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Lt. Gen Douglas Lute, President Bush's new military adviser, said yesterday that because of frequent tours of duty for US soldiers in Iraq and Afghan, it is worth considering a return to the military draft.
I saw some stats within the week that stated that a majority of soldiers in Iraq have been there *since the beginning* of the war and occupation.
How do you feel a military draft would play with American citizens? How would it effect the election of 11-08 other than completely destroying the Republican Party? Would the White House, with Bush in it, be burned to the ground by disgusted citizens?
I don't think Bush would sign on for a return to the military draft which was discontinued in 1973.
I think the Republicans are hoping a Democrat takes over the White House in 1-2009 so Republicans can blame the Democrats for losing the Iraq War which Bush lost by mismanagement, thereby saving the Republican Party.
I knew this posting would devolve into a typical rant with the predictable talking points . Whether I think compusory service is a good idea or not is irrelevent ,the military has repeatedly said they want no part of it.
It is clear from reading the left wing blogs that those in favor of a draft use the Charlie Rangel logic ;that a conscription would galvinize the opposition to the war and take it to the street ;just like what happened during Vietnam.You will note that the demonstations to the Vietnam war tailed off considerably after Nixon ended the draft . Alowing conscription against their will,just to increase opposition,is reprehensible under any standard of ethics.
Reagan had a standing volunteer Army of 16 combat divisions. Today our Army has about 10 combat divisions. Our population is much larger than during Reagan’s admin, thus increasing our volunteer Army to the Reagan level should not be a problem with volunteers and would take care of the concerns of those who think the military is stressed.
I don't like a volunteer army. I like a representative army. That way they'll never turn on us.
Most of the volunteers today are red necked young southerners who think George Bush is great. But, they're running out of them, so they're taking gang members, skin heads and white supremacists. Is it no wonder that Abhu Graib and the fragging of Tillman happened? Not to me.
Nope, I want an army, that if told to fire on the American people, would instead turn their guns around. THIS army wouldn't do that.
A few months old news here. An addendum to the original issue...
Bush resists Democrats on military pay
White House says 3.5% hike is too costly
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | May 19, 2007
WASHINGTON -- The White House is trying to kill a Democratic plan to increase the size of a military pay raise next year, contending it would be too costly and that members of the armed forces are already sufficiently compensated.
In a letter from the White House Office of Management and Budget to congressional committees overseeing the military, OMB director Rob Portman said Wednesday that the administration "strongly opposes" a Democratic plan to bump up military salaries by 3.5 percent instead of Bush's request for a 3 percent jump.
"The cost of increasing the FY 2008 military pay raise by an additional 0.5 percent is $265 million in FY 2008 and $7.3 billion" if similar raises are enacted over the next five years, Portman's office said in a six-page memo outlining concerns about the defense spending bill that was approved by the House early Friday and will be taken up by the Senate this week.
The 3 percent raise proposed by Bush is equal to the increase in the Employment Cost Index estimated by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. New recruits currently make a base salary of $15,617 but are eligible for various bonuses and receive extensive benefits.
Top Democratic leaders vowed to continue their efforts to enact a larger raise, arguing that members of the armed forces and their families deserve annual pay raises higher than the private sector due to the dangers of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The plan to hike military salaries is part of a larger effort by the Democratic Party to demonstrate its support of troops as it moves to place restrictions on funding for the Iraq war.
House leaders are particularly anxious to dispel the notion that Democrats are unsupportive of the military.
Congress often adds money to the annual White House spending request for military programs. Yet the newly elected Congress, which is controlled by Democrats, has placed more emphasis on increasing funding for military personnel than for weapons programs such as missile defense systems, according to MacKenzie Eaglen , a national security specialist at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative-leaning public policy think tank.
"This bill [passed by the House] promotes the softer spending -- such as healthcare, compensation, and readiness -- rather than equipment and weapons," she said.
She said she worries, like the White House, that too much spending on compensation and other personnel costs could unduly drain funding from vital weapons systems.
Democrats, however, think the higher salaries are justified.
In a letter circulated to Senate colleagues yesterday urging their support for the higher pay raise, Senator John F. Kerry , Democrat of Massachusetts, chided the Bush administration for opposing the measure even as it lobbies Congress to extend tax cuts for some of the wealthiest Americans.
In a separate letter to Bush yesterday, Kerry said he was "extremely disappointed" by the White House position on the pay raise, saying it stands "in direct contrast to the will of the American people who support all the efforts to support our troops."
Kerry previously coauthored the Military Family Bill of Rights, which is now law, that increased the death benefit for surviving spouses and family members of troops killed in action to $250,000. The Kerry legislation also extended the amount of time survivors can remain in military housing after their loved one is killed to a full year.
Kerry's new call for greater military pay was echoed by a group of Iraq veterans yesterday.
"The pay raise in the bill is equivalent to approximately $6 a month in troop pay-raise increases," VoteVets.org, a Democrat-leaning military advocacy group said in a statement.
The group's spokesman, John Bruhns , an Iraq veteran, said that "for President Bush to begrudge our troops a pay raise of [one-half] percentage point is outrageous, appalling, and just unacceptable."
He said more financial compensation is especially needed at a time when Army deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan have been extended from 12 months to 15 months.
The veterans group also urged the White House to support another provision in the House bill that would provide an additional $40 a month for family members of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The House defense bill authorized $644 billion for the Department of Defense for the year beginning Oct. 1, including $142 billion to pay for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"The bill provides our troops with more than the Bush administration requested, including a pay raise more in keeping with what they deserve," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in a statement yesterday.
