"Happy Holidays"?

Why do you have to insult them by calling them hypersensitive? Can you or any non-Christians on this forum have a simple discussion without resorting to name callling and insults?

No, in my opinion, they are not hypersensitive. They are simply responding to the anti-Christian atmosphere which has pervaded the country in the last 40 years.

And no, the term "Happy Holidays" meaning "Happy Christmas Holidays" is not offensive. But the idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

No, I'm not. Department stores are rarely government sponsored and certainly, small restaurants and stores are not government sponsored. They have been harrassed in the past and are continually being harrassed for saying "Merry Christmas". As have private individuals.

Apparently, they do. They were a major force in changing the longstanding law against abortion ...

The ACLU was the first national organization to argue for abortion rights ...
American Civil Liberties Union : The ACLU And Women's Rights: Proud History, Continuing Struggle

...and are now a major force in making anti-Christian legislation. They are not alone of course, they have allies in some of the media and other areas.

But, if you can prove that they have nothing to do with it or that they have only a minor role in this plan, provide your evidence.

Now you are simply being argumentative. I explained our side of the argument. In my opinion, a minority of is being led by the ACLU in an anti-Christian agenda which intends to impose the will of the minority on the majority.

At this point, you have already stated that opinion before, if you have nothing new to support it, then move on.

Another argumentative opinion without proof. I have provided the evidence that it is under attack. Either provide something new or there is no need to continue repeating your opinion.

I disagree for previously mentioned reasons. Again, unless you have anything new, continued repetition of the same statement is simply argumentative.

For previously mentioned reasons, I believe it has. Again, unless you can substantiate your answers a simple repetitive denial of my assertions does not make you right. Contrary to Hitler's opinion, repeating a lie often enough does not make it believable.

Again, for previously mentioned and documented reasons, I believe it has. What are you going to do, just keep coming back with unsupported denials. If you've got a new argument, make it. If not, why continue? Do you just want to have the last word?

What? Up to now you've been the most polite non-Christian I've spoken to on this forum. But here you're insinuating that I've not been "tempering" my tone on this forum. That's the same game the others have been playing. Accuse, infer and insinuate. Provide the proof that I have not tempered my tone in any of my communications.

What you should do is learn to respond to the message which is written. Not to your wishful thinking. You wish that I were being untempered. But I simply meet fire with fire and I back up my fire with facts.

So, here's some advice, if you want a tempered tone from me, address me in a tempered tone. Otherwise you get what you dishout. Fair enough?

Yes, regardless of your continued protests on the matter it is evident that some people are trying to do just that.

Not yet. But we will remain vigilant to make sure that no one ever gets the power to actually do so in this country as they are already doing in others.

No need to tell me. Inform your anti-Christian friends. Cause we don't intend to change any further.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It's the word "exclusively" in your statement that makes it factually incorrect. Christianity has been the religion of the majority, yes, but other religions and their traditions have been present and flourished here from Colonial times, and tolerance of all religions is firmly embedded in the Constitution.
Yes, and thankfully, a majority of US citizens and voters still honor the Founders' vision of tolerance for all religions, and understand the wisdom of prohibiting the Government from establishing or favoring one religion over others.

Ever stop to think that maybe it's not a 'game the others have been playing' and that there might be some truth to the things being said?

And by the way, do not assume that I know nothing about Christianity or Christians.

Raised Catholic. Attended religious ed from grades 1-10. Participated in youth group from grade 9-12. Upon graduation from high school I volunteered as a Youth Leader in the church youth group for 4 years and taught 4th, 5th and 6th grade religious ed. Volunteered for at least 4-5 years in summer Vacation Bible School. Gave talks at teen retreats and lock-ins. Chaperoned and participated in annual summer retreats. Attended and participated in church events sponsored by both Catholic and other Christian denominations. I was surrounded by Catholics and Christians my entire life.

So please, do not tell me that I have limited exposure to Christians and Christianity.

Do not make assumptions about me that suit your need to make me look like I have no ground to stand on when I make a statement about something Christian-related.

No, I hereby offer it to you.

I gave you an opportunity to prove that it was true. But there's a good reason why you couldn't. I never made the offending statements you attributed to me and insinuated about me. Therefore, I can easily identify the game you are playing. It is a form of fallacious argument called "building strawmen":
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess exposure to a subject does not equate to koowledge or love of the subject.

Sooo? Why are you accusing me of making assumptions about you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Ok, if you'd like a list of the things you've said which were condescending, nasty, twisting-what-was actually-said to suit your needs, exaggerations, etc. Here it is. I'm sure I missed quite a few, but I'm in a rush right now:

MARGOG85: You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways.'

