will make one final attempt to say my piece here, and leave it at that. I really don’t have the time and energy to say the same thing in 10 different ways, hoping to make myself clear, and then have what I say picked apart condescendingly by you. This, therefore, is my final post on the mater.

You accuse me of not being happy in the U.S. and basically indicate that since I’m not happy, I should just leave. I stated that I disagree with that mentality (‘if you don’t like it, leave’) and you pick at my use of the word ‘necessarily’... to make what point, I’m not quite sure... perhaps to paint me as wishy-washy and not saying what I mean? Whatever the reason for your comment may be, my belief is this: in certain situations, circumstances in a country can become unbearable and all hope of progress in the foreseeable future is lost- at which point, walking away may be justifiable. Until that point of hopelessness is reached, however, it is our duty as citizens of a democracy to stand up for our beliefs and work to make changes that we feel are for the betterment of our society and our country.

I have never once made a statement in this discussion in which I ‘beat up America in comparison to other countries’- if I remember correctly, it was YOU who drew the comparison of the U.S. to other countries- and I did not respond that other countries were better or worse, but simply that I am happy in the U.S., but that, as with any society, there are imperfections and things with which I am not entirely pleased, and stated my belief that it is the responsibility of each citizen to work for the changes they wish to see.

Do not try to make me out as ‘anti-American’ because I believe that religious holidays need not be recognized by corporations (which exploit the holiday and distort the true meaning anyway). If you think that an attack on my credibility by painting me as ‘unpatriotic’, or acting as though you are a victim to my relentless personal attacks, will sway people into agreeing with your perspective, you are wrong.

‘Again you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I’m saying?

I have made every effort to keep this discussion civil and respectful- there is absolutely no need for the condescending tone in this response. Your original statement was ‘All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.’ To which I responded that while that is your belief, it should not be imposed upon others who do not share your belief (by this belief being law, the belief IS imposed upon those who disagree). Maybe I should not fault you for your inability to understand, though... you simply may lack the ability to comprehend the difference between the statement ‘which you feel should be imposed upon others who do not share your belief’ (and see that law based on religious morals IS an imopsition of specific moral beliefs upon non-believers) and your accusation that I said ‘you are imposing your beliefs upon others’.

Religious beliefs should not play a role in the determination of laws for those who do not share those religious beliefs- doing so converts religious moral law to federal and/or state law, and therefore makes our country a theocracy. You make the absurd accusation that I would ‘be real happy if [i] could impose [my] beliefs on everyone’- an extremely idiotic and ignorant statement. If this were the case, I would be doing what oh so many Christians do… trying to enact a law prohibiting straight people from marrying- telling straight people that they can either find a nice person of the same sex and settle down, be alone, or settle for a relationship that deserves no legal recognition.

Instead, I believe there should be equality and that religious beliefs should not impact federal or state law- if you don’t agree that gay marriage is 'right', if it’s against your religious beliefs, then don’t marry someone of the same sex. Plain and simple. But don’t think that others, who do believe that gay marriage is fine based on their religious beliefs, or even based upon secular moral beliefs that reinforce a respect for the equality of all people, should be limited in legal protection and unable to marry the person they love. THAT is the imposition of the beliefs of one group upon another that does not share those beliefs. Whether you want to call it that or not, is up to you. But do not turn around and make accusations of me trying to impose my beliefs upon anyone. I think it is clear to any intelligent individual who has been following this discussion that that is far from the truth.

Once again, I am not getting any further into the gay marriage debate here, it is off topic. I will discuss this with you in another thread should you choose to start it, but I will not debate you on this issue in a thread relating to the asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, irregardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday. It makes no sense. It's illogical.

If there is any issue to be fought here by Christias, it should be the COMMERCIALIZATION of your sacred holiday, not that the companies which are exploiting your religious tradition of exchanging gifts (a tradition stolen from the Pagan religions, mind you) say the holiday by name. You have the right to protest whatever you like- and I have the right to tell you that I think it’s ludicrous that of all things, THIS is a major issue for many Christians this time of year.

De Maria

Are you sure?

To make the point that in some cases you believe people should leave if they don't like the country in which they live. Its an anchor point. Establishing a point of agreement. You made it sound as though we disagree completely. As though leaving was altogether bad. But you did not make an absolute stance, since "necessarily" is absolute then 'not" necessarily is not..

Well, yeah. The thought had crossed my mind.

My point exactly. It is obvious that our forefathers in this country left their homeland for that very reason.

And you see, coming from you thats sounds strange. Because you seem to object to Christians trying make things better for society and our country.

Ask yourself this question. If you don't care whether a person says "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas", then why do you object when a Christian wants to say Merry Christmas?

