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Home > Society & Culture > Politics   »   Oh, the contempt

 
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Old Jul 25, 2007, 02:22 PM
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Oh, the contempt

Quote:
The House Judiciary Committee voted to cite White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten and President Bush's former legal counsel, Harriet Miers, for contempt of Congress.

WHAT'S NEXT: The House can now vote on whether to approve the contempt citation. It takes only one chamber of Congress to approve a contempt of Congress citation.

If approved by the Democratic-controlled House, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., then can turn the matter over to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Jeff Taylor, for prosecution.

LOOKING AHEAD: Taylor, who was appointed by Bush, is supposed to "bring the matter before the grand jury for its action," according to the law.

But the Bush administration, which controls the Justice Department, has made clear it would not let a contempt citation be prosecuted because the information and documents sought are protected by executive privilege.

Taking bets now, who's gonna win? The Washington Post reports the odds are in Bush's favor:

Quote:
The experts cautioned that complaints by Democratic lawmakers about the administration's legal stance are undercut by a Justice Department legal opinion issued during the Clinton administration. It contended, as the Bush administration did this week, that Congress has no power to force a U.S. attorney to pursue contempt charges in cases in which a president has invoked executive privilege to withhold documents or testimony.

Ain't it ironic, the Dems pursuit of contempt charges may hinge on a Clinton Justice Dept. opinion that isn't in their favor? Seriously now, doesn't this congress have anything better to do than "get Bush" and win elections? Was that the "mandate" from the voters they keep speaking of?

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Old Jul 26, 2007, 04:23 AM   #2  
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Steve this is another of those pointless exercise that the Democrats appear to prefer over actual governance.But this is taking it up a notch because the only outcome I see from this is a Constitutional crisis.

Where in the Constitution does it say Congress can hold someone in contempt for not testifying? It’s not in the Constitution. It is an implied power of Congress, just like executive privilege is an implied power of the presidency.

Since 1975, 10 Cabinet level or senior executive officials have been cited for contempt for failure to produce subpoenaed documents. The 10 officials are Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and Commerce Secretary Rogers C. B. Morton in 1975; Health, Education, and Welfare Secretary Joseph A. Califano, Jr., in 1978; Energy Secretary Charles Duncan in 1980; Energy Secretary James B. Edwards in 1981; Interior Secretary James Watt in 1982; EPA Administrator Anne Gorsuch, known as Anne Gorsuch Burford after a 1983 marriage, and Attorney General William French Smith in 1983; White House Counsel John M. Quinn in 1996; and Attorney General Janet Reno in 1998.

The White House and Congress came to negotiated agreements in each case before criminal proceedings could begin. But this doesn't appear to be happening this time ;nor do I think that either side wants SCOTUS to intervene.

So they issue the contempt and hand it off to AG Gonzalez to execute . Then what ? Do they really think he will give it to a grand jury ? They have NO AUTHORITY on their own without a court order;and the Justice Dept .has to order it .So then what ? The Dems will argue that the law says : "whose duty it shall be to bring the matter before the grand jury for its action."

The House voted 259-105 in 1982 for a contempt citation against EPA Administrator Anne Gorsuch .The Reagan Justice Department refused to prosecute the case. The Justice Department also sued the House of Representatives, saying its attempt to force Gorsuch to turn over documents interfered with the executive branch. The court threw the case out and urged negotiation between the executive and the legislative branches. The Justice Department did not appeal the ruling, and the Reagan administration eventually agreed to turn over the documents. Again it fell short of being a Constitutional crisis.

The Dems.could threaten to march the House Sergeant at Arms to the White House to arrest Miers and Bolten (sorta their own version of a rendition program) setting up a potential stand off between law enforcement agencies?

Former Chairman James Sensenbrenner says the Dems can't win this fight .He suggests instead that Congress should
Quote:
"direct the general counsel to the clerk of the House of Representatives to file a civil suit."

This would take it out of the Constitutional crisis territory and would be the basis for a resolution.

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speechlesstx agrees: You hit on the key early, "negotiated agreements." The Dems aren't interested in any negotiated agreement, and I don't believe this really has anything to do with oversight. They want Bush, period.
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 04:45 AM   #3  
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Hello Steve:

I'll bet on the country over the imperial president. Oversight IS the job of congress - or do you think it's just kissing a$$?

excon

PS> A civil suit?????? The country in crisis and you think congress should file a CIVIL SUIT?????? You guys are really waaaaay out there.
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 05:27 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello Steve:

I'll bet on the country over the imperial president. Oversight IS the job of congress - or do you think it's just kissing a$$?