DE MARIA: Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

(Making assumptions based on what I said to make me seem anti-American, when I was simply stating that there are still groups within the U.S. That are oppressed.)

MARGOG85: (In regard to the Christian belief that gay marriage should not be legalized) And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

DE MARIA: Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone?. Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying? ...Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

(condescending and accusatory- acting as thought I want to impose my beliefs upon others when I'm merely advocating that people should have the freedom to make their own decisions and not have their private lives dictated by laws which stem from religious beliefs that are not their own)

DE MARIA: In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

(again, making assumptions- I do not object to people being vocal, I simply speak up when I disagree with their perspective to try and bring some logic into view- and what makes you think I am only objecting to things Christian and nothing else? Making the assumption that I agree with all things non-Christians may say and am against everything Christians say is a stretch in what you could actually know from this brief discussion)

DE MARIA: Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority.

(condesending)

DE MARIA: imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

(twisting my words- I never said homosexuality should be imposed upon society, simply that limiting the freedom of others based on the religious beliefs of one group is wrong)

DE MARIA: See the little "?" at the end. That means its a question.
(condescending)

KP2171: as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

DE MARIA: But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

(Condescending and sarcastic)

MARGOG85: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

DE MARIA: You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

(twisting things I've said)

MARGOG85: And people like ME make you feel victimized

DE MARIA: You said it yourself.

(removed the question mark from my statement to twist it into what you wanted)

DE MARIA: What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

(accusations without basis- my agenda is not anti-Christian it is pro-inclusion; I am not at fault if some hypersensitive Christians feel that including others in turn excludes them)

MARGOG85: That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

DE MARIA: That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

(condescendingly making the assumption that my statements are based upon limited knowledge)

DE MARIA: you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way

(I've done no such thing- intentionally distorting the truth)

MARGOG85: I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

DE MARIA: In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

(twisting what I've said to make me out to be the bad guy)

MARGOG85: Inclusion

DE MARIA: Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

(twisting what I said and making inferences without grounds)

MICHAELB: Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

DE MARIA: Thanks. But we know.

(sarcastic and condescending)

MICHAELB: What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

DE MARIA: I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

(condescending and accusatory remarks made in response to a simple statement)

DE MARIA: NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

(assumption that only Christians know what they're talking about)

DE MARIA: why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harassment.....
The idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

(exaggeration of the situation at hand- no one is making Christians fearful of saying 'Merry Christmas'- Christians are reacting to non-religious institutions, such as WALMART not recognizing their religion)

And as far me having exposure to Christianity but not having a love for or knowledge of it- I do have an appreciation for Christianity and I have a wealth of knowledge, more so than many Christians I've encountered in my time. - if I did not at a time have a love for it, why would I have been involved in the long list of activities, events, and volunteer positions I listed to you? As I've already said, I spent a great part of my life in church, teaching, volunteering, praying, reading the Bible, as well as a number other Theological texts- as I was growing up my mother was obtaining her Masters degree in Theology and we discussed her classes and the information she was learning regularly. I assisted her in reviewing and writing papers. When she became a Theology teacher in a Catholic high school I assisted her in the development of lesson plans. I taught Christianity to children. I am knowledgeable in theological matters and have enough experience under my belt to make informed statements and observations without being ridiculed for being just another critical, stupid atheist as you apparently wanted to assume I was.

So please do not make the self righteous, arrogant, and entirely incorrect assumption that because I disagree with you I do not have any appreciation for or knowledge of Christianity. I simply have come to realize that it is not my path.

In the words of Gandhi- 'I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

Because I believe that discussion with those of alternate opinions are an essential component of becoming a well rounded and intelligent person. I also believe that I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a rigt to yours. Although I may not agree, I present my perspective, which I believe to be logical. Contrary to your accusation, I am not harassing Christians about what they believe- I never criticized a Christian for believing in Jesus as their savior, for belief in one God, for belief in the resurrection, for their celebration of their holidays. I have no qualms whatsoever with Christianity. It is with the attitude of Christians that I take issue- and this is an issue which impacts not only Christians, but others as well.

I'm sure we can continue debating until next Christmas and never get very far- I persist because my perspective seems to me to be simple and logical- if you don't know what someone celebrates, why assume? Celebrate your holiday as you wish. Wish those who you know celebrate Christmas a Merry Christmas. But don't expect to hear it from those who just don't know and opt not to make an assumption that you are Christian. Don't harrass those who are working their a$$es off to make ends meet at a minimum wage job for saying 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'. As someone said before on this thread, it just seems so petty.

