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    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #1

    Aug 30, 2007, 03:58 PM
    Well, what now? Is this any surprise to you?
    “Iraq has failed to meet all but three of 18 congressionally mandated benchmarks for political and military progress, according to a draft of a Government Accountability Office report.

    “The person who provided the draft report to The Post said it was being conveyed from a government official who feared that its pessimistic conclusions would be watered down in the final version -- as some officials have said happened with security judgments in this month's National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq.

    “The GAO draft also says that the number of Iraqi army units capable of operating independently declined from 10 in March to six last month. The July White House report mentioned a "slight" decline in capable Iraqi units, without providing any numbers.”

    The government official in question appears to distrust the Administration, I wonder why?



    washingtonpost.com
    BABRAM's Avatar
    BABRAM Posts: 561, Reputation: 145
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    #2

    Aug 30, 2007, 06:34 PM
    I read the article. OK. I'll take the high road and say both views are exaggerated. Still that's not good news. Unfortunately we could split the difference between the GAO report and what the White House would have us to believe and still be in Iraq 10-20 years from now.



    Bobby
    ordinaryguy's Avatar
    ordinaryguy Posts: 1,790, Reputation: 596
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    #3

    Aug 30, 2007, 06:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    “The person who provided the draft report to The Post said it was being conveyed from a government official who feared that its pessimistic conclusions would be watered down in the final version -- as some officials have said happened with security judgments in this month's National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq.
    And as happened with the Election Assistance Commission report. Nothing this Administration does or says surprises me anymore. Inconvenient facts are suppressed if possible, dismissed as falsehoods if not. It has not a shred of integrity or legitimacy left, IMO.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #4

    Aug 30, 2007, 07:12 PM
    And what facts are there are twisted to look worst to make them look worst.

    There is no good news in war, except that most that go over and see what is going on, believe we are making some headway.
    To the others, who want to loose, nothing but a total loss will be good enough
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #5

    Aug 31, 2007, 04:42 AM
    With all due respect to the GAO ;I prefer to wait to see the Petraeus/Crocker report in about 2 weeks.

    What this reports to is phony "benchmarks" that Congress concocted which I think is in fact insulting to the Iraqis . Ambassador Crocker has served under 7 US Administrations in countries throughout the Middle East . He interviewed with John Burns of the NY Slimes in July . He is convinced that these phony benchmarks are meaningless measures in gaging progress in the country .

    You could not achieve any of them, and still have a situation where arguably the country is moving in the right direction. And conversely, I think you could achieve them all and still not be heading towards stability, security and overall success in Iraq.”
    U.S. Envoy Offers Grim Prediction on Iraq Pullout - New York Times

    In my view all these phony benchmarks do is shift the blame and culpability from al-qaeda ,and Iran's stooges to the government ;a government that is admittedly struggling, but still has made tremedous strides,despite the many obsticles , towards forging a nation out of the ruin of the Saddam gulag.

    US troops have had some success in winning the confidence of members of
    The community by pushing out into previously unexplored neighbourhoods
    As part of President Bush's surge plan. However, many Iraqis refuse to
    Believe that the American presence will stay for very long. These
    People
    Remain fearful of offering up tips on where they know insurgents have
    Placed roadside bombs because they fear being killed once the US troops
    Leave. 'I cannot help the coalition because I worry that the soldiers
    Will leave and the terrorists will come back to kill me,' said Mokdat
    Ahmed Shahib, a 40-year-old security guard in the village.
    Inside Iraq Blog - Times Online - WBLG: Will this little Iraqi girl lose her sight?

    The Democrats talk a big game about winning hearts and minds but they
    Have no clue what that means . Shahib would not have those fears except
    For what he hears from American domestic politics... and that in turn
    Needlessly risks the lives of our troops.

    Yes ,success ultimately depends on a political solution... (duh) .To argue that there is no correlation between military success and political is absurd and dishonest . Mookie al-Sadr would not have suspended militia activities if he wasn't getting the snot knocked out of him and feeling the political pressure from the Maliki government .

    Radical Iraqi Shi'ite Cleric Orders Militia to Halt Activities

    The Mahdi Army is splintered because Petraeus’ orders to confront them rather than avoid them, and Sadr’s abdication by fleeing to Iran when things got hot.

    Now extend this to the Iraqi government . These politicians go to work every day at a risk to their lives. Assassination could be the result of them boldly making the political compromises needed. The more insistent Congress becomes about troop withdrawals, the more unlikely political reconciliation in Iraq becomes. But I'm sure the Democrats have taken that into their political calculations since they appear to be invested heavily in defeat.

    I would also note that the GAO report was finalized in July . Since then there has been some significant progress towards" reconciliation ".
    Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki appeared on Iraqi television with leaders of Iraq's major Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish political parties Aug. 26 to announce agreement on several contentious issues. The agreements include a reduction of restrictions on former Baath party members on joining the military and civil service, the release of detainees held without charge, a plan to hold provincial elections and endorsement of the draft oil law.
    http://www.stratfor.com/products/pre...ep=1&id=294529

    Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe notes that the political accord is a “breakthrough” of such magnitude that congressional Democrats may now be in trouble next November.

