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patsfan73 · May 18, 2009, 09:16 PM

My neighbor clames that out fence is three feet onto his property and he plans to move it. The fence had been up for over thiry years. After a certain amount of time does the fence define the property line or will I need to have the property serveyed to settle this dispute?

nikosmom · May 18, 2009, 09:24 PM

The fence doesn't define the property line.

You will have to have a surveyor come out who can let you know exactly where your property ends and his begins. If your fence is on his property, he has a right to ask you to remove it, or do it himself.

AK lawyer · May 19, 2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by patsfan73

My neighbor clames that out fence is three feet onto his property and he plans to move it. The fence had been up for over thiry years. After a certain amount of time does the fence define the property line or will I need to have the property serveyed to settle this dispute?

Were you aware that the fence was "on his property" all these 30 years? If not, it looks to me that you may well have established ownership by "adverse possession". Which state are you in?

this8384 · May 19, 2009, 08:45 AM

As was already pointed out, your neighbor is probably throwing a fit because some states allow for adverse possession. He may have just learned about it and now wants the fence removed. On the other hand, he very well may be trying to trick you into surrendering part of your own land without knowing about it.

Go to the Register of Deeds in your county(I'm not positive they're the right people; if they're not, they can point you in the right direction) and ask them for a copy of the property division for your specific area. That will tell you exactly where the dividing line is; you can then determine if you're on his property or not.

ballengerb1 · May 19, 2009, 08:57 AM

If your state recognizes adverse possession the fence may indeed now be the dividing line between the properties. That is, if you have have done nothing to maintain the property on the other side of the fence or to display ownership. Two neighbors fighting over this issue could easily end up in a court room and I'd have an interesting question if that happens. Who owns the fence itself if the fence has become the property line? Who owns it, can maintain it or remove it? I would definitely start by checking your plate of survey to see if this guy isn't blowing hot air to start with.

AK lawyer · May 19, 2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by this8384

... ask them for a copy of the property division for your specific area. ...

I don't know what is meant by "property division", but in any case you won't know whether that document (or any document) corresponds to what's on the ground without hiring a surveyor. To answer your question directly, a survey may be redundant if in fact you have established title by adverse possession. But a judge may want one anyway, out of curiousity.

If you have occupied the disputed ground, exclusively, continuously, and as your own, for 30 years, I don't know of any state in which "adverse possession" won't be on your side. But to be sure, we need to know where you are.

this8384 · May 19, 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by AK lawyer

I don't know what is meant by "property division", but in any case you won't know whether that document (or any document) corresponds to what's on the ground without hiring a surveyer.

If you have occupied the disputed ground, exclusively, continuously, and as your own, for 30 years, I don't know of any state in which "adverse possession" won't be on your side. I asked for the state so that I could look for the text of the statute for you.

You don't know what "property division" means? :confused:

EDIT: And if you don't know what I'm referring to, how can you argue that the OP won't be able to understand the document?

ballengerb1 · May 19, 2009, 09:08 AM

AK, even I know what a division is, how about a subdivision? Ringing any bells?

AK lawyer · May 19, 2009, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

AK, even I know what a division is, how about a subdivision? Ringing any bells?

The word "division", by itself, has a number of meanings.

She could be referring to a subdivision plat. She could be referring to a post-plat survey. Or perhaps something else.

In any event, whether "the OP [will or will not] be able to understand the document", to reliably determine whether that document puts the disputed terrain on the OP's side or not, a surveyor will probably be necessary. And to have the best chance of protecting the OP's rights, a duly licensed attorney will be necessary.

ballengerb1 · May 19, 2009, 09:39 AM

I my neck of the woods the survey will show if there is an iron pipe at the property line and likely there will be one. If the survey shows the fence is on the OP's side no attorney, on the OP's side of the issue, would be needed. The OP could sit back and let the hot air blow from the neighbor. However, if the survy shows that the fence does cros the line and the OP wants to try to enforce adverse possess then an attorney would be a great idea. Say, anyone notice its just us here, where is patsfan on this?

AK lawyer · May 19, 2009, 09:46 AM

Now we're getting somewhere. Sure, if there is a monument in the ground placed by a surveyor, the question will be a lot easier to resolve. Where I come from, the monument is often an iron pipe (or piece of rebar, perhaps), with (hopefully) a brass cap afixed to the top inscribed with some data) Such a monument can often have been lost, however, and it's upon that contingency that I suggest a surveyor might be wanted.

Sure, if the monument shows the disputed terrain to be on the OP's side, the neighbor will have a very difficult time of it normally.

My guess is that the OP has other things to do than to monitor this thread all day long. :)

ballengerb1 · May 19, 2009, 10:02 AM

Agreed, I am the President of a HOA and we run into this kind of dispute all of the time. In 1969 when we became an independent community from the devoper survey monuments were almost non-existeant. As properties were bought and sold iron pipes were driven and boundries established. We are not immune to adverse pssession like a city or town so folks try to encroach from time to time.

ScottGem · May 19, 2009, 10:07 AM

OK, first lets play nice.

I tend to agree with AK here that a plat or survey map is not that easy for a layman to use to determine actually property lines. Unless there is some physical point of reference, a surveyor is needed.

One of the key questions here is who put up the fence and was it there when the current owner purchased the property.

I would consult an attorney and make sure that the neighbor does NOT move the fence until the real property line can be determined and whether adverse possession applies.

On Adverse Possession, there are often several criteria for a change in ownership to occur. So its not just a matter of the fact that the fence has existed for 30 years.

ballengerb1 · May 19, 2009, 10:11 AM

Honest Scott, I did not think we were doing anything but playing nice. Also a survey will clearly indicate if an iron pipe was found or driven so the OP would have something to look for. If a pipe is found you can then tell, without anyone's help, where the fence sits compared to the property line. The physical point of reference is generally the driven pipe.

this8384 · May 19, 2009, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Honest Scott, I did not think we were doing anything but playing nice. Also a survey will clearly indicate if an iron pipe was found or driven so the OP would have something to look for. If a pipe is found you can then tell, without anyone's help, where the fence sits compared to the property line. The physical point of reference is generally the driven pipe.

I wasn't trying to play mean. I was confused because AK said he didn't know what I was talking about but then commented on what I was talking about..

AK lawyer · May 19, 2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by this8384

I wasn't trying to play mean.

No offense taken. :cool: