[raggablue]

I am more likely to believe your statement if you revesed it to
I don't think you know many NON drug users.
Everyone I know from my parents to my teacher have and do use drugs, in fact one of the few people I know who doesn't use drugs makes his living growing cannabis.

only a tiny tiny percentage of drug users D0 N0T develop an addiction.

I would like to see your evidence to support this, frankly ridiculous statement. I can bet that your boss, your partner/friends and even your local bobby are drug users.
Please reply as I am fascinated to hear what wisdom you will present next

[ISneezeFunny]

So... we're arguing about effects of drugs. Should have gotten J_9 in here.

I'm going to respond as far as addiction to drugs. I disagree with ragga saying that a tiny percentage of drug users develop an addiction. This couldn't be further from the truth. MANY develop an addiction to drugs. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that they're dysfunctional. There are PLENTY of drug users who use heavily but are still very functional.

I agree with ragga in that our bosses, friends, local grocery baggers, and sometimes even our pastors/priests do use drugs. There are a LOT of drug users that we're not aware of.

[N0help4u]

LOL
Just because somebody can maintain a 'normal' work and social life doesn't mean they are not addicted. They just are able to maintain a structured schedule while doing it. You say they are not addicted. Can YOU prove that? Your definition of addict seems faulty. You use professionals using drugs as an example but many pilots, Judges, lawyers, CEO's and others go to work high so what does that prove? If they have to go to work high it proves more of a point that they are addicted than not.

Addicts that are always strung out would never even admit they are addicted. Addicts are in denial whether they can hide it or it is obvious. Unless they can stay away from their addiction they are addicted in some way, shape or form.
I would like to see your break down of percentages of people who only do drugs recreationally with NO addiction, the percentage that are mentally addicted and the percentage that are physically addicted and how long each group can and do actually go without.

I DO know many non drug users that don't do drugs of any kind, not even cigarettes, alcohol or weed.
I have a feeling you figure that many people do at least one drug of some sort which is a false premise from the get-go.
I never did drugs but I have seen my ex husband and all his friends, 3 ex boyfriends, and all their friends and many of my friends and neighbors from many places I have lived. My one ex boyfriend was an alcoholic and heroin addict. He was the best auto body mechanic you could ever imagine. He could take totalled cars and make them look like they just came off the assembly line. He died after he started doing downers because of his son's death from drugs. I also have seen many functional drug addicts that appear okay on the outside but go home and beat their wife because of the mood swings and their inability to cope on the inside even though they appear to have it together.

I agree with ragga in that our bosses, friends, local grocery baggers, and sometimes even our pastors/priests do use drugs. there are a LOT of drug users that we're not aware of.

Sure enough but that doesn't mean they are not addicted. Heck pilots, lawyers, police, Judges go to work high. If they weren't addicted they would leave the high at home. They won't need it before they left for work... or even at work.

[J_9]

Wow, guess I'm loved after all. LOL, was studying heart attacks and thought I'd take a break and pop into AMHD and this is what I find. LOL

Addiction is a pathological state. Meaning your body requires it, or requires more to achieve the same effect as previously used.

Now, there are many forms of addiction... there is chemical addiction (usually a physical addiction)... this can include many of the drugs that have already been mentioned as well as some such as nicotine or caffeine.

Then there are addictions that are psychological addictions... gambling, marijuana (yes, it's psychological not physical), AMHD, etc.

An addict never, or rarely, admits addiction until he/she is ready to clean up.

There are dysfunctional addicts that have lost their jobs, homes, families. And there are functional addicts. Those that go to work every day, do their job, usually very well, and come home to drink to oblivion, or snort a few lines. Those are the addicts that their addiction does not affect their work, home, or family lives. Thus, they function being addicted. And, usually the family is part of the cycle... enablers if you will.

I, too, as a medical professional, will disagree with Ragga in that a tiny percentage of users become addicted. I have seen the consequences of medical misadventures (overdoses) first hand in the hospital.