    Good news, but not for Democrats - The Boston Globe

    I think he has summed it up nicely .
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #6

    Aug 31, 2007, 06:42 AM
    Another leak of government information to the press. You're right, I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that we aren't hearing any calls for an investigation into this leak. After all, it agrees with the liberal agenda.

    OK, the Iraqi government hasn't met 15 of its benchmarks. So what? How does that affect anything with regard to fighting terrorists in Iraq? How does it affect the tactical, strategic military equation in Iraq? It isn't a reason for us to leave Iraq. If anything, it's a reason for us to stay in Iraq in order to fill the power vacuum that Iran has now publicly stated it would fill if we leave.

    This is exactly why I have been saying that the military effort should not have a basis in "benchmarks", "timetables" or anything else except the destruction of the enemy's ability to fight us or the citizens of Iraq. We should leave when the enemy cannot fight anymore, and not one moment sooner. That has been my stance from the beginning.

    Elliot
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #7

    Aug 31, 2007, 09:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    And what facts are there are twisted to look worst to make them look worst.

    There is no good news in war, except that most that go over and see what is going on, beleive we are making some headway.
    To the others, who want to loose, nothing but a total loss will be good enough
    It seems that any report, having to do with government, is “spun”, whoever the author might be.
    ordinaryguy's Avatar
    ordinaryguy Posts: 1,790, Reputation: 596
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    #8

    Aug 31, 2007, 09:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    And as happened with the Election Assistance Commission report. Nothing this Administration does or says surprises me anymore. Inconvenient facts are suppressed if possible, dismissed as falsehoods if not. It has not a shred of integrity or legitimacy left, IMO.
    And as happened to the HHS campaign to encourage breastfeeding. HHS Toned Down Breast-Feeding Ads
    And the list goes on...
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #9

    Aug 31, 2007, 10:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55
    With all due respect to the GAO ;I prefer to wait to see the Petraeus/Crocker report in about 2 weeks.

    What this reports to is phony "benchmarks" that Congress concocted which I think is in fact insulting to the Iraqis . Ambassador Crocker has served under 7 US Administrations in countries throughout the Middle East . He interviewed with John Burns of the NY Slimes in July . He is convinced that these phony benchmarks are meaningless measures in gaging progress in the country .



    U.S. Envoy Offers Grim Prediction on Iraq Pullout - New York Times

    In my view all these phony benchmarks do is shift the blame and culpability from al-qaeda ,and Iran's stooges to the government ;a government that is admittedly struggling, but still has made tremedous strides,despite the many obsticles , towards forging a nation out of the ruin of the Saddam gulag.



    Inside Iraq Blog - Times Online - WBLG: Will this little Iraqi girl lose her sight?

    The Democrats talk a big game about winning hearts and minds but they
    have no clue what that means . Shahib would not have those fears except
    for what he hears from American domestic politics.....and that in turn
    needlessly risks the lives of our troops.

    Yes ,success ultimately depends on a political solution...(duh) .To argue that there is no correlation between military success and political is absurd and dishonest . Mookie al-Sadr would not have suspended militia activities if he wasn't getting the snot knocked out of him and feeling the political pressure from the Maliki government .

    Radical Iraqi Shi'ite Cleric Orders Militia to Halt Activities

    The Mahdi Army is splintered because Petraeus’ orders to confront them rather than avoid them, and Sadr’s abdication by fleeing to Iran when things got hot.

    Now extend this to the Iraqi governement . These politicians go to work every day at a risk to their lives. Assassination could be the result of them boldly making the political compromises needed. The more insistent Congress becomes about troop withdrawals, the more unlikely political reconciliation in Iraq becomes. But I'm sure the Democrats have taken that into their political calculations since they appear to be invested heavily in defeat.

    I would also note that the GAO report was finalized in July . Since then there has been some significant progress towards" reconciliation ".
    http://www.stratfor.com/products/pre...ep=1&id=294529

    Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe notes that the political accord is a “breakthrough” of such magnitude that congressional Democrats may now be in trouble next November.

    Good news, but not for Democrats - The Boston Globe

    I think he has summed it up nicely .
    Nice retort Tom, let’s see if I have it right.

    We should take John Burns word for it that Congress is wrong, and he is right.

    In your view Congress is wrong, and you know this because the Iraqi people have made tremendous strides, despite the many obstacles.


    In my view Americans’ are not fighting a war over there, the war was over long ago; Americans’ are playing referees between a bunch of religious fanatics and the only outcome for then is Fascism. Fascism ruled before, and will again. That is the only form of government that can exist in that environment. :)
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #10

    Aug 31, 2007, 10:23 AM
    No not John Burns but perhaps Ambassador Crocker and General Petraeus deserves some consideration before we cash in our chips.After all the General was sent their by unanimous consent of Congress.

