Our family owns a lake property on a private lake, which is governed by an association. The land that my father purchased in 1991 is not now nor ever has been part of this association. Over the last few years that association has been creating new regulations on the lake that everyone is supposed to abide by but has never been forced to do so until this year. This year before being given our boat stickers, which show the patrol that we are property owners, we must sign an agreement. The agreement states that we must abide by all regulations, we are responsible for any of our guests behaviors, we must pay all fines against either us or our guests, and finally we must agree to allow the lake patrol the right to board and search our vessel whenever they deem it appropriate to maintain our boating "privileges." First of all, being that we are not part of the association, must we abide by any of these rules. Secondly, isn't there some kind of violation of rights involved here. I feel like this association is continually getting bolder in violating our rights every year.

Hundalei

Aaah everything is so different in the US. Yes a person can be held responsible if a guest leaves their party drunk, but only if that host purchased & served them the booze, and most of us have personal liability clauses in our home insurance that protect us. If your throwing a big party like a wedding you get extra insurance to cover your butt. What you do not do is sign an agreement with all your neighbours (notice the u) that if you or guest make any noise/drink/disturb any of them that you will pay them a fine!

Anyways It seems that Lisa hit the nail on the head that I have been trying to hit. As long as you own property that has lakefront, you have right to use the lake however you please, within the law. No one owns the water. You are not your brother's keeper.

Hundalei

To answer the question about who said that Security guards had more freedoms and less limitations than police.

ballengerb1

Did I miss it or have we never heard the answer to who owns the lake? I've read a lot of this discussion and everyone is entitled to his opinion but a HOA has way more authority than Hundalei thinks and it doesn't matter what country. I think Scott pointed out early on how a developer buys property, dams up a steam and creates covenants. Those covenants are laws and they are approved by the local or state government. My association has their own building code and enforcement department above and beyond the county building department. We have the right and legal authoority to approve ot deny builing permits and plans. Judy pointed out its pretty much like a condo board, they have legal control over many of the things folks are calling personal freedom or rights. You chose to join in or not but once you are in a HOA you have given up some freedoms.

Hundalei

Well sorry but that is not my experience. On this side of the border the township (municipal government- which is elected!) sets the rules on building, when where and how, they set the bylaws, and the police patrol the lakes not security guards. If it were any other way I would leave. There are lakes throughout the province that have been specifically dedicated by the townships as boat free lakes, power free lakes (everyone on solar power) etc. The key though is that those rules for those lakes are set in place by government, for government owned lakes. Anyone looking for that lifestyle can go to the township find out about one of these "green" lakes and buy the property from the government. It is not an HOA or POA setting these rules. It is the government.

Ballengerb1 - You are talking about developers and developments and the rules that they set. Also about condo boards where hundreds of people can be sharing a building. Not rules for privately owned properties with individual's owning individual building's.

Also no I do not believe we have heard who actually owns the lake.

ballengerb1

Until we know who owns the lake it is impossible to determine a final answer, so thanks for clearing that up. I own lake property and sit as a member of the HOA so I have years of direct experience. The HOA is very simular to an incorporated city, and like cities they can make laws, hire security and levy fines. I think you may not fully see the authority of a HOA or city, they can make rules for private property. If you live in a city I think your city government has established rules regarding your private property such as zoning nad building code, is this not true for you?

Hundalei

I do live in a city, and our elected government officials make our rules. I cottage in Muskoka and also have years of direct experience. 25 years of my own. My mother has been Membership chairman and Treasurer for 40 years, my father has been president for 20 years out of the past 40. My grandfather was president for as many years in his day, and my great grandfather started the association. I hope that outlines my POA experience enough for people to understand that what I am saying is what happens up here.

The HOA's & POA's here can only provide guidelines. Generally a lake association is to help with environmental stewardship programs, keeping the lakes clean, water testing, educating the members about pollution and environmental health of the lake, providing info on safe boating & swimming and organizing community events for everyone to come & enjoy & get to know each other. They cannot turn their guidelines into law especially regarding boating, building, or conduct of guests. Those laws are set in place and enforced by the government and police. Are your POA's for profit organizations??? Everyone's referring to them as a legal entity when I am used to them being a group of volunteers.

I'm of the opinion that all POA's should spend a lot more time on the environmentnd and let the cops deal with the rowdies & improper boat users.

ballengerb1

I agree with your last sentence 100% and that's why I ran for board position. I wish Judy would come back and explain things from a lawyer's point. I know this will sound argumentative but it is not, HOA can make guidelines if they want but they have legal authority to create rules, regulations and laws for the common properties as well as private properties. You live in a city and the lected officials make rules and laws,how is this not exactly like a HOA. We are elected officials and we make laws. I agree we should do more environmental regulating but we are finding that people who pollute the lake don't follow rules.

Hundalei

I guess how a city is different from an HOA up here is that the HOA are volunteers, not for profit, not incorporated, not paid, etc. Also the HOA does not provide services like a city would - water, sewage, power, garbage pickup, mail delivery property taxes etc. This is where I see the difference. HOA should be there to help guide the homeowner's to a healthy happy life on the lake. The lake is already in a township with a government and police that have set rules. Why exactly is another one needed to do the same thing? Lobby the government and have the laws changed, why does the association need to take their place as the "enforcers".

ScottGem

First, When I said the police have limitations, I was referring to manpower limitations. The police, all over the world, are less concerned with preventing crime then with punishing law breakers. Its just a fact of life in a non police state. Private security guards in private development are just the opposite. They are more concerned with preventing problems then catching criminals.

The point you seemingly fail to grasp here is that an HOA or a POA is, in effect, a government. They have elected officials, they have a "constitution", they have rules that govern the use of the property they oversee. Unless they abuse the power they have, I don't see why you are so adamantly oppossed to them. I'm not a big fan of them, myself. But having spent many years in a Co-op complex where my mother spent time on the Board of Directors I am familiar with both the good and bad. The fact of the matter is that HOAs/POAs do serve a purpose. Sometimes that purpose is greatly needed.

I wonder how much experience you have with HOAs/POAs, because I can't imagine they would be as hamstrung as you claim. As ballenger said, at least in the US, they can have the power of a small local govt. While most board members are volunteers, the HOA may provide a number of services like water/sewer, grounds maintenance, road paving, power, garbage pickup and more.

As to WHY they need to exist, is because the town can't provide the level of services they want. It may be cheaper and most likely faster for a HOA to fix its own potholes then depend on the town. In a large development, a water/sewer district may have been created. During the big blackout in NYC back in the 60s, my Co-op had power because we had our own generating plant. So, the HOA provides a level of service, especially in a luxury community, that residents are willing to pay for.

Erbusch

Lisa that was a good post. That was what we have been told before by attorneys and always believed as well about the water not being owned by anyone. However, I myself contacted the Department of Natural Resources(DNR) where I live to find out whose water it was and who governed it. They answered my by saying that it is a private lake, owned by the association, and that they govern it. However, at a sports show that we have gone to another DNR official told us that very same thing that you posted. That the water is owned by the state. The land beneath may be owned but the water is owned by the state. As far a driving to the land we own the roads were just county roads, however this last year the association gathered money to have the roads made nicer with chip and seal to stop the dust. I dont know how or why they would do that if they didnt own the roads. I think they got us there.