Crack, heroine, meth, just to name a few are physically addictive from the very first use.

Ragga, have you ever witnessed an alcohol addict going through withdrawals? It's not a pretty site. Alcohol withdrawal is the most dangerous withdrawal of any drug, and you know what, it is a legal drug. The effects can be diaphoresis, dyspnea, hallucinations, palpitations, myocardial infarction, and even death.

I have seen heroine addicts who were once functional members of society one moment, then they shoot up and are slobbering vegetables for the rest of their lives the next minute. I have also seen some who have died after shooting up just once.

you can not die directly from and overdose of LSD.

I beg to differ. I "bagged" up a person just last week who had a CVA because of an overdose of LSD.

only a tiny tiny percentage of drug users develope an addiction.

This is a statement that shows ignorance of substance abuse plain and simple.

Ragga, I would like to know your experience with substance abuse and it's effects. I for one was an addict a long time ago (cannibis). Also I have recently worked in emergency rooms where overdoses have been brought in, labor and delivery wards where babies were delivered to drug addicted mothers, substance abuse treatment centers, and, finally, in state run mental institutions where many of the patients were previous drug addicts, but can no longer function in society due to the brain damage that has occurred due to their addiction.

So, Ragga, how much experience do you have?

[raggablue]

J_9, I can not take anything you say seriously when you make statements like this
"

Crack, heroine, meth, just to name a few are physically addictive from the very first use"

Because as a medical professional you should know that it is physiologically impossible for this to happen.

"I too, as a medical professional, will disagree with Ragga in that a tiny percentage of users become addicted."

You can't dissagree as a 'medical professional' because in that role you will only see people who have problems with drugs, the vast majoraty of drug users who don't have problems won't have need of your services.

". I have seen the consequences of medical misadventures (overdoses) first hand in the hospital."

I'm sure you have, but overdoses and addictions are completely different things. So it is irrelevant.

"This is a statement that shows ignorance of substance abuse plain and simple."

Urm, no it doesn't, all the evidence shows my statement to be true, perhaps you ought to do some more research. In the meantime this might help.
A word about Addiction-
Although in everyday language we use the word addiction to cover all sorts of compulsive behavior (where a person feels they can’t do without something), in drug terminology Addiction has a very specific meaning. It refers to a physical condition where the body has adapted through prolonged exposure to a drug and will suffer a particular set of physical reactions when the drug is stopped (withdrawal syndrome). Very few drugs are officially recognized as being Addictive in this way. Because of confusion about this definition, ‘Dependant’ or ‘Problematic use’ are now the preferred terms. These cover the psychological compulsion to keep using a drug and also take account of the subjective experience of being hooked i.e. someone feeling they are ‘addicted’ despite there being no ‘medical’ basis for the claim.

"So, Ragga, how much experience do you have?"

As well as personal experience, I have grown up around substance education workers and other experts in this field and with people who have been very open and honest about their own drug use. I'm not saying that drugs are harmless but it does more harm than good perpetuating false information and scaremongering as you are doing.

[N0help4u]

As well as personal experience, i have grown up around substance education workers and other experts in this field.

How much 'growing up' has that involved the past 3 years? 19 years? 40 years?

I would love to see all your proof that the 'many' you refer to are not addicted physically,
Psychologically or in any way, shape or form... until then I can't take anything YOU say seriously.

And just who are your substance education workers and other experts?
People pushing for the legalization? Rehabilitation counselors? The dealer?

[J_9]

Ragga, your post makes me laugh. Literally!! It is very apparent that you do not know what goes on with drugs and the chemical receptors in the brain.

I guess you really need to read up on drug abuse.

Beating an addiction to meth - February 2001: METH'S DEADLY BUZZ - MSNBC.com

Care to quote your sources Ragga? It is obvious those are not your words above. Specifically:

Although in everyday language we use the word addiction to cover all sorts of compulsive behavior (where a person feels they can't do without something), in drug terminology Addiction has a very specific meaning. It refers to a physical condition where the body has adapted through prolonged exposure to a drug and will suffer a particular set of physical reactions when the drug is stopped (withdrawal syndrome). Very few drugs are officially recognized as being Addictive in this way. Because of confusion about this definition, 'Dependant' or 'Problematic use' are now the preferred terms. These cover the psychological compulsion to keep using a drug and also take account of the subjective experience of being hooked i.e. someone feeling they are 'addicted' despite there being no 'medical' basis for the claim.

Please don't tell me this quote came from Wikipedia. I won't believe it if it does. Wiki is not a reliable source in the medical community. I need something more substantial.

I am not scaremongering, only speaking the truth from experience, clinical experience. Ragga, I have children older than you. I know what it's like to have the impression that you are always right, but in this case you are not.

I now have 6 years of medical educational background to back me up, add that to my experiences, as well as friend and familial experiences, that that equals more than you have been on this planet.

Overdoses can and do happen with addictions, are you actually denying that? How silly of you.

[ISneezeFunny]

Because as a medical professional you should know that it is physiologically impossible for this to happen.

As a student in the medical field... I must say, you CAN be addicted after the first time. Physiologically, it isn't very common, but it can/does happen. Dopaminergic receptors in the brain increase in numbers and down-regulate their performance thus requiring more of the substance the next use... it affects some more than others... this is addiction.

Ecstasy causes permanent damage even if you only use it once... not to mention, can cause death and brain damage its first time as well.

[raggablue]

J_9, why did you send me to that site, it doesn't contradict anything I said, I don't disagree with the report, and its MSN-how will that broaden my understanding?
Care to quote my sources? Certainly, the above addiction information came from an ISDD training manual-now part of Drugscope, it is the UKs leading independent centre of expertise on drugs. Their website is DrugScope | Welcome To Drugscope
Wikipedia... HA
So I see you have 6 years experience yet you still cannot spell HEROIN- there have been no recorded addictions to female heroes (heroine)

Overdoses can and do happen with addictions, are you actually denying that? How silly of you.

Absolutely not! You seemed to suggest that your experience with overdoses was directly linked with addiction. Clearly it is possible to be addicted without overdosing as it is to overdose without being addicted, that was my point.
To isneezefunny and NOhelp4u I think you should check the above site.

[J_9]

You don't need to PM them, link them here. Let me see how authentic they are.

[N0help4u]

Yeah and show us proof that the dopamine and serotonin and other neurotransmitters aren't effected.

I was trying not to get into all that but the more you ask for proof...

[N0help4u]

Care to quote your sources Ragga? It is obvious those are not your words above. Specifically: Please don't tell me this quote came from Wikipedia. I won't believe it if it does. Wiki is not a reliable source in the medical community. I need something more substantial. quote ragga:

Although in everyday language we use the word addiction to cover all sorts of compulsive behavior (where a person feels they can't do without something), in drug terminology Addiction has a very specific meaning. It refers to a physical condition where the body has adapted through prolonged exposure to a drug and will suffer a particular set of physical reactions when the drug is stopped (withdrawal syndrome). Very few drugs are officially recognized as being Addictive in this way. Because of confusion about this definition, 'Dependant' or 'Problematic use' are now the preferred terms. These cover the psychological compulsion to keep using a drug and also take account of the subjective experience of being hooked i.e. someone feeling they are 'addicted' despite there being no 'medical' basis for the claim.

Hmm me thinks he reads too much Garcia and Timothy Leary!

[J_9]

We have serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, all of these neurotransmitters are affected by drugs. Whether it be the first time, or years worth of use.

It's still my observation that Ragga has not sat in an OBS room at a rehab center with someone who is addicted and is withdrawaling. I have, and not only been afraid for their life, but my own. This is not the person who overdosed, but who went into treatment for addiction by their own choice.