    Why is it bad for us to referee the so called civil war in Iraq but OK for us to still be managing the fall out of the fall of Yugoslavia ? We are still there . From a national security perspective it makes much more sense for us to be in Iraq. Why are US troops still on the front line of the Korean peninsula keeping their civil war in check ?

    I don't presume that the only outcome for the Arab world is jackbooted dictators . Muslim majority democracies are viable in other parts of the world . Why not there ?
    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #11

    Aug 31, 2007, 10:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    Another leak of government information to the press. You're right, I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that we aren't hearing any calls for an investigation into this leak. After all, it agrees with the liberal agenda.

    OK, the Iraqi government hasn't met 15 of its benchmarks. So what? How does that affect anything with regard to fighting terrorists in Iraq? How does it affect the tactical, strategic military equation in Iraq? It isn't a reason for us to leave Iraq. If anything, its a reason for us to stay in Iraq in order to fill the power vacuum that Iran has now publicly stated it would fill if we leave.

    This is exactly why I have been saying that the military effort should not have a basis in "benchmarks", "timetables" or anything else except the destruction of the enemy's ability to fight us or the citizens of Iraq. We should leave when the enemy cannot fight anymore, and not one moment sooner. That has been my stance from the beginning.

    Elliot
    Yep, another leak…where's the plumber when we need one.

    And here I thought the army needed goals… let's see, where have I heard that before…Oh! Yes:

    "Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a- Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"
    - General George S. Patton, Jr


    Patton had goals and being a referee was not one of them, nor should it be the army's now..
    Chery's Avatar
    Chery Posts: 3,666, Reputation: 698
    Gone, But Not Forgotten
     
    #12

    Aug 31, 2007, 10:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    Another leak of government information to the press. You're right, I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that we aren't hearing any calls for an investigation into this leak. After all, it agrees with the liberal agenda.

    OK, the Iraqi government hasn't met 15 of its benchmarks. So what? How does that affect anything with regard to fighting terrorists in Iraq? How does it affect the tactical, strategic military equation in Iraq? It isn't a reason for us to leave Iraq. If anything, its a reason for us to stay in Iraq in order to fill the power vacuum that Iran has now publicly stated it would fill if we leave.

    This is exactly why I have been saying that the military effort should not have a basis in "benchmarks", "timetables" or anything else except the destruction of the enemy's ability to fight us or the citizens of Iraq. We should leave when the enemy cannot fight anymore, and not one moment sooner. That has been my stance from the beginning.

    Elliot
    It is my opinion that they will continue to fight among themselves just to keep foreign troops (U.K. US, etc) from pulling out altogether because their goal is to kill all the 'infidels'. Unfortunately, fanaticism is ruling this part of the world.

    Just think, if they all agreed and troops left, they would have to spread out and fight the 'infidels' on other territories. So the motto is: Hey, let's keep the 'enemy' in the back yard.. it's easier to pick them off. And if that's not all, the dumb 'infidels' are now fighting/debating against each other. Gee, what was that again, oh yeah, Divide and/or Scare/Conquer.. I see how much fun they are having with the Koreans and Italians..

    Sorry, but war sucks and makes me angry. One of my brothers is a civilian aircraft mechanic in Afghanistan right now.

    Dark_crow's Avatar
    Dark_crow Posts: 1,405, Reputation: 196
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    #13

    Aug 31, 2007, 11:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55
    no not John Burns but perhaps Ambassador Crocker and General Petraeus deserves some consideration before we cash in our chips.After all the General was sent their by unanimous consent of Congress.

    Why is it bad for us to referee the so called civil war in Iraq but ok for us to still be managing the fall out of the fall of Yugoslavia ? We are still there . From a national security perspective it makes much more sense for us to be in Iraq. Why are US troops still on the front line of the Korean peninsula keeping their civil war in check ?

    I don't presume that the only outcome for the Arab world is jackbooted dictators . Muslim majority democracies are viable in other parts of the world . Why not there ?
    Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not for a pull-out, we are there, and it would be an act of betrayal to leave now.

    I think it was a mistake to go there and I think it a mistake to have troops anywhere else in the world except on military installations. I think you know by now that I believe it is pragmatically a mistake to intervene in the workings of another nation. That was the reason for 9/11, the Cole, and other strikes against the U.S. property.
    ETWolverine's Avatar
    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #14

    Sep 4, 2007, 06:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_crow
    Patton had goals and being a referee was not one of them, nor should it be the army’s now..
    Different war. Different conditions. Different targets. Different goals. But the military goals are there and being met.

    And if you want to use Patton as an example, Patton would certainly not have called for a pullout from Iraq, nor would he have claimed that we were "losing" the war and have "failed" in our mission. He would have called for Congress to get their thumbs out of their collective butts, get behind the war effort, and get the misson done so that we could go home. Which is EXACTLY what Bush, Patreus, et. Al have been calling for.

    Elliot

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