Thanks for posting these. Although you put your own spin on the matter, they pretty much highlight that I responded in kind to condescending statements.

No. Here you actually argued that the US is as oppressive in some ways as countries like Red China and some Islamic countries and I responded sarcastically to a ridiculous statement. I still consider your response ridiculous. I think you were simply being argumentative. If you want me to take your statement seriously, simply provide one instance of an American situation like Iran lining up an shooting all the gay people and Red China putting Christians in death camps.

No, and your new response shows that my statement was right on the money. First, you accuse me of wanting to impose my beliefs. Which I don't. I want "due process." That means I will live with whatever the majority agrees upon. That is the American way.

But to you, the American way, the democratic process, is apparently a system in which the majority's beliefs are imposed on the minority. Well, I guess you have the right to look at it that way. But its an erroneous viewpoint and the democratic process beats the pants out of having the minority dictate what the majority should do.

Actually, that is just a question. All you had to do was clarify any false assumptions. Why not just answer with, "For your information, I object when nonChristians are vocal about such and such...." But instead, you chose to pretend you were being victimized?

So, prove me wrong. To which non-Christian cause do you object?

No. Sarcasm. You live in a democracy and pretend it is an unjust system imposing the will of the majority on the minority.

Note that I didn't say that YOU were imposing homosexuality upon society. So again, you pretend to be victimized when you are not being victimized.

[No, a simple question that I addressed to Jillian. Here it is and I quote, "...are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?"

A reasonable person would have simply answered it, "yes" or "no".

In response to a condescending and sarcastic remark, "panties in a wad".

And this is a clear example of YOUR lack of partiality. Its fine and dandy for this fellow to characterize Christians who object to "Happy Holidays" as having their panties in a wad. But when I respond in kind, you accuse me of rudeness?

No, I explained why your conclusion is anti-Christian bigotry in the next response.

That is true. It was sarcasm and a play on words.

You pretty much proved your anti-Christian agenda with your biggotted statement, which you haven't withdrawn I might add.

As for this "inclusion" thing. Understand that forcing people to include or be included is a form of coercion. As Christians we believe in the equality of people and respect their dignity in the eyes of man. But we reserve the right to choose that into which we will be included.

CONT'D

CONT'D
Thats not an assumption, that is a fact.

Ok, I guess that two.

It sure seems that you want to force me to agree with you. Otherwise, you should have agreed to disagree a long time ago. But you keep coming back and twisting my words as though that's going to help convince me of your argument.

Again, explain yourself. I think I have plenty of grounds. Apparently you feel jilted if you aren't included in something. Or perhaps if someone doesn't agree with you. Otherwise, explain yourself. That's the impression I get. If you don't.

I think it sarcastic and condescending of him to pretend to tell me what I already know. How do you suggest that I respond, " Oh thanks, I sure didn't know that. I'll go right out and shop at the nearest store of my choosing."

Get real!

Honest question. He complains when Christians express their frustatrions. Does he complain when nonChristians do the same?

Its not an assumption. Many non-Christians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

Here's just one example from Google:

Why Does Christmas Last So Long? - The PhoneBoy Vox
Why in the hell does Christmas seem to start before Thanksgiving and end at New Years? It's one day, and oh by the way, it's meant to celebrate the birth of Christ ...
Phoneboy.vox.com/library/post/why-does-christmas-last-so-long.html - 77k -

Since so many Christians are expressing concern over the matter, you just have to google the internet to find out, I don't think I am exaggerating at all.

You didn't answer my question. Why did you feel that I had asked you for your life history? I don't remember saying anything about you directly which would result in your giving me your entire life history. I mean, its nice and everything, but what's the point. You still behave like an anti-Christian.

And, if you respect Christians as you say, you might want to exhibit that respect. I won't take it for granted that you respect Christians when you continually belittle their efforts to keep Christ in Christmas.

Another example of your anti-Christian bigotry..

For information, Ghandi was a Hindu. His personification of Christ as a total pacifists was a complete misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Here is what Jesus would say about those who misuse the Word of God:

Matthew 23 33 You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?

Therefore, Jesus did not respond kindly to people misrepresenting His Word. As for me, I follow Christ. As St. Paul, another follower of Christ once said:

1 Corinthians 9

16 For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me, for a necessity lieth upon me: for woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel.

And saying Merry Christmas is my small way of preaching the Gospel.

Sorry for the lengthy response. I didn't want to leave anything out lest I be accused of selectively responding to the message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

margog I had to spread some more rep; but I think you have identified the troll in this conversation, point by point!