No, excon, its not. Read the Constitution. The job of Congress is to LEGISLATE, not to perform oversite of the President. If they don't like what the president is doing, they can cut funding for whatever they don't like. That is the check-and-balance system that is in place via the Constitution. They also have the power to override a veto as part of their authority. But they are NOT an Executive oversite body, and trying to take that power is a violation of separation of powers.

Please tell me where you got the idea that Congress has oversite authority over the Executive Branch. For a strict Constitutionalist, as you have claimed to be, that statement is pretty "out there".

Quote:
PS> A civil suit?????? The country in crisis and you think congress should file a CIVIL SUIT?????? You guys are really waaaaay out there.

No, I don't think that Congress should file a civil suit. I think they should drop the matter since they have no authority over it. There is no "crisis"... there is merely heated disagreement between parties. But the contempt ruling in question will create a Constitutional Crisis.

Elliot
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 05:32 AM   #5  
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Why is a civil suit way out there and staging a dog and pony show that could lead to a Constitutional crisis not way out there ?


BTW for your reference ;Sensenbrenner's comment is based upon U.S. v. Nixon .
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 05:38 AM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Why is a civil suit way out there and staging a dog and pony show that could lead to a Constitutional crisis not way out there ?
Hello tom:

You got it backwards. It's the president who is fomenting a Constitutional crisis.

excon

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tomder55 agrees: Why ? Because he won't cow-tow to Congress and subject his staff to Congress' fishing expeditions ? Executive privilege has been claimed since Washington but when Bush uses it suddenly it's criminal .
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 05:41 AM   #7  
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Bush has nothing but comtempt for congress and the people of the US. In my opinion he doesn't care what happens to the US or its people, he is a lame duck in office.

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tomder55 agrees: If it come to contempt for Congress I plead guilty as charged
NeedKarma agrees: This is correct.
speechlesstx agrees: Like tom, I'm guilty of contempt for congress. But, I say this congress is who has contempt for the American people.
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 05:54 AM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.yet
Bush has nothing but comtempt for congress and the people of the US. In my opinion he doesn't care what happens to the US or its people, he is a lame duck in office.

So... Bush didn't actually do anything wrong. You just don't like him because he has "contempt for Congress and the people of the US."

Hate to tell you this, Mr. Yet, but even if you are correct, which I doubt, there is nothing illegal about that, and contempt charges against him or his administration are out of order.

Elliot
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 06:05 AM   #9  
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Hello again, El:

When conducting investigations of the executive branch, congressional committees and Members of Congress generally receive the information required for legislative needs. If agencies fail to cooperate or the President invokes executive privilege, Congress can turn to a number of legislative powers that are likely to compel compliance. The two techniques are the issuance of subpoenas and the holding of executive officials in contempt.

The Supreme Court has described the congressional power of inquiry as “an essential and appropriate auxiliary to the legislative function.” The issuance of a subpoena pursuant to an authorized investigation is “an indispensable ingredient of lawmaking.”

Although the congressional power to investigate is not expressly provided for in the Constitution, the framers understood that legislatures must oversee the executive branch. Under British precedents lawmakers were expected to hold administrators accountable. James Wilson, one of the framers and later a Justice on the Supreme Court, expected the House to “form the grand inquest of the state. They will diligently inquire into grievances, arising both from men and things.”

At the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention, George Mason emphasized the congress “are not only Legislators, but they possess inquisitorial powers. The must meet frequently to inspect the conduct of the public offices”.

Being a Constitutionalist, I referred to the Constitution for my answer, and whaddya know – there it was.

excon

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mr.yet agrees: yep, exactly
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 06:25 AM   #10  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Taking bets now, who's gonna win? The Washington Post reports the odds are in Bush's favor:



Ain't it ironic, the Dems pursuit of contempt charges may hinge on a Clinton Justice Dept. opinion that isn't in their favor? Seriously now, doesn't this congress have anything better to do than "get Bush" and win elections? Was that the "mandate" from the voters they keep speaking of?
It depends on the importance of the asserted interest in getting the answers. See United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974).

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tomder55 agrees: yup a civil suit was used then and we avoided a gun battle between the House Sergeant at Arms and the Secret Service.
speechlesstx agrees: And apparently it must not be too important, the answer is right here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/usc_sec_28_00000541----000-.html
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