The Republican campaign

tomder55 · Dec 20, 2007, 06:00 AM

OG you really think interest rates are too high? There are others here who argue that the lowering of the rates that the FED has done is inflationary . Also ,high rates we had in the 1970s . I do not think the interest rates today are high at all.

speechlesstx · Dec 20, 2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

And my New Year's wish is that all the Republicans continue to grovel and pander to the self-anointed prophets of the Religious Right, oblivious to the broad electorate's hunger for competent, non-ideological governance. They need to spend some time in the wilderness searching their souls and regaining their integrity.

I lamented this holy war in the campaign myself. Of course I recall distinctly how Democrats played their own faith cards in the last election - as well as their current presidential candidates "trying to overcome this so-called "God Gap." And wasn't it convenient that "Clinton's childhood Sunday school teacher" back in Park Ridge, Ill. happened to be in the audience in Donnellson, Iowa the other day?

ETWolverine · Dec 20, 2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tom:

I contend the tax cuts made the rich a whole lot richer. In fact, they made MORE than the poor LOST. Indeed. They got SOOOOOO much richer that their additional wealth skewed the numbers so that it only APPEARS that we're in an expansion. Ok, let me rephrase that. The expansion that's occurring, if there is one, is being shared by only a very few individuals.

Those wealthy people made their money off someone's back. Given the tax cut they got, I think I know who.

The middle class is getting poorer by the minute. Jobs are going overseas; food is going through the roof. They can't afford to put gas in their cars, and of course, the job they had building cars has turned into a job selling TVs for Wal-Mart.

I know you don't think deficits matter. So, you just ignore them. You know that Republicans have been spending YOUR money like drunken sailors. But, you evidently think there's no piper to pay for all that fiscal irresponsibility. I don't know why. That's why you can say we're expanding, and say it with a straight face.

excon

excon,

What is your evidence for the statement that the middle-class and lower class are getting poorer while the rich get richer?

To the contrary, there is ample statistical evidence that while the rich are indeed getting richer, the poor and middle classes are also getting richer. The gap in the distribution of wealth is getting smaller, not larger. All you need to do is look at census data, including salaries, benefits packages, labor costs, etc. The information is available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau websites. It shows that the disparity in salaries is DECREASING, not increasing. And it shows that the disparity is decreasing, not because the high salaries are getting lower, but because the low salaries are getting higher. I have posted these statistics a number of times in the past, and I don't really have time to do it again right now. But the infomation is there if you want to see it.

Sorry, I don't buy your argument. It lacks evidence.

Elliot

ordinaryguy · Dec 20, 2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

OG you really think interest rates are too high? There are others here who argue that the lowering of the rates that the FED has done is inflationary . Also ,high rates we had in the 1970s . I do not think the interest rates today are high at all.

You keep trying to change the subject.

It's not about the current level of interest rates.
It's not about whether the economy is currently expanding or contracting.
It's not about whether Government revenues have increased in the last several years.
It's not about the current level of government spending.
It's not about the allocation of government spending between competing needs and priorities.

These are all interesting and important topics, but they are not the subject I'm addressing.

The topic I'm addressing is responsible government budgeting. That means the Government should not spend GROSSLY more than it receives in revenue, for many years at a time. When it does so, it causes interest rates to be higher THAN THEY OTHERWISE WOULD BE, and credit to be less available for private-sector investment THAN IT OTHERWISE WOULD BE. It also seriously compromises the ability of future governments to meet the needs of the nation.

Of course it's true that even WITH a balanced budget, the Government could still spend either too much (providing too many low-value services) or too little (failing to provide critically needed high-value services). It's also true that even with a balanced budget, the Fed could set interest rates too high (causing a recession) or too low (causing inflation). But at least there wouldn't be the necessity for massive government borrowing that distorts both credit markets and product markets in fundamental ways.

And for what it's worth, even though it's off-topic, I agree with you that the Fed's recent panicky efforts to inject money into the system are probably inflationary, I.e., current interest rates are too low.

ordinaryguy · Dec 20, 2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I recall distinctly how Democrats played their own faith cards in the last election

Sure, the Democrats aren't above pandering to religious extremists if they think it will work for them, but it didn't work very well for them (they've never been as good at it as the Republicans) and the years they've just spent in the wilderness has concentrated their minds a bit and disabused them of a few of the illusions that power feeds. It's not much, maybe, but it's the best bet on the table right now.

ordinaryguy · Dec 21, 2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

while the rich are indeed getting richer, the poor and middle classes are also getting richer.

This is true, but the very rich are getting richer at a much faster rate than the poor and middle classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

The middle class is getting poorer by the minute.

No, they aren't, but they are getting richer very slowly, while the very rich are getting even richer very fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

The gap in the distribution of wealth is getting smaller, not larger.
...
The disparity in salaries is DECREASING, not increasing.

Nope, not true. The dispersion of incomes is getting wider. The dispersion of wealth is even wider than the dispersion of income.

Income Inequality Hits Record Levels, New CBO Data Show, 12/14/07

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

I contend the tax cuts made the rich a whole lot richer.

Yes, top income earners received a larger share of the tax cuts than bottom earners, but tax rates aren't the only, or even the most significant contributor to the rapid increase in incomes at the top of the ladder.

Quote:

The CBO data do not provide a direct measure of the impact of these tax policy changes because they reflect the impact not only of legislative changes but also of changes in household incomes and other factors that influence tax payments. Direct estimates by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center that consider only the impact of the recent tax policy changes provide definitive evidence that the recent tax cuts have widened income inequality. The Tax Policy Center has found that as a result of the tax cuts enacted since 2001:[6]

* Households in the bottom fifth of the income spectrum received tax cuts in 2006 that averaged $20 and raised their after-tax incomes by an average of 0.3 percent.

* Households in the middle fifth of the income spectrum received tax cuts averaging $740 that raised their after-tax incomes an average of 2.5 percent.

* But the top 1 percent of households received tax cuts averaging $44,200 in 2006, which increased their after-tax income an average of 5.4 percent.

* And households with incomes exceeding $1 million received an average tax cut of $118,000 in 2006, which represented an increase of 6.0 percent in their after-tax income. That is more than double the percentage increase received by the middle fifth of households. [7]

The Distribution of the 2001-2006 Tax Cuts: Updated Projections, November 2006

Quote:

The long-term effect of the 2001-2006 tax cuts on the distribution of income will depend on how they are paid for, but their immediate effect has been skewed in favor of those with high incomes. In 2006, for example, the tax cuts are equivalent to 2.5 percent of after-tax income for the middle quintile of the income distribution compared with 4.1 percent of income for those in the top quintile. Households in the bottom quintile receive a benefit of 0.3 percent of income. For taxpayers in the top one percent, the benefits are scheduled to increase even more as additional cuts primarily to the estate tax phase in between now and 2010. Compared to pre-EGTRRA law, taxpayers in the top one percent will enjoy a 5.4 percent increase in after-tax income in 2006 and a 6.7 percent increase in 2010.

The Republican campaign

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