I am a petty officer third class of the US Navy. Most of you agree that there should be a draft or manditory military service after high school. I disagree because I can almost guarantee that most of you have never served. It would cause more problems then it is worth because they would just go AWOL or UA. Military service is not for everyone including me and its took over 4 yrs of seeing people killed and missing my kids grow up to relize that.
I am a petty officer third class of the US Navy. Most of you agree that there should be a draft or manditory military service after high school. I disagree because I can almost guarantee that most of you have never served. It would cause more problems then it is worth because they would just go AWOL or UA. Military service is not for everyone including me and its took over 4 yrs of seeing people killed and missing my kids grow up to relize that.
AWOL's? Many of them would never even show up to boot camp. The gang bangers and lazy useless dregs of society would go into hiding. I served in the military and I think you'll find others participating in this post that did as well. I'm also one that likes the idea of a two year (perhaps shorter) mandatory service...although my reasoning is separate from the original issue of the post. Those that choose could make a career out of it and by the end of two years they should have a good idea, one way or the other.
OK I don't think the military is for everyone either. For some it would take away from their precious gang activity. Then others would prefer sitting the fat arses on the couch eating potato chips and dreaming of a welfare check. And you know how some young people think they know it all and could never take orders from their superiors. Hell they didn't like their parents or their teachers and they darn sure are not going to like the drill instructors.
Listen some twenty odd years ago I decided not to make a career of the military. Looking back I still appreciate the discipline I experienced because it made me a better man. I got out and didn't re-up. Actually I went into college then Broadcasting School, which I never used. I ended up in Vegas and currently work the credit angle. But anyway, my brother chose to continue. He lacks about three and half years until full retirement.
I know what you mean about missing your kids. That is what hurts my brother the most. He misses his two darling young daughters. War sucks no matter how you look at it. In fact many of our politicians suck no matter how you vote. My family managed through Vietnam and that sucked. I have family that came back and was never the same. Now we are going through the Iraqi war praying for my brother daily. But in and through it all, I still love many aspects of American life.
Sorry to break that bubble, but college ROTC and was in at the last years that covered VietNam but by then we were again only using advisors.
Did many years in the reserve and then went into the Justice Dept.
And manditory government service can also include peace corp, perhaps forest service and many other areas of public service.
But as noted the discipline of a boot camp could really change alot of lives.
One of my older sons did a tour in Afgan, one in Iraq at the invasion, and one in desert storm.
So most likely the ones of us that think the draft is a good idea was in the old draft, or in the military.
But I also think that a government work program instead of welfare should be in place also.
Of course with conscription there would be no compulsion or incentive at all to increase the pay or the bonuses of the military at all .
I'm sure there is alot more to this story than was reported Bobby. For one thing ;the adm. proposed a 3% hike with an increased benefits package as well ;so the dispute is really over a half a percentage point. Why doesn't Congress voluntarily suspend their own pay raises that they vote for themselves and transfer it to the military to cover the 0.5% difference ?
Sorry ,this sounds like a pr stunt to me by Reid et al .
The story concerning a pay raise is what it is. Probably was some bargaining element involved that one side wanted and the other wouldn't give in. Albeit with disregard to our soldiers, which doesn't surprise me. To many political biased minded people that can't see past their own noses because of dedicated party affiliation. But it reads fairly clear who didn't want to give the extra. Also Fr_Chuck is right on. You missed his point which was so much more and I identified some of that in my previous reply. I'm on my way out the the door for work so I can pay Uncle Sam some more taxes. Everyone have a great day.
I don't like a volunteer army. I like a representative army. That way they'll never turn on us.
Really? Like the "representative armies" that have overthrown just about every government in existence prior to the 20th century?
What are you talking about?
Quote:
Most of the volunteers today are red necked young southerners who think George Bush is great. But, they're running out of them, so they're taking gang members, skin heads and white supremacists. Is it no wonder that Abhu Graib and the fragging of Tillman happened? Not to me.
#1: Tillman wasn't fragged. He was hit by friendly fire. Fragging is when a lower-ranking soldier DELIBERATELY kills an officer in revenge for some real or imagined offense. That does not fit the case of Tillman, who was hit by friendly fire during combat.
#2: Where are you getting your information about demographics of recruitment? Turns out that, when you look at the actual demographics of new recruits to the military, they almost exactly match the demographics of the general population in all aspects, including, race, faith, economic factors, state of origin, education level, political affiliation, etc. They are neither "mostly red necked young hicks" nor "southerners". They are, in fact, representative of the general population.
Quote:
Nope, I want an army, that if told to fire on the American people, would instead turn their guns around. THIS army wouldn't do that.
excon
Rather than attempting to create a military that "wouldn't fire on Americans" by making it "representative of the population", I instead support arming the American people to be able to resist an army that would fire against the people. The defense against the military being used as a tool of oppression by our government is the 2nd Amendment, not an attempt to make the military "representative of the people".
All that a "representative military" does is water down the effectiveness of the millitary and make the soldiers apathetic to the causes that they are fighting for. It ruins moral to have people there who don't really want to be there. That was one of the lessons we should have learned from Vietnam... but some of us clearly didn't.
Yes, of course, I learned it from you and the RIGHT WING NOISE MACHINE PROPAGANSISTS represented here by ....Tomder55, speachlessTex, kinji and Chuck.
But, you guys have to know that ENDLESS WAR requires ENDLESS SOLDIERS unless you are going to have the same old soldiers serve for five, ten, twenty years!!!
THAT WAS THE POINT.
NOISE? What exactly do you call this unwarranted personal attack, thoughtful discussion?
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