[J_9]

Ragga, you are 15. You are merely 9 years older than my youngest son and 7 years younger than my oldest son. I still have 2 in between.

What you have seen in your lifetime may be insurmountable, but it does not speak from the experience that I, or others here old enough to be your parents, have learned through time and/or education.

[N0help4u]

Yeah wait until you fall in love with a girl that swears she isn't addicted and you will then only start to get a glimpse of addictions reality.
If drugs don't cause addiction why are drug related crimes so high?

Watch these videos
Video Library

- 3 Children Present as Pregnant Mother Murdered
- Child Found Dead in Duffle Bag
- Pastor Bill Wilson Shot
- Meet Victims of a Home Invasion
- A Family Tries to Survive After the Death of the Father

Tell me they are of functional families that aren't addicted.
I wish I could find the video of the little 7 year old girl that watched her mom OD
And the ones where they find the mothers dead and the infants left in the crib for days.

If drugs are not addicting why and how does it get this far?

[raggablue]

OK I can see it has gotten to this stage.
I have done my best to answer your questions and I have linked you to a reliable, respected source. My age appears to be the only argument you pose.
If you choose not to listen to me then I will leave you to patronise and ride upon your ego-trips all you want.
They do say ignorance is bliss, so you should all be perfectly happy.

[N0help4u]

LOL

This stage? What stage? We haven't even begun to pull out all the stops yet!
***A reliable respected source
That you can't even name.
***my age appears to be the only argument you pose.
While we can link you to a hundred reliable, respected sources for your every 0NE
How is all our sources -your age being 'the 0NLY argument we pose'. -What a cop out!
We have yet to see your links, your statistics that you claim you know so well

***if you choose not to listen to me then I will leave you to patronise and ride high on your egos.
LOL
If you choose not to listen to us then you are only leaving patronizing your 0WN self

We are happy because we do not live in bliss we are out there trying to help the addicts and the people they hurt.
Wait until it effects you personally with a loved one and then come back and tell us all about bliss.

***they do say ignorance is bliss, so you should all be perfectly happy.
Ignorance to drugs being harmless --If that is "ignorant bliss" I would rather BE there BUT I don't live in an Ivory tower shielded from reality. Right now I am surrounded in the hood with at least 30 neighbors that prove the reality of drugs.

I bet you call Britney Spears and other famous people "functional that do drugs but not addicted"... after all they are successful

Keith Ledger was NOT addicted and look what happened to him.

Gateway Rehabilitation Center

[J_9]

i have linked you to a reliable, respected source.

Guess I missed that.

[J_9]

they do say ignorance is bliss, so you should all be perfectly happy.

I was, back years before you were born and I was ignorant. Now I know better.

[ISneezeFunny]

Ragga, I believe J_9 was referring to your age because at 15, I'm not so sure they teach you about drugs and their effects on the body in depth. You have, at most, a high school education. Your knowledge of drugs and effects come from drug users, drug counselors, and at best (or worst), using them yourself.

J_9 and I have gone to school for a significant amount of time (J_9 more than I have) and have actual knowledge of how the brain receptors interact with specific drugs. I have personally worked in a research lab with rats and dopaminergic receptors in their brains and have seen the effects that drug take upon the chemicals of the brain.

Not only that, we have worked in the medical field and have seen COUNTLESS patients that come in with problems relating to drugs. I have seen more people in the morgue due to OD than I would like to admit.

If a 7 year old kid comes up to you and talks to you about algebra... wouldn't you question his knowledge? He probably doesn't know much about algebra than you do. That's the only reason we bring up the age factor. As far as your website, I did take a look at it. Nowhere does it say anything about not being addicted the first time. At best, it's another wikipedia for drugs... and not only that, it actually has a link to a site for 11 - 14 year olds that want to know more about drugs. This is not a reputable source. A reputable source would be a medical journal, a scientific journal, and things of that nature.