And if you do care when one says "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays", why don't you understand when others care about it as well?

In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

Thats good. I simply made an explanation as to why I made the statement originally.

No actually. I'm just pointing out that you are very prone to tell people what you believe but you object vehemently when anyone expresses a belief which disagrees with yours.

Note that I punctuated that with, "that is what I believe." Not with, "that is what you should believe". Therefore, I am simply informing you on where I stand on the matter.

If you feel that is an imposition of my belief upon yours, then where is the basis for a civil discussion? I can't speak my mind. Whenever I do, I am accused of imposing my belief.

Well, you didn't quite quote yourself. You kind of tweaked the language a bit to make it more palatable. Your exact words were:

Uh? I think it is the other way around. I see a great big difference in the population getting together and peacefully voting whose belief will be implemented by majority rule AND the idea that I am imposing my belief upon anybody.

Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority. Its not a perfect system, but it works better than any other democracy or other government in the world today. In my opinion.

I don't agree. Our religious beliefs, or lack thereof are intimate parts of our being. We can't shed them and act as though we believe one thing at one time and another thing the next.

Just as you have stated that you believe in standing up for your nonreligious beliefs, we believe in standing up for our religious beliefs.

And that seems to be your only problem. You don't mind imposing your beliefs on others. But you don't even want to consider that a majority of people might come to agreement on a Christian ethic as a part of our rule of law.

Which you don't find quite idiotic or ignorant when you make the same accusation towards me? Very interesting.

In other words, you believe everyone should be apathetic. You want Christians to quit trying to make the world better as they see fit.

And I believe they should.

Well, this is way off topic, but the argument isn't as simple as you make it. And the fact is that all rights have their limits. And imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

And again, if homosexuals gather enough strength to change society's opinion, they can change the law. Just as abortionists have changed the law in their favor.

I too will let reasonable people decide.

Agreed.

Again, you are characterising me as making an "asinine insistence that everyone everywhere, irregardless of their religious belief should wish everyone everywhere a Merry Christmas, even if the person they are wishing it to doesn’t celebrate the holiday."

Obviously, anyone who reads my statements will see that my only insistence is that Christians also have the right to object and that Christians should also vote wth their dollars.

Which we do.

Not true. It is a strictly Christian tradition. Just because pagans may have also done something similar does not mean we copied them.

However, even if we did, which we didn't, what's the harm? And, what do you care? You aren't Christian.

Actually, its not a MAJOR issue.. Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our [b]Holy Day[/B In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.

That;s freedom!.

As for major issues. Feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and visiting the lonely. Those are major Christian issues.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

Living in a metropolitan town helps also.

What change are you afraid of?

That is fine. Please stick to legal means to do so.

kp2171

ok... no matter how i feel about all the other points in this fray, you just cannot whine about how those who arent happy in this country wont leave, and then state proudly that you are happy to stay here and fight for what you believe through the political system.

you just gotta drop the "if you dont like it leave" angle you threw in there. it weakens your arguement.

everytime i hear that... and most of the time lately its someone b!tching about how people who are against the war are against the country and should leave... it just makes me think of 5th grade debate.

as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean i was around others who believed as me, but im not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. if a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude i couldnt care less.

my son will learn about God through his family and his church. i dont need his school or his favorite toystore to indoctrinate him in any religious beliefs.

De Maria

You've just confirmed that my simple words, "that is what I wanted you to say" were right on the money. I meant that I simiply wanted you to clarify your stance. Previously you sounded very one-sided. But when you specified that you believed in those freedoms also for Christians, that is what I wanted you to say. In other words, there is no argument there.

See the little "?" at the end. That means its a question. Since all you mentioned were Christians misbehaving, I wanted you to clarify whether you are insinuating that only Christians misbehave?

A simple "no" would have sufficed.

I guess I need more than a stranger's say so on the internet. I'm sorry if you think that means I am accusing you of lying. But I've met quite a few people who make unsubstantiated statements. Now, if you could point to a headline or a news article or some tangible proof that Christians are known to go into your library and tear up books, then I'll be more likely to believe it.

Just last week I was in a debate with an atheist who said that "all intelligent people in this century were atheist". I challenged that statement and she got all bent out of shape. But it seems strange to me that only atheists should be intelligent and only Christians tear books apart in libraries.

Thanks. I reserve the right to respond to any anti-Christian messages you might write however.

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria

Like you are whining now?

I don't think so.

That wasn't my point though, was it? When you decide to discuss what I actually said, let me know.

But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

That's great. But that is pretty much off topic. There's another thread on prayer in school or you can start one of your own.

Sincerely,

De Maria